Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14682
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Generally, I find that many of the observing reports on CN come from observers under NELM 5 to 6 skies. Sometimes I see reports from lucky observers who stargaze from NELM 6.5+ skies .... (I'm envious just thinking about it) ... but I see on the Bortle Scale (and other sources) that skies can approach a theoretical limit of NELM 8! ...
So my question is this, what is the DARKEST NELM you have observed from? Is there anyone out there who has seen a shadow from the Milky Way? Just how DARK is DARK?
FWIW, the "darkest" sky I have observed from is NELM ~ 4.5 ... What got me thinking about this was a documentary I watched last night about the Masai tribesmen of SE Africa. I bet they get some dark skies!
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
Edited by Glassthrower (05/07/06 10:23 AM)
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thelittleman
Vendor (Peter's Actions)
   
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 4077
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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I am not sure, but my back garden's skies are around 6, but I think on a good night it can be a little higher (I am only estimating by looking at the faintest stars I can see). The darkest skies I have ever seen have been much darker - I think the darkest I have ever seen has been around 7, 7+, but these were in the middle of nowhere!
-------------------- Clear Skies,
Peter
Photoshop Tutorials and Actions! New actions now added
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http://peter-morris.magix.net/
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smitty
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 776
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Naked eye observing from the deck of a combat darkened ship in the middle of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.
Limiting magnitudes? How about being lost under the stars for 20 minutes before you can identify something like the Big Dipper! This is why I cannot accept someone's description of "perfect" observing conditions, I've been spoiled
-------------------- Steven "Saratoga Smitty" Smith
10" & 16" Dobsonians
Coronado PST
10x40 & 11x70 "opera glasses"
2 ton eyepiece case
http://www.saratogamuseum.org
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Alvin Huey
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/18/05
Posts: 1533
Loc: NorCal
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My experience of darkest skies ever is probably at Bodie and TSP, NELM is about 8.0. I've personally not experienced 8.0 skies at TSP, but 7.8, but they have potential.
My usual observing site averages 6.5. I observe in the Sierras about 60 miles east of Sacramento, CA.
-------------------- Clear Skies,
Alvin #26
22" f/4.1 reflector, Takahashi TOA-130S on AP1200GTO (just sold), 30" f/4.3 StarMaster and Antares 6" f/6.5 on Orion SVP
FaintFuzzies | TAC | TAC-Sac
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JayKSC
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 753
Loc: Florida
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I observe almost always from my backyard. This is especially true after traveling an hour to a dark site with a friend for some astroimaging only to find thick clouds each of three trips! Anyways, my backyard skies are usually around magnitude 5.5, except to the southeast where they're probably mag. 4-ish (they get darker when the ballfield lights go off). One night, though, I was surprised to find I could glimpse stars to mag. 6.0 overhead! 
Jay KSC FL
-------------------- Refractor manic.
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stevecoe
   
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2129
Loc: Arizona, USA
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The Saguaro Astronomy Club has a spot near the little town of Happy Jack, Arizona. It is 120 miles from Phoenix and 35 miles from Flagstaff. We call it "5 Mile Meadow" because it is 5 miles off the pavement on a well maintained dirt road.
My observing buddy and I use a system of rating the night that does not include depending on star magnitudes because we go looking for diffuse objects and star magnitudes are not a good predictor of how good the night is when observing faint detail in nebulae or galaxies.
We have rated this observing spot 9 out of 10 for transparency two times and 10 out of 10 once. The Milky Way is bright and wide with plenty of detail in the Rift. There is a faint outer loop of the Milky Way that goes from Lyra into Libra, when I can see that feature, it is a great night.
I have no doubt that this location has a limiting magnitude in the 7's, and one time I might rate that so we will have that number. But, then I would have to stop observing deep sky goodies under those fabulous skies to try and nail down a number and I have not wanted to do that yet.
I hope for all of you that you will make a trip to Arizona some time and get a chance to go observe with us. We generally go up in June and Sept.
Clear Skies to us all; Steve Coe
-------------------- 150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2956
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Darkest sky? Provence in France. How dark? Can not tell, i could not see M13 with the naked eye. But what makes the big difference over there is that the sky is much clearer then in Belgium or the Netherlands. And that you see very good. The first night out there i saw so many stars i took me a while too see the constellations good...i was stunned...i will neve forget that night, for as long as i live...
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
   
