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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning and Intermediate Imaging

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Wmacky
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New Orion "thin" OAG
      #6046535 - 08/26/13 08:20 AM

Looks like Orion has entered the world of Thin OAGs. My question would be if it is in fact as thin as a T Ring when used with the required adapters for a Canaon DSLR, such as the TOAG9. I can't wait to read the reviews as they come in.

http://www.telescope.com/Gift-Center/New-Products/Orion-Thin-Off-Axis-Guider-...


Edited by Wmacky (08/26/13 09:15 AM)


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6079250 - 09/13/13 07:11 PM

Where are all the gear heads?

Looks like no one has taken the plunge yet. I'm surprised there has been no interested here as it's the first "thin" OAG easily available in the US. I'd love to grab one and review it here, but I'm so new to this I'm afraid that my observations, and comments would be a little merit.....

I'm hoping that with the proper adapters attached it will be no thicker than a standard T Ring thereby replacing the T ring with no spacing changes?

Edited by Wmacky (09/13/13 07:16 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6079300 - 09/13/13 07:47 PM

I was thinking about ordering one. I'll let you know

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Adam E
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6079387 - 09/13/13 08:39 PM

Looks pretty neat, and it appears to possibly address one annoying problem I found with the TS OAG when I had one. The TS OAG only uses one set screw to hold the prism stalk in place. The single screw basically wedges the stalk against the opposing side of the body piece. The Orion OAG appears to use a set screw on either side of the stalk. I found that my TS OAG was prone to experiencing 'wobble' of the prism stalk unless I went Gorilla Monsoon on the set screw. Maybe the Orion OAG will be better about this.

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SMigol
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Adam E]
      #6079440 - 09/13/13 09:14 PM

I picked up one from the local office. It comes with a Canon and T ring adapter for the sensor end. Overall thickness of the assembly is 13mm. They use a special ring with "ears" that's recessed past the mirror. This ring allows slight rotation of the assembly - maybe 45 degrees. The pick off mirror can be moved sideways a little bit, too. The recessed ring and the mirror can be secured by two thumb screws. This seems to reduce chance of flexure.

Edited by SMigol (09/13/13 09:15 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: SMigol]
      #6079454 - 09/13/13 09:29 PM

The manual says it has a c mount adapter too. Ordered.

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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6081340 - 09/15/13 12:19 AM

Quote:

The manual says it has a c mount adapter too. Ordered.




Let us know what you think! I notice this OAG looks a lot like the Lacerta unit.


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: SMigol]
      #6081348 - 09/15/13 12:27 AM

Quote:

I picked up one from the local office. It comes with a Canon and T ring adapter for the sensor end. Overall thickness of the assembly is 13mm. They use a special ring with "ears" that's recessed past the mirror. This ring allows slight rotation of the assembly - maybe 45 degrees. The pick off mirror can be moved sideways a little bit, too. The recessed ring and the mirror can be secured by two thumb screws. This seems to reduce chance of flexure.




Up for more measurements?

I measured my T-ring from the outer edge of the canon EOS bayonet to the start of the threaded portion on the other side that accepts the T2 adapter nose piece.

I get 16.6mm

I'd love to know how the OAG measures in the same configuration.


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SMigol
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6081435 - 09/15/13 02:23 AM

I put the Canon adapter in place and measured it with my depth gauge and show 19.22 mm. This is measured from one side to the end of the flange bayonet. There might be a slight protrusion beyond the standard depth because of the thickness of the metal part. As best I can measure to the flange surface (the face of the bayonet) it shows 15.00 mm.

Stephen


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: SMigol]
      #6081445 - 09/15/13 02:53 AM

Quote:

I put the Canon adapter in place and measured it with my depth gauge and show 19.22 mm. This is measured from one side to the end of the flange bayonet. There might be a slight protrusion beyond the standard depth because of the thickness of the metal part. As best I can measure to the flange surface (the face of the bayonet) it shows 15.00 mm.

Stephen




Hmmm, I kinda confused as to your 2 different measurements?

I just dropped my T-ring between the jaws of my digital calipers and got 16.6mm total thickness -end to end.

This is with the EOS bayonet on one side, and T2 female threads on the other.

Sounds like you got 19.22 mm making this measurement? That could be an issue if you current imaging train already had perfect back focus spacing using a T-ring! Then again thats just 2.5mm difference. Are all T-rings about the same thickness I wonder?

Anyone know the total thickness of the EOS version TOAG9, and the Lacente OAG?

