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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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tcmzodiac
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/11/11

Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT..
      #5532278 - 11/21/12 01:29 PM

If I succeed many wont believe me. But Sue French has seen it thru a 10" and if she can do it, I can do it!
Right?


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Michael Rapp
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Reged: 04/27/04

Loc: Dickinson, TX
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5532286 - 11/21/12 01:35 PM

Someday I too will see it!

I just happened to be reading this from Barbara Wilson a few days ago and your post reminded me of it.

http://home.ix.netcom.com/~bwilson2/barbarasweb/MEyepiece.htm


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tcmzodiac
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/11/11

Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Michael Rapp]
      #5532316 - 11/21/12 01:50 PM

Thanks Michael, a good read! I took my new build...the 10"...out for first light recently. It was a decent night, sky-wise. NGC 2024 easy with no filter...and Orion was low in the East. If I could have stayed out until it was at the meridian I would have tried for the HH.

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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5532387 - 11/21/12 02:30 PM

The Horsehead has been seen through a (H-Beta filtered) 60mm, so I'll believe you, when you bag it with the 10"...

There's even a credible observation of it in H-Beta filtered 8x42 binoculars (LOTS of attention to details in preparation for the observation and the description of it, that's why I believe it).


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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tcmzodiac
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/11/11

Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5532415 - 11/21/12 02:47 PM

Thanks for the faith, Thomas. I know it wont be easy, and therin lies the fun...even if I fail.
I know that an H-Beta filter is routinely used for this object...but I do not own one and dont plan on that purchase anytime soon. I wonder if my UHC would be of any help?


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JasonBurry
sage


Reged: 04/27/12

Loc: Cape Spencer, NB, Canada
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5532463 - 11/21/12 03:15 PM

I've been trying to bag it with my 8", with no real success so far. The Flame nebula nearby is relatively easy, but I'm still straining to see the head.

J


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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5532491 - 11/21/12 03:29 PM

I saw the horsehead in an 8" scope 20 years ago, in Colorado, in the mountains at
an altitude of 8000 feet, broadband filter.

OTOH - last winter, at a location 50 miles from Chicago, where the milky way is
clearly visible, using a friends 20" scope, no filter, saw *nothing.*


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Sasa
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/03/10

Loc: Ricany, Czech Republic
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5532543 - 11/21/12 03:56 PM

Terry, good luck with your quest. I was so far half-successful. I saw not even the IC434 nebula from my backyard in 10" Newton. But one night, I traveled a little bit away from my home to darker skies and I took 100mm ED refractor with me. In the beginning, I glimpsed at 36x with UHC filter a brighter rim of IC434 running just north of Horsehead nebula (B33) to Alnitak. After a while and small break, I was able to trace the brighter rim of IC434 also south of B33. In the place of B33, the rim was truncated and I saw a darker spot in that place. But it was very difficult and I could not determine the dark spot shape. Then I tried to looked at IC434 without UHC filter. To my surprise, I was still able to trace the rim at 33x.

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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5532554 - 11/21/12 04:04 PM

Quote:

The Horsehead has been seen through a (H-Beta filtered) 60mm, so I'll believe you, when you bag it with the 10"...

There's even a credible observation of it in H-Beta filtered 8x42 binoculars (LOTS of attention to details in preparation for the observation and the description of it, that's why I believe it).


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




Small aperture reports aside, there needs to be a healthy dose of reality here. To have much of a chance of seeing it (at least for the first time), a somewhat larger aperture is often required. While I have detected the faint band of IC 434 in a filtered 80mm f/5 refractor (H-Beta filter) at 13x, the notch of Barnard 33 itself was not visible with much certainty. At that power, the thing just wasn't quite big enough to overcome the low resolution of averted vision. Once I got the image scale up to where it might have been visible, the magnification diluted the nebula to the point where it was too faint to see much of anything other than maybe a hint of a glow. One night, a friend of mine did manage to detect the "notch" with my filtered 80mm scope when he was using it, but I never got over to him to see it for myself. Things were a little better in my 100mm f/6 refractor, as at 25x, under great conditions with the H-Beta filter, I could just barely detect the notch (Barnard 33) in that incredibly faint glow, but mainly because I knew exactly where it was to begin with. Had I not know the area very well, I might not have even detected the faint glow of IC 434 in the first place. This does not mean that one can't see the Horsehead in a smaller scope, but it does show that it is a rather difficult task which not all may be able to complete. The Horsehead is somewhat easier in my 9.25 inch SCT (again filtered) and starts to show the "snout" on a good night, but I still consider it to be a bit of a challenge to see in that scope. Even in my 14 inch f/4.6 Newtonian using the H-Beta filter, while it is considerably more obvious in form, the Horsehead still takes a really good night to bring it out well, as much of its detail requires study using averted vision and clear dark skies. Still, I have just barely seen the Horsehead without a filter on an exceptional night, so it is at least possible. Also, if you don't have an H-Beta filter, a narrow-band nebula filter like the Lumicon UHC or Orion Ultrablock can help you as well. Beginners (and even some who have been in the hobby for a while) who try for the Horsehead with four to six inch apertures will frequently fail initially, and that is a testament to just how faint this object is. Clear skies to you.


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IVM
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5532664 - 11/21/12 05:10 PM

Quote:

If I succeed many wont believe me. But Sue French has seen it thru a 10" and if she can do it, I can do it!
Right?




Right. 12 show the well-known silhouette, including the snout (although its underside with this aperture is soft) and the flattening of the top. I haven't tried with 10 but considering that 10 give the same surface brightness at 5/6 the magnification, there should be little difference. (Less than the difference between 16 and 12, which is noticeable by the disappearance of a few nice details in the outline and in the background nebula.) Besides, it is customary to say you saw the Horsehead when you only saw a shapeless notch in the bright nebula behind. For that task, 10 inches should be a safe bet. Just take them to dark enough skies.

EDIT: I meant with an h-beta filter of course. But if my recollection is correct, with no filter the notch is large and plain in 12", although it is soft and shapeless and not much of the nebula around it is seen. All assumes a nice enough dark site, in my case 21.6-21.8 mag/sq arcsec.

Edited by IVM (11/21/12 05:55 PM)


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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5532665 - 11/21/12 05:10 PM

Quote:

there needs to be a healthy dose of reality here.




Absolutely. I forgot to mention the observer (whose name escape me at the moment, so can't search for his website) is a very experienced observer, who has indeed seen the HH countless times, in scopes large and small. A beginner won't stand a chance...

I've never seen the HH, BTW, or even just a trace of IC 434. It's too far down in the mud from here at 55°N.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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GlennLeDrew
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Reged: 06/18/08

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5532755 - 11/21/12 06:13 PM

The first time I ever sought out the HH was with a 4.7" refractor and UHC filter, from my backyard in a small town. It was a tough catch, appearing as only a formless notch in IC 434.

