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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Dear All:
I am considering trying my hand at astrophotography (emphasis on considering). That said, I’ve read enough to be nervous about doing so. My question is whether I can use my current equipment or would I just be setting myself up for frustration by doing so. My target would be various DSOs from a fairly light polluted location (suburban San Diego). Here is what I currently have:
Scope: Vixen ED100sf (f/9) and Celestron C9.25 (f/10)
Mount: CG5, goto version
Camera: Nikon D40
No guide scope, no T-ring
I imagine one option would be to get a Nikon T-ring, connect my D40 to the ED100sf and put it on the CG5 mount. This would require only one additional purchase (the T-ring). My concern here is that the D40 does not seem to be the ideal candidate for astrophotography. Moreover, I’m not sure if I would need a guide camera given that the ED100sf is a relatively slow telescope.
I’m not in position to spend a ton on money on new equipment right now. That said, I’d rather wait to get the right equipment than to start off with something that is going to be more frustrating than enjoyable.
My question for those willing to venture an answer is: Should I give it a try with what I have or would I be better off waiting until I can afford a more user friendly camera (e.g., a Canon digital SLR or some type of dedicated astrophotography CCD) and/or a guide camera for the CG5 mount?
Any input would be appreciated. Thanks! Steve
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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Ken_G
journeyman
Reged: 06/09/09
Posts: 7
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Stephen,
Just a newbies .02, I decided to give it a go despite my less than ideal equipment so I could work on my processing skills and see if I really enjoyed the imaging aspect of this hobby.
I’m just starting out with a similar setup, but with a faster refractor (Nikon D40, CG5, C8 with 6.3 reducer and 90mm refractor with f4.5 reducer/flattener).
The camera has been a bit of a frustration. I use a laptop and a mask to focus. No live view and the free Nikon software seems limited at best. I’m using the IR shutter release, so a large number of subs and subs longer than 30 seconds are tedious. There are work arounds, but adding them all up, I will probably just get a Cannon for dedicated astro use if I continue. That said, a search will show some great pics with the Nikons.
The mount seems adequate for short, unguided (30 sec. to 1 minute) exposures with either tube. The shorter fl. refractor is more forgiving than the C8. I wont try it with both, will have to get a lighter guide scope as well as a guide camera.
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Ken
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nofxrx
Vendor (HyperCams & Mods)
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 2501
Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
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Let me see if I can help...
1)The Nikon is NOT a bad choice for AP..it has one of the best CCD sensor's in it.The Sony 6mp that is also used in the QHY8 CCD cam.It has GREAT potential.The ONLY reason why the Nikon is not the best choice is because Nikon's do not produce a TRUE RAW image.No matte what you do there will always be SOME bit of image compression done to the image before it is even saved to the memory card. There is a way around this.It is called Nikon "Mode 3".It is a MAJOR PITA,BUT,is also very well worth it.I used Mode 3 with my D50 and D40x for some of my best images.I have yet to get an image with my Canon.
2)The ASGT mount is about the smallest mount useable for AP(IMHO).Check out Jim Solomon's site.He has been using the ASGT for years with small tubes and has produced some of the best DSLR images I have seen.
So the mount too has potential.But you have to tread carefully.Balance will have to be very good in order to get good images.
3)You will need an AutoGuiding setup very quickly once you get setup and start imaging.It will be tough.You might want to look into using an "Off Axis Guider" like teh Orion version.This will allow you to manually guide your images for now using a simple reticle eyepiece until you can afford another cam to guide.Manually guiding is NOT for everyone.I know a small handful of people that do it.Others just cant take it(I have some pretty serious back issues that prevent me from sitting at the scope for hours on end...).Then check out AstroMart/etc for a used Meade/Orion DSI(should be less than ~$125 for 1st-Gen DSI's).And(I know,it never ends..LOL)you will also need a ShoeString Astronomy GP-USB Adapter.This is used to allow the comp to "talk" to your mount.All this would give you full autoguiding capabilities useful for exp's over 30-90sec(which is what you will be limited to without a better mount..).This is of course assuming you already own a laptop.
4) yes,you will need the T-Ring specific for your make/model DSLR.AND you will also need a 2" Tadapter/nose-piece.
5)If it were my setup(and there was not a big budget either) I would get some form of reducer/field flattener for the ED100sf since the native F/9 is rather slow.
Maybe something like the William Optics vIII FF/FR..but that is rather pricey.That would be the best one IMHO.So if you cant afford one now..save up and get one later on.Dont be fooled by those cheap F/5 focal reducers that are everywhere and are very cheaply made and will produce way more abberations/CA than you want in your images..not worth the $30-50..
