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smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: Wilmington, NC
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Well after a long night aggonizing over what to do, and after getting the go ahead budget for an imaging set up, I'm now more confused that ever. Being so new to all of this, and knowing I will be doing this for many, many, many years to come, has made this one of the hardest choices of my life. The one good thing to say is that I do have a good budget to work with (3500$-3700$) What I asking you good people, is to vote on the set up you think is the better option.
Option One:
1. Atlas EQ-G Mount with GoTo Controller 1499.95
2. 80mm ED Apochromatic Refractor 529.95
3. #EQED Low Profile Dovetail Bar for Orion ED80 39.00
4. Deluxe Case for Orion 80mm ED Refractor 89.95
5. Orion EZ Finder Deluxe Reflex Sight 59.95
6. William Optics - ZenithStar 66 SD Telescope with 2" Dielectric Diagonal 448.00
7. William-Optics Apochromatic Field Flattener and 0.8x Focal Reducer for 66 to 90mm Telescopes 148.00
8. Ultrascopic 5mm Illuminated Reticle Eyepiece 169.95
9. #VR90 90mm (3.5") I.D. rings with three point adjustment 89.00
10. #VR125 125mm (5.0") I.D. rings with three point adjustment 99.00
11. 2X #VMM Male to male dovetail plate. For use of secondary equipment 138.00
12. #VSBS Side by side plate 159.00
13. AccuFocus Electronic Focuser 59.95
Total: 3529.70
Option Two:
1. Stellarvue 90mm Fluorite Triplet Refractor Black Telescope SV90T 1995.00
2. Atlas EQ-G Mount with GoTo Controller 1499.95
3. William Optics 2 Inch Dielectric Diagonal with Carbon Fiber Plate 168.00
Total: 3662.95
The CCD I will be using with either set will eventualy be the Meade DSI PRO II with filters 699.00
Right now I will be learning on a modified spc900nc
It would be nice to hear why you think option one or two would be better for me.
Thanks a lot!
Neil
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Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1714
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You may also want to look at the Orion Starshoot II monochrome with filters. It is similar to the DSI Pro II but has a better filter wheel, TE Cooling and filters that block IR (which the Meade model does not have). It's $200 more but these improvements are well worth it.
As far as comparing the two scopes: one is $500, the other is $2000. You would still need a guide scope eventually and a lot of the accessories mentionned in your first option. But another option is to buy the guide scope first and get the imaging scope second. So you would start out with the WO 66SD. The WO 66SD can also be a good imaging scope.
A lot of people that get expensive refractor also get expensive mounts and expensive CCD cameras (e.g. S-Big). I am not sure that an expensive refractor makes sense with a DSI Pro II and the Atlas. You would almost have to upgrade your whole package.
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smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: Wilmington, NC
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Quote:
You may also want to look at the Orion Starshoot II monochrome with filters. It is similar to the DSI Pro II but has a better filter wheel, TE Cooling and filters that block IR (which the Meade model does not have). It's $200 more but these improvements are well worth it.
As far as comparing the two scopes: one is $500, the other is $2000. You would still need a guide scope eventually and a lot of the accessories mentionned in your first option. But another option is to buy the guide scope first and get the imaging scope second. So you would start out with the WO 66SD.
Yea, I know the second option will need more added to it ie (guide scope) for a complete set up, but I might not need to start out with all that stuff, and would go with quality over quantity. This is why I posed the question to people with far more experience than me. Trust me I'm not sold on either option. I'm just playing devils advocate.
As far as I CCD is concerned, I'm not going to worry about that too much right now, seeing that by the time I've gotten all this payed off, I might have tried out a few through my astronomy club. For learning I have thought it might be better to start out with the Meade DSI Pro. There is a sale on these for 228.99 with filters.
Thanks for your thoughts! 
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Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
Edited by smokin oakum (11/21/07 10:49 AM)
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1714
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The DSI Pro at $228 is a very good deal (and available only for a limited time as it is being discontinued). I would grab that one up. Just the filters are worth $200 if you buy them separatelly.
About the scopes, you may want to wait for other people's advice. I don't consider myself an expert. I am more of an intermediate.
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smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: Wilmington, NC
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You're a pro compaired to me and a very nice person to help me out with a difficult choice. 
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Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
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Zyxlor
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 2093
Loc: St. Cloud, FL
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You're going to find you'll need most of the stuff on list one and end up buying it bit by bit anyway, so may as well do it now.
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Zyxlor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tak TSA-102S
Tak EM-200 Temma 2
Meade 10" LX200 OTA now removed from forks-
OTA is now rigged to go onto Tak mount.
Celestron EB80 Piggy backed on TSA102 or 10" SCT which ever is in use!
Meade DSI Pro II (a great guiding camera!)
Philips Toucam
Philips 900NC
SBIG STL-11000M
Astrodon LRGBH 50mm
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
.gif)
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Disclaimer: I am not an expert. (But I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express once!  )
Neil, if it were me, I would just take a deep breath and realize that my goals and skills will change with time. This will necessitate that I will probably be selling and buying new stuff at some point. Decent astro gear will hold it's value relatively well over time. If you are not against buying some stuff used, you can save a good amount of cash.