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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
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Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5532782 - 11/21/12 06:31 PM

Interesting articles by Stephen Waldee on the Horsehead Nebula found at his site located at this link. I believe it is Jay Reynolds Freeman that Thomas is mentioning though I am assuming and assumptions, like meat cooked by a 18 year old can be dangerous.

This link leads you to Stephen Waldee's and others research on the Horsehead if you really want to read and learn about it.

Enjoy! It's a fantastic object that is fun to go after over the next several months.


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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5532787 - 11/21/12 06:35 PM

Quote:

Interesting articles by Stephen Waldee on the Horsehead Nebula found at his site located at this link. I believe it is Jay Reynolds Freeman that Thomas is mentioning though I am assuming and assumptions, like meat cooked by a 18 year old can be dangerous.




I was actually thinking about Stephen Waldee! Thanks for the link!


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5533101 - 11/21/12 10:58 PM

Quote:

The first time I ever sought out the HH was with a 4.7" refractor and UHC filter, from my backyard in a small town. It was a tough catch, appearing as only a formless notch in IC 434.




Indeed, the very first time I ever got to see the Horsehead in any telescope was in a friend's 10 inch f/5 Newtonian using the (at the time, early 1982) brand new Lumicon UHC filter. Once I understood what I needed to look for, I borrowed his filter and took it over to my 8 inch f/7. Sure enough, in that scope with the UHC, the Horsehead was also seen, although not as well as in my friend's 10 inch. Indeed, there are some nights where it looks dark and yet the Horsehead is notably more difficult to detect than on some other nights, so conditions definitely do matter. This means that if you don't see it one night, be sure and try it again at some other time. Someone in our club in the late 1960's or early 1970's saw the Horsehead in an six inch f/4.5 RFT (this was before nebula filters came on the market), so I won't dismiss claims of non-filtered sightings in such an aperture. However, narrow-band and H-Beta line filters do make seeing the Horsehead a lot more possible. Clear skies to you.


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Carol L

*****

Reged: 07/05/04

Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5533291 - 11/22/12 01:57 AM Attachment (51 downloads)

Go for it, Terry! I detected it with an 8"SCT and H-Beta filter - surprisingly, a UHC filter also did well. It was a night of above average transparency, too - that's a key element in seeing this nebula.

Here's a sketch done with my 16" Dob - notice how big the nebula is in the 52' fov. We're used to seeing the Horsehead as a tiny little notch in widefield images, but it's not small at all in the eyepiece. Look for a dark 'thumbprint' at the SE tip of a triangle formed with two stars: the left star in my sketch is is magnitude 7.5 SAO 132451 (aka HD 37805, HIP 26756) and the right one is magnitude 7.6 SAO 132438 (aka HD 37699, HIP 26694).

Good luck!!


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RolandosCY
super member


Reged: 01/02/09

Loc: Nicosia, Cyprus
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Carol L]
      #5533320 - 11/22/12 02:38 AM

My friend, just as practically everybody said, the HH is visible in 10". I have seen it many times eith a 10", a 12", and my 18". The main factor in really seeing it is atmospheric conditions. It is a very low contrast object barely detectable UNLESS the atmosphere is very clear. The H-Beta filter works wonders on it, and the UHC filter also helps. My own first confirmed sighting was with a 10" and a UHC filter on a very good night. Then, we managed it again in a 10" without a UHC in a less dark site but on a night with incredible transparency.

Since then sighting of the HH became routine with both my old 12" and my present 18", though the amount of detail seen depends on the atmospheric conditions.

For those who attempt it for the first time, the trick is to keep Zeta Orionis out of the field, and to try to detect the faint band of IC434. The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil. Detecting the nebulosity of NGC 2023 (appearing as a hazy star) will definitely help pinpointing the field. By studying the star patterns in relationship to NGC 2023 will help you detect IC434 even without a filter. I have detected IC434 without a filter using my 4" refractor (but not HH!). A filter certainly helps and is highly recommended.

Once you detect the linear glow of IC434 it will only be a matter of time before the HH is detected. If you are using an H-Beta flter keep in mind that it will take a few minutes before IC 434 first and HH second materializes in front of your eyes...


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RolandosCY
super member


Reged: 01/02/09

Loc: Nicosia, Cyprus
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: RolandosCY]
      #5533345 - 11/22/12 03:42 AM Attachment (77 downloads)

Here is a Megastar map of the area. You will be better off if you use an eyepiece giving you a field of view approximately similar to the one shown on the chart. This field will enable you to keep out both Zeta and Sigma Orionis but allow NGC2023 to be visible. You can then use the two pairs of stars (one pair next to the "snout" and a brighter one to the west) to help you pinpoint the HH position...

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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: RolandosCY]
      #5533349 - 11/22/12 03:53 AM

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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RolandosCY
super member


Reged: 01/02/09

Loc: Nicosia, Cyprus
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5533365 - 11/22/12 04:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



Hmmm. I meant the unfiltered view. Then again, I don't usually check both on the same night. One thing that I have noticed is that IC434 needs some seconds to materialize, but once it appears it does seem similar. One possibility is that the usual practice is to locate first Zeta Orionis which appears VERY BRIGHT, possibly ruining some dark adaptation, and then IC434. Hence the "delay effect" in detecting IC434. The area has many stars much brighter than those around the Veil. Also, the fact that I usually see IC 434 about 20 degrees higher in the sky than you may also play a role.

IC434 (and the HH) are quite a strange case. Walter Scott Huston mentions that IC434 is visible in 60mm refractors. I once (only once!) spotted it (without a filter) with an 80mm refractor. Yet usually it is tough in a 10" reflector. Then, once spotted, makes you wonder why you couldn't notice it in the first place.

I have to admit that the HorseHead is one of my favorite (if not THE favorite) targets, and this is the reason I have analyzed its visibility (or lack thereof!) so much!


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blb
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Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: RolandosCY]
      #5533571 - 11/22/12 09:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



Hmmm. I meant the unfiltered view. Then again, I don't usually check both on the same night. One thing that I have noticed is that IC434 needs some seconds to materialize, but once it appears it does seem similar. One possibility is that the usual practice is to locate first Zeta Orionis which appears VERY BRIGHT, possibly ruining some dark adaptation, and then IC434. Hence the "delay effect" in detecting IC434. The area has many stars much brighter than those around the Veil. Also, the fact that I usually see IC 434 about 20 degrees higher in the sky than you may also play a role.

IC434 (and the HH) are quite a strange case. Walter Scott Huston mentions that IC434 is visible in 60mm refractors. I once (only once!) spotted it (without a filter) with an 80mm refractor. Yet usually it is tough in a 10" reflector. Then, once spotted, makes you wonder why you couldn't notice it in the first place.

