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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5477205 - 10/18/12 03:16 PM

Well folks, since the thread has gotten personal, time for the old locky-lock.



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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5477533 - 10/18/12 06:28 PM

Folks, after much cleanup; the thread is now re-opened, for those members that have enjoyed this thread.

Thanks for your patience, everyone!


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Starlon
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Reged: 04/18/06

Loc: desert, USA
Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5511777 - 11/09/12 02:41 PM

For me, looking out into the universe, it is the poets that seem to 'get it'. Like Tennyson's 'Vastness'

Quote:

MANY a hearth upon our dark globe sighs after many a vanish’d face,
Many a planet by many a sun may roll with a dust of a vanish’d race.

Raving politics, never at rest—as this poor earth’s pale history runs,—
What is it all but a trouble of ants in the gleam of a million million of suns?




---- Alfred Tennyson ---- http://www.bartleby.com/246/396.html

Exactly! The beauty, the vastness.. it's all there. While humans are so busy with.. well, WE know. We know. You can see the rest at the link.

To me it's always exciting, exhilarating! A great time to relax and put things in perspective. Tennyson knew.


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: Starlon]
      #5512908 - 11/10/12 10:09 AM

Quote:

For me, looking out into the universe, it is the poets that seem to 'get it'. Like Tennyson's 'Vastness'

Quote:

MANY a hearth upon our dark globe sighs after many a vanish’d face,
Many a planet by many a sun may roll with a dust of a vanish’d race.

Raving politics, never at rest—as this poor earth’s pale history runs,—
What is it all but a trouble of ants in the gleam of a million million of suns?




---- Alfred Tennyson ---- http://www.bartleby.com/246/396.html

Exactly! The beauty, the vastness.. it's all there. While humans are so busy with.. well, WE know. We know. You can see the rest at the link.

To me it's always exciting, exhilarating! A great time to relax and put things in perspective. Tennyson knew.




Also from Alfred Lord T (excerpted)

"Is this . . . A time to sicken
and to swoon, When
Science reaches forth her
arms, To feel from world to
world, and charms her secret
from the latest moon?"

and

"Many a night I saw the
Pleiades, rising thro' the
mellow shade,
Glitter like a swarm of fire-flies
tangled in a silver braid."

But I find yers--the first two lines especially--the most sublime. TY for that.

"Go and catch a falling star,
get with child a mandrake root,
tell me, where all past years are..." --John Donne

or Byron--

"She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellowed to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies..."

and Keats--

"Bright star! would I were steadfast as thou art—
Not in lone splendour hung aloft the night,
And watching, with eternal lids apart,
Like Nature's patient sleepless Eremite...
Awake for ever in a sweet unrest,
Still, still to hear her tender-taken breath,
And so live ever—or else swoon to death."

...

"...Peace! Peace! Orestes-like I breathe this prayer!
Descend with broad-winged flight,
The welcome, the thrice-prayed for, the most fair,
The best-beloved Night!" --Longfellow


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5512960 - 11/10/12 10:49 AM

"I am dust particles in sunlight.
I am the round sun...

I am all orders of being, the circling galaxy,
the evolutionary intelligence, the lift..."

--Rumi, "Say I Am You"

This was long before Sagan and Darwin. Question is, does it still count? Without the particular test-tube type of "evidence" or "proof" that we think stands for "truth" today? There's nuthin in the universe that says mysticism and science are mutually exclusive, except a few very recent muckrakers (not referrin to CN) who have to give a nod to both to even have a quarrel.


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mountain monk
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Loc: Grand Teton National Park
Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5514990 - 11/11/12 07:47 PM

All,

I find it dispiriting that people continue to drive a wedge between poetry (or any other art) and science, especially when it come to the Romantic poets. They loved science. Look at Richard Holmes famous book--The Age of Wonder: How the Romantic Generation Discovered the Beauty and Terror of Science. I cannot recommend it too highly. Among other things, Holmes pens two marvelous chapters on Herschel and his influence.

