thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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I have a 4 1/2" scope. Globular clusters through it look like a bright smudge with some stars surrounding it. If I blink, then I can (for a split second) resolve many stars nearer the centre.
What can you see?
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Pretty much the same thing. My light polluted skies hamper my efforts to resolve a bunch of stars in globs. My 6" of aperture doesn't help the situation either (compared to an SCT or big reflector). I need to get some time at a dark site and bump up the magnification to really see what the 6" can do on globs.
What are your sky conditions and are you using high magnification?
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  Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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My sky conditions are really good. I dont know whether this helps in explaining, but URSA Minor can be easilly made out.
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Are you using high mags? It helps with resolving individual stars.
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Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Have you tried averted vision instead of blinking?
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Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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Not high magnification, but it did almost fill the eyepiece. And yes, I did try averted vision and it had the same effect as blinking (suprisingly).
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Usually Globs "come alive" at about 8" of aperture and up. They are composed of a lot of faint stars that are just out of the ability of a smaller scope to resolve individually. Aperture wins on Globs.
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Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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It also depends on which Glob you are observing. Some are more tightly concentrated than others making them harder to resolve.
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Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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...sounds like I need an upgrade then 
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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We all do - aperture fever hits all of us eventually.
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Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14682
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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In my 100mm binoculars and NELM ~4.0 skies, most of the globs I have seen appear as faint, fuzzy, roughly-circular patches of light-blue light seen against the background.
Some are brighter than others. M13 for example appears on the verge of resolution using averted vision. Some brighter concentration is seen near the center, but no individual stars can be resolved. Other globs like M10, M12, M92, etc, are just "there" and little more. A sad testament to the effects of light pollution.
And yes, apeture fever is a life-long affliction with no known cure. Although if I win the powerball lottery, I am going to relocate the Mount Palomar (or Hale) observatory to my backyard! That might treat the fever.
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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If I ever win the lottery, I am going to buy the (then) non-used space shuttle fleet and the Hubble
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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Kristen
sage
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 408
Loc: Suffolk, UK 52N 0E
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I wonder if that lady in Ireland is feeling benelovent today? We could all go over there and form a queue! (Dunno if that sort of news travels over the Pond, she won £ 80M in the European lottery, I guess that about $140M)
Big ones, like M13 and M3, look like what I have heard others describe as "sugar sprinkled on a black surface".
So, Yup! you need more aperture! I'm sure you know this, but the Dobs at telescopehouse.com are good value relative to imported brands from USA etc.
Kristen
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12" GSO Dob (Revelation 2) with DSC from old 6XTi
Beginner since 16-Apr'05
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donnie3
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/15/04
Posts: 859
Loc: bartlesville oklahoma
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you need a 10" and up to really resolve a glob. i have a 6, 8, and 10" the 6 almost, the 8 some of the larger ones, the 10" yes, with a 10 and 6mm eyepeice the 10" does a real good job. sure would like to have a 14" but size is an issue if your area of observation is small.
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half meter
Postmaster
Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 12517
Loc: Great Lakes
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Somewhat cheaper than the winnings from a lottery (but still $2500 USD) is the Collins I3 image intensifying eyepiece. This eyepiece will fully resolve virtually all 158 globulars right across the face in a 4" scope. It's very impressive on globulars, even in light polluted surroundings.
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Gary
Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
 First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!
Edited by half meter (07/31/05 11:20 PM)
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galaxyman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/04/05
Posts: 1171
Loc: Limerick, Pa
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Quote:
I have a 4 1/2" scope. Globular clusters through it look like a bright smudge with some stars surrounding it. If I blink, then I can (for a split second) resolve many stars nearer the centre.
What can you see?
With my 22" Dob and my 5mm Nagler (501x). Globs like M-13, M-22, M-5 and so on, makes me feel I'm on the starship Enterprise with a voice saying " Captain Kirk we are now entering the globular cluster"!
Karl
22" f/4.5 Dob
12.5" F/4.8 Dob
6" F/8 Refractor
4.7" F/5 Refractor
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So many galaxies, so little time!
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Mike Moffatt
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/13/05
Posts: 856
Loc: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
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I only have two eye pieces: 35mm and 10mm, both by Siebert Optics.
In my home made 6" reflector, mirror from Orion, most globs appear as cloudy fuzzies with a bright center at 34.3x magnification. At 120x I can resolve stars to what I call a granular appearance. Like salt on a dark gray table. There are some of course that don't do that well.
And of course, dark skies make a big difference in how they appear.
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Mortal as I am, I know that I am born for a day. But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the earth.
- Ptolemy,c.150 AD
Mike Moffatt
6" f8 Coopered Newt/Dob
15x70 Celstron Skymasters
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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Matt - that is very similar to what I experience, but with a little more detail.
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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werewolf6977
Lord High Smasher
Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 7442
Loc: Hanover, Ohio
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I've noticed when I crank the mags 100+ on my 6" Achro, some of the globs begine to resolve.
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Pete
6" Apogee/LXD55 - "The Beast"
Starhopper 6" Dob - "Shiva"
Spaceprobe 130 EQ - "Spacey"
Bushnell Fatboy
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ForgottenMObject
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/11/04
Posts: 3585
Loc: Maryland, US
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Globs benefit from magnification, though dark skies help, of course. 4.5" is relatively small for most globs. 6" to 8" would be a nice step up.
