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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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MikeBOKC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/10/10

Loc: Oklahoma City, OK
How to keep observing interesting?
      #5641041 - 01/24/13 04:48 PM

I have been looking into an eyepiece, off and on, since the early 1980s, not including childhood. While I have been in and out of astronomy to varying degrees, the last few years, with partial retirement and a renewed involvement in the local astro club, have given me more observing opportunities. But like many I suspect I find myself sometimes saying "Sky is pretty good . . . could get out . . . naw, Jupiter is in the same basic spot as it was two nights ago." Not burnout by any means, but a reluctance to gear up, set up and view the same sky I had yesterday.

I have found a few techniques that make observing less habitual and more enticing. I'll note mine and then yield to others for additional suggestions:

-- Spend a night on one specific category of objects like double stars.

-- Binoview exclusively for a whole evening.

-- Play with filters on a range of objects to see what they do (and don't) do.

-- Let the tour function on the CPC take me from object to object all evening.

-- Set up the small refractor instead and try differnt eyepieces on the moon.

Any other ideas to add spice and variety to keep observing fresh?


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norton67
member


Reged: 12/11/12

Loc: Michigan
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5641279 - 01/24/13 07:10 PM

Find someone, maybe a grandchild and show them all that you have seen. Make it new through showing and sharing the hobby with someone new.

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kansas skies
sage


Reged: 12/02/12

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: norton67]
      #5641280 - 01/24/13 07:12 PM

Buying a new scope always seems to help...

Seriously, I like to try to target objects and details that are just outside my limitations. This gives me the incentive that I need to get out under a variety of conditions. I try to include Lunar features as well, so the moon does more than just get in the way.

Bill


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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5641294 - 01/24/13 07:18 PM

My observing buddy and I will pick a chart or two from the S&T Pocket Atlas and will try to find every galaxy, planetary, etc. or if the pickings are more slim, try for every object marked on that chart.

Another thing we do for variety is research an interesting object ahead of time then find it in the scope to surprise the other person.


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Meep_Esq
member


Reged: 01/02/07

Loc: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5641341 - 01/24/13 07:50 PM

For me, having a project is the key, stops things from becoming a bit aimless. Also, planning what you'd like to do beforehand. My current ideas include trying to observe Venus during the day, and trying to observe particular lunar features over a full lunar day to build up a better idea of the topography. It's hardly pro-am stuff but it keeps your brain engaged :-)

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herrointment
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/12/11

Loc: North of Hwy. 64
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Meep_Esq]
      #5641386 - 01/24/13 08:11 PM

Looking at the night sky from southern N.Z. would do the trick. A few hours on the Mataura and I would die a happy man!

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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5641390 - 01/24/13 08:12 PM

Quote:

Any other ideas to add spice and variety to keep observing fresh?




Observe naked.
In winter.


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CJK
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/05/12

Loc: Northeast TN
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: EJN]
      #5641424 - 01/24/13 08:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Any other ideas to add spice and variety to keep observing fresh?




Observe naked.
In winter.






-- Chris


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ZeroID
sage


Reged: 04/21/10

Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: CJK]
      #5641459 - 01/24/13 08:51 PM

Funny, I got asked the question 'why do I keep trying to photgraph the stars, they all look the same'
Just made me think there is so much diversity in objects and visual\photographic challenges up there along wth all the technical challenges of making it all come together that I think I am going to run out of time before I run out of interest.
A large part of my interest is in planning to solve those challenges with my limited resources and ingenuity. I probably spend as much (or more) time in the workshop or Ob testing and rebuilding stuff. Almost the perfect hobby IMHO. All I need now is to get my food and drink delivered so I don't have to stop and I'll be happy. My wife might take exception to that arrangement though.


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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5641621 - 01/24/13 10:10 PM

Quote:

Seriously, I like to try to target objects and details that are just outside my limitations. This gives me the incentive that I need to get out under a variety of conditions. I try to include Lunar features as well, so the moon does more than just get in the way.

