stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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Hi to all,
I am already using the toucam from Philipps which is a 8 bit camera by color channel on planets. I am expecting something consistent for making some photometry works on star and planets, without considering a SBIG or other competitor in this range of price.
Is there somebody who did works in that fields with the new dsi imagers with 16 bits abilities: the Meade ones and the Orion one. Personnally I am attired by the DSI pro model which is N/B sensor.
Please your opinions
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1743
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There was a heated debate on this very topic, a few weeks ago.
See This thread
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Kenny2004
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 1329
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Yup, it was indeed a debate. But given the images presented, I'm wondering whether going the Pro route is worth the effort of combining the images. I've seen very sharp images from the one shot color cameras as well. I think it all depends on your tolerance and expectation. If you can live with not necessary the sharpest maximum picture, then the one shot will do just fine.
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Celestron CPC800XLT
Meade ETX-70AT
Meade ETX-125AT /wUHTC
Meade DSI-C
Meade DSI II Pro
Philips SPC900NC Webcam
Celestron NexImage
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Zyxlor
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 2112
Loc: St. Cloud, FL
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I really like my DSI Pro II and I think using the filters is fun. I added an Ha filter to the arsonal and really like it.
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Zyxlor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tak TSA-102S
Tak EM-200 Temma 2
Meade 10" LX200 OTA now removed from forks-
OTA is now rigged to go onto Tak mount.
Celestron EB80 Piggy backed on TSA102 or 10" SCT which ever is in use!
Meade DSI Pro II (a great guiding camera!)
Philips Toucam
Philips 900NC
SBIG STL-11000M
Astrodon LRGBH 50mm
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5364
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Zyxlor; I agree, for me (maybe it's just me) I think it's neat using the filters. The gray-scale luminance image shows so much detail and it's neat to see the difference between the red, green, and blue data as it come it. For example; when imaging M27 the nebula looks very different in the three colors, and the hot blue central star really stands out in the blue data. Similarly, the Horsehead nebula stands out in the red data, and is nearly invisible in the green and blue data. In the Trifid the emission nebula stands out in the red, the reflection nebula in the blue. I'm considering getting a Pro II and using the extra filter slide to hold specialty filters like my Orion Ultrablock O-III/Hb and an Ha filter.
Stanislas; if your interest is photometry a DSI Pro or Pro II should work well. The AAVSO web site has some interesting articles on CCD photometry and a Google search on using the DSI for photometry brings up some interesting hits. I've seen some work done with the original color DSI, but the monochrome Pro is better suited for photometric work and its response has been reported to be very linear across the first 15 bits of its dynamic range (up to about 32,000 counts).
Neat stuff.
-John
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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Thanks to all
will go to the forums on question.
However, reading the datasheets of the imagers:
- the orion one in binning 2x2 is working only in B/W monochrome views, of course resolution is less but may be workable, I did not see also in the treatment of the views the flat field compensation. The ccd matrix reference is given.
- the Meade imagers, the ccd matrix reference is not given. Is that mean that we can get different references from sony exview?
However my problem is making photometry on planets I think a harder problem than star photometry where software is difficult to find (may be AIP4win, but to be investigated). First think is to get not only acurate contrasted views but linearly balanced views in brightness scaling.
I have no opinion for the momment, but my first idea was for the meade dsi pro B/W viewing. Not an enough consistent project at present for me considering the informations that I have. Will go to the said forums for consulting them.
thanks again.
stanislas.
R152-990 TS plus chromacor
N150-900 home made
R102-1000 TS
N4GT nexstar.
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5364
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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As for CCD photometry there are several packages that will do the annular integrations. The Autostarsuite software that comes with the DSI does it; I've experimented with it a bit and it seems to work. The trick ti getting it to work well is getting good data within the linear dynamic range of the detector. The AAVSO web site or a Google search on CCD photometry should bring up sites that describe other software that offer that function.
-John
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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Will go to those forums.
However I am surprised that none of the suppliers are telling something about the flat field compensation. I think in photometry, this is a major point. In fact nothing reported in the data sheets that we can found in the respective web sites, Orion and Meade. Strange for me.
But I noted that the B/W ccd sensor has a better dynamic range, on paper. For webcam the same way, the TC255 B/W ccd was already better in linearity and dynamic but with less sensitivity on surfaces than others in colour.
Meade doesnot specify their CCD sensor, not mentionned, also strange for me, that could be subject to fabrication change? or they put an exview, but we have a lot of refrences for.
I had already a ccd HAD exview chip clearly stated in reference, sensitive but only a 12 bit (see RF concepts in Ireland who sold survey camera chips from Sony), it's the 1043XL B/W reference.
So the said camera actually 16 bit cameras?
stanislas
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5364
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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The DSI series are all 16-bit cameras.
DSI II: ICX429AKL
DSI II Pro: ICX429ALL
I've got the chips used by the DSI and DSI Pro written down somewhere, but looking through the list of SONY Type 1/3 Super HADs it's not too difficult to figure out which ones they are.