Dark skies.

Jack

Edited by mountain monk (11/11/12 07:49 PM)


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killdabuddha
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: mountain monk]
      #5515671 - 11/12/12 09:40 AM


Thanks for that. Will check it out.


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5515799 - 11/12/12 11:14 AM

Mysticism is how we explain that phenomena we can't yet explain.

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Pinbout
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Loc: nj
Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5515821 - 11/12/12 11:24 AM

I think shakespeare had something when he wrote:


Horatio:
O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!


Hamlet:
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.




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killdabuddha
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5515903 - 11/12/12 12:15 PM

Quote:

Mysticism is how we explain that phenomena we can't yet explain.




Only as defined by some who think that "everything" is amenable to, or requires, "explaining," "phenomenal" and otherwise. This shrinking and narrowing trend today of divesting even words/concepts/experience of their original content portends/forebodes a new "unenlightenment." Heaven help the kids who have to be dumbed down by Lewis' "Men without Chests" and the like. Not that I'm worried. For every "new" "thing" (including "explanation"), I'm sure that I and others will find more in it rather than less, if they haven't already. And even if some manage to banish "myth" and "mystical" to some "enlightened" book-burnin pile, nature is always greater than we and our misfortunes. One mite even imagine a day when we'll burn the witches who burned our witches, whatever hat they happen to be wearin. There will always be some who think nature is a problem/puzzle to be solved, and these will always be eclipsed by those who can do this and more. That, or get a better dictionary. Maybe the OED. “We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.” Only the deluded think otherwise. Maybe look further into the implications/lessons of quantum indeterminacy, entanglement, etc. The new enlightenment is the same as the old--there is no "there" "there." The "mystics," "poets," and a good many others knew this and many still do, including scientists. It's not sumthin that you can "explain" away, either. But maybe even more to the point, why would sum1 come to a post about mysticism just to say that there's no such animal, except insofar as itsa poor substitute for ignorance, all the while admitting that they know nuthin of it but will nonetheless presume to tell others what it is? This I will never understand.

"The astronomer may speak to you of his understanding of space, but he cannot give you his understanding." Otherwise,

"These earthly godfathers of heaven’s lights,
That give a name to every fixed star
Have no more profit of their shining nights
Than those that walk, and wot not what they are." --Will Shakespeare

"No one can date that remote epoch when astronomy 'began'—we can say only that the fascination of the heaven is as old as man’s ability to think; as ancient as his capacity to wonder and to dream. And in company with most of the special enchantments of human life, the unique appeal of astronomy is incommunicable; easily understood through direct experience, but not to be precisely defined or explained. Nor should any explanation be thought necessary. The area of astronomy is both intellectual and aesthetic; it combines the thrill of exploration and discovery, the fun of sight-seeing, and the sheer pleasure of firsthand acquaintance with incredibly wonderful and beautiful things." --Burnham’s Celestial Handbook

"Yet nature does not always prefer conventional explanations, least of all in astronomy." --Roger Penrose

Neither love nor obey the word, but what it tries to tell.


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Paco_Grande
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5516173 - 11/12/12 03:05 PM

Quote:

Mysticism is how we explain that phenomena we can't yet explain.




Ah, a major problem in understanding the mystics is most people confuse the method with the result. The method appears to be mystical, often because it deals mostly in non-dual traditions and hence, paradox. The result of this is not mystical at all. But you can't explain it with words, either.

