Bill Weir
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 892
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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The first portion of the NGC/IC Project is now complete. The link provided has DSS images of all the NGC objects and many of the ICs, It also has the most relevent information on these objects. This represents over 9 years of work by, Bob Erdmann, Steve Gottlieb and Dr. Harold Corwin.
http://www.ngcic.org/dss/dss_ngc.asp
Save this link to your favorites. I've put it at the top of mine.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar II ED Doublet
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2007, 171.
So far in 2008, 115
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AJTony
sage
Reged: 04/17/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Hamilton Square, NJ
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Truly a great site!
Thanks Bill,
AJ
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Oberwerk BT100-45 Binos
Apogee 25 X 100 Binos
Canon 15 X 50 IS Binos
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Corn
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 2198
Loc: Sweden
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Wow!
Nice work, thanks.
Cheers
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Canon 300D (mod)
8" f/5 Skywatcher, EQ6 Pro, HEQ5 and Barn door mount.
http://web.telia.com/~u18524382/
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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This a monumental work and already has been on my favorite list for some time. Hats off and a bow of respect for all involved in this project.
Roger
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Chris Graham
mmmm...Haggis
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 4869
Loc: Stirling, Scotland
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That is simply outstanding work !!!!
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-Skywatcher 8" Reflector on HEQ5 with Skyscan
-Orion ED80 Refractor
-70mm Guidescope/grab and go scope
-Canon EOS 350D
-Toucam Pro 2
Astronomy & Veggies
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Erix
Toad Lily
Reged: 12/25/04
Posts: 20448
Loc: Ohio, USA
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Wonderful...thank you very much!
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Erika
10" LX200 Classic, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm, 12" Truss Dob, Orion ED80, WO Binoviewers, 10x50's and 7x50's Binoculars, Rebel XT 350
Having Fun in the Sun!
More solar fun: 2007 July - tracking NOAA10963
Support bacteria. It's the only culture some people have.
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ForgottenMObject
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/11/04
Posts: 3585
Loc: Maryland, US
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Wow...
That is incredible!
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Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces
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jdickson
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/26/04
Posts: 685
Loc: Desert Hot Springs, Ca
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Awesome! What a fantastic reference.
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Joe
10" f5 ATM dob, 20x80 p-mount binos.
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DougieBoy
super member
Reged: 06/12/05
Posts: 125
Loc: New Jersey
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Impressive indeed.
Not to diminish what can be done with this as is, but I'm curious if additional categorization / grouping / searching will be built into the interface, for example, grouping objects by constellation. I would think it would be fairly straightforward if the data elements were already stored in a database-oriented format, which I would guess they are.
Doug
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16" f/4.5 Teeterscope (Truss Dob)
10x50's
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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Wow!
This is an extermely vlauable link! Thanks!
Rodger 
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30019
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Wow, indeed. Bookmarked and ready to use...
Thanks for pointing this out! 
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." Professor Irwin Corey
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10955
Loc: Los Angeles
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Ever since the report of this on Amastro, I've been looking up all my NF's (not-founds) to see whay I may not have been able to identify something.
It'll take me a while (I have quite a few).
I'd like to thank Corwin, Gottlieb, Erdmann for resolving so many of my NF's and enabling me to update the locations of so many mis-plotted objects in the RNGC.
I hope this will notify Steve Coe (I think he lurks here) so the SAC database can be updated and corrected.
What a monumental work!
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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typhus
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 667
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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A definite bookmark for me. That is a wonderful resource. Thanks for sharing.
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Shane
Orion XT10i
10x50 Binoculars
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b_erdmann
member
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Prescott, Arizona
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Dougieboy:
Go to http://www.ngcic.org/oblstgen.htm . There you can do a search (generate an observing list) by constellation, by faintest magnitude, by NGC only (no IC's), etc. Mayhaps this will help.
/Bob Erdmann - Webmaster & Core Team Member
The NGC/IC Project - http://www.ngcic.org
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DougieBoy
super member
Reged: 06/12/05
Posts: 125
Loc: New Jersey
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Thank you much, Bob. A very nice capability indeed.
...and welcome to the forum. Your efforts are much appreciated.
Doug
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16" f/4.5 Teeterscope (Truss Dob)
10x50's
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b_erdmann
member
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Prescott, Arizona
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Thanks, Dougieboy - much appreciated.
We'll probably publish a set of books to be used at the eyepiece containing all of the NGC (and IC) images along with basic information on each object as well. Right now it's just a thought, but we've had a lot of folks ask for something like that over the years. I've obtained the permission from the Digitized Sky Survey to use the images on our web site in a book, or books, so if we decide to do it the ground work is laid.
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Bob Erdmann - Webmaster & Project Team Leader
The NGC/IC Project - www.ngcic.org
Prescott, Arizona
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Jim52
sage
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 342
Loc: Kirkland.Illinois
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 Thanks to all involved! Just added to my favorites! Jim
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Jim Sheehan SVP 8 EQ/Wilcox Rings
Orion 120 ST
Orion Starblast
Cheap 10X50's
2 reflectors,1 refractor,1 great wife!