Bill




I'd agree with that. Challenge yourself and push you're scope beyond the simple glance. You might be surprised what it can show you, that makes a huge difference in the level of excitement. For example, Jupiter this season has been wonderful, I could not put my scope away having seen Jupiter like never before: a wealth of detail and learning to observe it's colors. Tackle some difficult double stars and some colorful pairs. As stated, observe the moon instead of shunning it. As a deep sky observer, I was just amazed at what the moon can offer besides a lit sky.


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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
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Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5641655 - 01/24/13 10:27 PM

Quote:

Buying a new scope always seems to help...

Seriously, I like to try to target objects and details that are just outside my limitations. This gives me the incentive that I need to get out under a variety of conditions. I try to include Lunar features as well, so the moon does more than just get in the way.

Bill






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dennyhenke
super member


Reged: 09/07/12

Loc: Fredericktown, MO
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5641798 - 01/25/13 12:32 AM

I'm really enjoying the various lists and programs. I've almost finished the Messier list and have made a good bit of progress on the Herschel 400. Next on the list is Herschel 2 and after that the Globular Cluster program and the new Stellar Evolution program... these are all via the Astronomical League.

As I work through the various lists I supplement the visual astronomy with lots of reading of astronomy/cosmology books and Wikipedia. Lastly, I listen to lots of science/astronomy oriented podcasts, Astronomy Cast with Pamela Gay and Fraser Cain being my favorite.

Exploring the science aspect of it all really enriches the experience not only because it adds depth but also because it adds to my realization that I know so little... I could do this for the rest of my life and still be a novice and yet I'll constantly have a real sense of achievement and constant learning.

One last thing, I do a lot of viewing by myself but also do a lot of viewing with friends and guests. My nearby facebook friends all know they have an open invitation to come out any clear night. It seems to work out perfectly.


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nicknacknock
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 02/20/12

Loc: In a galaxy far far away...
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: dennyhenke]
      #5641927 - 01/25/13 04:23 AM

How about having a regular observing partner?

It really motivates me to go out and observe more often.


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: nicknacknock]
      #5642054 - 01/25/13 07:58 AM

1) get involved in your local club.
2) outreach.


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wky46
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 12/12/05

Loc: west Ky.
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5642078 - 01/25/13 08:19 AM

Binoculars certainly add a little spice. Also, inexpensive solar film to view the sun in white light. I set my telescope up during the day and since it's already set up, it's there at the ready for night time viewing. I also tend to view and concentrate on those objects that are presenting themselves easterly for the first time of the season. I eagerly anticipate and view them throughout their westerly track til finally presenting the most optimal view through the eyepiece at or a little past meridian.... Phil

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5642098 - 01/25/13 08:36 AM

Lots of good suggestions so far. Things that work for me:

- Be relaxed, time under the night sky is like an evening walk through the neighborhood or the nearby woods. Let curiosity and serendipity roam free. No need to rush around.

- Switch scopes, adds variety. Hunting down M76 from my backyard is not so easy in a 4 inch but do able. It's even more difficult in a 60mm, a nice challenge for a light polluted backyard.

- From a light polluted backyard, take up observing double-stars. They are everywhere and most are not seriously affected by light pollution.

- From a light polluted backyard... Pick a challenge object, one that would seem to be impossible.. Make it a project. Find it. For example, the Helix Nebula never rises more 35degrees. It's large with a very low surface brightness. The southern sky is badly light polluted... downtown, the malls, the freeways... it's light pollution much. It's detectable with an 80mm and the right filter.

jon


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5642120 - 01/25/13 08:49 AM

Quote:

For example, the Helix Nebula never rises more 35degrees. It's large with a very low surface brightness. The southern sky is badly light polluted... downtown, the malls, the freeways... it's light pollution much. It's detectable with an 80mm and the right filter.




Out of all the objects that I have difficulty finding, the Helix is at or near the top of my list for figuring out a good way to locate it. Do you have an easy method?


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edwincjones
Close Enough
*****

Reged: 04/10/04

Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5642135 - 01/25/13 08:56 AM

start over

-naked eye

-binocululars

-view something different

-go to a/different star party

-read a good astronomy book/new magazine

-take a break for a while

-go to club meetings

edj


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: edwincjones]
      #5642155 - 01/25/13 09:15 AM

Wait till you're older to get into astronomy, you'll be dead before you can get bored????