Edited by Wmacky (09/15/13 03:03 AM)


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SMigol
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6081479 - 09/15/13 03:31 AM

I don't have a Canon t ring to measure against, but my Pentax one is 14.47mm from end to end.

Here are some images, hope these help to clarify. My wiggly hands trying to hold the gauge and my camera at the same time makes accuracy a bit of a challenge.

Pentax T ring:


OAG with T ring:


OAG with Canon ring:


OAG with the Canon ring at shoulder:


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: SMigol]
      #6081490 - 09/15/13 04:02 AM

Thanks Stephen!

It is what I was thinking - 19.22

That Canon bayonet really seems to stick out from the main body compared to the T2 ring pic. That must be where the extra 2.5mm is coming from? Wish I had one in my hands, but alas, the Orion store is across the Country from me!

Just measured the thickness from the bayonet "Face" as you did and got 11mm! A 4mm difference from the Orion OAG. That should have also been a 2.5 difference so I don't know what that's all about

I think I need to just buy one......

Anyway, thank for those awesome pics. That was above and beyond!

Edited by Wmacky (09/15/13 04:15 AM)


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Thirteen
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6081665 - 09/15/13 08:31 AM

Sorry a little confused anout those measurements above? I am assuming when set up in place of a standard canon t adapter, the face to face measurement is the length that would be added to the imaging train. Does the thin OAG have the female T2 threads internal to the body? Or is that another adapter that needs to be added?

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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6081779 - 09/15/13 10:05 AM

I think if you read the manual it states that its just slightly bigger by 2.5mm or so.

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SMigol
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6083133 - 09/16/13 01:13 AM

There are T threads on the telescope side that are integral to the device - although these can be removed with a spanner to reveal a different thread, not sure what that size.

On the camera side, there are no integral threads. Instead, there are two different adapters, one is a T thread and one is a Canon mount. The Canon mount is slightly longer than the T thread.

Hope this helps.


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Thirteen
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: SMigol]
      #6083491 - 09/16/13 09:23 AM

Yes...helps somewhat. I am just confused when looking at the manual for the TOAG, it said the thickness was 10.5, where you measured 15.07. Not sure where that 4.5mm is. The face-down side of your OAG doesn't look flat to the table, which is why I asked about the threads. The manual states the step down ring is from M48 to T thread, does this add that 4.5mm backfocus length?

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Midnight Dan
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6083591 - 09/16/13 10:21 AM

The measurements in the photos above are end-to-end. Most vendors advertise "thickness" as how much it adds to the imaging chain (i.e. how much backfocus it eats up), NOT the end to end measurement.

When installed, one end or the other will have threads, or a bayonet, which will be internal to the mating component and will therefore not add anything to the imaging chain length.

-Dan


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SMigol
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Midnight Dan]
      #6083791 - 09/16/13 11:58 AM

Yes, the M48 to T thread adapter on the telescope side of the OAG does add some thickness. It appears to be about 2.5mm. I don't have a lens spanner wrench, so I can't remove it to measure more directly. If you had a system that could use that thread size, then you'd be able to reduce the length accordingly.

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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: SMigol]
      #6084594 - 09/16/13 07:51 PM

Quote:

Yes, the M48 to T thread adapter on the telescope side of the OAG does add some thickness. It appears to be about 2.5mm. I don't have a lens spanner wrench, so I can't remove it to measure more directly. If you had a system that could use that thread size, then you'd be able to reduce the length accordingly.




So 2.5 on the Tele side, and another 2.5 on the camera side when using the EOS adapter gets us to the over 15mm mark.

That makes it quite a bit thicker than a standard T-ring. I would be connecting to a C8 Edge T adapter that gives the proper backfocus with a normal T-ring. I'm thinking this won't work.
I believe the TOAG9 comes closer to the proper size. Of course it's double the price, and reported to be less than robust. The Lacerta Is more robust, but I believe it suffers again from the extra thickness issue!

Decisions, decisions.............


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Thirteen
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6084892 - 09/16/13 10:17 PM

Interested in your course because I am looking at it for the same purpose (Edgehd 8). I also am quite new to all this so don't know how much an extra 4.5 mm really matters. I was considering pairing this with the .7x focal reducer. The celestron info sheet says to stay within 1-3mm of backfocus specs or stars will elongate at edge of field. Basically I was hoping to use this in place of my t ring, but I am hesitating now. I would love to see this measured as-installed to see the actual impact to the imaging chain length. Orion claims 10.5mm, but that's not what I see here.

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Ranger Tim
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6085087 - 09/17/13 12:01 AM

Wish there was a review of this OAG along with the other affordable ones, i.e. Celestron, Teleskop Service, etc. I know this accessory is in my very near future. Hope there are enough stars for guiding!