I have to admit that the HorseHead is one of my favorite (if not THE favorite) targets, and this is the reason I have analyzed its visibility (or lack thereof!) so much!




I have never seen IC434 as bright as the Veil Nebula. I have seen the Veil with my 10x50 binoculars from a dark sky site but I have never even seen the Flame Nebula, NGC 2024, which is much brighter than IC434, with binoculars. From a dark site in the mountains of western NC I have seen the Horse Head, B33, with my unfiltered 4-inch TV102 refractor. IC434 was very dim but visible and the HH was only seen with averted vision but it was plainly there to be seen in the 4-inch refractor.

Thomas, Phil Harrington last year here on CN's gave an account of having seen the HH with filtered binoculars at the Winter Star Party in FL. Check out last years Binocular Universe article on Orion. He has also shared that story in one of his new books, the Cosmic Challenge.


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BillFerris
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5533871 - 11/22/12 12:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




Setting aside specific surface brightness data, my experience is that the Veil Nebula us much easier to detect than IC 434. The eastern portion of the Veil (NGC 6992) appears as an obvious misty patch through unfiltered 10x50 binoculars. I've never made an unfiltered binocular detection of IC 434. It appeared very subtle in my old 10 inch Newtonian and is consistently visible in my 18 inch Obsession. On one very good night, I did observe IC 434 and the Horsehead (B33) in a friend's unfiltered 6 inch Newtonian. The experience suggested B33 would have been discernible in an unfiltered 4 inch refractor.

A 10 inch aperture is definitely up to the task of revealing the IC 434, B33 complex. The keys are sky darkness and transparency. The nearby Flame Nebula (NGC 2024) should appear obvious and bright. If NGC 2023, the island of nebulosity surrounding 7.8 magnitude HD 37903 is a fairly easy detection, conditions should be right for a view of the Horesehead.

Bill in Flag


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IVM
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: BillFerris]
      #5533997 - 11/22/12 01:54 PM

I'd say IC 434 with h-beta in brightness is like Pickering's Wisp (part of the Veil broadly defined) unfiltered. Both show a little of their marvelous internal structure with 16".

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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: IVM]
      #5534104 - 11/22/12 03:39 PM

I've seen B33 once through my H-beta filtered 8" f/6 Starsplitter Tube Dob equipped with a Zambuto mirror. It was a very difficult observation. The Horsehead Nebula has been a bit easier target through my filtered 10" f/4.7 Sky-Watcher Collapsible Dob.

I haven't been successful in detecting B33 with my 101mm f/5.4 Tele Vue refractor.

Conditions certainly play a crucial role in a successful sighting. On several occasions, when the transparency and seeing were excellent, I've been able to view the Horsehead without using a filter through 14.5" and larger premium Dobs from very dark sites.

B33 was fairly easy to detect through filtered 17.5 and 22" Dobs from a magnitude 6.3 dark site last Friday.

Dave Mitsky


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tcmzodiac
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/11/11

Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5534111 - 11/22/12 03:45 PM

Thanks everyone and...Happy Thanksgiving!
It certainly is good to read these reports. Good to know that my UHC may be of help.Again, thanks for the encouragement.The second DSO that my scope ever put up was the Veil. Id love for the HH to be early in the list too!


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Sarkikos
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Reged: 12/18/07

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5534188 - 11/22/12 04:38 PM

Thomas,

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.




What you say matches my experience. I've seen all three major parts of the Veil, many times in many scopes - 80mm to 300mm - at my yellow zone site. Not difficult at all. I've tried several times to see IC 434 and B33 here at the same site and have failed ... or have given up after trying for awhile, which amounts to the same thing. I have heard that if you can't see IC 434, don't try for B33. Makes sense to me.

In the meantime I've observed about 900 other faint and fuzzy objects at the same site.

I'd rather spend an hour or so observing a dozen other objects I've never seen before than trying once again to see this one object I've never seen before. Eh... Maybe one day.


Mike


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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5534250 - 11/22/12 05:38 PM

Quote:

I have heard that if you can't see IC 434, don't try for B33. Makes sense to me.




Uh, yeah, that makes sense... A lot of it, actually.




Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Sarkikos
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Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5534387 - 11/22/12 08:04 PM

So actually the objective should be to see IC 434 ... and then try to see a notch along its eastern edge. That notch might be B33.

It's on my list, but so are many other objects.

Mike


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Bill Weir
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/01/04

Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5534664 - 11/23/12 12:16 AM

Carol's sketch with that lovely reference triangle is perfect as a guide in looking for this elusive dark nebula. That little angled trio of stars on its western point (left) are always what I show people as a guide in looking for B33. The faintest of them points right at the snout. You can still see these stars even with a NBP, H-Beta or Ultra Block in place. I suggest to people to forget about everything at first and only focus on those stars and where they are pointing. Often that's all it takes to get people to see B33. You have to be looking exactly in the right spot. For a best view it also requires observing it with an eyepiece that gives you an appropriate exit pupil to work with an H-Beta filter. This is from 4-7mm. Match all of this and I've found seeing B33 isn't as difficult as people think. I've had total newbies seeing it from not all that perfect conditions.

Story time;

In early September I was at a star party at a fairly nice location. Late in the night I wandered over to someone I'd met earlier to look through his 16" Starmaster. A bunch of them were looking at the "Flame" as Orion had finally risen above a ridge to the east. I asked if they minded if I had a look for the Horse Head. They all said sure as most had never seen it. Because I knew where to look although it was faint I could clearly make out the dark notch in the faint band of IC 434. Seeing that the eyepiece was a 13 Ethos I asked if anyone had a 1.25 H Beta. "No". So, "I'll be right back" and wandered off to get mine. With the H Beta in place B33 was then much easier to see and showing them those pointer stars all there could make it out although most were having difficulty. Then I started to think about the scope we were using. "What's the focal ratio?" "4.5" So that meant the exit pupil was only about 3mm. "Anyone got a 25-30mm 1.25" eyepiece?" "No" "I'll be right back." and went and got my 30 mm Orion Ultrascopic and plopped that along with the H Beta into the focuser. The change was remarkable. IC 434 had a hard N-S straight edge to the east side and the western edge feathered off to the west. Etched into the eastern edge like a chess piece was the Horse Head completeing the photographic view. My job there was done. For the rest of the time I was at that star party, every time I ran into that scope owner he thanked me for giving him the most memorable view he'd ever had with his scope.

This is not an object that needs magnification as much as it needs appropriate exit pupil. With my little ED 80 refractor from my reasonably dark backyard I've detected it on a perfect winters night.

Bill


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Bill Weir]
      #5534698 - 11/23/12 01:02 AM

The bottom line is: If you can't see IC 434, you won't see B33.

Mike


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bassplayer142
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5534772 - 11/23/12 02:22 AM

Thanks carol for the amazing sketch. I can't wait to give this a go with a near identical setup at home. Likely a tad more light polluted but will give a great representation.

