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Of course, this is going to cause some issues with the monthly site wide competition (once again). 'Intermediate' imagers will start submitting their entries here rather than over in the CCD or DSLR forums. This isn't such a good idea IMHO.

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I just don't want to see real beginners decide not to participate in the monthly site wide competition because they have no hope against 'intermediate' imagers who really should be playing with the big boys rather than looking for an easy way to make it into the final round. We used to see quite a few 'beginner images' that were not taken by real beginners (which is not IMHO in the spirit of the competition).

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I don't disagree.. but isn't that the reason there's a rule that you can only win 3 times in a beginner catagory?

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Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com

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I guess the problem Charlie is that now the vast majority of us are perfectly entitled to submit their images in this category because 'Intermediate' imagers now belong in this forum (hence the name change). Pretty much everyone can legitimately argue that they are intermediate. I certainly fall into that category but it is hardly fair to compete against someone who has only been in the hobby for a short time.

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It's just my opinion for what it's worth, but intermediate imagers should be over in the main CCD or DSLR forums. That is where they can learn from the more advanced guys.

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With that logic, Who would be here to help/teach the Beginners?


As a side note: I was the main person the Jared singled out in January's discussion. He said that I had 15 years of experience. That was a TOTALLY FALSE statement. I may have started imaging 15 years ago, but I had many years that I never even touched my scope let a lone do any imaging. Since January, I have not posted any images anywhere (except for the Intermediate contests). I feel that I can help out beginners so thats why I stick around here. I only image in monochrome so I have nothing to offer in the "CCD Imaging" forum where 90+% of all images are in color. That being said, I have learned a ton from all the good people in this forum & CCD forum.

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Carl

My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory

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The purpose of this forum was to help new people reach a basic level of proficiency, at which point they move on up to the CCD or DSLR forums (where they can learn more advanced techniques).

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I agree 100% with this concept, except for the fact that there is a WIDE gap between the two forums. Just because somebody can hit a golf ball 300+ yards doesn't mean he ready for the PGA tour. There needs to be a middle ground. A lot of people feel intimidated the make that big of a jump. Thats why I advocate an Intermediate Forum as a middle ground to help ease the transition.

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Carl

My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory

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What if you got that gear second hand ? (most of my gear is second hand)

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Me, too!

I think it's more a matter of experience. Anyone who has shot more than a few dozen exposures and/or has used several different cameras isn't a beginner. A select few who make it past that level will become experts. The rest of us won't. If we restrict the CCD imaging forum to experts, only a tiny portion of CN's membership will use it. At that point, we may as well suggest that they set up their own discussion board rather than tie up CN resources for the use of a few individuals. We have a lot of beginners and their needs are very specific - we need a Forum for them. We have lots of intermediate and a few expert members - they should be able to share a Forum.

I know I don't go there; I was kicked out several years ago for using a DSLR and never went back even though I switched to SBIG at about that time. I do hang out in Beginner's to try to help folks.

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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro

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IMHO imaging contest could be based on different equipment classes. DSI level, SBIG level etc. This puts eveyone on a level playing field and the only thing then that is tested is their experience, not their equipment. Once again, imho.

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What might be fine, But how many different scenarios would have to be created to satisfy everybody? Would it JUST be based on the CAMERA, or the MOUNT, or the OTA? How could you put a dollar value on it? If somebody that never looked through a scope before won the Lotto, & went out & spent 50k on imaging equipment, how would classify him?

Or in my case, My imaging equipment is a AMT OTA, ATM MOUNT, ST200XM Camera. even with the auto guiding capabilities of the camera, I could get every few subs without egged shape stars b/c of the PE in my mount. It wasn't until I bought an AO8 that I actually made the next step. The AO8 equalized me with everybody else that has commercially made equipment. So if I had not put an AO unit in my imaging train, I could not even compete with the basic imaging newbie. So with that in mind, would there be a separate category for ATM equipment? I don't think so.

I think the best bet is to leave things the way they are.

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Carl

My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory

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All of your questions are valid, not to be confused with reasons why we shouldn't do it. An ATM category, sure why not?

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Why not?, probably because the moderators are stretched out the way things are now, If we added a half dozen NEW categories, who is going to maintain them?

I'm with you, It would be nice to compete on an even playing field, Where does one draw the line in categories? You could have so many different categories that there would not be enough members to fill them. A few specialty categories could only have one entry.