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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Ranger Tim]
      #6085542 - 09/17/13 09:18 AM Attachment (47 downloads)

So getting ready for Okie-Tex I ordered Orion's new Thin Off-Axis Guider (TOAG). I had the scope set up from testing a new RA gear for my mount so I was excited to try this out and run it through it's paces before making the trek to the panhandle later this month. So Monday morning I got up and assembled the TOAG with my Canon 60D and StarShoot Auoguider. Got them both to focus at the same time on a distant house so I am good to go for star trials. Guess what, it has been cloudy ever since and predicted to be the rest of the week!! Arrggh!

The instructions recommend checking initial focus during the daytime on a distant object. I must agree this is prudent suggestion as it makes it much easier to changes things, make adjustments, etc. However, there are a couple of errors or inaccuracies in the instructions. First there is a reference to Figure 10 and there is no Figure 10. I also think the instructions would be better with a diagram showing which Allen screws to loosen to adjust the prism and the focus of the autoguider. Second it is implied that distance from the main camera to the center of the TOAG and the distance from the camera to the center of the TOAG should be the same. However, if you work on this assumption you will not be able to obtain focus on the autoguider.

In order to obtain focus the distance between the main camera sensor to the center of the TOAG and the distance between the autoguider sensor and the center of the prism need to be about the same. For my Canon 60D DSLR this distance is around 49mm. To get the distance between the autoguider sensor and the prism to be around 49mm a spacer is required. I used the 5mm spacer from the Orion T-Thread Spacer Ring Kit, (which thankfully I already had). I then loosened the screws close to the autoguider platform to refine the focus by slightly pulling out (about 1mm) the autoguider, (with the main camera in focus). Then moved the prism down so the assembly rests on the TOAG body to lessen the chance of flexure of the prism stalk.

I also removed the step down ring and I am using a modified Hotech Self-Centering Camera T-Adapter for the nose piece. It screws right into the M48 threads.

Also the instructions don't mention it but you can screw on the SSAG until finger tight. Then back it off to align the long axis of the opening with the long axis of the sensor. You can then use the three Allen screws to tighten this down. Works with the Orion spacer too as there is a lip in the spacer.

As soon I get a chance to do some real star testing I will post more info.

Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (09/17/13 09:34 AM)


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6085558 - 09/17/13 09:24 AM Attachment (77 downloads)

Here is a shot of the bottom of the autoguider mounting plate removed from the prism stalk. One Allen screw can only be accessed this way as the body gets in the way. Did this to align the sensor to the hole.

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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6085663 - 09/17/13 10:22 AM

Isn't there a 'thin' t ring out there? I thought scope stuff or agena had one. Does that other brand get you the correct spacing out of the box? Perhaps that is the best option?

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Thirteen
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6085725 - 09/17/13 10:57 AM

Ok this answers one of my questions. From that shot I see there is a little shoulder there on the bayonet mount (camera side) that stands the camera off the oag a bit. This is making more sense now. Thanks for the review and pics! This looks like it definitely adds more than the claimed 10.5mm.

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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6085831 - 09/17/13 12:06 PM

Your welcome! The guider is 10.5mm in width. The Canon adapter adds a little. That shoulder is part of the adapter not the TOAG body if that helps.

I was using the Tele Vue Wide T-adapter, (http://www.telescope.com/Tele-Vue-Canon-Wide-T-Adapter/p/8849.uts?keyword=canon) and they are within ~1 mm of each other in width.

Cheers!


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6086824 - 09/17/13 09:15 PM

Looks like the TS-OAG9 is 2mm less.

See diagram

http://www.teleskop-austria.at/information/zube-offaxis-ts/eos_TSOAG9.jpg


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6086859 - 09/17/13 09:35 PM

Quote:

Your welcome! The guider is 10.5mm in width. The Canon adapter adds a little. That shoulder is part of the adapter not the TOAG body if that helps.

I was using the Tele Vue Wide T-adapter, (http://www.telescope.com/Tele-Vue-Canon-Wide-T-Adapter/p/8849.uts?keyword=canon) and they are within ~1 mm of each other in width.

Cheers!




My standard T-ring also has this shoulder, but it fully inserts into the camera, and adds no additional thickness. Is that the case here I wonder? If so we shouldn't be measuring from the top of the shoulder, but rather below it!

Does this shoulder disappear into your camera when inserted?

Edited by Wmacky (09/17/13 09:38 PM)


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6087094 - 09/17/13 11:38 PM

A interesting discussion on this very topic (Thin OAGs, and Edge HD scopes)!