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JayinUT
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: bassplayer142]
      #5534813 - 11/23/12 03:21 AM

Stephen Waldee has an excellent discussion on sketching the horse head located Here. a copy of and explanation of my observation using my XT10 is there from a few years ago. Stephen has returned me to focusing on the details more.

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Achernar
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5534978 - 11/23/12 08:05 AM

I have seen it through a 10-inch, but it's faint and very indistinct even with a H-beta filter. It's easier to see with my 15-inch, but unless skies are superbly dark, it's still indistinct and take real effort to make out the horsehead shape. It's much, much easier with a 15 or l8-inch telescope even from a very dark area. One more thing, if the nearby nebula NGC-2024 of Flame Nebula is hard or impossible to see, you can be sure you will not be able to see IC-434 and B-33 that night.

Taras


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ensign
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Achernar]
      #5535240 - 11/23/12 10:55 AM

I'll throw my $.02 in: having searched for the HH using a 10", I finally did manage to _detect_ it with averted vision on a very clear night under a very dark sky using an Orion H Beta filter and a Nagler type 4 17mm. I think the 3.6 mm exit pupil may have helped.

Does anyone have thoughts on an ideal exit pupil for viewing the Horsehead?


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Achernar]
      #5535245 - 11/23/12 10:57 AM

Taras,

I routinely see the Flame Nebula (2024) from my yellow zone site. I'd say it's about as easy as seeing all three sections of the Veil, maybe even a little easier. The real test for the possibility of seeing B33 is IC 434.

But yes, I'd say that if you can't see the Flame, you definitely won't see IC 434 and B33. Give it up and focus on other objects that make more sense for that night.

Personally, I have very limited time at my dark site - such as it is - and I don't won't to waste time looking for something that I have zero chance of seeing on a particular night.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5535250 - 11/23/12 10:59 AM

Mike (ensign),

Barbara Wilson's link from the second post in this thread will give you a good idea of what you need.

Mike


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5535338 - 11/23/12 11:56 AM

A 5mm exit pupil, ŕ la Barbara Wilson's article, really seems to enhance views of B33, in my experience. Using an ultra-widefield eyepiece is probably not the best choice in this case.

Dave Mitsky


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5535424 - 11/23/12 12:45 PM

For an f/5 scope, a 25mm eyepiece should be about right. I've actually setup a turret focuser with a 25mm UO Ortho, 25mm Kellner and 25mm Sterling Plossl in order to see the Horsehead with my 10" f/4.8 Dob. Still no go. Apparently what's needed is a dark site on an exceptionally transparent night, exceedingly well dark-adapted eyes and plenty of patience. I've seen many, many very faint things at my yellow zone site,so I know how to ferret out the difficult stuff, but so far not B33. I suppose if I travel the 600 miles to my nearest blue/black site, it would be much easier ... except for the time, gas money and effort involved.

Mike


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Bill Weir
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: ensign]
      #5535451 - 11/23/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

Does anyone have thoughts on an ideal exit pupil for viewing the Horsehead?




I already mentioned it in my response but will link to the Lumicon page that halfway down shows the suggestions of exit pupils for their filters.
http://www.lumicon.com/astronomy-accessories.php?cid=1&cn=Filters

Required exit pupil is somewhat dependant on how dark the location is.

I've seen B33 many times from a location where the SQM reading only gets to 21 to 21.31, ie my back yard.

Bill


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Carol L

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: bassplayer142]
      #5535583 - 11/23/12 02:01 PM

Quote:

Thanks carol for the amazing sketch. I can't wait to give this a go with a near identical setup at home. Likely a tad more light polluted but will give a great representation.




You're welcome!

BTW, if your ground is snow-covered when you get a chance at the Horse Head, the reflected stray light can be bothersome - be sure to shield it from your eyes with a dark cloth or something similar. It also helps to make sure the eyepiece is kept fog free - put it in an inside pocket to warm it up, or use an anti-dew strip if you've got one.

Good Luck!!


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Bill Weir]
      #5535585 - 11/23/12 02:03 PM

Quote:

..a location where the SQM reading only gets to 21 to 21.31, ie my back yard.




Bill,

I wonder how many of us would sell our souls to have a nearby 21.3 SQM site, let alone in our backyards.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5535659 - 11/23/12 02:44 PM

Yeah, only 21 to 21.31. I'd have to travel six hours for that.


Mike


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5535999 - 11/23/12 06:23 PM

There is probably no one 'ideal' exit pupil, for B33 or any object. The relevant factors are object size, contrast against the sky and aperture, all of which play a role at all times. For any given object:

- A darker sky allows a larger exit pupil. This is because with more contrast the object need not be magnified as much.

- A larger aperture allows a larger exit pupil. This is because for unit magnification the image is brighter.

A light bucket could permit the largest exit pupil, while a small scope may necessitate a smallish pupil. In the latter case, the lesser light grasp necessitates a higher magnification per unit aperture. The overall dimmer view will necessitate more thorough dark adaption and sheilding from ambient light.


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KidOrion
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5536187 - 11/23/12 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

..a location where the SQM reading only gets to 21 to 21.31, ie my back yard.




Bill,

I wonder how many of us would sell our souls to have a nearby 21.3 SQM site, let alone in our backyards.




*raises hand, whistles*


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Carol L

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: KidOrion]
      #5536502 - 11/24/12 12:14 AM

The discussion on exit pupils has got me wondering something about my two 26mm ep's.

The first one is a 1.25" Meade Super Plossl with a 50° AFOV and a 42.6' TFOV.
The other one is the 2" QX that came with my 16" Lightbridge - it has a 70° AFOV and a 59.7' TFOV.
Both give 70x magnification with the f/4.5 16LB.

According to the exit pupil formula, a 26mm ep has an exit pupil of 5.77 - but i'm wondering if the difference in TFOVs (and eyepiece size) should also be taken into consideration when choosing an eyepiece for the Horse Head. It seems logical to me that a wider TFOV ep would allow more light in, regardless of the exit pupil formula - or am i overthinking this?


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David Knisely
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: ensign]
      #5536571 - 11/24/12 01:49 AM

Quote:

I'll throw my $.02 in: having searched for the HH using a 10", I finally did manage to _detect_ it with averted vision on a very clear night under a very dark sky using an Orion H Beta filter and a Nagler type 4 17mm. I think the 3.6 mm exit pupil may have helped.

Does anyone have thoughts on an ideal exit pupil for viewing the Horsehead?




