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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Most under-rated DSO?
      #5968383 - 07/13/13 12:46 AM

I'd like to nominate the Crescent Nebula with filters. It is just so cool! It goes from a total yawner unfiltered to a uniquely shaped and textured elliptical jewel in the O-III and NPB filters. You owe it to yourself to find it in Cygnus soon. I guarantee you'll visit it regularly.

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GlennLeDrew
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Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5968396 - 07/13/13 12:54 AM

In my experience, the most underrated DSO, as a class, is the dark nebula. The overarching tendency to see the deep sky as sources of light *emitters* has largely relegated dark clouds to the status of the poor relation.

Choosing any *single* underrated DSO will generate just about as many unique responses as respondents.


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*skyguy*
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5968606 - 07/13/13 07:54 AM Attachment (26 downloads)

Some objects can be "under-rated" when they are situated too close to a really spectacular object that simply overwhelms them!

My favorite example is the relatively unknown open star cluster "Stock 2" which located only 2 degrees from the very famous "Double Cluster" (NGC884 & NGC869) in Perseus. It can be seen in the same FOV with the "Double Cluster" using 10x50 binoculars, yet goes unnoticed by many observers. Even more remarkable, it can be found by following a string of 7th. magnitude stars trailing away from the "Double Cluster" ... and, I can see a stick figure of a man formed from the brighter stars inside this cluster! Unfortunately, "Stock 2" isn't listed or displayed in many of the major planetarium programs ... it should be!


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: *skyguy*]
      #5968614 - 07/13/13 08:04 AM

As far as I understand, Stock 2 comprises the 'upper body' of the Muscleman, not so much the 'legs'.

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Ben Therrell
member


Reged: 10/09/12

Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5968624 - 07/13/13 08:13 AM

Stock 2 has always been a favorite of mine as well. In 10x50's it looks like a the Chinese calligraph for "Heaven".

Edited by Ben Therrell (07/13/13 08:17 AM)


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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: *skyguy*]
      #5968626 - 07/13/13 08:20 AM

Thank you for mentioning this object. I'll check it out soon. This is one reason I love CN.

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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Ben Therrell]
      #5968633 - 07/13/13 08:23 AM

Are you sure it translates "heaven"? Your post reminded me of a funny scene from Big Bang Theory in which Penny has a tattoo on her lower back that she thinks translates to "peace" or something. Sheldon has to inform her that it means "soup".

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Ben Therrell
member


Reged: 10/09/12

Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5968653 - 07/13/13 08:44 AM

Ken,
It has several translations, the best, heaven etc...


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Astrodj
professor emeritus
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Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Missouri
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: *skyguy*]
      #5969804 - 07/13/13 11:55 PM

I am also a fan of Stock 2. I learned of it from Sue French's excellent Deep Sky Wonders which BTW is a treasure trove of under-rated DSO's.

Trumpler 1, not far from M103 in Cassiopeia gets my vote for being the "most" under-rated and often overlooked DSO. Very cool visually in a 10" at moderate powers.


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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Astrodj]
      #5969876 - 07/14/13 01:19 AM

I've made note of it to find. Thank you for your nomination.

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IVM
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5971077 - 07/14/13 07:45 PM

Nice objects. I agree about dark nebulae. Beyond that, I guess, to be underrated it has to be rated somehow, i.e. fairly well known but customarily disregarded as an observing target. With these criteria my submission might be IC 1613. A nearby barred Magellanic-type galaxy with a star cloud marking an "arm", looking through mere 12" very much like the LMC does to the naked eye. Popularized in the Caldwell list, it seemingly failed to achieve fame. I have a crude sketch of it here:
http://ivm-deep-sky.blogspot.com/2012/03/january-caldwells.html


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: IVM]
      #5971804 - 07/15/13 08:22 AM

Quote:

Nice objects. I agree about dark nebulae. Beyond that, I guess, to be underrated it has to be rated somehow, i.e. fairly well known but customarily disregarded as an observing target. With these criteria my submission might be IC 1613.




IC 1613 is the single object that has given me the most grief over the years. This is one seriously low surface brightness galaxy -- don't even think about it unless your skies are seriously dark and transparent. But it's very important because it's a member of the Local Group.