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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I am not sure that those camera B/W are very linear, but my choice will go to the DSI pro B/W reference as it is a good compromise of quality and cost.
Thaks to all.
stanislas.
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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What I seem to notice in these threads, is that the people with Meade equipment(mounts) that use the DSI's (pro-proII or what ever) really like them, but you don't seem to get those comments from the people that have other mounts and such. Is it because the software for the cameras is too proprietary? I personally think a mono camera is a better way to go (more versatile and sensitive) but I hold back because my setup is made up from all kinds of different manufacters and I question the software supplied by Meade.
If only one of the other's would make similar cameras, like where is Celestron and Orion has a good one shoot but haven't a mono option.
Lawrie
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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Paul Rix
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 2923
Loc: Zanesville, Ohio,USA
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Lawrie, the only features that would not be available to you is the autoguiding if you have two DSI's and the Drizzle Mosaic feature (which I have never used anyway as you can't autoguide when this is used). The basic funtionality of the DSI cameras will work on just about any scope.
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Climbing the Learning Curve
Meade 10" LX200 Classic: WO 66SD.
Philips SPC900NC, DMK21AU04.AS, Meade DSI Pro and DSI Pro II.
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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I wonder why they don't make it SBIG compatible so they could be used with other mounts?
Lawrie
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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The Loafer
super member
Reged: 10/16/05
Posts: 107
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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lawrie: I think a Meade scope owner may have a tendency to automatically go for a Meade product, so there are more comments from them because they are probably more numerous. But personally, I have a Celestron CPC800 8" SCT and a Meade DSI-C 2 and they work just fine together and I feel I'm getting good results, especially when considering I've still got so much to learn (and I'm limiting myself with an alt-Az mount right now). Paul is right, the camera works just fine. I can still mosaic manually and as for autoguiding, the Meade software isn't the only solution for that.
As for the quality of the Meade software, it's certainly makes it easier to get started, does a very good job of getting an end result without being overly complex. There are better solutions but it's a good starter solution imho.
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie again
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22454
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
I wonder why they don't make it SBIG compatible so they could be used with other mounts?
Lawrie
They aren't standalone cameras - they require a PC to operate. There'd be no way for them to output autoguide signals on their own. Once the camera is connected to a PC it's easy enough to rig the PC to any appropriately-equipped mount's standard autoguide port (a la SBIG) if that's what you want to do.
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John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200, CI-700
ST-10XME
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Right you have to have a PC, but is the software compatible with say my Atlas or do you then use other software to auto guide with? I have never done any auto guiding, the limited amount I have done has all been manual with film. I just some how got the impression that the Meade software won't work with other equipment and one of the criteria for a camera is the ability to auto guide. So please tell me if I am wrong and how you would hook it up.
Lawrie
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie again
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22454
Loc: NE Ohio
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They are offered primarily as imaging cameras rather than as autoguiders - but they can be used as guide cameras with non-Meade mounts. K3CCDTools3 will guide with some (maybe all by this time) Meade webcams and by now GuideDog probably will also. If you want to use Autostar Suite there's freeware available that will trap serial guide commands generated by Autostar Suite and convert them to conventional guide pulses.
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John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200, CI-700
ST-10XME
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5364
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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I dunno, for the first year I used my DSI on an Orion StarBlast driven by the mount from a DS-2130 I picked up at WalMart. I still don't use any of the few features in the camera software that is specific to Meade mounts. I do control my LXD75 using the Remote Handbox function from the Autostar Suite, but that has nothing to do with the camera. I use drizzle all the time, but I use it offline like anyone else could.
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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Hi to all,
Excuse-me but this not the debate.
For illustrating more the actual debate, this is for example the Venus case. We have often wiews in the UV light and nothing on the visible range light but in fact we have markings on the disk, slight and very low contrasted marks on the disk when visually observed and actually seen.
So, a 8bit camera like webcams are usless, a 16 bit camera (an actual one)may be not enough but better and the question is what are the performance, the actual performance of those cameras when not going to the 1500 and more for the costly models. When are only amateur.
This kind of project involves not only ccd selection but also the right OTA where this planet involves also a high amount of glaring light Imagine OTAs with several optical surfaces with the glaring effect, according my experience of observation the better choice was a newtonian, perfect optically of 5" aperture (only 2 surfaces) with 1" of arc resolution.
The problem of the commercial products this is there is strictly no technical data of their characteristics, for ccd camera performance and OTAs except dia and focus length (not so exagerated).
stanislas.
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mnaf
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 626
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Lawrie,
Don't worry about autoguiding with a Meade camera and a non-Meade mount - you can do it fine. I have the Orion Atlas mount and use Guidestar and Envisage to autoguide with an LPI. It works great (within the limits of the LPI!  ). The Atlas accepts SBIG format autoguide signals and Guidestar (which is free) converts the Envisage output to match SBIG.
I've been using film also but I'm looking to get the DSI II Pro - my biggest deciding factors were cooling and monochrome (vs. Orion DSC) and not the Meade "branding".