I generally like exit pupils from about 5 mm to 2.5 mm for viewing the Horsehead. 4 mm tends to be something of a "sweet spot", but it depends on what you want to view. I got a great view one night in my 14 inch f/4.6 Newtonian at 52x (6.8mm exit pupil) using the H-Beta filter, when I could see both the Horsehead and the Flame Nebula at the same time in my 36mm Hyperion Aspheric Eyepiece (about an 80' arc true field). I liked the view of the Horsehead itself better at 79x (4.5 mm exit pupil) or 104x (3.4 mm exit pupil), but it was nice to see the two nebular complexes at the same time with lots of room to spare. Clear skies to you.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Carol L]
      #5536658 - 11/24/12 05:24 AM

Quote:

The discussion on exit pupils has got me wondering something about my two 26mm ep's.

The first one is a 1.25" Meade Super Plossl with a 50° AFOV and a 42.6' TFOV.
The other one is the 2" QX that came with my 16" Lightbridge - it has a 70° AFOV and a 59.7' TFOV.
Both give 70x magnification with the f/4.5 16LB.

According to the exit pupil formula, a 26mm ep has an exit pupil of 5.77 - but i'm wondering if the difference in TFOVs (and eyepiece size) should also be taken into consideration when choosing an eyepiece for the Horse Head. It seems logical to me that a wider TFOV ep would allow more light in, regardless of the exit pupil formula - or am i overthinking this?




Logic says that the eyepiece with the smaller field of view should help you see the Horsehead.

As you say, the one with the wider field of view takes in more light -- from the surrounding nebula and stars. Both eyepieces take in the same amount of light from the area right around the Horsehead, which is tiny and takes up only the part of the field that's common to both eyepieces.

So the wider field of view means that the fraction of light devoted to the object you actually want to see is smaller. In theory, the wider field of view might reduce your dark adaptation and make the Horsehead harder to see. But in practice I have never seen such an effect. Not unless a very bright star happens to stray into the field of view of the eyepiece with the wider field of view.


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stmguy
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5536729 - 11/24/12 07:45 AM

I know sometimes a Barlow helps with contrast, anyone have any thoughts on this for viewing the Horse head ?
Norm


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: stmguy]
      #5536937 - 11/24/12 09:57 AM

Maybe better to keep as much glass out of the optical train as possible when you're looking for something as faint as IC 434 and B33. Just use a simple glass eyepiece with a relatively narrow AFOV that will give you an optimum exit pupil. Makes sense to me.

Probably the most important factor is having skies that are dark enough and transparent enough.

Mike


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BillFerris
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Carol L]
      #5537027 - 11/24/12 10:59 AM

Quote:

According to the exit pupil formula, a 26mm ep has an exit pupil of 5.77 - but i'm wondering if the difference in TFOVs (and eyepiece size) should also be taken into consideration when choosing an eyepiece for the Horse Head. It seems logical to me that a wider TFOV ep would allow more light in, regardless of the exit pupil formula - or am i overthinking this?




As long as the object you wish to observe is fully contained within the field of view, different eyepieces used in the same telescope will deliver the same intensity light packet from that object. In other words, the object will have the same apparent integrated brightness, regardless of the exit pupils and true fields produced by the eyepieces.

Since B33 is a dark nebula, it does not have an integrated magnitude, per se. The Horsehead is lower in surface brightness than the surrounding sky and even darker than faint IC 434, the nebula against which B33 is seen. At about 4' by 4' in size, a magnification of 75X will give B33 an apparent size of 5 degrees in the eyepiece. This is more than large enough for the eye to discern the Horsehead as an extended object. 30X magnification will present it as 2 degrees in apparent size, which is still large enough for the dark-adapted eye to discern and is probably a more useful magnification for small apertures.

With 1.9 magnitude Alnitak just one-half degree to the north, a modest true field of view offers the advantage of preventing the bright star from limiting your dark adaptation. I've found a true field of about 45 arcminutes works quite well to frame the B33 & IC 434 complex for viewing. I used a Meade 13.8mm SWA eyepiece with my old 10 inch Meade Starfinder and a 22mm Nagler T4 with the 18 inch Obsession.

Bill in Flag


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Carol L

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5537083 - 11/24/12 11:28 AM

Thanks for the explanations, Tony and Bill.
I'll definitely experiment with my ep's this winter to see which is best on the Horse Head.


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Carol L]
      #5537178 - 11/24/12 12:31 PM

While I've seen B33 at small exit pupils, it has been much easier in my experience to make out its shape when using eyepieces producing exit pupils of 4 to 5 millimeters. Employing eyepieces with smaller apparent fields of view such as Plössls does seem to make the task easier.

Dave Mitsky


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Starman1
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5537506 - 11/24/12 04:45 PM

1) I searched for it for 11 years with an 8" but never saw it. That, from a high altitude site in a Blue LP Zone.
2) Saw it on first try, without filter, with a 12.5". I was surprised how large it was.
3) An H-Beta filter definitely helps, by accenting the nebula IC434 and suppressing star light.
4) My favorite view is at 140X (42' field, 2.3mm exit pupil) because the contrast is excellent. I was surprised by how LARGE the HH was--perhaps 1/5 the width of the entire FOV. I hadn't seen it before, I think, because I was looking for something much much smaller.
5) Carol's drawing is EXCELLENT.


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starrancher
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5537538 - 11/24/12 05:02 PM

Quote:

1) I searched for it for 11 years with an 8" but never saw it. That, from a high altitude site in a Blue LP Zone.
2) Saw it on first try, without filter, with a 12.5". I was surprised how large it was.
3) An H-Beta filter definitely helps, by accenting the nebula IC434 and suppressing star light.
4) My favorite view is at 140X (42' field, 2.3mm exit pupil) because the contrast is excellent. I was surprised by how LARGE the HH was--perhaps 1/5 the width of the entire FOV. I hadn't seen it before, I think, because I was looking for something much much smaller.
5) Carol's drawing is EXCELLENT.




Excellent tips and explanation on how to increase the possibilities . Between this post and Carols drawing , this is great help in what to look for and what to expect .


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Carol L

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5538216 - 11/25/12 02:32 AM

Quote:

While I've seen B33 at small exit pupils, it has been much easier in my experience to make out its shape when using eyepieces producing exit pupils of 4 to 5 millimeters. Employing eyepieces with smaller apparent fields of view such as Plössls does seem to make the task easier.

Dave Mitsky




Thanks for the extra info, Dave.
The sketch was done using a 32mm Plossl that yields an exit pupil of 7.11 - way too much according to what i've read here. I'll try a 20mm Plossl ASAP - the exit pupil is 4.44.


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Carol L

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5538225 - 11/25/12 02:54 AM

Quote:

4) My favorite view is at 140X (42' field, 2.3mm exit pupil) because the contrast is excellent. I was surprised by how LARGE the HH was--perhaps 1/5 the width of the entire FOV. I hadn't seen it before, I think, because I was looking for something much much smaller.
5) Carol's drawing is EXCELLENT.




Thanks Don! What scope/ep do you use to get your favorite view? I've got a number of eyepieces and plan on experimenting with them ASAP to see which one is best on the HH. And i agree with you regarding the size of the nebula - it's much bigger than i'd thought it would be.