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IVM
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5971989 - 07/15/13 10:43 AM

Tony, I was now flipping through the van den Bergh book and I may be mistaken but it seems that the surface brightness of IC 1613 is within normal bounds for its class. This would fit with my impression that it is like the visible Milky Way and the LMC, i.e. galaxies that don't exhibit much concentration - either because of actual structure, or because of inclination or absorption in our line of sight. So yes, if the sky is good enough to see the "bar" and star cloud with the Tarantula Nebula with the naked eye, or good detail in the Milky Way, then the bar and the star cloud in IC 1613 will stand out too - at a carefully chosen magnification. The trouble is that at no magnification is its overall outline visible in my experience. I can either see the star cloud or the thin bar or a little bit of both, but never the overall halo in which they are embedded. But this is true for the LMC too - at least to my unaided eye. I do not want to mistake the blur due to low resolution at this low brightness for actually seeing the halo. Sorry it's long-winded - I can gush about this object forever

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ensign
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/16/08

Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: IVM]
      #5972375 - 07/15/13 02:10 PM

An observing buddy named Stock 2 the Yellow Submarine Cluster. I readily see the yellow sub in this cluster - with fireworks coming out of the conning tower.

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Jeff Morgan
Postmaster
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Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5972704 - 07/15/13 05:01 PM

Quote:

In my experience, the most underrated DSO, as a class, is the dark nebula. The overarching tendency to see the deep sky as sources of light *emitters* has largely relegated dark clouds to the status of the poor relation.

Choosing any *single* underrated DSO will generate just about as many unique responses as respondents.




Agree. But among that group there is one great example for the Bright DSO folks - B86. Incredible field with open cluster NGC 6520, the bright orange field star, and Milky Way back drop.


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John_G
sage


Reged: 01/18/10

Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5973001 - 07/15/13 07:43 PM

Kemble 1 with binoculars.

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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: IVM]
      #5973064 - 07/15/13 08:28 PM

Quote:

Nice objects. I agree about dark nebulae. Beyond that, I guess, to be underrated it has to be rated somehow, i.e. fairly well known but customarily disregarded as an observing target. With these criteria my submission might be IC 1613. A nearby barred Magellanic-type galaxy with a star cloud marking an "arm", looking through mere 12" very much like the LMC does to the naked eye. Popularized in the Caldwell list, it seemingly failed to achieve fame. I have a crude sketch of it here:
http://ivm-deep-sky.blogspot.com/2012/03/january-caldwells.html




IC 1613 is more over-rated than underrated (it is more difficult than Barnard's Galaxy for example). It has a seriously-low surface brightness (15.9 mag./sqarcmin) that can make it difficult to impossible for many amateurs to even detect with apertures under 12 inches, although on one exceptional night, I did just barely detect it in my 100mm f/6 refractor (and mainly because I knew it was there). I have seen it in a 10 inch, but it takes a good night and a *lot* of study to make it out as anything other than the faintest diffuse brightening of the sky background. With some work rocking the scope and pushing the eyes to their very limits, a little of the shape of the main section and the glow of the patch off its northeastern side may become visible, but detail here is quite difficult. Indeed, the magnitude 10.6 and 10.9 stars that sit in and near the main section almost drown-out the galaxy. This object might be a fair target for larger apertures, but it has absolutely no business being in an observing list like the Caldwell list. Clear skies to you.


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John_G
sage


Reged: 01/18/10

Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5973536 - 07/16/13 03:26 AM

IC 1613 looks like a challenging target for the fall. SkyTool's says it's visible with 15x70s under magnitude 7.0 skies. I'll need to try with my 200mm closer to home.

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IVM
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: John_G]
      #5973828 - 07/16/13 10:24 AM

Excellent observations, David.

John, at low magnifications such as with the 15x binos, beware of those stars that David mentioned. The glow from them can be mistaken for the galaxy. Even with higher magnifications and larger apertures there is a "danger" presented by a fainter double within that group of stars, which may go all M40 on you In fact, O'Meara (whose observing I admire) observing with a 4" for his Caldwell book clearly mistook this unresolved star pair for the bright patch within the galaxy, as his sketch shows.


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: IVM]
      #5973969 - 07/16/13 11:46 AM

NGC7027 is a beacon of a planetary that almost never gets mention due to its modest though easy size. And it has shape and some detail. Literally shines with an OIII. At 70x with my 8" its weird even.