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5642203 - 01/25/13 09:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

For example, the Helix Nebula never rises more 35degrees. It's large with a very low surface brightness. The southern sky is badly light polluted... downtown, the malls, the freeways... it's light pollution much. It's detectable with an 80mm and the right filter.




Out of all the objects that I have difficulty finding, the Helix is at or near the top of my list for figuring out a good way to locate it. Do you have an easy method?




Dennis:

No super easy method. Maybe someone else has a better method.

I just refreshed my memory looking at Cartes du Ciel. If the skies are dark, I believe I typically triangulate off of 77 and 88 Aquarii using a magnifying finder or a short focal length refractor. If I am low, I recognize a 3 star arc beginning with 49 Aquarii that leads to the Helix. It is recognizable in a finder if the skies are dark.

Finding it from my light polluted backyard in the 80mm takes more careful starhopping, I believe I used 5th magnitude 41 and 47 Aquarii as pointers, it's about two degrees North-East of 47. Low powers, O-III filter.

Jon


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Feidb
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/09/09

Loc: Nevada
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5642229 - 01/25/13 09:55 AM

I've been observing 46 years and have never been bored with it, not once. EVER.

I have observing goals. Faint fuzzies. I have lists, right now it's the Herschel 400-2, the Herschel 2500, the Skiff & Luginbuhl list, the Palomars, the Collinder clusters... I'll probably never see them all but I'll sure try.

Even if I ever do, I'll probably start over again.


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5642243 - 01/25/13 10:01 AM

Jon,

Thanks for the response. So many targets have great/easy ways of finding them. David Knisely once posted a method for easily finding the Cat's Eye nebula using the center of an X formed by 36, 42, f, and omega Draconis. If I can see these 4 stars (which form an obvious asterism) then I can point a dob at the Cat's Eye in seconds, whereas before it would take me minutes. I would love to be able to find the Helix like this, but I guess some targets are going to remain a challenge. Maybe I will post this question over on an observing forum.

Maybe the original poster might find new pleasures in being able to manually find more stuff? I know that I really get into learning the sky better - what started out as a necessity (homemade scopes) has become an important part of my enjoyment.

Edited by dpwoos (01/25/13 10:06 AM)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5642305 - 01/25/13 10:38 AM

Quote:

Wait till you're older to get into astronomy, you'll be dead before you can get bored????





Ohhh, I fit that catagory!


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5642313 - 01/25/13 10:42 AM

I like to find the targets listed in the "This Month" catagory of S&T, and Astronomy magazine. Many mentioned, I have not seen, so it inspires me to put them on my "to see" list.

I also use the Pocket Sky Atlas, & love taking a page & trying for every possible target on that page.

When weather does not permit observing, then I turn to my astronomy library & go thru my books; then I can't wait to get out observing!


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5642328 - 01/25/13 10:50 AM

I finally just gave up and took up cloud watching as another hobby...I'm getting pretty good at it.....and I seem to have a lot more time for this hobby then I do astronomy.....and what's more....watching clouds is a LOT cheaper, in fact, it's free!

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MawkHawk
sage
*****

Reged: 08/23/09

Loc: SE Michigan, USA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5642431 - 01/25/13 11:57 AM

Every time you get bored, get a different scope.

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5642660 - 01/25/13 02:03 PM

Quote:

I like to find the targets listed in the "This Month" catagory of S&T, and Astronomy magazine. Many mentioned, I have not seen, so it inspires me to put them on my "to see" list.

I also use the Pocket Sky Atlas, & love taking a page & trying for every possible target on that page.

When weather does not permit observing, then I turn to my astronomy library & go thru my books; then I can't wait to get out observing!






- The Cloudy Nights observing forums are also good places to find interesting new objects.

Jon


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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: dennyhenke]
      #5642705 - 01/25/13 02:26 PM

Quote:

I'm really enjoying the various lists and programs. I've almost finished the Messier list and have made a good bit of progress on the Herschel 400. Next on the list is Herschel 2 and after that the Globular Cluster program and the new Stellar Evolution program... these are all via the Astronomical League.