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Carol L

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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5538231 - 11/25/12 03:09 AM

Quote:

Between this post and Carols drawing , this is great help in what to look for and what to expect .





Thanks Dave, this thread has been a wealth of info for me too - it's been quite an educational discussion!


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Starman1
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Carol L]
      #5538458 - 11/25/12 10:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

4) My favorite view is at 140X (42' field, 2.3mm exit pupil) because the contrast is excellent. I was surprised by how LARGE the HH was--perhaps 1/5 the width of the entire FOV. I hadn't seen it before, I think, because I was looking for something much much smaller.
5) Carol's drawing is EXCELLENT.




Thanks Don! What scope/ep do you use to get your favorite view? I've got a number of eyepieces and plan on experimenting with them ASAP to see which one is best on the HH. And i agree with you regarding the size of the nebula - it's much bigger than i'd thought it would be.



My favorite view is the one with the best contrast. Usually, that's my 12.5" with a 13 Ethos. It was very nice through a 24" f/4.5 last year, though.
I guess the point is, if you can see it easily, and conditions are good, it's a nice object to view, and sketch!


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tcmzodiac
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5538497 - 11/25/12 10:36 AM

Im very grateful for the quality of discussion. Many thanks, I am learning a bunch! Now...if only the Evil Orb will kindly leave the stage.....

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Starman1
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5538517 - 11/25/12 10:49 AM

Quote:

Im very grateful for the quality of discussion. Many thanks, I am learning a bunch! Now...if only the Evil Orb will kindly leave the stage.....



Many years ago, I had a t-shirt that said:
"Fight Light Pollution. Nuke the Moon!"


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5538638 - 11/25/12 12:15 PM

In this case, evil may be in the eye of the beholder. I enjoy observing the Moon. There's not much else worth looking at in my light-polluted, glare-ridden, scotophobic neighborhood. But I also enjoy going to my dark site as often as I can.

At least the Moon can give you something to look at when you can't look at the faint stuff.

Mike


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5538651 - 11/25/12 12:25 PM

Same-focal-length eyepieces having differering apparent fields are much like naked eye viewing through paper towel tubes of differing length. The longer tube constricts the field, blocking potentially interfering sources. In the case of ye olde Horsehead, a narrower FOV puts blazing Alnitak out of the picture.

If there are no particularly bright stars about, a larger AFoV can be useful. Particularly if the object is large, and when no particularly offending stars are in the area, a larger 'frame' places more sky around the target, facilitating edge detection. And there is more room for nodding the scope, this technique taking advantage of the visual system's great sensitivity to object movement.

Here's another potential benefit of a larger AFoV, as it appears to me after many years of observing. When using averted vision, while directing my gaze away from the target I seem to prefer not having the field stop anywhere close to my fovea. Strange as it may seem, a vast expanse of sky glow across my field of vision is for some reason better than a sharp discontinuity to black nearby. This might result from the naked eye experience, where the dome of the sky largely fills my field of vision, particularly when gazing near overhead.


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Astrojensen
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5538669 - 11/25/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

Here's another potential benefit of a larger AFoV, as it appears to me after many years of observing. When using averted vision, while directing my gaze away from the target I seem to prefer not having the field stop anywhere close to my fovea. Strange as it may seem, a vast expanse of sky glow across my field of vision is for some reason better than a sharp discontinuity to black nearby. This might result from the naked eye experience, where the dome of the sky largely fills my field of vision, particularly when gazing near overhead.




I have found the same thing. When there's a bright, nearby light source, I get better results with a narrow field, through a telescope or with the naked eye, blocking the light with my hands, but if there is no distracting lights, I get better performance by going as wide as possible, or nearly so.

100° AFOV eyepieces are awesome! And very expensive...


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5538753 - 11/25/12 01:46 PM

The only possible benefits I've seen from wider AFOV eyepieces are that they allow for larger TFOVs and I don't have to nudge the Dob as often.

Narrower AFOVs will block glare from nearby brighter objects. Other than that, I see no benefit from a narrower AFOV.

IME, any other benefit of either wide or narrow AFOV is merely aesthetic or due to some personal eccentricity of the observer ... which pretty much amounts to the same thing.


Mike


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5538853 - 11/25/12 02:31 PM

Here's a quote from a report by a fellow CAS member regarding observing B33 through an 18" f/4.3 StarStructure Dob (equipped with a Paracorr) from the peak of Spruce Knob, West Viriginia, back in October:

A special treat was when I borrowed Bill H’s 2” H-Beta filter and sought out the Horsehead with my 17mm Ethos (133x, 3.4mm exit pupil). The image was surprisingly LARGE, taking up about 1/3 or more of the right side of the field of view. When I shared the view with Dave M, he said it was the highest magnification he had ever seen of the Horsehead and was surprised it held up so well. He suggested I use something with about a 5mm exit pupil, so out came my 24mm Panoptic (4.9mm exit pupil) and he was right. It popped much more easily, with the Horsehead now a clear stand-out against the brighter nebulosity. As I write this I’m kicking myself for not thinking of trying my 31mm Nagler, too.

I can attest that the difference between the two views was striking.

http://www.chesmontastro.org/node/8967

Dave Mitsky


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Starman1
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5538883 - 11/25/12 02:52 PM

Quote:

The only possible benefits I've seen from wider AFOV eyepieces are that they allow for larger TFOVs and I don't have to nudge the Dob as often.

Narrower AFOVs will block glare from nearby brighter objects. Other than that, I see no benefit from a narrower AFOV.

IME, any other benefit of either wide or narrow AFOV is merely aesthetic or due to some personal eccentricity of the observer ... which pretty much amounts to the same thing.


Mike



And if your widefields are flat and sharp to the edge, simply put the offending star or stars outside the FOV and view the object off-center. I've been doing that for years with NGC2024 (Flame Nebula). No need for a narrow AFOV eyepiece.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5538998 - 11/25/12 03:49 PM

Don,

Quote:

And if your widefields are flat and sharp to the edge, simply put the offending star or stars outside the FOV and view the object off-center. I've been doing that for years with NGC2024 (Flame Nebula). No need for a narrow AFOV eyepiece.




You're right. I also do that with the Flame Nebula, as well as other nebulae, without really even thinking about it.

So then, it seems there is no need for a narrow-field eyepiece qua narrow-field.


Mike


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5539110 - 11/25/12 04:55 PM

Quote:

If your widefields are flat and sharp to the edge, simply put the offending star or stars outside the FOV and view the object off-center.




For me, the problem isn't image quality so much as the physical discomfort of looking at the field stop, especially in eyepieces with AFOVs bigger than 70 degrees. This often requires either swiveling my eye or bending my neck at uncomfortable angles. Oddly, it seems to depend some on the eyepiece design; two different eyepieces with the same focal length, AFOV, and even nominal eye relief may be quite different in this regard.