SO,this doesnt really answer your Q's on whether or not to go ahead and try it or wait..
I would do it..that is just me.I would put myself into debt to do it,but I would do it.. 
If you dont want to spend any money more than the Tring and Tadapter,then I would still try it.Those pieces shouldnt cost more tha $40 total.
Then,you will need to get REALLY good at your Polar Alignment.If your ASGT is the newer style with the upgradeable firmware then you should have the Celectron Polay Aligh Routine.I dont know how well it will work on the ASGT platform,but on my CGE it puts me within 1arc*min with only 1 iteration.Which is good enough to go 15min(AG'd of course).
Also,the LOWER the focal length=the lower the need for autoguiding.The lower the F-Ratio=the less exp times needed.
I.E.: Take an image for 10min oh the ED100sf @ F/9. Or take a 8min exp with the ED100sf @ ~F/7..OR,take a 5min exp with an ED80 @ F/6...all getting slighlty wider FOV's the lower you go.
You might want to also try your hand at WIDE field AP.
Take your favorite lens and the ASGT out to a nice,dark spot,and shoot a bunch of <3-5min.You shouldnt be able to see any trailing(as long as yoru PA in really good),or any PE(Periodic Error.That is what makes a mount "bad" when imaging.It means the errors in the worm gears and the internals of the mount),which would result in some great WIDE field images.
You will fall in love with the hobby/obsession..because you will have some killer WIDE field images..instead of having a migraine trying to get a manually guided image with the ED100sf.
Yeah,so that is my advice.If you go for it.Plan on doing MOSTLY(you can still try and shoot with the ed100) Wide Field imaging. If you dont=save up a couple grand(IMHO ~$4k for a GREAT:Mount[which is where most of your money in AP should go..],Scope,Adapters,Software for processing,more glass to use as guide scopes or as wider FOV imagers,and a GREAT DSLR like th T1i or 450D.
Hope I was able to answer some of your Q's!!! and dont just take my word for it..these are just my opinions and someone will always think that I am wrong.
Sleepy time now :sleep:
Good luck!!
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Brent Oliver
WO-66SD*WO-Megrez102ED-Special Edition*Super C8 Plus*
CGE Pier-Mounted
Some Cameras,some Filters
HyperCams&MODS
My Gallery
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Very helpful comments. I should mention that my camera is actually the D40x, not the D40 (I seem to always forget to ad the x at the end). Lots to think about. One thing I had not thought about (but perhaps should) is putting my D40x on the mount and using my 70-200 f2.8 lens (awesome lens in general). I was not thinking wide angle but perhaps this is the best way to get started. This will give me a chance to experiment with exposure and processing and to get a sense of astrophotography in general.
Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful. 
Thanks! Steve S
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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zAmbonii
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 848
Loc: Ypsilanti, MI
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What kind of lenses do you have for your Nikon?
Somewhere to start may be a direct connection of the camera to your mount and doing some unguided stuff with your camera + lenses. This way you can work on your image taking and processing workflow without any worries about messing with connecting the camera to the telescope....and it should involve minimal money outlay.
If you like what you see and want more then you can worry about connecting the camera to the scope later. With the camera + lens you also will be able to gather what you can get away with because of the light pollution.
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Check out my Astrophotos on Flickr
C6-N 150mm f/5 Newtonian
CG-5 ASGT mount
Canon 300D self modded + IDAS LPS-P2 FF
Meade 70AZ + Meade DSI for autoguiding
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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I have three lenses that would potentially work.
1) Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM
2) Nikon 18-200mm, 3.5-5.6 G ED-IF AF-S VR
3) Nikon 70-200mm, 2.8D AF-S ED VR
I'm assuming higher magnification is better? I also have a Nikon TC17E II, not really a lens. Increases the reach of the 70-200 lens by 1.7x - up to 340mm while maintains all of the lens functions. I was thinking of using the 70-200 and TC17E together. I could easily mount this on the CG5.
Two quick questions. IS higher magnification better or would I be better off starting with a wider angle lens? Also, does it make sense to try to use Vibration Reduction (Image Stabilization for Canon users) or is this going to be confused if using an equitorial (tracking) mount? Very interested in giving this a try. Any tips on how to successfully do so would be appreciated.
Thanks! Steve S
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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Jeffrey Sugden
sage
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 383
Loc: Akron, OH
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Start off with your lenses and do widefield. It is much more forgiving for unguided work. Get the Shoestring USB IR controller and I recommend ImagesPlus Camera Control. You can do a lot with that while you save up for autoguiding gear. And learn a lot about stacking and processing in the meantime.