Only 372 Herschels to go!
"Seems like just one time I'm feeling good...Thank the Lord for the nighttime" Niel Diamond
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jdickson
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/26/04
Posts: 685
Loc: Desert Hot Springs, Ca
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Quote:
Thanks, Dougieboy - much appreciated.
We'll probably publish a set of books to be used at the eyepiece containing all of the NGC (and IC) images along with basic information on each object as well. Right now it's just a thought, but we've had a lot of folks ask for something like that over the years. I've obtained the permission from the Digitized Sky Survey to use the images on our web site in a book, or books, so if we decide to do it the ground work is laid.
That would be a nice field reference. I'd pay money for a Palm PDA formatted data file version also
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Joe
10" f5 ATM dob, 20x80 p-mount binos.
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10955
Loc: Los Angeles
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I agree. I'd pay whatever it costs. It would be THE definitive reference. [I'd throw away my RNGC and similar books].
I suspect that it would help tremendously in the field to help identify a lot of ? objects.
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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b_erdmann
member
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Prescott, Arizona
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We're just in the talking stages at this point, but your input is very informative. I suspect that we will produce the books. Currently it looks like 2000 objects per book (4 per page, 8 per physical page) i.e. 250 pages per book. That yields 4 books to cover the entire NGC (7840 objects). A 5th book with all of the puzzle solutions, and a 6th book containing Steve Gottlieb's visual observations of over 6000+ NGC objects. They would be spiral bound so that they could be folded back on themselves or lay flat on an observing table. I'm also taking any additional ideas as to format, number of books, layout, etc. After all, you folks are the intended audience.
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Bob Erdmann - Webmaster & Project Team Leader
The NGC/IC Project - www.ngcic.org
Prescott, Arizona
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b_erdmann
member
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Prescott, Arizona
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By the way, just for an FYI:
The RNGC (Sulentic & Tifft) lists 793 objects as "Nonexistent"
The NGC 2000.0 (Sinnott) lists 618 NGC's as "Nonexistent" or of type "Unknown"
The NGC/IC Project lists 98 NGC's as type "Unknown/Unverified"
Not all of our puzzle solutions are bullet proof, but all are based upon the historical record and the specif discoverer's telescope and observing quirks. To read the full story, go to http://www.ngcic.org/success.htm
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Bob Erdmann - Webmaster & Project Team Leader
The NGC/IC Project - www.ngcic.org
Prescott, Arizona
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10955
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote:
We're just in the talking stages at this point, but your input is very informative. I suspect that we will produce the books. Currently it looks like 2000 objects per book (4 per page, 8 per physical page) i.e. 250 pages per book. That yields 4 books to cover the entire NGC (7840 objects). A 5th book with all of the puzzle solutions, and a 6th book containing Steve Gottlieb's visual observations of over 6000+ NGC objects. They would be spiral bound so that they could be folded back on themselves or lay flat on an observing table. I'm also taking any additional ideas as to format, number of books, layout, etc. After all, you folks are the intended audience.
Bob,
Whatever the format, the key is to make these books last a lifetime--something I don't think is achievable with a spiral or tab-bound book. A good hard-cover volume can lie flat if the binding is done right (e.g.Uranometria 2000.0). Or, for a soft cover approach (not as durable, but more affordable to some), try the binding on Sky Atlas 2000.0 Companion--the paper is bound in signatures, and lays flat when opened without creasing the binding.
This sounds like the kind of project Willmann-Bell might be interested in.
The IC could be a later publication.
Then....sequence. Constellation order with a cross-reference chart? Or NGC order with a constellation cross-reference chart? Do you also publish this on a CD-ROM? (I think yes).
How do we get NED and SEDS and all the professional (like SIMBAD) organizations, not to mention the programs like Megastar and The Sky, to adopt the nomenclature? How do we get new editions of Uranometria and Sky Atlas 2000.0 to adopt the corrected IDs? Some charters have purposefully chosen to keep the traditional IDs, even though they are/were wrong. How do we change their minds?
Argh. You know you've opened Pandora's Box. Let me know by PM if I can help, but I bet you have a plan.
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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b_erdmann
member
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Prescott, Arizona
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Don:
Making the books infinitely usable and also rugged beyond belief is quite a tall order, but we'll certainly take a shot at it. One of the reasons I use the Herald-Bobroff Astroatlas at the eyepiece is that it folds back on itself, and is therefore manageable while standing, holding it and also looking thru a finder scope and an eyepiece at the object of interest.
I haven't seen the new Uranometria, and how it's bound, but will have to try and dig up an example to take a look. I've got two sets of the original ones (I wore the first set out) but since they changed the chart numbering I lost interest in the new version. (Everything I had done relative to the Uranometria for literally years was based upon their original chart number scheme). My biggest complaint was that the books were hard bound, and couldn't be folded back on themselves. I used to photocopy pages out of them for actual use at the eyepiece since the books were so unwieldy to use. While I like the starcharts, I cursed the fact that they were standard hard bound.