When putting a bright star out of the FOV is an issue, I much prefer narrower fields of view.


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tcmzodiac
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5539228 - 11/25/12 06:42 PM

I'd like to see you folks discuss the merits of fewer EP elements as regards the view. This has been mentioned as being a "plus" in addition to the narrower FOV/excluding Alnitak from same......

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David Knisely
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5539720 - 11/26/12 01:33 AM

Quote:

I'd like to see you folks discuss the merits of fewer EP elements as regards the view. This has been mentioned as being a "plus" in addition to the narrower FOV/excluding Alnitak from same......




With the newer eyepiece coatings and designs, the number of elements isn't an overriding factor in eyepiece selection when going for something really faint. Heck, I often use an 8 element eyepiece with a 4-element Powermate to see faint detail in planetary nebulae, so while theoretically, it may be a factor, in practice, it is less than many people make it out to be. Clear skies to you.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5539864 - 11/26/12 06:57 AM

I only notice an edge to simple glass such as orthos when I'm trying to bag faint DSO toward the limiting magnitude of my telescope. XW's are supposed to have good transmission. I use my XW 3.5 for planetaries, but I favor my BGO's for faint galaxies and BN. I'll have to compare my BGO's to my XW's to see if there is still an advantage to simple glass.

If at all possible, though, I like to keep my Baader Zoom in the focuser so I can dial in the best image scale and perceived contrast for each object. IMO, that makes much more sense than switching out eyepieces all night. K.I.S.S.

Mike


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Starboat
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5548088 - 12/01/12 12:06 AM

I've seen the Horsehead many times now, but never through less than 18" or without an H-beta filter, or great darkness. For first timers, I would stress that you're really trying to pick up IC 434. When you manage that, B33 will appear as a thumb in the pudding of the nebula, the snout not at first apparent. Its not tiny, just faint. Averted vision certainly helps, along with patience. In Oz through a 30" with filter under great darkness, I could see it in all its glory with direct vision, snout and all. This was because IC 434 wasn't just visible, but almost sparkling.

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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Starboat]
      #5548511 - 12/01/12 10:03 AM

Quote:

I've seen the Horsehead many times now, but never through less than 18" or without an H-beta filter, or great darkness.




Yep.

Quote:

For first timers, I would stress that you're really trying to pick up IC 434.




Makes sense to me. And I don't think this is stressed enough. If you can't see IC 434, forgetaboutit. Find something else to do that night.

Quote:

When you manage that, B33 will appear as a thumb in the pudding of the nebula, the snout not at first apparent. Its not tiny, just faint.




Good to keep in mind.

Mike


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BillFerris
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5548552 - 12/01/12 10:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've seen the Horsehead many times now, but never through less than 18" or without an H-beta filter, or great darkness.




Yep.




Just so folks don't become overly discouraged, under a truly pristine sky (excellent darkness and transparency), the B33/IC 434 complex is rather trivial in an unfiltered 18 inch, and is doable in a good quality, unfiltered 6 inch Newtonian or smaller refractor. It's the first observation that is most challenging. But, once you've seen the Horsehead and know what to look for, it is an object that is much more dependent on sky conditions than aperture when it comes to detectability.

Bill in Flag


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: BillFerris]
      #5548668 - 12/01/12 12:03 PM

Dependent on sky conditions including level of light pollution as well as transparency.

Mike


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blb
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5549155 - 12/01/12 05:50 PM

Quote:

...it is an object that is much more dependent on sky conditions than aperture when it comes to detectability.




How True! If you are not at a really dark sky site with good transparency, well you probably will not see IC 434 and if you can't see the nebula, well, you will not see the dark nebula silhouetted against the nebula. But if all goes well and you have the conditions (darkness and transparency) that you need to make this observation, then a good 4-inch refractor will do the job just fine.


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rannoch
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: blb]
      #5550261 - 12/02/12 12:30 PM

May I ask what the best eyepieces size is to have the best chance to see the HH? I have a 12" Meade F/10

I have a 2" H-Beta filter and soon to own a 1.25"

What 1.25" and 2" would be be best for my scope?


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David Knisely
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: rannoch]
      #5550382 - 12/02/12 01:54 PM

Quote:

May I ask what the best eyepieces size is to have the best chance to see the HH? I have a 12" Meade F/10

I have a 2" H-Beta filter and soon to own a 1.25"

What 1.25" and 2" would be be best for my scope?




You will need a fairly long focal length eyepiece to get into the proper exit pupil range to detect the Horsehead. Probably something in the 35mm to 55mm focal length range for an eyepiece would get you there. A good 40mm Plossl or 55mm Plossl might be good places to start. Clear skies to you.


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rannoch
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5550451 - 12/02/12 02:27 PM

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper

Edited by rannoch (12/02/12 02:49 PM)


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ensign
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: rannoch]
      #5550840 - 12/02/12 07:00 PM

Quote:

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper




I saw a Pentax 40 XL on A-mart recently. I have one and like the views through my 9.25 Edge.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: ensign]
      #5550861 - 12/02/12 07:12 PM

Maybe a Titan-II ED 40mm if you can find one used.

Mike


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KidOrion
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: rannoch]
      #5550867 - 12/02/12 07:19 PM

Quote:

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper




An easy way to figure out what you need would be to plug your scope/eyepiece stats into an Eyepiece Calculator that computes exit pupils (among other things). Useful to have!


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blb
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: KidOrion]
      #5551782 - 12/03/12 10:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper




An easy way to figure out what you need would be to plug your scope/eyepiece stats into an Eyepiece Calculator that computes exit pupils (among other things). Useful to have!




It would seam to me that it would be best to learn the formula. Then you could figure it in your head when you did not have access to a Eyepiece Calculator. It is really simple to calculate the exit pupil for any eyepiece.

Exit Pupil= eyepiece focal length/telescope focal ratio

Example: a 40mm eyepiece with a f/10 SCT = 4mm exit pupil



Edited by Erix (12/03/12 11:24 PM)


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kansas skies
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: blb]
      #5555973 - 12/05/12 04:48 PM

Although I've never seen the actual horsehead form, I have been able to make out some structure in the surrounding nebulosity with a 4" refractor from my rural community (yellow zone) by slowly moving the scope back and forth with the manual declination control. I read somewhere that it's easier to see faint details in nebulous objects if the field is in motion and found that it actually does work - Bill.

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Sarkikos
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5555990 - 12/05/12 04:56 PM

Good idea. I've used that trick to detect faint galaxies and see some structure in them.

Mike


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RolandosCY
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: RolandosCY]
      #5567901 - 12/12/12 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



Hmmm. I meant the unfiltered view. Then again, I don't usually check both on the same night.