I agree with Denny.

I think a list of objects to work on motivates us. I am going through the Messier Catalog and trying my hand at sketching some of the objects. I also have done some of the easier Hershel Objects.

As others have suggested a plan certainly helps. But the other night it was very cold and windy and I only had about 25 minutes to spare. So I enjoyed the Moon, Jupiter, and Orion.

Sometimes looking at them is like an old friend. They have more to show each time you look.

Another favorite thing to do is just stand in my driveway before leaving for work while everyone is still asleep and just look around at the pre-dawn sky.


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John Kuraoka
sage
*****

Reged: 12/12/12

Loc: Sunny San Diego, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5642845 - 01/25/13 03:47 PM

With my kids, I like to mix it up - a planet, a nebula, a cluster, back to the moon. But, I like to have some cool tidbit of information about the target.

Like, when I showed them Andromeda, the two things that seemed to be coolest were (a) it was a whole other galaxy and (b) if we actually had a dark sky and could see the whole thing (all we could make out was the central fuzzblob), it would take up more sky than the moon. The idea that the scope could tease out very large, dim objects was exciting.

So for me, the formula has been cool object + cool factoid(s) = sustained interest.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5643170 - 01/25/13 07:02 PM

Don't do anything. The night sky is always interesting--like my wife's kisses.

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MikeRatcliff
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/12/04

Loc: Redlands, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5643227 - 01/25/13 07:40 PM

On the Helix, I start with Delta Aqr (mag 3.3) that is the brightest star due east of the upper left (east) corner of the Capricorn triangle.

From Delta Aqr there is a gentle curve of three stars below (south) and to the right (west) of Delta: 66 Aqr (mag 4.7), Upsilon = 59 Aqr (mag 5.2) and 47 Aqr (mag 5.1).

The Helix is in between the last two stars, closer to the second star.

"Left", "right", "below" are for mid latitude Northern Hemisphere people. The 3 stars can be seen pretty easily in blue skies but I haven't tried it in my red sky backyard. Of course easier to show with a laser pointer than the words above.
Mike


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Doc Willie
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Reged: 03/31/10

Loc: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY, USA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5643928 - 01/26/13 08:11 AM

Buy more stuff.

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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5643941 - 01/26/13 08:25 AM

Quote:

On the Helix, I start with Delta Aqr (mag 3.3) that is the brightest star due east of the upper left (east) corner of the Capricorn triangle.

From Delta Aqr there is a gentle curve of three stars below (south) and to the right (west) of Delta: 66 Aqr (mag 4.7), Upsilon = 59 Aqr (mag 5.2) and 47 Aqr (mag 5.1).

The Helix is in between the last two stars, closer to the second star.

"Left", "right", "below" are for mid latitude Northern Hemisphere people. The 3 stars can be seen pretty easily in blue skies but I haven't tried it in my red sky backyard. Of course easier to show with a laser pointer than the words above.
Mike




I like how this looks, and am looking forward to giving it a try. Hopefully my eyes/brain will want to latch onto this! Thanks.


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City Kid
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/06/09

Loc: Northern Indiana
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5643952 - 01/26/13 08:32 AM

I'm always working on completing multiple observing lists from the Astronomical League. These give me a never ending list of new targets to observe. I've also found that keeping my life so busy that I barely have time to observe even when it's clear really helps keep it fresh.

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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: City Kid]
      #5644122 - 01/26/13 10:32 AM

I think as long as one is in awe of the Universe and how appreciative the incredible beauty the skies offer, one is always motivated to look.

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5644139 - 01/26/13 10:42 AM

"Not burnout by any means, but a reluctance to gear up, set up and view the same sky I had yesterday."

Hmm, that "same sky" is a pretty big place, full of interesting things to look at that couldn't possibly all be seen in one night...or a thousand nights. Pace yourself and be deliberate. Don't dabble, but rather build lists and set goals for each season and each session. Yeah, I know, it's starting to sound a bit like work, but a little structure and effort at the front end will keep things engaging when, even though it's the "same sky" the next day, it's not the "same targets".