Quote:

We talk to ourselves incessantly about our world. In fact we maintain our world with our internal talk. And whenever we finish talking to ourselves about ourselves and our world, the world is always as it should be. We renew it, we rekindle it with life, we uphold it with our internal talk. Not only that, but we also choose our paths as we talk to ourselves. Thus we repeat the same choices over and over until the day we die, because we keep on repeating the same internal talk over and over until the day we die. A warrior is aware of this and strives to stop his internal talk.
~ don Juan Matus






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killdabuddha
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Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5517962 - 11/13/12 01:32 PM

"If then th’ Astronomers, whereas they spie
A new-found Starre, their Opticks magnifie,
How brave are those, who with their Engine, can
Bring man to heaven, and heaven againe to man?" --John Donne

"The task of the observational astronomer is to survey and explore the universe, and to describe and classify the various types of objects which it is constituted, discovering what law and order he may in their observed arrangement and behavior. But only the dullest of human minds can rest content with a mere catalogue of observed facts; an alert mind asks always for the why and the wherefore." --Sir James Jeans

"The biologist can push it back to the original protist, and the chemist can push it back to the crystal, but none of them touch the real question of why or how the thing began at all. The astronomer goes back untold million of years and ends in gas and emptiness, and then the mathematician sweeps the whole cosmos into unreality and leaves one with mind as the only thing of which we have any immediate apprehension. 'Cogito ergo sum, ergo omnia esse videntur.' All this bother, and we are no further than Descartes. Have you noticed that the astronomers and mathematicians are much the most cheerful people of the lot? I suppose that perpetually contemplating things on so vast a scale makes them feel either that it doesn’t matter a hoot anyway, or that anything so large and elaborate must have some sense in it somewhere." --Dorothy Sayers


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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5518011 - 11/13/12 02:02 PM

"...or that anything so large and elaborate must have some sense in it somewhere."

No doubt why we call Earth a small, insignificant spec of dust....cause thee sure ain't no sense here.......


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killdabuddha
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5518050 - 11/13/12 02:30 PM

I'm with ya lice, and admit freely that it's our human habit to render, to project, and to play with "[t]he forms of things unknown...[t]urn them to shapes and give to airy nothing A local habitation and a name." It's easy to say (and I do it) that "the only sense here is the sense that we give it," until sum1 like Dirac gets hold of an equation that's "smarter than [he is]," and voila! let's have some antimatter with our tea and jam. That's why I've abandoned the preposterous notion that there's any "truth" that can be said to be truly external to us. We're in the mix, so to speak, and in the words of Jean Paul Sartre (after "Au revior, gopher"), there's "No Exit."

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csrlice12
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5518137 - 11/13/12 03:22 PM

I tend to agree, there is no exit or entrance....only the door. How we view it is only how we view it; and may have nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

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killdabuddha
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5518240 - 11/13/12 04:26 PM

Quote:

...only the door...




Huxley? Doors of Perception?

Or Rumi maybe?

"I've lived on the lip of bewilderment,
wanting to know reasons,
knocking on a door.
It opens.
and all these times
I've been knocking from inside."

Same same probly.


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csrlice12
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5518247 - 11/13/12 04:31 PM

Jim Morrison???

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killdabuddha
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5518261 - 11/13/12 04:40 PM


The book and title were what the Doors lifted for their band.


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Paco_Grande
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Reged: 07/14/12

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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5518516 - 11/13/12 06:57 PM

“in the universal womb that is boundless space
all forms of matter and energy occur
as flux of the four elements,
but all are empty forms, absent in reality:
all phenomena, arising in pure mind, are like that.

just as dream is a part of sleep,
unreal in its arising,
so all and everything is pure mind,
never separated from it,
and without substance or attribute.

experience is neither mind nor anything but mind;
it is a vivid display of emptiness, like magical illusion,
in the very moment inconceivable and unutterable.
all experience arising in the mind,
at its inception, know it as emptiness!”
~ Longchenpa


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cheapersleeper
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Re: Borderline Mystics new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5518995 - 11/14/12 01:54 AM

I have no interest in driving wedges anywhere but have to say that I am apparently hard wired NOT to ever feel things of a spiritual, mystical, or supernatural nature. The fact that I don't experience them certainly does not PROVE that they don't exist. At the same time, the fact that various altered states of consciousness can be reached reliably by many different methods does tend to make me question whether there is anything at work other than a common quality of the human mind.

As for the poetry and the prose, I do not see any reason why it cannot be appreciated for it's beauty without trying to tie it into something bigger.

Regards,
Brad


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