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2878


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6087554 - 09/18/13 09:17 AM

Good find, I forgot that one.

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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6087594 - 09/18/13 09:38 AM Attachment (31 downloads)

So the large shoulder does go into the camera. This is a standard Canon adapter. It also work with my Astronomik CLS-EOS clip filter in the camera. There is a very thin face plate on the adapter which is needed to engage the locking pin on the camera. Distance from the front of the camera to the front of the TOAG is probably around 11-12mm. I might have to get some calipers to measure it.


Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (09/18/13 10:34 AM)


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6088062 - 09/18/13 01:34 PM

This is good news! I think I'm now sold on this.

Any chance of another close up edge on pic like above, but showing the T-2 thread adapter installed into the 44 mm threads?

Edited by Wmacky (09/18/13 02:09 PM)


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6088234 - 09/18/13 03:05 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

Quote:

This is good news! I think I'm now sold on this.

Any chance of another close up edge on pic like above, but showing the T-2 thread adapter installed into the 44 mm threads?




Sure, here it is. I left off their nose piece it doesn't add to the width and if needed the top of the focuser would be flush to the T-adapter.

I don't have calipers but did the next best thing with a ruler to give you a better idea of actual width. I would say the whole thing is just around 13mm.

Hope this help and I hope all the images buy me some cloud free karma to try this puppy out


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Thirteen
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6088264 - 09/18/13 03:17 PM

Perfect... thanks so much. If I have karma to give, you got it.

This looks close enough to try with the standard edgehd t-adapter. I know I have seen zero effective length adapeters from M48 to T-thread available also, so this extra 2mm could probably be shed also, for a little more cost.

As it is, it still looks to be within the +/- 3mm of backfocus 'tolerance' Celestron is stating for the edges, so I think I am sold on this also.


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6088364 - 09/18/13 04:15 PM

Yes a thanks to both Smigol, and Phillip Easton for all the pics.
And:

Yes, agreed! I think it's going to work fine. It appears it to be even thinner than the TSOAG9-EOS. I'm putting in a order.How robust does it seem concerning the stalk to body connections? I know the Lacerta was favored over the TS-OAG in this regard.

OK, it's ordered. I will be using it with a 40D initially, along with a ASI120 as a guider. I guess I need the same guide camera spacer as Phillip?I'm thinking that instead of ordering the Orion t-thread spacer kit, I can substitute with this?
http://agenaastro.com/blue-fireball-t-thread-spacer-ring-4-5mm-extension.html


Edited by Wmacky (09/18/13 09:50 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6088796 - 09/18/13 08:22 PM

Can anyone tell me how wide the 'coma corrector' spacer is? I need like 5mm in my image train and I'm hoping that works.

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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6088966 - 09/18/13 09:51 PM

Quote:

Can anyone tell me how wide the 'coma corrector' spacer is? I need like 5mm in my image train and I'm hoping that works.




Orion lists it at 3mm


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6089172 - 09/18/13 11:35 PM

Thanks. Missed that!

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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6089916 - 09/19/13 12:56 PM

BTW - If anyone else wants to try one, Here's a coupon for $10 off the OAG.

GRT213


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cherokawa
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6090889 - 09/19/13 11:57 PM

What I'd be interested in knowing is how easy/difficult it is to find a guide-star with this and an SSAG.

The price is definitely right. If it works well with the SSAG, I might order one. But I'm worried that finding a guide-star would be a chore with my 150mm f/5 reflector.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6097381 - 09/23/13 08:30 PM

Well, mine arrived. After trying to figure out how to get the spacing correct, I ended up with a problem I can't solve. My total distance is around 45mm for my guide camera and with the spacers on the 'stalk' for the prism, it flexes quite a bit. They only put set screws on the 'side' so there isn't any way to cinch it down and prevent it from sagging.

So, looks like another botched product from Orion. Do they do any beta testing before sending this *BLEEP* out? The two set screws nearly stripped with just the camera on BEFORE the required spacing.

*SIGH*


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6097733 - 09/24/13 12:24 AM

Thats very disappointing especially as mine arrives Thursday. Perhaps others can chime in? Could you have a poorly machined unit, or are we talking about design issue? Reading further, I see the TS-OAG9 can have a similar issue, but appears very usable?

Edited by Wmacky (09/24/13 12:41 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6098595 - 09/24/13 02:09 PM

I finally used mine this weekend and it is a mixed bag. The good, I did not have any issue with finding guide stars. Guiding seemed to be okay and was about on par with what I was getting with my 80mm short tube. Was hoping for more improvement but it might be I just need more time with it.

