Sarkikos
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Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: drollere]
#5291606 - 06/27/12 01:26 PM
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Bruce,
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but it's an *odd* thing for eyes to do, and we can see the oddness -- for example, in the illusion that we can see many very faint stars in the sky areas where there are none. we're just looking at the texture of our own retina.
I've seen this often at my dark site.
I see something similar after I've been staring at a bright planet or the Moon for most of an hour or longer. Suddenly I'll see a fine reticulated or pointillistic pattern at the center of my field of vision. Then I know it's definitely time to rest my eyes for a little while. Or maybe switch to the other eye if I'm not using the binoviewer.
Mike
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drollere
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/02/10
Loc: sebastopol, california
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Sarkikos]
#5293439 - 06/28/12 03:10 PM
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I am a layman amateur astronomer. I'm not an optical expert or any kind of engineer. I have no idea what "log response range" means. I'm not sure what you mean by "response limits at the high and low end." The analogy of "shoulder" and "knee" does not make it clearer. Sorry. I doubt if 10% of the readers on CN really understand what you are talking about here. You really shouldn't assume that we do.
at the same time, you shouldn't presume your ignorance speaks to (or for) the comprehension of other people, nor that your ignorance requires an analysis in other terms than those customary in a particular field.
the basic principle: if you start with the concept that visual response is produced by a photon of light striking a specific molecule of visual pigment, then the photon has a much better chance of striking a photopigment molecule if there are millions of photopigments in a receptor cell than if there is only one molecule remaining. the analogy between a photopigment molecule and a silver grain in a photographic emulsion or the electron flux in a CCD sensor is physically exact, so we are looking at a general sensor principle.
"bleaching" or saturation occurs when previous photons have already struck and "converted" nearly all the photopigment molecules or silver emulsion grains, so that many, many more photons are necessary before one happens to strike that last molecule or grain. this means that the effectiveness of added illuminance in producing a contrast difference decreases as the total level of illuminance goes up. this is very familiar to photographers as the loss of contrast detail in parts of an image that are very bright, or in the total image that is very overexposed.
visually, you won't be able tell the difference between the luminance of the disk of the sun and something that is twice or half the luminance of the disk of the sun, because both of them will completely blitz every photopigment molecule in your retina. (this produces a temporary but complete incapacity to see anything in any other direction, called an afterimage.)
if you plot (graph) the change in visual response as a change in stimulus illuminance or luminance, you get something like this:
and this is not only a familiar function from psychophysics, but also from videography, film and print photography, computer display, projection film display, projection video display and nearly all other sensor or display technologies. (please excuse my dire presumption that you were familiar with at least one of them, or would prefer to launch a few google searches in your self education.)
the main point of the graph is that increasing luminance (horizontal dimension) produces very little difference in response (vertical dimension) at the very high or very low ends. the greatest response difference is produced in the middle range. on your computer monitor, this middle range contrast display is evaluated as your display gamma. your eye also has a response "gamma" as the change in luminance necessary to produce an incremental visual response. obviously, for best contrast sensitivity, you want the luminance of the target to match the luminance at the middle of your visual response range -- in other words, where the slope of the curve is steepest.
as you say, you look at the sheet of paper rather than the light itself, and by that means you dim the luminance of the stimulus so that it falls closer to the middle part of your response function or characteristic curve. but the sheet of white paper is still far brighter than anything else in your working environment: therefore it somewhat bleaches your retinal photopigment supply, and may somewhat reduce your dark adaptation. therefore is "bright" in the functional sense.
i regret that you may be unfamiliar with the concept of a log scale, but, as i said, google is always there to help.
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: drollere]
#5293574 - 06/28/12 04:50 PM
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Bruce,
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at the same time, you shouldn't presume your ignorance speaks to (or for) the comprehension of other people, nor that your ignorance requires an analysis in other terms than those customary in a particular field.