Maybe the thing to do is to move the Intermediate contests into the CCD forum & return this forums name back to "Beginners"

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Carl

My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory

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You can not categorize the skill of the imager by what equipment he or she is owns. There are lots of high end professionals with money to burn coming into astro imaging and they can afford to buy all the top end equipment. I know a guy in up state NY who has an ME, Takahashi Epsilon 250, and a SBIG 11000 and has no clue how to combine colors or get good guiding. Don't get me wrong my st-10 gets me more photons then my DSI Pro II but if I don't know what to do with the photons once I have them, then I'm a beginner, and if I have Maxim, AIP4WIN, or what ever and I don't know how to use them I'm also still a beginner. I think the best way to handle this is to have 3 forums Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced CCD Imaging and use the three win rule. Three wins and your out of beginner and move up to intermadiate, three wins in intermediate and you move up to advanced and once in advanced your on your own.

Just my HO

Bob

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I'm completely with Bob on this one. There needs to just be a clean division. Leave the beginners segment to the beginners, and the CCD/DSLR imaging as the stage for the advanced competitions. Move Intermediate into its own. As it stands today there's beginner, solar sys, sketching, dslr, and ccd competitions that have finalists that are thrown into the pool against each other. There's nothing for the intermediate group except the exclusive "bright" and "DSO" competition. So "Intermediate" is sort of one foot in the door one foot out from any angle. Also people will still come in to each section to help. Most of the help I've gotten in the beginners section was from advanced imagers who usually reside in CCD but hang out in beginners section constantly. Are there stronger and weaker competitors? Sure. Great. How boring would it be if everyone were the same skill level?

I don't agree with breaking it up based on how much one has to spend or type of gear. That's the fun part of the competition. Nothing says I love you like winning with a $180 starblast scope and a $300 DSI vs someone with a $2000 APO and a $4000 SBIG. Seriously though, this is where the skill aspect comes in to play. You can own a Bugatti Veyron for $2M, but if you don't know how to drive the car what good does 1001 horse do you anyway? You'll wreck it into the wall while the guy with the $12,000 civic takes off for the victory. I'll take my entry gear and clear skies over having top end gear and being in the middle of L.A. for example. Gear is not everything, skill and conditions play just as important of a part.

BTW I am one of those hopeless people with modest gear who continually submits in the CCD and Solar Sys competitions knowing I don't have a chance to get out of the gate much less cross the finish line against the pros there. It doesn't sway me from entering as I want to learn, and it's not just about winning. Each time I don't win, I walk away with new strategy and techniques to try. When I first started out I never imagined winning the beginning imaging competitions either. Here I am with three under the belt. It's progression, and a sign that I need to move along to learn more. Winning these competitions doesn't exactly do anything for anyone's "professional astrophotographer" career anyway. It's for fun, and it helps as a benchmark.

...and now I've officially beaten this old subject to death single handedly...


On another note - if a seperate Intermediate section was held off due to resource issues, there are a ton of people who volunteered to help out where needed to make it happen. There was talk about this a while back and people were told to hang tight, there were some internal things being worked out first before anything would happen and that there were reasons changes and more moderators were not being considered. Something along those lines anyway. Whatever came of that discussion? Here's another positive perk by doing this: Those "advanced" imagers people used to complain about always submitting in the "beginner" competitions will probably be drawn more towards the "intermediate" section instead, which as a result will not run off so many beginners from competing. I personally wouldn't mind, because "Intermediate" is where there is probably the toughest obstacles anyway from a learning perspective, and thus need the tough challenges.

Ok I'm done, again.


As for the original point, the name change doesn't bother me, it's more fitting for what this section represents in its current state.

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-Josh

http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My AP Gallery

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Maybe you should just eliminate the beginner forum, and leave this place for people already taking pics to quible about catagorizing their contests.

I guess I'll just have to read books and scour the internet to learn enough to use this forum.

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Although the sarcasm runs more than a bit thick here I do understand where you're coming from. The thing is - folks do learn things here all the time. This is a very helpful group and it always has been. Many folks who started learning about imaging right here are now among the best on the board.

I think that many folks miss the fact that particularly in the case of the beginning imaging forum, the contests here are (or at least they should be thought of as) a fun adjunct to the learning process and a way to measure progress - they were never really intended to be a goal in and of themselves.

These forums are a very public place. So when you come here trying to learn (or help to teach someone) something, in a way it's sort of like trying to learn (or teach) something in the hallway of a busy mall - there are people everywhere and they all have their own agenda to one extent or another.

These contests (and the conversations we have about them) play out in that environment. That means that ultimately you can't stop a guy from entering his image here if he's bent on doing it. You're also not going to stop folks from having a wide variation of opinion on how things should be run - and we have no shortage of people here who feel free to speak their minds. Best to understand the environment you have to deal with and work with it.

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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy

Weston CSC:

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