I found for me it can be a little difficult to focus. The stalk does move more than I think it should. I believe that most of the movement occurs at the points where you can adjust the thumb screws to slide the stalk from side to side to look for stars. Even if tightened down hard it still can wiggle. The screws act more like pivot points. Really need to have a set screw coming in from the side. In my opinion where ever the loc screws are there should be another coming in from the side to that way things are locked in two directions. BTW I have the guider platform sitting on the TOAG body so none of the stalk is exposed. So this shouldn't be flex in the stalk.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6098673 - 09/24/13 02:56 PM

I just don't know what to think about that. The whole point of the OAG to to elimate flex / movement. I have to say I that when I saw the the Orion used 2 opposing screws, I was worried about pivot point wobble. The TSOAG9 uses just 1 screw that pushes the stalk against the OAG body on the other side. Seems like this would lock it better. I think Orion tried for too many adjustment options. Anyone call Orion about the issue yet?

Edited by Wmacky (09/24/13 02:57 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6098921 - 09/24/13 05:16 PM

I sent them an email... no response back. I think I'm gonna get a different 'better built' model. A hu-tech came available in the S&S. Anyone have any experiences with them?


It could be fixed by drilling a hole 90-degrees out and placing another set screw. I think you're right that they tried to make it *too* adjustable.

Build quality is alright IMHO.

Edited by Raginar (09/24/13 05:18 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6099157 - 09/24/13 07:16 PM

Hu-tech way to thick for my needs. TSOAG9 would work but still has "some" rigidity issues. Lacerta solves the issue but is thicker.(want to stay with the T-ring replacement idea) If I were to send the Orion back, I have no idea what I would buy. I wish someone had a TSOAG9, and as Orion in front of them to compare?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6099285 - 09/24/13 08:31 PM

I emailed support and they indicated what I was seeing wasn't normal. Waiting on next step.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6099297 - 09/24/13 08:38 PM

Maybe I got a *BLEEP* one too.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6101305 - 09/25/13 09:17 PM

Mine arrives tomorrow. I will advise as to what I find. Please keep us up to date on any further word from Orion, or if any get sent back.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6101361 - 09/25/13 09:54 PM

I don't think I out a bad word in that. Anyways, they basically said the feedback has been provided to their engineers and that their 'fix' is to use tape...

I might tap it tomorrow and put another set screw on the front. I can't think of a reason why this won't work. Anyone want to chime in as to why that's a bad idea?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6101467 - 09/25/13 10:58 PM

If your configuration is like mine in the last picture I posted, (everything collapsed and no stalk showing). Not sure how much tape would help.

I think if you have stalk showing them tape is worth a try. Also about some sort of clamp or even a hose clamp if you could find the right size. Maybe a small c-clamp?

I do think a three sections need a set screw on either the front or back. If I had the tools I would tap them. I think this would go along way to making it more solid.

Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (09/25/13 11:07 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6103162 - 09/26/13 10:29 PM

OK, the OAG came in.

First, I'd like to say it's a very nice looking piece of kit. Really couldn't look any nicer as a matter of fact. And it seems well made. On to the important parts!

I almost immediately snugged down the screws, and gave it a wiggle test. I did detect a slight rocking right where the guide platform attaches to the stalk. So I attempted to tighten the "focus adjust screws", and it felt like both the set screws almost immediately wanted to strip! I should have known better!

Here's the issue guys. I'm into large RC helicopters and have to deal with this exact size set screws a whole bunch, and I will tell you that they should not ever be tighten with a normal hex wrench. They are just too small for a cheap wrench with pressed, or cast edges. I have a special hex driver with machined edges on the hex. It does NOT slip! For example.

http://www.rcboca.com/dynamite-machined-hex-driver-1-5mm.html?gclid=CMioptvA6...

You really need one if your going to keep this OAG.

Anyway with the proper driver. the platform tighten right up even with the partially stripped setscrew. I tightened the lower set screw also, and hand tightened the thumbscrews nice and snug.

I don't know guys, it seems pretty rigid to me? I'm not really wiggling it hard as I don't want to break it, but my guider will be a light ASI120. It seems rigid enough for that.I'm going to use it as is before thing about a new setscrew.

Now for the bad. Where the heck is my T2 adapter? It wasn't in the fricking box!! looks like call to Orion for me tomorrow!

Also, I have to lock the EOS Adapter to the camera first, then attach the OAG to it. I can't seem to do it all attached as the guider platform rubs the camera case and strains the stalk as I try to rotate the T- ring. Anyone else see this? It's an issue no matter the length position of the stalk. It's fine once rotated into position to the bottom of the camera, but rubs badly during the rotation?