Yes, I am ignorant. Fortunately, there is a cure for that. I'm not sure if there is a cure for arrogance. Yours or mine.
After my many years as an amateur astronomer, conversing with other amateur astronomers both on CN and in "real" life, I think I probably have a good feel for what the majority of amateur astronomers know and do not know in this hobby. After all, it is a hobby, and most of us are not doing this full time or for any remuneration. So we really shouldn't be expected to know any of these subjects beyond a layman's nonmathematical, nonengineering understanding. I don't feel it's necessary to do a poll to prove my point. 
Mike
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drollere
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/02/10
Loc: sebastopol, california
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Sarkikos]
#5293779 - 06/28/12 07:06 PM
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So we really shouldn't be expected to know any of these subjects beyond a layman's nonmathematical, nonengineering understanding.
you feel it's more important to debate what (in your mind) other people should expect of you, instead of discuss the topic of this thread ... and that is a debate i find uninteresting.
i posted information, which you requested i clarify, which i did; which you requested i clarify, which i did; which you still find somehow unsatisfactory.
the theme i read here is your personal need for personal attention from me, including sending me a personal message as an appeal for more personal attention. as i said ... i find that uninteresting.
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: drollere]
#5294407 - 06/29/12 07:07 AM
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WRAK
sage
Reged: 02/18/12
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Man in a Tub]
#5301735 - 07/04/12 04:01 AM
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When the opportunity comes along, I post this link on star color. It is from the subtitled Southern Astronomical Delights website of Andrew James.
Star Colours by Andrew James
This labor of love has five parts and is a substantial piece of work. If you're interested, I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.
Clear skies!
I bookmarked this link for later reading but it is broken now (website is dead). Google search did not bring useable results besides a page in cache without pictures. Any hint to find this interesting article on the web elsewhere? Wilfried
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Man in a Tub
Postmaster
   
Reged: 10/28/08
Loc: Fogpatch, CA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: WRAK]
#5302566 - 07/04/12 04:23 PM
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I just happened to drop in to this thread. What a shame! I have no idea what's happened. The site @ homepage.mac.com had obviously been around for a long time. I wonder if any of our Australian or New Zealand members know Andrew James. I'm sure some must know him. He does turn up on the web. He does look like a prominent amateur astronomer in Sydney at the very least.
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Carl Kolchak
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 08/02/06
Loc: Northeast, Florida
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Man in a Tub]
#5302628 - 07/04/12 05:15 PM
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Hi all
You can use the Wayback machine. The site was crawled three times since 09.
peace & clear skies,
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Carl Kolchak]
#5302861 - 07/04/12 08:04 PM
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I had been reading that website just like week. Very enjoyable and informative. If I can find an active link, I'll post it here.
Mike
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PJ Anway
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/04/03
Loc: North Coast
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Sarkikos]
#5304034 - 07/05/12 04:32 PM
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While we're on the subject. One of my favorite books is "LES ÉTOILES - CURIOSITÉS DU CIEL" - "THE STARS - CURIOSITIES OF THE SKY". In it Camille Flammarion takes double-star colors to another level. Here are a few examples:
Albireo - yellow gold and sapphire
Sigma Capricorni - orange yellow and lilac
32 Eridani - yellow and blue topaz
a Herculis - ruby and emerald
Now those are some star colors!
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rookie
Good Night Nurse
   
Reged: 01/14/06
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Man in a Tub]
#5304530 - 07/05/12 10:37 PM
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I just happened to drop in to this thread. What a shame! I have no idea what's happened. The site @ homepage.mac.com had obviously been around for a long time. I wonder if any of our Australian or New Zealand members know Andrew James. I'm sure some must know him. He does turn up on the web. He does look like a prominent amateur astronomer in Sydney at the very least.
Hey Todd, When you posted the link earlier, I went and printed up a lot of the papers that were available including all the star colour papers, origins of the constellations to the south, and nice detailed articles about Crux, Orion and Alpha Centauri. I still have a file cabinet and like reading off paper. I'm sure glad I did this. I think I better scan them if they are no longer available.