I'm fairly indifferent to brands - I just look for the best product in my price range.
PM me if you've got questions about the setup and I'd be happy to help.
Mike
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~Mike
Atlas EQ-G
Orion 8", AT66ED
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Thank you Mike, My feelings are the same as yours, I'm indifferent to branding too. Just looking for the best product for the money. I had read on one thread that someone was making a conversion package for the Orion SS to convert it to a mono chip (same as the DSI Pro II) now that would be a good camera because of the cooling and higher sensitivity. 
When I get closer to the camera I will take you up on the PM Thank you. 
Sorry Stanislas, wasn't trying to sidetrack your thread, I thought it was about the different cameras, not lack of technical data about them. 
Lawrie
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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Yes OK but it seems that the drizzle feature, a software possibility is only a dedicated complete Meade system, mount with goto tracking and autostar suite with ccd. Is that work actually with the declared performance by the retailer Meade? I consider him as for the momment.
I have not a Meade system mount plus goto plus OTA but just an assembled mount from orion, an OTA from china the 152-990 refractor and I am looking for a performed ccd camera for planets (photometry applications on Venus for the least) and some dso views but with photometry applications also (stars and comets). Sony exview chips are well ok for and not so expensive. If the drizzle possibilty is not for me, my problem remains.
I read here, that the DSI orion in B/W mode can be as sensitive as the meade one, do you have data for that.
in second hand, I cannot beleive drizzle ability to work with average mounts only, this cannot be a decisive system but only an improvment for something not enough on a mechanic ability and accuracy point of view. This shall be perfect mechanics improved handly and by testing and by improvments approaches.
stanislas
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jgraham
Postmaster
Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5364
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Using drizzle in real-time requires very precise control of the mount and good coordination between the mount and camera. However, drizzle can also be applied off-line to a stack of source images, in which case I suspect it makes use of the uncertainty that naturally occurs in the source data. I make frequent use of drizzle off-line to process my images.
The sensitivity of one-shot color arrays are probably similar, but for a given pixel size (collection area) monochrome arrays should be far more sensitive as there's no filter to attentuate the signal intensity. Simply operating a color array in a B&W mode isn't the same as a true monochrome array. There may be some offset as I wonder if operating a color array as a B&W camera is similar to binning in a monochrome array, I just don't have enough experience to comment on that.
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-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro (I & II), DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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John the conversion that was spoken of was changing the chip to the same as the DSI ProII, not just a B&W mode.
But like most I'll believe it when I see it.
Lawrie
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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mnaf
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 626
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Yes, I remember that one. It sounded like it was going to be a third party chip upgrade - not something I'd consider right off the bat.
Off topic: I had talked with a tech support guy at Orion and asked if they he knew of any mono cameras coming down Orion's pipe, basically a mono Starshoot DSC. I said I'd probably buy one if they did - he said he hadn't heard but that my comment was "good information to know". Never hurts to put the idea out there. I think a cooled mono Starshoot DSC would be a formidable camera (and at a reasonable price)... 
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~Mike
Atlas EQ-G
Orion 8", AT66ED
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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The subject is well the discussion of ccd chips ability (those from orion and meade) to perform acurate photometry jobs on stars and planets.
There is may be some other chips on the market but we consider the cost limitation.
Drizzle I think according to my understanding is at the mean point between single shoots and sum of video views shoots as the watec camera does without the offset compensation of views by software. Discutable on a pure performance basis.
In second hand, do you have informations or where we can find it concerning the actual linearity of those chips.
stanislas
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mnaf
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 626
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Hi Stanislas,
Chip data for most chips can be found here: Datasheetcatalog.com.
You'll need the chip (sensor) model number but you can usually find it on the manufacturer's website (Meade states it on their website). I'm sure there's other datasheet sites out there, also. I've found the chip datasheets helpful, particularly in researching between a mono camera vs. single shot color.
Mike
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~Mike
Atlas EQ-G
Orion 8", AT66ED
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Mike, I agree with you, a cooled mono, at a reasonable price, they would just have to design for a filter wheel or stick. Lets hope they heard.
Lawrie
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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stanislas
sage
Reged: 06/23/05
Posts: 260
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Thanks a lot, this shall a good start.
My preference will go to a B/W sensor with filters, it's more acurate and linear.
stanislas.
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Kim Miau
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 1117
Loc: Kluang, Johor, Malaysia
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QHY (Qiu Hong Yun) is the designer of Orion StarShooter. If you guys want to know more about the StarShooter, you can pm him or else. According to him, the StarShooter is going to be packed with the same chip as DSI II Pro (ICX419) and filters set. There are going to be several packages but I am not sure whether I am mistaken.
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-Robin
QHY CCD
My Astronomy Blog - http://www.astronomynotes.net
Meade 8" LX90 + LPI + QHY5 + Denk's Power x Switch S2 Diagonal
More equipments @ here
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1544
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Re: DSI choice: Meade D | |
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