NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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I've been doing research about getting back into astronomy and would like to get some opinions.
Everyone who I've talked to says that the mount is the most important piece of a AP setup. My question is, would it be best to start with a smaller refractor/reflector on a CG5/SVP mount or a larger SCT/MAK on a Atlas/CGEM? I realize there's a pretty fair difference in price, but how long could I go with the smaller mount before needing (objectively of course) a larger one?  I've seen a ton of great AP shots taken with 80ED's...
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Estonia
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Probably best to start on a big mount with a small scope.
Means you can upgrade scopes later while keeping the mount that's good and you know how to use. And you can also begin with a more forgiving focal length.
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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That's kind of my thinking now. Plus, higher quality small scopes are cheaper than larger ones 
So would you start with the CG5/SVP or Atlas/CGEM? Will the CG5 allow me enough growth to last me awhile?
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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If I had it to do again, I would go Atlas/cgem with a smaller scope (80-102mm ED). These scopes would serve you well and give you time to decide what your next scope purchase should be based on resolution and FOV that you would like to move to next, and already having the mount will ease the transition. Ive got a ASGT mount, while it does fine with a light load, it has needed a lot of tinkering to get everything to work with a larger scope. Its doing well with 18 lbs on it, but my life would be much easier with a bigger mount.
Just my thoughts....
-Mark
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Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Agreed. If I had a chance to start from the beginning again, I would have put MUCH more money into the mount and worried about OTA and camera upgrades later. Even the lower cost mounts have good carrying capacity, but they have quirks and need constant manipulating to get them to play nice. Not to say you can't get great images on them, but they are definitely more work.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Will a 80ED give me any raw viewing? It's far from a light bucket, so what can I expect to see visually?
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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RobertED
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/11/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Johnston, RI
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NKT, I own an Atlas mount...and absolutely love it!! (Mine's a Non-Goto). I have a C-11 and wouldn't go larger than that!! It would be great for a smaller SCT(C8 or C9.25) or a Big Mak!!!!
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Are you guiding?
And it seems they don't have the non-goto Atlas's anymore  I really wish I could just get a mount I could run via computer. Those seem to be a little cheaper also. I can do the go-to with Stellarium.
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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yock1960
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/22/08
Posts: 980
Loc: SW Ohio, USA
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I don't know if they are actually available, but Woodland Hills Camera still shows the non-goto Atlas:
http://telescopes.net/doc/2500/mftr/Orion/item/24337
Steve
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LXD75 GEM
Orion Starblast 4.5" Imaging Reflector
William Optics Zenithstar 66 SD APO
Meade DSI II OSC
Meade DSI III OSC
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
Televue Powermate 2.5x
Discovery 6" Dobsonian
Nikon Action Extreme 10x50's
Gallery
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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How big of a difference is there imaging wise between apochromatic and achromatic refractors? Is CA that big of a deal when imaging DSO's?
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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It depends on the scope, but yes, especially on the brighter stars. It can make a significant difference.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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So you'd recommend going with a smaller apo over a larger achro?
For example:
Orion 80ED $499
Orion 120mm f/5 achro $319
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Estonia
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As far as I know, chromatic aberration also has a nasty effect on focus.
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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NKT, the short answer is yes, the apo is much preffered over the achro. Ive seen a few posts from guys doing some really nice stuff with achro scopes, but its the exception to the rule.
-mark
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Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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nobbygon
member
Reged: 03/20/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Australia
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I was in this same situation about 5 months ago.
I decided to get a skywatcher EQ6 Pro goto (im pretty sure its called an atlas overseas), and on top of that sits a pretty basic 130mm newt. I use a meade DSI II pro. With this set up I can take pretty good astrophotos of pretty much anything.
Getting a decent mount made everything so much easier/better in terms of imaging quality.
If I were you I would start with a good mount.
Cheers, Angus
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Richard Turner
member
Reged: 01/25/09
Posts: 58
Loc: NC
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I have a Meade LXD75 mount and also a Celestron CGEM mount. The telescope I use for imaging is a Vixen 130mm f/5 reflector. My payload (scope, imgaging camera, guide camera, and finder guidescope) weigh about 14 pounds. For guided imaging, the CGEM produces better results. It has bigger worm gears and worms than does the LXD75. I have been able to get guided shots with the LXD75, but it's hit or miss. The mount requires some tinkering to get it to work just right. Even then it does not always guide accurately.
But for unguided images up to about a minute in length, the LXD75 does reasonably well.
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Richard Barton Turner
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Quote:
So you'd recommend going with a smaller apo over a larger achro?
For example:
Orion 80ED $499
Orion 120mm f/5 achro $319
In a heartbeat.
BTW, I use a 66mm APO right now for my DSO imaging. All of the shots in the gallery link in my signature were done with the AT66ED. I'm no pro, but it made a big improvement in my shots to switch to a small APO over a larger Achro. Just keep in mind aperature isn't as important in imaging as it is in visual observation. It has its place, but that isn't to say you can't accomplish great images with a small aperature scope.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Thank you all so very much for all the info and feedback! The CGEM it is!