Pete


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JasonBurry
sage


Reged: 04/27/12

Loc: Cape Spencer, NB, Canada
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5974122 - 07/16/13 01:11 PM

One of my favourites has long been the Little Gem PN, near Barnards' galaxy. Tiny and intensely blue-green, with a brighter perimeter and somewhat darker centre. Always low in the sky from my 45N site, it teases with barely discernable detail, hints of uneven brightness in the "ring". NGC6818

J


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5974217 - 07/16/13 01:53 PM

Quote:

IC 1613 is more over-rated than underrated.




I don't entirely agree with that; an object's worthiness doesn't necessarily depend on whether it's easy or hard to see and/or observe. IC 1613 is a very important galaxy, and well worth observing. Just don't have any delusions that it's going to be easy.


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Reged: 04/08/02

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5974459 - 07/16/13 03:57 PM

M55 is a rather impressive globular cluster, especially when viewed from southern latitudes, and the spiral galaxy M99 is quite nice when seen through large apertures.

Dave Mitsky


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ggalilei
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 09/01/11

Loc: Kentucky
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: *skyguy*]
      #5974603 - 07/16/13 04:55 PM

I had noticed "Stock 2" several times by accident while observing around the double cluster; I enjoyed the view but didn't know it had a name; thanks for pointing it out (although I think it deserves a prettier name)!
My outside vote goes to Markarian 421, just a dot of light, but easy to find and see, and you're collecting photons from 450 million LY away. It's also fun to see how it varies in brightness every few months between 12.3 and 13.1 or so.


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uniondrone
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/05/09

Loc: Streetlight Archipelago
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: ggalilei]
      #5974713 - 07/16/13 05:58 PM

I have always thought that NGC 7008, also known as the Fetus Nebula, is quite underrated.

Also, I really like NGC 7510, which is a surprisingly attractive little open cluster in Cepheus, and I think it deserves more attention.


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: uniondrone]
      #5975002 - 07/16/13 08:53 PM

Quote:

I have always thought that NGC 7008, also known as the Fetus Nebula, is quite underrated.

Also, I really like NGC 7510, which is a surprisingly attractive little open cluster in Cepheus, deserves more attention.




Yes, NGC 7510 is quite pretty. I have nick-named it "the Wedge Cluster". It is within a couple of degrees of several interesting nebulae like the Bubble Nebula (NGC 7635), the "Fingers" (Sh2-157), and NGC 7538. Clear skies to you.


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Nick Anderson
super member


Reged: 04/21/13

Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5975056 - 07/16/13 09:30 PM

Some that come to mind: NGC 7635 (Bubble Nebula), NGC 7023 (Iris Nebula), IC 5146 (Cocoon Nebula) with B168, and M 2-9 (Minkowski's Butterfly). All very impressive targets!

-Nick Anderson


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5975500 - 07/17/13 06:47 AM

Quote:

M55 is a rather impressive globular cluster, especially when viewed from southern latitudes.




Yes, M55 is a mighty fine globular that's underestimated by northerners because it's usually seen very low in the sky, and rarely mentioned by southerners because it's overshadowed by the two southern titans, Omega Cen and 47 Tuc.

The truly great far-southern globs NGC 6752 in Pavo and NGC 6397 in Ara also suffer from comparison with Omega Cen and 47 Tuc.

Among galaxies, M83 is another DSO that's visible to most northerners, but low enough so that few northerners appreciate just how magnificent it really is. It rivals M51 among great spiral galaxies.


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John_G
sage


Reged: 01/18/10

Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: uniondrone]
      #5975513 - 07/17/13 07:07 AM

Quote:

I have always thought that NGC 7008, also known as the Fetus Nebula, is quite underrated.




I saw this planetary just recently with my 200mm. It's one of the one's that had me wishing for an 18" Dob.


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Nick Anderson]
      #5976010 - 07/17/13 01:32 PM

Quote:

Some that come to mind: NGC 7635 (Bubble Nebula), NGC 7023 (Iris Nebula), IC 5146 (Cocoon Nebula) with B168, and M 2-9 (Minkowski's Butterfly). All very impressive targets!

-Nick Anderson




Impressive? Maybe astrophysically or via imaging (or some in rather large apertures), but visually, some of these are less than impressive. The Bubble is particularly unimpressive, as you can't really see the entirely of its bubble-like form except when imaging is used. The Iris Nebula might belong in that class, but even then, it isn't exactly a showpiece although it is one of the better diffuse reflection nebulae. Clear skies to you.