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Jeff
WO ZS 80FD
Celestron FS80
Celestron FS80WA
Meade SN6
Cave Newt 6" F8 (project)
SAC 8-II
Meade LPI
Philips SPC-890
Orion SSAG
Nikon D40
EQ-6 (SynScan upgrade)
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bedowinn
member
Reged: 07/17/09
Posts: 20
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I am also researching getting into AP.
I stopped at the Starizona booth at PATS yesterday and a fellow named Dean showed me some pretty cool shots taken with both a DSLR and a QH8Y (?). The shots were unguided and exposure time was 30 sec.
The key to the shot was a fast scope. They have a gizmo (Hyperstar) that replaces the sub-reflector on the celestron SCTs. It converts (short circuits) a normally F10 scope to a F2 or F1.9. When you need an F10 scope the stock parts can go back on.
I believe the pics he showed me came from a 9 1/4" Celestron. Any way, converting a 9 1/4 SCT to hyperstar might be less expensive than a new faster scope.
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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All helpful feedback. Thanks! I think I will start out with my f/2.8 70-200 lens (at the wider setting) and see what that does for me. If I get hooked (distinct possibility), it sounds like doing something with my SCT (either a qualify focal reducer or Hyperstar adaptor) is a good way to go. Alas, that would probably require an upgrade to the mount, which is what makes starting with the camera lens more attractive initially. Very happy to hear that you can do decent work with 30 second exposures. Looking forward to trying this out with my current set up. Thanks again for all the feedback.
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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thyrymn
member
Reged: 07/26/09
Posts: 44
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Quote:
Let me see if I can help...
1)The Nikon is NOT a bad choice for AP..it has one of the best CCD sensor's in it.The Sony 6mp that is also used in the QHY8 CCD cam.It has GREAT potential.The ONLY reason why the Nikon is not the best choice is because Nikon's do not produce a TRUE RAW image.No matte what you do there will always be SOME bit of image compression done to the image before it is even saved to the memory card. There is a way around this.It is called Nikon "Mode 3".It is a MAJOR PITA,BUT,is also very well worth it.I used Mode 3 with my D50 and D40x for some of my best images.I have yet to get an
image with my Canon.
why does the qhy run 1500 and the d40 399?
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bedowinn
member
Reged: 07/17/09
Posts: 20
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Volume.
Apparently, there are more folks out there buying DSLRs like the Nikon to take stills of their progeny drooling and shoving mac and cheese up their nose than there are astrophotography aficionados.
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thyrymn
member
Reged: 07/26/09
Posts: 44
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Maybe I should ask another way...
Why would I buy a dedicated 6mp imaging camera when I could buy a d700 full frame camera for 600 more or a d40 for 900 less?
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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I'm intrigued by thyrymn's question. I've wondered the same thing myself. Even if I were to buy a dedicated astro camera, not sure why I would not go with a Canon DSLR. I'm sure there are advantages to the dedicated astrophotography camera. Just not sure what they are at this point.
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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antimorris
sage
Reged: 08/16/09
Posts: 245
Loc: San Antonio-ish, TX
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On a semi-side note here, I have a D40 and have been using it unguided on an Alt-Az mount with the CPC 800. It has been working quite well for me, the limitation is my processing skills with these astro shots, once I get over that limitation I will probably want a wedge to extend the length of the shots. I also just got the Shoestring USB control (using it with DSLR Control from Stark Labs) and it works like a charm!!
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Anna
CPC 800 XLT w/FeatherTouch micro-focuser
Orion EON 80ED
unmodded Nikon D40
Meade DSI II Pro with ATIK Filter Wheel & Outback Razorback Cooler
---------------
Morris Astronomy
My Astro Blog
"sic itur ad astra"
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Anna:
Thank you for your post and the link to your pictures. Great work. Very inspiring. The pictures of the Dumbbell and Ring Nebulas are outstanding. I think I will give the D40x a try before investing in any additional equipment. May I ask, do you shoot in raw? If so, do you have to do anything special to get these type of shoots? For my terestial shooting, I use mostly the JPEG setting. My guess is that this is not ideal for astrophotography. I really like your photos in general. Any additional information on how you get the photos would be most appreciated.
Thanks! Steve S
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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antimorris
sage
Reged: 08/16/09
Posts: 245
Loc: San Antonio-ish, TX
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Steve -
I am still learning myself and am sure that alot more could be done with the stacks to get better processing, but I am glad that you like them - what I have been able to get out of 25-30 s exposures on my Alt-Az frankly surprised and delighted me. I do always shoot in RAW (even for the moon shots), less compression means more data, and more data means better pictures. I dont do anything special, just have been trying to take more and more subs. The first few weeks I would just shoot 10 subs of each object, then move on to something else - I just wanted to see everything every night .... I am learning that that is not the way to go and I really should commit to one, maybe two objects a night and just get a ton of exposures of each, especially in Alt-Az, the stacking of more and more subs REALLY helps. Until now I have just sat out there with my little IR remote and clicked it every 30s which is probably the reason I stopped with only 10 or so per object ... this Shoestring IR box is going to let me use DSLR Control (from Stark Labs) to program the amount and time so I dont have to just keep clicking the button. I am really looking forward to that!