Edited by Wmacky (09/26/13 10:53 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6103257 - 09/26/13 11:29 PM

Quote:

OK, the OAG came in.

Here's the issue guys. I'm into large RC helicopters and have to deal with this exact size set screws a whole bunch, and I will tell you that they should not ever be tighten with a normal hex wrench. They are just too small for a cheap wrench with pressed, or cast edges. I have a special hex driver with machined edges on the hex. It does NOT slip! For example.

http://www.rcboca.com/dynamite-machined-hex-driver-1-5mm.html?gclid=CMioptvA6...

You really need one if your going to keep this OAG.





I noticed this too that it felt like the Allen wrench was stripping the head. I grabbed one of my better wrenches it seemed better but still not quite right. Thanks for the info!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6103734 - 09/27/13 09:30 AM

Gonna stop by the local Hobby shop on the way home today. You're awesome

Anyone guiding with it yet? How is it?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6103917 - 09/27/13 10:51 AM

Be careful with the new hex driver, and don't over tighten! It won't round over, but the tip will snap off as the metal is very hard, but brittle (buy an extra tip!) Also while there, pick up some extra 1.5mm Set screws!

Edited by Wmacky (09/28/13 12:51 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6104936 - 09/27/13 09:15 PM

So they sent me a new one today apparently. Interesting response

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6105100 - 09/27/13 11:22 PM

Called for a missing t-2 ring, and I'm getting a new one too???? I guess there are no spare parts?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6105110 - 09/27/13 11:31 PM

So how much are these lightly used ones selling for? haha.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6105570 - 09/28/13 09:43 AM

I'm still in my return window.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6106718 - 09/28/13 11:05 PM

K, so I tried it tonight and got stars. But... It's 2 inches from the center of it to the tip of my lodestar... so that means I need my camera to be at least that far away too right?I need another spacer to make it happen. Oh, and I broke the tip of a ball end hex wrench off in one side. Any ideas on how to get that out?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6106726 - 09/28/13 11:09 PM

Quote:

K, so I tried it tonight and got stars. But... It's 2 inches from the center of it to the tip of my lodestar... so that means I need my camera to be at least that far away too right?I need another spacer to make it happen.




It is the other way around. You focus the telescope with the main camera. THEN you put the guide camera wherever it needs to be to be in focus at the same time.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6106750 - 09/28/13 11:21 PM

And is it truly from the center of the OAG to the guide camera has to be equal to the center of the OAG to the main camera?

Or is it based on where your prism is?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6106988 - 09/29/13 06:30 AM

No, it's from the prism, and yeah, focus the main camera first, then match the guider.

Ball end? I thought you were going for a machined driver? Never seen a machined ball end wrench??

Edited by Wmacky (09/29/13 06:32 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6107239 - 09/29/13 11:09 AM

I went looking for one and couldn't find it. I ordered one online .

Ok so it's prism stalk length needs to match the distance to the ccd. I probably was pretty close. But the problem is you have no adjustment. As soon as I tried to move the top part it wobbled... With almost no spacers on it. I bought a tap set so I can throw a small 4-40 screw in it. I'll let you know.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6112234 - 10/01/13 11:30 PM

I added a few extra set screws to hold mine in better, works like a charm. No wobble at all anymore. Hopefully Orion will redesign the next batch to include this modification because it looks like it work perfectly now.



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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Dan Watt]
      #6112892 - 10/02/13 10:59 AM

Cool. I bought the bits but didn't get to it. Thanks for posting that.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6113039 - 10/02/13 12:25 PM

This may be a newb question, but why would you want a guider blocking the light path of your primary which will reduce contrast, when you can just stick one on a the back of your finder scope (or a second finder scope)? Am I missing something?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: BaltimoreCaesar]
      #6113452 - 10/02/13 04:07 PM

Because:

The small prism is adjusted to be out of the light path reaching the imaging chip.

Also.

Flexure in separate guide scope systems can lead to non round stars when imaging at long focal lengths, such as using a SCT at its native focal length.

Edited by Wmacky (10/02/13 04:14 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Dan Watt]
      #6114703 - 10/03/13 08:38 AM

Dan,

I agree those are what are needed to make this an excellent TOAG. Hope Orion listens.

Did you add lock screws on the part that has the thumb screws for side to side movement? I think it needs them there too.

I need to send them a video of the wobble even when fully seated. Didn't get a chance to do it before heading out to Okie-Tex.

Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (10/03/13 08:40 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6116481 - 10/04/13 01:48 AM

I have no added anything, it felt fine on the bench but I have yet to try this out in the field. I'm going out to the desert this weekend for imaging so I will have to report back with my findings.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Dan Watt]
      #6128596 - 10/10/13 09:16 AM

How's the experimenting with this thing going?

I was hoping to use the Edge T-adapter with this OAG, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen. With just the t-adapter and OAG, the back focus 3mm over. Thats not too bad, but that leaves no back focus space for a LP filter, and no place to thread one in for that matter. The worst part is that I just tried to thread the T- adapter into the OAG, and it appear to collide with the Prism shaft before it fully seats. It almost damaged the prism! Looks like I'll have to piece together various adapters / extenders. Bummer!

One last issue is the AT2FF flatner I'm soon to purchase. Those threads look pretty long, and it may also make contact with the prism? Anyone have both these items?





Edited by Wmacky (10/10/13 09:40 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6173412 - 11/03/13 10:15 AM

I wanted to bump this thread. I am interested in trying this oag since the reviews make it sound more sturdy than the German version and smaller than the Lacartes. Has anyone found success using this with a ff and dslr? I use clip filters so using them eliminates any extra spacing or adapter requirements. Looking forward to any additional feedback. Thanks.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6173663 - 11/03/13 12:27 PM

It works with a field flattener just fine. I have a at2ff. It really just needs an additional set screw on the adjustable part.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6173986 - 11/03/13 03:49 PM Attachment (18 downloads)

I added an additional set screw at 90deg as shown in the pic below. There still is a little bit of play on that axis. But I am a bit hesitant adding one on the other side. It is fairly thin-walled and I am concerned about stripping what little thread there would be.

But thinking about it and playing with it to see were the play is, I can see the stalk itself is moving. There is just the one set screw holding the stalk in place. Maybe a 90deg set screw there would take care of the remaining slop?

But I agree, Orion should make a version 2 of this to address this silly problem.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6174002 - 11/03/13 04:02 PM

Pete,

Where else are you seeing it flex? you mean physically the prism part?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6174013 - 11/03/13 04:09 PM

Chris,

Yeah, there is just the one set screw on the TOAG body that holds the prism part in place. It comes in from the side, since the prism stalk is a bit smaller that the opening in the TOAG, there is play. I can wiggle it with my fingers. Not sure how much would actually move while imaging, especially once the one set screw is tightened. But it does move, so I am serious thinking of adding a set screw 90deg to the existing one just in case.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6174023 - 11/03/13 04:15 PM

Quote:

Chris,

Yeah, there is just the one set screw on the TOAG body that holds the prism part in place. It comes in from the side, since the prism stalk is a bit smaller that the opening in the TOAG, there is play. I can wiggle it with my fingers. Not sure how much would actually move while imaging, especially once the one set screw is tightened. But it does move, so I am serious thinking of adding a set screw 90deg to the existing one just in case.




Two questions...

Is the stalk made out of aluminum and use a steel set screw? Does that create divots in the aluminum that make it hard to adjust focus without set screw falling into previous divots?

Do you guys just user spacers for the guide cam and thread it or does anyone use a t thread to insert tube or t thread to helical focuser? Seems like a threaded connection would make orientation adjustments difficult.


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petemumbower
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6174058 - 11/03/13 04:30 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Josh,

Yes, the stalk appears to be made out of aluminum and the set screws are steel. At this point, I do not see any divots that would cause issues down the road. For focus, I got a 1.25" eyepiece adapter from Agena. See below pic. I use a QHY5L-II guider and basically slide it up and down until I got focus (after I focused the DSLR first). Then I used the suppied QHY focus collar. That focus should not change unless I change my setup.

Also, since I do not need to move the prism stalk up and down for focus, I really am not too worried about divots.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6174075 - 11/03/13 04:44 PM

Thanks Pete.... I figured that would be the better solution, but didn't know if the stalk could handle it or not. Since I am using clip filters, it is likely that I will have to adjust focus on the guide cam (ST-i) regularly by ver small amounts. Not even sure if the filters will change backfocus enough to require guide cam adjustments, but nice to be prepared. I feel pretty convinced now that this is the way to go.

My 2 cents on the stalk issue would be to just permanently bolt it into place and use an attached 1.25" tube for focus. Seems like sensitive guide cams should be able to pick up bright enough stars anywhere if imaging at less 800-900mm focal length.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6174086 - 11/03/13 04:51 PM

One other thing... Would any of you know the distance from the center of the pickoff prism to the top of the stalk to determine spacing requirements? Thanks in advance for any answers.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6180043 - 11/06/13 09:31 PM

Quote:

It works with a field flattener just fine. I have a at2ff. It really just needs an additional set screw on the adjustable part.