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galaxyman
Vendor - Have a Stellar Birthday
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Reged: 04/04/05

Loc: Limerick, Pa
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: uniondrone]
      #5977733 - 07/18/13 11:34 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

I have always thought that NGC 7008, also known as the Fetus Nebula, is quite underrated.

Also, I really like NGC 7510, which is a surprisingly attractive little open cluster in Cepheus, and I think it deserves more attention.




Yes, Ngc 7008 (Tourmaline nebula…see image below) is one of my favorite planetary nebulas in the sky with the 22" dob. It's actually quite impressive in the 8" refractor.

Other DSO's that I feel are underrated would be:

Open Cluster - Ngc 2362 (looks like a bunch of moths flying around a bright light)
Glob - M-56 (sits in a wonderful rich FOV, and stars in the glob resolved in very modest size scopes)
Galaxy - Many of them out there, so lets go with Ngc 4088. In a larger scope, It's one cool galaxy (yes, a future GL video object)



Karl
E.O.H.


Chesmont Astronomical Society - www.chesmontastro.org
Galaxy Log - http://www.youtube.com/user/GalaxyLog4565?feature=mhee
Galaxy Log Blog - http://galaxylog.blogspot.com/
HASB - http://www.haveastellarbirthday.com
Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob
Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob
TMB/APM 8" f/9 Refractor”The Beast”. One great DEEP SKY achro
ES 6" f/6.5 achro. Good one
Celestron Omni XLT 102 refractor.
Celestron 10x60mm Binos


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ThreeD
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/08

Loc: Sacramento suburbs
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: galaxyman]
      #5978140 - 07/18/13 03:25 PM

NGC4656

It's not like it's a big bright object that is overlooked but it is unusual enough that I'm surprised it doesn't get mentioned more. I observed it a little more than two years ago and I definitely need to make sure I visit it next year. Hmmm... I think I might give it a bit of time in a few weeks even though it will be only be at about 30 degrees and slipping away at the end of twilight.


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KidOrion
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/07/07

Loc: Carbondale, IL
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: ThreeD]
      #5978678 - 07/18/13 09:03 PM

NGC 2362 in Canis Major. The double star h3945 just north of it is the most underrated double in the sky, too.

Edited by KidOrion (07/18/13 09:09 PM)


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Fuzzyguy
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/21/11

Loc: Colorado/Kansas
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: KidOrion]
      #5982203 - 07/20/13 11:38 PM

I don't know how underrated it is, but I like MEL 111 in Coma Berenices. I can see it naked eye from my fairly dark backyard, but in my 15X70 binoculars, it reminds me of a mosquito looking head on at me. Maybe it's appropriate though, cause the time of year it starts clearing my trees in the evening, is usually the start of mosquito season!

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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Fuzzyguy]
      #5982694 - 07/21/13 10:19 AM

I almost never hear anyone talk about IC4665, an open cluster in Ophiuchus. It is one of my favorite binocular targets because it is bright and resolves into stars with my 10x50's. This cluster is to large for the field-of-view of all but wide field telescopes or binoculars.

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GlennLeDrew
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Reged: 06/18/08

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: blb]
      #5982830 - 07/21/13 11:33 AM

Buddy,
IC4665 would seem to be evidence of the miniscule FOVs employed by the Herschels that this oh-so-obvious cluster would be overlooked. This is a seasonal favourite of mine, to be enjoyed every summer through my binos. And add to it the nearby wide pair of clusters NGC 6633 and IC 4756 (the latter being another missed cluster in the vein of IC 4665.) All three are naked eye fuzzies under dark skies.


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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5982909 - 07/21/13 12:12 PM

Quote:

All three are naked eye fuzzies under dark skies.



Yep! I agree. Whenever this portion of the sky is visible, It is binocular seasion, much like spring is like galaxy seasion is for telescopes.


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davebuechler
professor emeritus
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Reged: 08/21/11

Loc: Red River Gorge Kentucky
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: blb]
      #5997415 - 07/29/13 10:31 PM

Quote:

Some objects can be "under-rated" when they are situated too close to a really spectacular object that simply overwhelms them!




M92 is a beauty and frequently overshadowed by M13. I will vote for this easy target.