There are times when it helps to be a little old fashioned.
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: rookie]
#5304539 - 07/05/12 10:46 PM
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I had read about half of the material on the site and planned to go back and finish it. Then ... pffft! 
Mike
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rookie
Good Night Nurse
   
Reged: 01/14/06
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Sarkikos]
#5304555 - 07/05/12 10:58 PM
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Richard7 found the web pages posted at a different address:
Southern Astronomical Delights
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Sarkikos
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Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: rookie]
#5304560 - 07/05/12 11:00 PM
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Thanks to you and Richard7! That looks like a very interesting website.
 Mike
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Man in a Tub
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Reged: 10/28/08
Loc: Fogpatch, CA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: rookie]
#5304562 - 07/05/12 11:01 PM
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Many thanks to Richard7 who replied to my query in OTO.
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: Man in a Tub]
#5304566 - 07/05/12 11:02 PM
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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09
Loc: USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: rookie]
#5304583 - 07/05/12 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I just happened to drop in to this thread. What a shame! I have no idea what's happened. The site @ homepage.mac.com had obviously been around for a long time. I wonder if any of our Australian or New Zealand members know Andrew James. I'm sure some must know him. He does turn up on the web. He does look like a prominent amateur astronomer in Sydney at the very least.
Hey Todd, When you posted the link earlier, I went and printed up a lot of the papers that were available including all the star colour papers, origins of the constellations to the south, and nice detailed articles about Crux, Orion and Alpha Centauri. I still have a file cabinet and like reading off paper. I'm sure glad I did this. I think I better scan them if they are no longer available.
There are times when it helps to be a little old fashioned.
I agree Rookie. I much prefer a hardcopy to refer to. Extended reading on a computer screen bothers me and I dont want to have to depend on a laptop for the info at the scope, or even bedtime reading. I wonder if Im the only one who occaionaly keeps Uranometria on the night table for bedtime readin. I love the electronic media but I want a volume or paper in my hands at the end of it all.
Pete
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WRAK
sage
Reged: 02/18/12
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: rookie]
#5305047 - 07/06/12 09:24 AM
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Richard7 found the web pages posted at a different address: Southern Astronomical Delights
The Wayback website hint was already quite useful (found most of the pages, although some pics were missing)- but the new Website adress is a full recovery, thanks. Wilfried
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WRAK
sage
Reged: 02/18/12
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: WRAK]
#5331196 - 07/23/12 11:57 AM
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Yesterday I had the opportunity to have a look at Eps Boo (STF1877, HIP 72105, Izar) – 2.8"DS +2.6/4.8mag. This seems to be a coloured double per se, so what about it? Seeing was not very good but at a magnification of 140x I got a fine split and enjoyed with x240 a with diffraction rings enhanced sight of the two stars wandering through the field of view. Concering colours I noticed with my 140mm refractor a pale yellow and a very pale blue white of the companion - but somehow I was prepared for it because low saturation seems to be the norm with stars. Then I tried an aperture mask with about 70mm and ... suddenly the pale yellow star changed to a bright orange while the pale blue companion remained unchanged. I then removed the mask and doubled the magnification to x480 - the resulting image was less than perfect and more of a multicoloured stain with some blue elements but I think this was already a color error of the scope (despite being an APO). So while colors of stars are a clear consequence of their spectrum I think the reception is highly individual and to a good degree depending on the used equipment. Wilfried
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azure1961p
Postmaster
   
Reged: 01/17/09
Loc: USA
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Re: Colors of stars or colors of equipment?
[Re: WRAK]
#5332079 - 07/23/12 08:54 PM
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Dropping the aperture to 70mm increased the saturation to orange from yellow for the star as its brightness was reduced so it wasnt blowing out the subtle hues.
Pete
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