Dr. Corwin and I have had several lengthy discussions about the acceptance of the correct NGC designations for the correct object, and we've basically decided that science is a discipline whereby the truth is sought, no matter who's feelings are hurt. Now that the correct designation is known (in most cases), over time those entities ignoring the correct designations will be viewed as not playing with a full deck. After all, if we were all so set in our ways that we couldn't adopt a more correct view of things, Copernicus would have been relegated to the trash bin of history and we'd still be trying to understand why having the earth at the center of the solar system was the proper way to view things, no matter what problems it caused.
Additionally, Christopher Watson, father and founder of the SkyGX set of star charts (The best I've ever seen - bar none!) is adopting all of The NGC/IC Project's identifications for his star charts....but it will take time for the widespread use of the correct ID's to actually happen. We understand that, but in providing them, we've raised the general consciousness that some NGC designations currently in use are historically incorrect....and Oh, by the way, here's the correct ones.
Anyway, thanks for your input - it's much appreciated, and will be seriously considered.
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Bob Erdmann - Webmaster & Project Team Leader
The NGC/IC Project - www.ngcic.org
Prescott, Arizona
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10955
Loc: Los Angeles
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Thanks, Bob.
I doubt you'll have any trouble getting the amateurs to adopt the correct nomenclature/IDs--it's the professionals that will be tradition-bound, for a variety of reasons.
And since the distinction is blurring, these days, amateurs, more and more, are using professional sources for material, which only makes the proper IDs more important on "both sides of the aisle".
Ultimately, though, truth should prevail (he said hopefully). 
As an aside, the new Uranometria is superior in so many ways to the '80s version that it is essentially a whole new atlas. I have no doubt the Sky GX charts will be superior, but, for now, Uranometria 2nd Edition remains the best printed star atlas.
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15790
Loc: Hoover, AL
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I just checked out the link, ok I'm impressed!
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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ErnieM
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 1172
Loc: Phoenix,AZ
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Bookmarked.Thanks Bill!
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Ernie
DSH8/ Crayford focuser
ST80 with 2" focuser on Astroview mount
7XL,10LX,13t6,17LX,22LVW,27 Pan,TV 32,SWA 26 & 38mm,TMBs,UOs,Sratus,and Viven 8x24 Zoom.
9x63 binos
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2582
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Frankly, I hope it's produced as an electronic reference. You should take a lesson from Sky Publishing's experience with the "Millennium Star Atlas." They will never recoup the cost of production & printing because electronic atlases (MegaStar, Guide, SkyTools) are superior in every way to a deep printed atlas: they go deeper, they're customizeable, they can easily incorporate other media as adjunct resources.
As a four-volume, hard bound set, "The NGC/IC Project," would make a handy desk reference. There's no way I or probably 90% of the amateur astronomy community would ever take it into the field. As an electronic product, you could design it to work with planetarium software; allow users to filter objects by type, constellation, and other factors; give users the flexibility to link to your website for updates on puzzle solutions, corrections and other upgrades.
There's an endless possibility of applications for an electronic version of your revised NGC/IC that would make it a much more powerful tool than any print publication. And as a field reference, anybody who brings a laptop or PDA into the field would be able to use it.
I understand the attraction of publishing a printed version of the catalog. But please, don't make this another white elephant like MSA. Develop an electronic version that can be downloaded from the "NGC/IC Project" website. It will get far wider distribution, be more useful and have a greater impact on the hobby.
Regards,
Bill in Flagstaff
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Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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Bill.
I couldn't agree more. I never take an atlas outside. I just print off the necessary info from a charting software program--a throwaway, need be.
Rodger
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
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cildarith
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 2121
Loc: San Diego, CA
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I pretty much agree with Bill, but I'm a sucker for fancy books as well.
(And I  my MSA!)
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Eric
6" f/6 Parks Newtonian
10x50 Bushnell Binocs
CN Sketch Gallery
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10955
Loc: Los Angeles
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Eric,
My one complaint about the MSA is its lack of DSO's. Uranometria has 3X the number and it's still too few for really big scopes.
Perhaps the upcoming Sky GX will have more, or be more appropriate for field use.
Printing charts (from, say, Megastar) isn't practical if you want to view a couple hundred objects over the course of a night or two.
And laptops in the field are simply too bright for your night vision if you're exploring the limits of your scope.
I've found Megastar to be a good supplement to a printed atlas when objects are Not Found. Then, printing a chart of the NF area and trying again helps a lot. That way, I can confine the chart printing to 10 pages or so.
I love printed atlases.
Have you ever seen the photographic atlas by Hans Vehrenberg "Atlas of Deep-Sky Splendors" ? Not all-inclusive, by my what photographs!
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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cildarith
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 2121
Loc: San Diego, CA
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