I was/am kinda like you - I wanted to see what I could get with the equipment I had before I started putting alot of money into astrophotography. If I was getting nothing out of the D40 (which is actually a pretty good astro camera cause of the CCD chip in it) then I wasnt going to spend alot on a dedicated astro ccd (as you can see in my signature I have just purchased a Meade DSI II Pro, so I gave in pretty quickly cause I was happy with what I was getting) ....
I am still going to be using my D40 though because I think I am getting good results with it for what I am using (ie an Alt-Az mount) and I was never planning on going for magazine-quality photos - just wanted to show off what I am seeing.
I think I have gotten sidetracked .... how I get the photos ..... basically I just set my camera up to shoot in RAW, set it for the remote trigger and generally put it on either 25 or 30s exposure time (yes I could use bulb, but with the Alt-Az I only rarely am able to go beyond the 30s ... though have occasionally gotten up to 60s). (EDIT: I will be using BULB with the Shoestring for future shots as I can program the time I want with the computer)
I take as many as I can, then stack them along with the darks and flats (I havent been using Bias frames) in Nebulosity. Then I transfer it over to PS CS2 and start tweaking away at it. My processing skills are slowly improving but I still have a long ways to go in that regards. Thats about it.
If you have any other questions I will do my best to answer them without the rambling :-)
I look forward to seeing your results - please post them once you get them!
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Anna
CPC 800 XLT w/FeatherTouch micro-focuser
Orion EON 80ED
unmodded Nikon D40
Meade DSI II Pro with ATIK Filter Wheel & Outback Razorback Cooler
---------------
Morris Astronomy
My Astro Blog
"sic itur ad astra"
Edited by antimorris (10/13/09 03:45 PM)
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Anna:
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you for your detailed reply. I'm looking forward to trying this out. One last question. I hear focusing is critically important with astrophotograhy. Do you do anything special for focusing or does the camera auto focus for you? Again, thanks for the detailed reply. Very helpful.
Steve S
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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antimorris
sage
Reged: 08/16/09
Posts: 245
Loc: San Antonio-ish, TX
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My camera wont auto focus (or run in any setting but "M") on the scope - the D40 (at least the regular version) relies on the lenses for auto-focus which is why non-computerized or non Nikkor lenses require you to manually focus ... esp without a lens on with prime focus there is no way for it to do an autofocus .... I made my own Bahtinov mask from a template I got online (cost about $4 of supplies at Hobby Lobby rather than the $20-30 most online places were charging and that was just because I didnt already have SuperGlue and an Exacto-Knife in the house for some reason) ... it works great and does a good job getting me focused.
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Anna
CPC 800 XLT w/FeatherTouch micro-focuser
Orion EON 80ED
unmodded Nikon D40
Meade DSI II Pro with ATIK Filter Wheel & Outback Razorback Cooler
---------------
Morris Astronomy
My Astro Blog
"sic itur ad astra"
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Stephen S
sage
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 214
Loc: San Diego, CA
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I had forgotten about the focusing from the lens issue with the D40. This is the same for the D40x. I'll make sure to include a focusing mask in my plans. Looking forward to giving this all a try.
Looking forward to posting pictures. Alas, I have a delightful 4 month old daughter at home. Looking forward to trying my hand at astrophotography but you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little slow posting pictures. My little one gets first priority. That said, I'm often up late at night anyway so... Looking forward to the day when I can get her (potentially) interested in astronomy.
Thanks! Steve S.
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C9.25 XLT (Arges), Vixen ED100sf (Liberty), Coronado PST (Sunny)
Celestron CG-5GT, Vixen Porta Mount
40mm Pentax XW, 27mm Panoptic, 13mm Ethos, 12mm Cemax,
7mm Pentax XW, 4.7mm Meade UWA, 8-24mm Celestron Zoom
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Ken_G
journeyman
Reged: 06/09/09
Posts: 7
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Hi Anna, Great stuff. I’m using a mask with my D40 to focus and seem to have an issue with the free Nikon software not allowing the IR remote to work as long as the software is connected to the camera. That makes for a rather slow process of shoot, start software, download, check focus, shutdown software , adjust focus, repeat. Have you found an easier way or am I missing something obvious? Thanks.
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Ken
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