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azure1961p
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: davebuechler]
      #5997430 - 07/29/13 10:40 PM

I like 92s more intense core.

Pete


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wags1
member
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Reged: 05/23/13

Loc: PA, USA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5999276 - 07/30/13 11:18 PM

I was bouncing between M92 and M13 last night for about an hour or so. M92 gets my vote!

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rockstarbill
sage


Reged: 07/16/13

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: wags1]
      #5999556 - 07/31/13 05:43 AM

I will go with an easy to see object here. Mizar. Bright easy to see quad in the Ursa Major constellation. Beautiful to view alongside the Alcor binary, but not as thrilling to most as others are, and often disregarded since the dipper is not that thrilling to most.

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wags1
member
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Reged: 05/23/13

Loc: PA, USA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: rockstarbill]
      #5999659 - 07/31/13 08:19 AM

Mizar and Deneb are my 2 most viewed objects since I typically use them this time of year for alligning my go-to. That said, they probably don't qualify for this questiions as they really aren't DSO's.

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MrJones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/15/10

Loc: Indiana
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: wags1]
      #6000032 - 07/31/13 01:16 PM

Melotte 111 and NGC 6910. The first is one of the best small binocular objects and the second a small open cluster that always impresses me and guests with its beautiful center.

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rockstarbill
sage


Reged: 07/16/13

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: wags1]
      #6000860 - 08/01/13 01:10 AM

Quote:

Mizar and Deneb are my 2 most viewed objects since I typically use them this time of year for alligning my go-to. That said, they probably don't qualify for this questiions as they really aren't DSO's.




That depends on your perspective of what is Deep Space, and what isn't. If I cant travel to it before I die (in theory, not in actuality) I consider that deep enough. At 80+ light years (for Mizar and Alcor) and over 1425 light years for Deneb (some say up to 7000), they both qualify in my book.

As an aside: This is what I meant when I said that people do not find the dipper to be all that thrilling...

Edited by rockstarbill (08/01/13 01:18 AM)


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wags1
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Reged: 05/23/13

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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: rockstarbill]
      #6001166 - 08/01/13 09:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Mizar and Deneb are my 2 most viewed objects since I typically use them this time of year for alligning my go-to. That said, they probably don't qualify for this questiions as they really aren't DSO's.




That depends on your perspective of what is Deep Space, and what isn't. If I cant travel to it before I die (in theory, not in actuality) I consider that deep enough. At 80+ light years (for Mizar and Alcor) and over 1425 light years for Deneb (some say up to 7000), they both qualify in my book.

As an aside: This is what I meant when I said that people do not find the dipper to be all that thrilling...




The traditional definition of DSO's includes things like Star Clusters, Nebulea, and Galaxies. See here:

DSO Definition


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: wags1]
      #6001422 - 08/01/13 02:27 PM

Quote:

Mizar and Deneb are my 2 most viewed objects since I typically use them this time of year for alligning my go-to. That said, they probably don't qualify for this questiions as they really aren't DSO's.




Double stars are often considered to be DSOs -- opinions vary. For whatever reason, individual stars usually aren't. Make sense? Probably not, but there it is.

Including double stars makes sense, since the line between a multiple star and a small star cluster is impossible to draw. Consider, for instance, the Trapezium in Orion.

Technically, it's classified neither as a multiple star nor as a cluster but as a "trapezium system." (Yes, the entire category is named after this one example.) But it makes perfect sense to treat it either as a multiple star or a cluster.


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wags1
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6001496 - 08/01/13 03:04 PM

agreed...the definition of DSO's is sort of like some DSO's...fuzzy...

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ensign
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: wags1]
      #6003148 - 08/02/13 12:39 PM

The definition of DSO varies widely. NASA has a Deep Space Network that is, obviously, strictly interplanetary. I guess one definition of deep space is "Where no man has gone before . . . " Or the more politically correct "Where no one has gone before . . ."

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rockstarbill
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Re: Most under-rated DSO? new [Re: ensign]
      #6004178 - 08/03/13 12:22 AM

Quote:

The definition of DSO varies widely. NASA has a Deep Space Network that is, obviously, strictly interplanetary. I guess one definition of deep space is "Where no man has gone before . . . " Or the more politically correct "Where no one has gone before . . ."




Well said!


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