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Well, just got finished talking budget with the wife. I don't think the CGEM is going to happen (unless I don't get a scope for it)
Would a C8 on a CG-5A be a decent starter setup? I could do prime unguided with the OTA or even piggyback my DSLR with my 50mm 1.8 for wideviews. That way I can still get decent DSO imaging but also some good planetary and star views. Or, should I go with the C6, letting me piggyback another small OTA?
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Estonia
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I'd caution against going with a setup you don't like.
One option, by the way, would be to not get the scope immediately, and instead use the mount for the camera, to do long exposure panoramas. I don't know of how the fixtures for that work though. But I'm no expert on this subject.
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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I did some looking on the net and found I can get a C6 OTA and CGEM mount for about $1700. I'm hoping the wife would be flexible on my budget 
I think that combo would give me a good foundation for AP and basic viewing. The CGEM is rated for 40lbs and the C6 OTA comes in at 10 lbs. 
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 699
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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I've heard the CGEM is louder than the Atlas and doesn't work with the EQMOD software- can anyone confirm that? I was researching this myself when I thought I was going to have to 'downgrade' from my G11 to a new mount and looking for a decent price. The Atlas + EQMOD (free software) was on the top of my list in that price range. Luckily for me, it appears I'm going to be able to move the G11 to my home observatory.
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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When you say louder, how much? As long as it's not a coffee grinder, I don't really mind.
I'm debating now if I should just start with the smaller scope and mount to save money for accessories. A C6 on a CG5A is only $999. That would leave plenty to get EP's and such...
Decisions, decisions...
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 699
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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The word coffee grinder has been used here, but others have disputed it. I don't have first-hand experience with either mount but had been reading posts here.
Use google with something like this:
cgem atlas noise site:cloudynights.com
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 699
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Quote:
I'm debating now if I should just start with the smaller scope and mount to save money for accessories.
If you want to do imaging, I really recommend getting the best mount you can afford first. I recently strapped my $15 Galileoscope to my Losmandy G11 and was able to image M27. Then when you're ready you can get a better scope. Even something like the reasonably priced Orion Starblast imaging reflector would give pretty good images I think.
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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So would I be able to mount the StarBlast on a CGEM? And what type of visual performance could I expect from it?
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 699
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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I also don't own a starblast- just throwing out some ideas for you. The Starblast is a fast scope, so it would probably have some coma visually, but as a reflector it won't have the chromatic problems that an inexpensive refractor would have. I think you'd be better off with a better mount and a cheaper scope to start with rather than medium prices for both- at least for imaging. I've found for doing visual work, I prefer my Dob. I hardly ever use my GEM for visual work.
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Thank you! You've given me some good stuff to mull over and think about
--------------------
CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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While I would LOVE to start out with the CGEM, the more I look at it the more it's unlikely I will be able to fit it into the budget. So that leaves me looking at the next mount down, the CG5A. It's rated for 35 lbs, giving me 17.5 lbs. of payload. The C6 is 10 lbs. and Orion 80ED is 6 lbs. How much extra weight would the mounting for the 80ED be? Would it be that much of an issue to go over the 17.5 lb. payload by a little?
--------------------
CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
Edited by NKT (10/13/09 01:06 PM)
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 699
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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My mounting hardware wasn't very heavy, but I've read it's a good idea to say well below the rated capacity for imaging. My G11 is rated for 60 lbs of equipment, but I only have a little over 30 lbs mounted on it. I think it mostly comes down to balance and tracking. Since you've got fairly short focal length scopes, that will help you avoid star trailing too. If you have problems, you may need to only mount one of your scopes at a time.
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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NKT, Im imaging with 18 lbs on an ASGT, with a lot of fine tuning of the mount, very careful balance and polar alignment, its possible but not easy. I would reccomend either or. The C-6 with 6.3 focal reducer is a great little scope, pretty common, so is the 80ed. Look at what kind of FOV you want and you cant go wrong with either one. Later, when youve got everything tuned up and a little experience, you could probabbly mount them both on the CG5 with good success.
For visual, you just cant beat a used 8" dob. Couple a hundred bucks and you dont have to worry about trying to have a set up that will do both, because in our budget, price range, its hard to have a "do all" scope.
Just some thoughts.....
-Mark
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Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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Doubleglaze
sage
Reged: 11/01/07
Posts: 201
Loc: Pacific NW
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Hi NKT - take a look at Kerry's web site - she did some great work with a C6 / CG5 setup.
http://www.weatherandsky.com/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=10&g2_enterAlbum=1
For myself, I started with my camera piggy backed onto my mount, no OTA. I shot at 50, 100, 200mm focal length to learn the quirks of my camera, and to figure out what software to use for capturing, calibrating, stacking, and processing the images, and to give myself the best chance of getting satisfying shots.