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Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces
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Mike Harvey
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 589
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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With my 22" Dob and my 5mm Nagler (501x). Globs like M-13, M-22, M-5 and so on, makes me feel I'm on the starship Enterprise with a voice saying " Captain Kirk we are now entering the globular cluster"!
While I've always loved globular clusters, with the arrival of the new 28" Starstructure, I'm rapidly developing a real passion for them!
Even though my previous scope was a 24" there seems to be a 'threshold' that has been crossed with the additional four inches of aperture. Suddenly I'm seeing resolution into the nuclei that just wasn't there before.
It's a real joy to re-visit all my "old favorites" and see them in a new light.
***and now I haven't yet found a glob I can't resolve! 
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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I love how you say "the additional 4 inches of aperture" so easilly! Thats practically my whole aperture!
Maybe I should upgrade to a 28" scope (I wish).
I do however have plans for a 12" scope - this should be a considerable jump, but I need to save up, and I dont plan to start work any earlier than May next year.
My budget is £400 (I have done a spreadsheet and I am at £390 with no finder - this includes Autostar, eq mount, optics, scope, focuser etc.)
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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Globularnut
member
Reged: 06/30/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Southeastern, WI
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You are right about globs looking like sugar sprinkled on black paper. They are one of my favorite objects, and they do not look alike. I would agree that it takes a good 10" to really resolve them.
I've seen a few globs in my friend's 22" scope, and wow! They sure look awesome. 
Joyce
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cildarith
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/26/04
Posts: 2121
Loc: San Diego, CA
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The brighter globs are generally pretty easy to resolve in a 6" scope. Dark skies (NELM 6.5-7.0) are definitely required, however.
M22 in Sagittarius is probably one of the easiest to resolve into stars, regardless of conditions.
Edit: To answer the original question, here are a handful of examples:
NGC 2419
M53
M3
NGC 5466
M13
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Eric
6" f/6 Parks Newtonian
10x50 Bushnell Binocs
CN Sketch Gallery
Edited by cildarith (08/01/05 12:40 PM)
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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Thanks for that Eric
Joyce - I agree too! I would also love to look through a 22" scope and just look at an object I keep looking at through my scope. It must be amazing!
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Clear Skies,
Peter
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mirage
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 693
Loc: central texas
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In the inexpensive 60mm refractor I use, globular clusters are ghostly spots of light which exhibit a subtle gradient, brightest at the center and fading out with distance; many globulars sit close to my threshold of detectability under magnitude 4 skies. The very brightest and best-defined globular clusters, like M5 and M13, show just a hint of granularity with averted vision - just a phantom texture approaching resolvability which you're not quite certain whether you've seen or imagined.
I haven't tried that 'scope under truly dark skies, though. Maybe this weekend, if the weather cooperates, I'll drag it out alongside a couple of 80mm refractors currently under my care for comparison.
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imber stellarum 10x50 binoculars
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Quote:
The brighter globs are generally pretty easy to resolve in a 6" scope. Dark skies (NELM 6.5-7.0) are definitely required, however.
M22 in Sagittarius is probably one of the easiest to resolve into stars, regardless of conditions.
Edit: To answer the original question, here are a handful of examples:
NGC 2419
M53
M3
NGC 5466
M13
Amazing sketches Eric!
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Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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Onr item not mentioned here is the optical quality/type of telescope used .
A primary requisite for resolution of globular clusters is decent skies: good seeing and transparency, in addition to NELM darkness. Not all globs are created equal--some of them will certainly resolve in a 4" telescope of decent optical quality. Both M4 and M22 come to mind at once. As Ron B[ee} will probably agree, a good quality 4" APO will do more than these 2 globulars, and will probably resolve M3, M5, and M13 as well.
Before I got my TMB 175, I observed for over a year with a Takahashi TOA 130 APO and was able to resolve all of the above globs to some extent, and others , such as M92 and M12 were on the verge of resolution.
Although many writers indicate that globs need magnification, I really crank up to mags > 200X on many of them; It really is a whole new experience at that level. I was always worried that the glob woud become "dim", but as long as I can still see the object, and the seeing permits, I keep going.
I now routinely view M2 and M15 at 200x and 233X; both of these clusters are astounding in only 7" of APO aperture. Additionally, I have resolved M55, M10, M12, M92, and quite a few NGC's into individual stars; i.e.: NGC 5466.
It also requires a great deal of practice at the eyepiece, using averted vision and straining the limits with respect to how faint the object may become until you can no longr see any additional details.
As others have said, aperture really is the key--but don't quit now. Learn to use the telescope that you already have 'till you are sure that you have outgrown it.
I could easily trade my TMB for a big Dob or SCT, but I continue using my APO 'cause I enjoy using it. I LOVE globulars, so I'm really trying to push the scope I already have to the ultimate limit.
Cheers!
Rodger
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
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Edited by RRaubach (08/01/05 01:38 PM)
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Re: What do globs look like in YOUR scope?
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