Hmmm... Finally last night I had a chancve to test my above statement. Under SQM 21.04 (steady!) skies I had The Veil and IC 434 at approximately similar altitude - neither very high. Case is settled: Under similar conditions, in my 18", the Veil (all main segments) were considerably brighter than IC434. My previous statement was gloriously toppled! I guess the fact that by late October I rarely check the Veil and I don't normally bother for the HH until mid December created somehow in my mind the illusion that the unfiltered view of the Veil was similar to that of IC434. No chance. Without filter the Veil was readily visible with direct vision and with structure visible, and in the 31mm Nagler with UHC it became a superbly detailed object. On the other hand, IC 434 was barely visible with averted vision in unfiltered views (provided Zeta Orionis was not in the filed). With the 31mm Nagler and UHC, IC434 was visible with direct vision (including an ill-defined horsehead!) provided Zeta Orionis was kept out of the field. The UHC-filtered view of IC434 was considerably fainter than the unfiltered view of either Veil segment. Adding a H-Beta filter made IC434 more obvious, but still not as bright as unfiltered Veil views.

In another important aspect, I did check the HH visibility with two different eyepieces that gave me a similar true field of view: The TV Ethos 13mm (158x) and the TV Panoptic 19mm (108x), both providing a 0.63-degree TFOV. Using the H-Beta filter, the Horsehead was clearly visible in both eyepieces, but the Panoptic gave a much better, more 3-D view and dare I say, it provided a more detailed image of the HH (the "snout" was more pointy and overall more visible). The Ethos 13 is giving me a 2.9mm exit pupil, while the Panoptic 19 is giving me a 4.2mm exit pupil. The image difference was confirmed by the two astrobuddies who were there with me. So, at least under the good conditions we have had last night, the eyepiece that gave the greatyer exit pupil gave the best image!


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: RolandosCY]
      #5571869 - 12/15/12 12:48 AM

I had a rather nice view of B33 last night through an H-beta filtered 22" f/3.6 SDM Dob and a 21mm Ethos.

Dave Mitsky


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LivingNDixie
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5572192 - 12/15/12 09:05 AM

Quote:

Although I've never seen the actual horsehead form, I have been able to make out some structure in the surrounding nebulosity with a 4" refractor from my rural community (yellow zone) by slowly moving the scope back and forth with the manual declination control. I read somewhere that it's easier to see faint details in nebulous objects if the field is in motion and found that it actually does work - Bill.




Yep. Even just tapping the scope sometimes can make a difference. I want to say I read somewhere that this works because the eye can see things better when there is motion involved of whatever target we are trying to see.


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northernontario
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: LivingNDixie]
      #5572542 - 12/15/12 12:44 PM

I have been after the Horsehead for a few years now. No luck thus far.

I don't like to say I almost saw it....but that was the situation last week. Following all the advice that I have recieved on here over the years, I first found the Flame Nebula. Faint but definitely visible. I then went to Alnitak, and started to follow the faint nebula down to HP 26756, and that's where I loose it. I switched between my Oiii and omega NPB and even tried the light pollution filter, but to no avail. No matter. There are some very pretty clusters and stars in that area.

jake


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BillFerris
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: northernontario]
      #5572569 - 12/15/12 01:01 PM

A true OIII filter renders IC 434 invisible in any aperture. I'm not familiar with the passband characteristics of the Omega NPB. An H-beta is your best filter option to enhance IC 434 and, by extension, make B33 (the Horsehead nebula) more obvious to the eye. A UHC offers modest enhancement. An OIII will make it virtually impossible to observe this object.

Good luck with your pursuit of the Horsehead.

Bill in Flag

Quote:

I have been after the Horsehead for a few years now. No luck thus far.

I don't like to say I almost saw it....but that was the situation last week. Following all the advice that I have recieved on here over the years, I first found the Flame Nebula. Faint but definitely visible. I then went to Alnitak, and started to follow the faint nebula down to HP 26756, and that's where I loose it. I switched between my Oiii and omega NPB and even tried the light pollution filter, but to no avail. No matter. There are some very pretty clusters and stars in that area.

jake




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David Knisely
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: BillFerris]
      #5572651 - 12/15/12 01:55 PM

Quote:

A true OIII filter renders IC 434 invisible in any aperture. I'm not familiar with the passband characteristics of the Omega NPB. An H-beta is your best filter option to enhance IC 434 and, by extension, make B33 (the Horsehead nebula) more obvious to the eye. A UHC offers modest enhancement. An OIII will make it virtually impossible to observe this object.

Good luck with your pursuit of the Horsehead.

Bill in Flag

Quote:

I have been after the Horsehead for a few years now. No luck thus far.

I don't like to say I almost saw it....but that was the situation last week. Following all the advice that I have recieved on here over the years, I first found the Flame Nebula. Faint but definitely visible. I then went to Alnitak, and started to follow the faint nebula down to HP 26756, and that's where I loose it. I switched between my Oiii and omega NPB and even tried the light pollution filter, but to no avail. No matter. There are some very pretty clusters and stars in that area.

jake







The DGM Optics NPB filter is a narrow-band nebula filter with characteristics similar to the Lumicon UHC. The NPB has a very slightly narrower primary passband than the UHC, passing both the H-Beta and OIII lines at high transmission, along with a deep-red secondary passband. I have seen the Horsehead numerous times with the NPB filter, although it remains quite faint and somewhat marginal. The view in the H-Beta filter is quite a bit better in terms of contrast however. Clear skies to you.


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blb
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5572743 - 12/15/12 03:13 PM

The OIII filter will NOT work at all, a UHC filter will help some, I will leave the NPB filter to David, He knows and I have never used one. But let's get real here. NO ONE sees B33, it is dust and/or gas between us and IC434 that blocks our seeing IC434. So what you see is the absence of the nebula IC434 that is shaped like a horse head seen in silhouette. What you are trying to do is see the very faint nebula around the absence of the nebula because you can't see B33. If you are having trouble seeing IC434 you will never see the silhouette.

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BillFerris
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Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: blb]
      #5572832 - 12/15/12 04:25 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say no one sees B33. In my 18 inch, B33 presents as an inky blackness in the form of a horse's head seen in profile. It's an obviously deeper black than the charcoal hue of the sky to the east. This is generally true of dark nebulae. They display a genuine inky blackness in contrast to the naturally lighter hue of the nigth sky.

Bill in Flag

Quote:

The OIII filter will NOT work at all, a UHC filter will help some, I will leave the NPB filter to David, He knows and I have never used one. But let's get real here. NO ONE sees B33, it is dust and/or gas between us and IC434 that blocks our seeing IC434. So what you see is the absence of the nebula IC434 that is shaped like a horse head seen in silhouette. What you are trying to do is see the very faint nebula around the absence of the nebula because you can't see B33. If you are having trouble seeing IC434 you will never see the silhouette.




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