1. Do you already own the modified webcam? If you are planning to purchase one for modification, I would spend the $$ on an original DSI, which will, IMHO, outperform it, and can be found cheaply used.
2. If you are not going to be getting a guide camera to start off with, then I wouldn't worry about getting a guidescope just yet. In addition, if you are going to be imaging with the modified webcam, then your exposures will probably be limited to <30 seconds, before the noise gets too great. This is easy work for an accurately aligned EQ-G at the focal length you will be imaging to accomplished unguided.
3. Generally speaking, most advanced imagers have at least two OTA's. One for widefield work, and one for smaller objects. I don't think that owning a 66 and 80mm APO will cover the broadest range of targets. They are simply too close together in focal length, and the 80mm has too short a focal length to give great results on smaller targets. A better option might be two scopes that cover something in the 400-700mm and 900-1200mm range, for example. Soooo..
4. I would start with a lower focal length scope now, and probably the WO ZS66. Why?
(A) It will be easier to use unguided, which is what you are starting out doing.
(B) The webcam sensor is very small, and the wider FOV of the scope will allow you to fit more objects into the frame.
(C) If your next camera will be the DSII, the sensor is still relatively small, so this will still allow a decent area of sky to be covered.
(D) It isn't hugely expensive, but does have a dual speed focuser, and better build quality than any of the Synta clones.
5. Don't forget software! You will probably want some capture software, that also has a focus assist routine with real-time FWHM values. You will also need some software that aligns and stacks the images. Photoshop will most likely be a need as well. There are lots of software apps that can fit all or some of the needs, at a broad range of prices.
6. Don't forget dew straps and a controller. If not, be prepared to borrow your wife's hair dryer each evening.
7. As for quality of the scopes: The Synta clone 80ED's out there all can take good/great images. (I have one) However, eventually, you will probably want to upgrade the focuser to a two speed crayford, if you don't go to an electronic focuser. At the shorter focal lengths, the critical focus zone gets very small, and it is a pain to get it just right with the stock focusers on the Synta clones. I am not sure how accurate/fine the focusing is with the inexpensive motorized focusers made for the Synta scopes. Not saying they are bad, just that I haven't used any.
Hope this gives you some more to think about...
Gary
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Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: Wilmington, NC
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One more consideration to maybe amend is the William Optics - ZenithStar 80mm II ED APO Refractor with 1.25" Dielectric Diagonal with case 598.00
How does this compair with the Orion 80ED? For 69 more you get a better focaser at least. It all depends on how the optics stack up. Anybody care to chime in?
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Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1714
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So Gary, would you suggest something like a WO 66SD (focal lenght 400mm) and a Orion or Skywatcher 100ED (focal lenght 900mm)? The Skywatcher Equinox 100ED comes with a nice two speed focuser.
http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=124&class1=1&class2=101
The disadvantages of the less expensive WO refractors from what I have read is that they likely use FPL-51 glass (nobody knows for sure as WO is not saying) as opposed to the better FPL-53 glass used in the Orion 100ED and Orion 80ED. Skywatcher has the Equinox series 80ED and 100ED that has a focuser similar to the WO focusers but they use the better FPL-53 glass. This might be the best combination.
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 271
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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I'm no pro, but it sure is fun to think about this stuff.
I'd choose Option One unless you really mean "many, many, many years". However, I'd drop one of the refractors and associated accessories, and put a SCT on that rig. Would be nice to be able to have the longer FL and resolution to work with at times.
If you do really mean gear that you'll prize forever, I'd go back to the CFO and try to up the budget a bit. Then it's Option Two except with an even better mount (maybe a Losmandy G11). Then start figuring out what to hock to get the camera and rest of the quality gear to match 
Geeze these are tough decisions eh.
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Meade 80mm APO
Celestron C6
CGE, CG-5 GT
DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, ST-2000xcm
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smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: Wilmington, NC
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The budget is pretty much set in stone right now, and if I try to up it, it will cost me more in divorce attorney fee than ten of these scopes. I'm lucky to have this amount to work with if you ask me!
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Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 271
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Exploring a bit: If you dropped the 80mm, finder, it's adaptors & rings, and elect. focuser, that's about $850 you could put to a 8" SCT (which should have a usable finder scope). I think you'd want to add a focal reducer too, but it still wouldn't up the budget much. Just another option.
I'm surely not one to talk. I held my budget below 2500.
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Meade 80mm APO
Celestron C6
CGE, CG-5 GT
DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, ST-2000xcm
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Recommending scopes is really a tough call, because so much depends on the camera to be used (pixel size, sensor size, etc.), and Neil hasn't really decided what that will be yet. There is also a lot of personal preference involved, regarding brands, accessories, perceived quality differences, etc. I personally think that either the WO ZS66 or an 80ED would be a good option for the wider field scope. The longer FL scope choice should be made, I think, after some experience has been gained, and a camera selected.