Then I moved to a 500mm OTA, having good confidence I knew what to do in order to capture and process images. Now I'm improving my techniques, learning the limitations of my camera and mount, and I feel confident in planning for the future. The upgrade and wish list is a mile long so I know I'll have lots to think about for a while.
Also, to me, taking any shot of any quality is a blast in itself independent of the results. Just capturing anything at all is a thrill, and the learning that goes with getting better shots, absorbing details about the objects you're imaging, and sharing it with others is a great way to spend an evening. Plan for the long haul and look for ways to enjoy yourself now.
I'm coming up on my 1 year mark for imaging, the results that I thought weren't awful and could be shared are here:
http://www.astrophotogallery.org/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/166
Nothing show-stopping but it's been fun figuring things out and making progress.
Cheers
Mark
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Vixen VMC260L / Sphinx SXD
Pentax 75 SDHF
Canon 40D / 50mm f1.4 / 100mm f2.8 macro / 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 / 200mm f2.8L
http://www.astrophotogallery.org/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/166
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Thank you both for the insight!
I guess upon more research and introspection, I decided to pair back my goals and expectations. Could I drop a ton of cash on a killer mount and mack daddy OTA? Sure, but would I be able to get the same enjoyment with a lesser setup...
I'm leaning towards the later. That is why I'm now looking at this set up:
Celestron C6S-GT
AT66ED 66mm f/6 ED
I can use the C6 for both visual and imaging. The AT66ED can be my widefield/guide scope.
Thoughts?
--------------------
CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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Sounds like a great combo! I wish I had had the sense to start with that setup!! Dont forget to factor in the cost of the focal reducer for the C6.
-Mark
--------------------
Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Is this the reducer I would need?
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=photo_accessories/~pcategory=astro-imaging/~product_id=05120
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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The CG5 is a coffee grinder for sure. Loud sucker at full slew speed.
I used a Starblast 4.5" and 6" stacked on a CG5 for quite a while. It worked just fine. I used the 6" to guide with the longer focal length and used the 4.5" to image most of the time. No detectable coma with my small chip CCDs.
About the EQMOD bit - I don't know for sure on the CGEM but I did have EQMOD working on my CG5 with the updated firmware which to my knowledge is pretty much the same thing the CGEM runs. I would definitely think it's possible. I have no way to confirm this directly, however.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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NKT, yes, thats the reducer. Ive never used one, so Im not sure if there are other manufacturers or if Celestrons is best.
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Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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nik hodges
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 757
Loc: UK
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mount mount mount!!! its the foundation of your set up. Dont start building on quick sand!
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AP900gto3
Flurostar 110/TAK TOA 0.75 reducer
Megrez 80mm triplet apo/moonlight focuser
8" LX200R/AP CCDT67 reducer/moonlight focuser
StarlightXpress SXVF-H16 camera/trutek filter wheel
DSI Pro II
Maxim DL/Maxpoint/PEMPro/CCDAP4/Sky6Pro/AdobePS3E
http://www.pbase.com/njh542/images2009
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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I understand that. And as I said, I would love to just blow the budget and get the CGEM mount. But that wouldn't allow me to get the other things I would need to get started. That's why I started looking at the results obtained by the CG5 mount and as long as I pay attention to my payload weight, it should suffice for quite a while. If I stay small on the CG5 I can always go the dob route to satisfy my aperture fever
--------------------
CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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I agree, as it has been said many times, the mount is key. Id love for santa to bring me a new CGE this year, but it aint gonna happen. The best I can hope for is a used Atlas, maybe....
We just have to work within budgets, a shiny new CGEM is a lot less fun to play with if you cant afford a scope or camera to mount on it .
many of us start with the ASGT, you MUST respect its limits, if you do, it will give satifactory results. I will say, however, there is a good chance it wont be long before you are lusting after something more substantial.
--------------------
Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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NKT
super member
Reged: 09/23/09
Posts: 159
Loc: CT
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Oh believe me. I started off looking small and it didn't take long and my starting setup begin ballooning 
I think I feel pretty comfortable with the results I've seen of C6/CG5 setups. If I can find a good deal on a 80ED or below, that should be able to work nicely with that setup. Now I just need to compile the list of all the "stuff" I'll need starting out (adapters, EP's, rings, etc...)
If I can get a couple years out of the CG5 I'd consider that a good investment 
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CGEM800
Orion 80ED
Canon XSi/Meade DSI II
Find fellow amateur astronomers: www.ScopeBuddies.com
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mark Jimenez
sage
Reged: 01/08/07
Posts: 339
Loc: Atlanta GA.
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FWIW, the little 66ED scopes from the various suppliers generally go for around $250 used over on astromart. They are excellent widefield imaging scopes and would compliment your C6 quite nicely. They are a nice way to save a few bucks and still get a quality scope, and your CG5 will thank you for it!!
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Celestron ASGT
Astro Tech 8" f4 Newt
QHY8
Meade DSI pro
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