It also helps to have a set-up or two that have minimal set-up time requirements. The easier you make it to get the stuff out and ready, the more productive you'll be with your goals and lists.

Regards,

Jim


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5644143 - 01/26/13 10:44 AM

Oooooh...I dub thee "Gene Juan". Ayayayaya!




- Jim


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jfaust75
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/04/11

Loc: Central Florida
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5644616 - 01/26/13 03:37 PM

change viewing time(instead of going out at sunset wake up an hour or two before sunrise) We(myself and 14yo son) are planning on doing this in the morning to see saturn and maybe Omega Centauri if we are lucky enough(low in the sky here but better than not seeing it at all)

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bob irvin
sage


Reged: 03/22/11

Loc: Greater Los Angeles, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5650537 - 01/29/13 03:10 PM

Great thread.

I like to see how seeing conditions change how things look. Take a look with your naked eyes and if it looks steady see if the scope bears it out.

I also second what Jon says about double stars they are a treat.

bob


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: bob irvin]
      #5650575 - 01/29/13 03:26 PM

Photons are similar to water, you can't view the same photon twice.....the views are never the same......

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Meep_Esq
member


Reged: 01/02/07

Loc: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: herrointment]
      #5651275 - 01/29/13 10:15 PM

I've been hanging out for a decent auroral display. Just got back from a weekend in the Catlins - a wild, isolated coastal area with a only a few settlements here and there. A full moon did put a crimp in the black skies tho...

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Sonomajfk
member
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Reged: 06/30/12

Loc: northern CA, USA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Meep_Esq]
      #5651307 - 01/29/13 10:34 PM

I'm working on observing lists; just started some new observing lists with binoculars, which keeps observing focussed on some goals. But I also find that astronomical events (like the recent transit of Venus, comet apparitions, etc.) always raise my interest and energy level for observing. Taking classes where they're available is great, too... always so much more to learn about.

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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
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Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: Sonomajfk]
      #5651313 - 01/29/13 10:41 PM

There are some very practical things mention and I have a few but one thing that is going to keep it fun for me is this winter. It's been so cloudy and snowy this winter I haven't been out at a dark site observing since early November. Take a 3 month break due to weather and next time out I promise will be fun and enjoyable. I can't wait!

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John Kuraoka
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Reged: 12/12/12

Loc: Sunny San Diego, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5652368 - 01/30/13 01:45 PM

I'm still a beginner so it's all new and interesting. But last night, with a haze rolling in, I used SkEye to find potential things to look at in the patches of clear sky I did have.

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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

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Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5652387 - 01/30/13 01:54 PM

Quote:

There are some very practical things mention and I have a few but one thing that is going to keep it fun for me is this winter. It's been so cloudy and snowy this winter I haven't been out at a dark site observing since early November. Take a 3 month break due to weather and next time out I promise will be fun and enjoyable. I can't wait!





Sure you ain't in the Denver area? Sure sounds like it.


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bob irvin
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Reged: 03/22/11

Loc: Greater Los Angeles, CA
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5652529 - 01/30/13 03:16 PM

Great thread.

I second what Jon says about double stars, they are very cool to view and can be seen well in light polluted areas.

I also get fired up to observe by reading up on celestial objects, and listening to astronomy pod casts like this. It gets me thinking about what amazing wonders lie out there and makes me want to have a look for myself.

bob


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ensign
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Reged: 12/16/08

Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Re: How to keep observing interesting? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5653175 - 01/30/13 08:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There are some very practical things mention and I have a few but one thing that is going to keep it fun for me is this winter. It's been so cloudy and snowy this winter I haven't been out at a dark site observing since early November. Take a 3 month break due to weather and next time out I promise will be fun and enjoyable. I can't wait!





Sure you ain't in the Denver area? Sure sounds like it.




Or Southwestern Ontario? Same rotten, stinkin', gray, cloudy skies here too. One of our club members has taken to hitting himself in the head with a hammer just so he can see stars. Of course, the rest of us are taking up a collection to help with the psychiatric bills.


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