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 6539
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.38 X 90....
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From my backyard...4 days after Katrina. Mandeville, and the whole region for that matter, was 100% without electricity. The Milky Way was as bright as I've seen it in a LONG time. Of all of the objects I saw that night, M13 will remain as the most stunning object I've seen in my short tenure at this hobby. Absolutely breathtaking.
David
-------------------- A few scopes and mounts.
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
Life expectancies would go WAY up if green vegetables smelled like bacon...
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6778
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Generally, I find that many of the observing reports on CN come from observers under NELM 5 to 6 skies. Sometimes I see reports from lucky observers who stargaze from NELM 6.5+ skies .... (I'm envious just thinking about it) ... but I see on the Bortle Scale (and other sources) that skies can approach a theoretical limit of NELM 8! ...
So my question is this, what is the DARKEST NELM you have observed from? Is there anyone out there who has seen a shadow from the Milky Way? Just how DARK is DARK?
FWIW, the "darkest" sky I have observed from is NELM ~ 4.5 ... What got me thinking about this was a documentary I watched last night about the Masai tribesmen of SE Africa. I bet they get some dark skies!
MikeG
The very darkest skies I have experienced personally were at the Nebraska Star Party, where a few people have gone to magnitude 8.0. With my 50-year old eyes, I can't go much fainter than about 7.8 or so anymore. My rural "dark sky" site about 15 miles from my home in southeastern Nebraska has a typical ZLM under clear moonless skies of from 6.4 to 6.8, although there have been a few times where I have seen stars as faint as 7.0 from there with averted vision. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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Cygnus_x1
Sketcher Extraordinaire
   
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 2119
Loc: Isle of Wight, England
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I do most of my observing from my back garden, and on a good night the NELM is around 6.1. The DARKEST skies I have observed have been at the Texas Star Party this year, the NELM was easily greater than 7.0 - in fact I overheard someone say they saw down to mag 9! I have also observed in very, very dark skies in the Australian Outback which were comparable to the TSP sky.
-------------------- Visual Deep Sky Observing
Visual Astronomy blog
Fotopic astronomy gallery My photos from astronomy events, etc
8x42 binoculars 'light thimble'
4" refractor and 4" Meade SCT 'light cups'
12" Dobsonian 'light bucket'
Various TeleVue eyepieces
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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As I've mentioned a few times Mike, I do most of my observing from my front yard. I live on a rural road, no street lights within a half mile and houses are well separated by trees. Most of the time my yard is about 5.0-5.4, but occasionally see to mag 5.6-5.8, maybe 15-20 times a year.
Three years ago on a backpacking trip to Mt Katahdin in Maine I packed a tripod and 15x70s. I observed under mag 6.7-6.8 skies. That was the best ever.
Two years ago on a trip to the Adirondaks, I saw about mag 6.5.
At my brother's house about 15 miles north of Manchecter NH, I see about mag 6.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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novbabies
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 15678
Loc: Northern Georgia!
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Quote:
Darkest sky? Provence in France. How dark? Can not tell, i could not see M13 with the naked eye. But what makes the big difference over there is that the sky is much clearer then in Belgium or the Netherlands. And that you see very good. The first night out there i saw so many stars i took me a while too see the constellations good...i was stunned...i will neve forget that night, for as long as i live...
So if one COULD see easily M13 naked eye, and all of the stars in UMi, what would the NELM theoretically be?
-------------------- Good Seeing!
Mark
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
VERY old Edmund 6" f/8 reflector
Assorted binoculars
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
   