Regards,
Gary
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Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1714
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Gary,
One thing that I notice is that you have a Celestron 80ED. If I am not mistaken that has a rack and pinion focuser. The Orion 80ED and 100ED both have a Crayford focuser which is much better. Not as good as the WO or the SW Equinox focusers but still decent enough. The electric focuser allows for smalller adjustement in focus. The only thing that I don't like about the Accufocus is that it takes a long time to make coarse adjustements to focus. I have been doing coarse focusing manually even though Orion does not recommand doing that as it is not good for the Accufocus mechanism. But given the Accufocus is only 60$, I'll simply buy a new one if necessary.
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 271
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Gary, you're certainly right about that. There is a lot to learn, and each selection becomes tailored to your equipment (or future equipment).
I apologize if my personal preference was interpreted as a recommendation. I didn't intend to recommend a particular setup, but rather that if he wants two scopes, then I believe that a longer FL scope is both desireable and not outside his budget. I should be more careful with my wording.
Al
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Meade 80mm APO
Celestron C6
CGE, CG-5 GT
DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, ST-2000xcm
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Hey YQ (?),
Correct. The original R&P was actually pretty good, especially after I regreased it. It seemed to me to be better than the standard Celestron R&P. I really needed/wanted the fine focus option, so I have since replaced the focuser on my 80Ed with a dual speed crayford. However, I had to modify the tube, as the Celestron version of the Synta 80ED uses a threaded connection between the focuser and tube, and I couldn't find any aftermarket manufacturer that addressed that issue. They were all the three screw type like the Orion.
One issue that I had heard regarding the Orion crayford, was that it used to have issues holding heavy cameras/CFW's when near the zenith. I am not sure if that issue has since been addressed, I would assume that it has.
Slow focusing isn't too much of an issue, when imaging, since your setup is pretty static, and you would only be making very fine adjustments anyway. I couldn't get a definitive answer if the Orion electric focuser would fit my Celestron, so I didn't get it.
The new Celestron Onyx 80Ed is more money, but has the better focuser.
Regards,
Gary
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Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Hey Alan,
No apologies necessary. Everyone's experiences lead to them forming opinions based on their successes and failures. Neil asked for for opinions and recommendations, and that is exactly what you (and all of us here) have given. I wasn't responding to your post, but just blabbering on in general!
In fact, an SCT would definitely make a pretty good longer FL second scope, especially if he wanted to try his hand at planetary imaging as well. The downside is that for virtually all DSO imaging, a focal reducer/corrector would be needed, and in that case, it might be better to get something with the focal length desired without having to use a reducer. Of course, depending on the optics chosen, you still may need a flattener, and then that opens up another can of issues.... sigh...
Regards,
Gary
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Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1420
Loc: Wilmington, NC
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Quote:
Recommending scopes is really a tough call, because so much depends on the camera to be used (pixel size, sensor size, etc.), and Neil hasn't really decided what that will be yet. There is also a lot of personal preference involved, regarding brands, accessories, perceived quality differences, etc. I personally think that either the WO ZS66 or an 80ED would be a good option for the wider field scope. The longer FL scope choice should be made, I think, after some experience has been gained, and a camera selected.
Regards,
Gary
Thaks for your input Gary. It's making me think I should first figure out a CCD, and build around that.
Maybe I should start with something like,
Option three:
1. Meade DSI PRO II (Deep Sky Imager) Monochrome w/RGB Color Filter Set and AutoStar Suite 699.00
2. Atlas EQ-G Mount with GoTo Controller 1499.95
3. Solid Aluminum Dovetail Bar for WO ZenithStar, Orion Express, 39.00
4. William Optics - ZenithStar 66 SD Telescope with 2" Dielectric Diagonal 448.00
5. William-Optics Apochromatic Field Flattener and 0.8x Focal Reducer for 66 to 90mm Telescopes 148.00
6. Orion EZ Finder Deluxe Reflex Sight 59.95
Total: 2893.90
Which leaves me 600-700$ to play with or upgrade! (software maybe ?)
As far as software is concerned, I already have photoshop, K3CCDTools, Registax, Virtural-Dub, and PPMcentre. The DSI II comes with it's own software. What else do I need?
I just want to point out that the Atlas with this setup is overkill, but with this setup the WO would become my guide scope in the future and the DSI II would become my guide camera. I would at that time be more experienced and would upgrade the main scope and imager. The mount at that time should pull its own weight.
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Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1714
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Gary,
The Orion focuser usually needs to be improved by doing the following:
http://www.helixgate.net/ed80mods.html
The focuser also often needs to be tightened by screwing the two small set screws under the focuser. You can also get an electric focuser from Orion (which includes a hex key that allows you to tighten the set screws):
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=focusers/~pcategory=accessories/~product_id=07395
http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=29&class1=1&class2=101
YG
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1714
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Neil,
That sounds like a good plan. Be careful, the WO focal reducer that you want is version II (not version I). The link that you showed is version I which is not as good as version II.
I would perhaps also suggest Nebulosity for 45$ and Noel Carboni's Astronomy Photoshop actions. But you can get those later on. You may also want to get a dew zapper from scopestuff.
Although not necessary, the EQmod (which requires an EQDIR adapter) sounds kind of cool.
http://www.store.shoestringastronomy.com/products_eq.htm
See also this thread:
EqMod Thread
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