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10955
Loc: Los Angeles
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Hmm.
Well, the faintest star seen with the naked eye is usually a function of the acuity of vision of the observer. Under the very same skies, I've participated in tests where the scatter in faintness seen was almost 2 magnitudes!.
It is the reason I bought a Unihedron Sky Quality Meter--to remove the subjective evaluation of NELM.
I think the best way to rate the night is to use star clusters with known magnitudes to seek the faintest star seeable in your scope. So far, I have just seen a star of magnitude 16.44 with my 12.5, but probably will be able to go deeper. This "back-translates" to well better than magnitude 7 visually, yet I cannot see, nor have even seen (to my knowledge) a star fainter than 6.8 with the naked eye.
I have observed in a sky DARKER than the recent magnitude 21.69 sky I measured at Mt. Pinos during exceptional conditions. And even in that darker sky, I could not see a star fainter than 6.8. I could see about 40% of all the Messier objects with the naked eye, yet I could not see a fainter star.
But in that darkest sky, the zodiacal light extended up from both horizons (appearing yellowish in color) to almost meet at the Gegenschein (which appeared like a thin cloud in the sky), and the rising Milky Way looked like storm clouds coming in. The bulge in the Milky Way extended PAST the two brightest stars in Libra, and the Milky Way in Cygnus was grainy and covered with literally hundreds of stars. It was so dark, Jupiter and Saturn cast shadows, as did the Milky Way. The "Dark Horse" section of dark nebulae in the Milky way's bulge looked dark and painted on as if with a paintbrush. M11 was a bright, naked-eye, spot in the Scutum starcloud, and most meteors were so bright as to be painful and deleterious to one's night vision. On that night, my 8" SCT (standard coatings) reached magnitude 15.6 in a couple test clusters.
I don't expect to see many more nights that dark in the rest of my life. Tom Polakis said to me "It's as dark as it gets on Earth." And since he'd travelled to many of the world's darkest places, I took him at his word. I've never seen it as dark since.
A new conversion formula of SQM measurements to NELM means my recent measurement of 21.69 translates to magnitude 6.9 at the zenith. That formula says a magnitude 22.0 sky (the faintest it can get on Earth) would be 7.06 NELM.
If people have legitimately seen stars to magnitude 8, and I have no reason to doubt that some eagle-eyed individuals have, then the formula needs to be revised. In that case, my recent measurement of 21.69 translates to magnitude 7.85 NELM.
I have no hope of ever seeing a star that faint with my naked eye, but that should have been the limit on that night.
-------------------- Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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David A Rodger
sage
Reged: 08/12/03
Posts: 393
Loc: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
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I had the privilege back in 1978 of visiting three of the observatory complexes in northern Chile, while working on a show about the southern sky for the HR MacMillan Planetarium here in Vancouver. It was my first and, to date, only experience under the southern sky, and it remains to this day the darkest sky I have ever seen.
My fondest memory is of propping myself up against a rock at Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory at night, with nothing at hand but my 7X50 binoculars, and showing southern constellations to the professional astronomers who walked by to their various telescopes. Several of them couldn't pick out the Cross or Leo or Canopus and one had never seen the big dipper which, in April, was as high as it ever gets at that latitude, positioned low in the north.
You will note the irony. Some of those professional astronomers came here regularly. The southern sky was new to me yet I already knew it better than most of them did.
On the other hand they might have had the last laugh on me. Later that night was I advised of the presence, in that part of the Andes, of the deadly vinchuca beetle. It was the last time I sat on the ground at Cerro Tololo!
DAR
Edited by David A Rodger (05/07/06 10:07 PM)
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novbabies
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 15678
Loc: Northern Georgia!
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The darkest skies I ever looked into - and they put planetarium skies to shame!!! - were at the top of Mount Haleakala on Maui in 2000 at 3:30AM atound July 21. There was a moon - I thnk waning just past last quarter - and the clouds were BELOW where we were. It was about 40 degrees, but the wind was HOWLING so it felt much colder. Still, couldn't believe how MANY stars I could see...
-------------------- Good Seeing!
Mark
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
VERY old Edmund 6" f/8 reflector
Assorted binoculars
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jdickson
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/26/04
Posts: 685
Loc: Desert Hot Springs, Ca
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Yup me too. Observed the sky on a darkened ship in the middle of Pacific,Indian,Atlantic oceans. Wow.
-------------------- Joe
10" f5 ATM dob, 20x80 p-mount binos.
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Alvin Huey
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/18/05
Posts: 1533
Loc: NorCal
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I'd bet that would be awesome!
-------------------- Clear Skies,
Alvin #26
22" f/4.1 reflector, Takahashi TOA-130S on AP1200GTO (just sold), 30" f/4.3 StarMaster and Antares 6" f/6.5 on Orion SVP
FaintFuzzies | TAC | TAC-Sac
Edited by Alvin Huey (05/08/06 07:51 PM)
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6272
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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My darkest skies were at Anderson Mesa near Flagstaff, Arizona, followed by New Mexico Skies near Cloudcroft, New Mexico, and Huatajata, Bolivia (altitude 12,500 feet). On the East Coast, Spruce Knob, West Virginia, and Cherry Springs State Park, Pennsylvania, have been my darkest observing sites.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Cygnus_x1
Sketcher Extraordinaire
   
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 2119
Loc: Isle of Wight, England
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I've observed from a ship at sea, when I was in the Royal Navy in the late 80's/early 90's, and also from passenger ferries more recently - whenever I go on a night crossing over the Channel I always do some binocular stuff if clear (you can usually find a darkened area on board a ship). I used to pinch the binoculars from the bridge on my navy ship at night and look at the Milky Way, that is what rekindled my latent childhood interest in astronomy.
-------------------- Visual Deep Sky Observing
Visual Astronomy blog
Fotopic astronomy gallery My photos from astronomy events, etc
8x42 binoculars 'light thimble'
4" refractor and 4" Meade SCT 'light cups'
12" Dobsonian 'light bucket'
Various TeleVue eyepieces
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stevecoe
   
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2129
Loc: Arizona, USA
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"The DARKEST skies I have observed have been at the Texas Star Party this year, the NELM was easily greater than 7.0 - in fact I overheard someone say they saw down to mag 9!"
OK, here is where I am going to start getting into trouble with the moderator. I am going to yell BULL. I am willing to be OK with folks who say they can see stars into the 7th magnitude range. If they are over 40 years old, I start to flinch. Under terrifice skies, what I would rate at 9 out of 10 or even a 10, I suppose a small portion of younger observers might reach magnitude 8. When people start to say that they can see magnitude 9 with the naked eye, I am not going to believe it, ever. Simple as that.
This is beyond 6 sigma removed from the centerline of human vision and I used to observe with one of the leading experts in the world on night vision. In several trials with a very experienced group, we never saw a star fainter than magnitude 7.2 with the naked eye and we tried from some dark spots long ago when light pollution was 50% of what it is today.
Sorry, magnitude 9 with no optical aid, ain't happening;
Steve Coe
-------------------- 150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
Edited by StarAngel (05/09/06 07:56 AM)
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