Hmmm, tell me more about this. I just tried my AT2FF and the flattner hits the prism stalk well before it bottoms out? Same issue with the C8 Edge T- adapter. Looks like it still has a couple MM to go. Are you using some kinda spacer?

Edited by Wmacky (11/06/13 09:33 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6180063 - 11/06/13 09:55 PM

I'm wondering if you could eliminate the play with the stalk by wrapping it in a layer or two of plumbers teflon tape.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Madratter]
      #6180079 - 11/06/13 10:08 PM

Mine should be arriving tomorrow. I will let you know how my experimenting goes. I got some plumbers tape, set screws, plastic shim stock, o-rings, and rare earth magnets (I know it's aluminum) to play with. As far as the field flattener goes, I was under the impression that it would be threaded into the adapter.... Is that not what everyone else does for this setup? Or are you saying the threads don't bottom out till they hit the prism?

Edited by josh smith (11/06/13 10:11 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6180118 - 11/06/13 10:32 PM

Wmacky, yes, I use a space between the AT2FF and the OAG. my filterwheel combo isn't quite there.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6180129 - 11/06/13 10:36 PM

Quote:

Wmacky, yes, I use a space between the AT2FF and the OAG. my filterwheel combo isn't quite there.




What size spacer do you use? I am trying to figure out the spacing as well. I have my T3i to the TOAG then coma corrector. What would I need to get my orion auto guider to focus?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Stargazer78]
      #6180206 - 11/06/13 11:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Wmacky, yes, I use a space between the AT2FF and the OAG. my filterwheel combo isn't quite there.




What size spacer do you use? I am trying to figure out the spacing as well. I have my T3i to the TOAG then coma corrector. What would I need to get my orion auto guider to focus?




What he said! I just ordered a set of brass t2 washers/spacers as i'm hoping to get better flattening than I'm getting now with a EON 80mm and the AT2FF with my regular T-ring. I was going to try to use them on the OAG too hoping to fix this collision issue!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6180209 - 11/06/13 11:41 PM

Quote:

Mine should be arriving tomorrow. I will let you know how my experimenting goes. I got some plumbers tape, set screws, plastic shim stock, o-rings, and rare earth magnets (I know it's aluminum) to play with. As far as the field flattener goes, I was under the impression that it would be threaded into the adapter.... Is that not what everyone else does for this setup? Or are you saying the threads don't bottom out till they hit the prism?




Exactly, The At2ff threads are too long. Same with the Edge 8 T-adapter. When I was hoping for an extra thin OAG, I didn't think about this issue.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6184236 - 11/09/13 09:01 AM

My first night was a mixed experience. My train includes sv102ed, hotech 2" field flattener, m48/m42 adapter, orion toag, canon bayonet adapter loaded with Teflon tape to get a snug fit, and canon T3 modded. So the good news is that the images were very sharp and crisp all the way to the edge so the spacing for my setup seems to have worked very well.

The bad is, as others have shared, the stalk is shockingly wobbly. For the stalk I have a short t ring spacer, baader 1.25 micro helical focuser, and st-i color guide cam. I had everything tightened down very well before starting and it seemed good and stiff. Adding the lever arm of the camera almost immediately introduced pivoting and by the end of the session, the set screws became so loose the t mount almost slid right off the stalk. Wrapping the stalk in plumbers tape stiffened the assembly quite a bit, but wobble still happened pretty quickly. I was hoping to avoid the set screws, but I feel I am going to have to tap those and try then out. I'm assuming lock screws would be an even better option so I will try that and report back.

Edited by josh smith (11/09/13 09:29 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6184406 - 11/09/13 10:38 AM

WARNING... The stalk is soft and thin enough that set screws will bend it. I inserted two 6-32 set screw at right angles with some loctite. I also got a little over zealous tightening them and they deformed the stalk very slightly. Hopefully not enough to introduce any vignetting if that is an issue on a guide cam. Initial impressions say it is still not as stiff as I would like, but a marked improvement. I will report back when I get an opportunity to test... Here in Pittsburgh, that may be the spring.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6214130 - 11/24/13 09:43 PM

Well, I installed mine today. I replaced the little set screws just like John did and that seems to give you enough crank to settle it down. I bought a third one and was going to drill my 90 off one too but found it wasn't needed.

ATFF does not hit my stalk. I do need a 10mm spacer to make it CMR to focus unfortunately and I don't have one on hand so that's in the mail now. Otherwise, I could tell I was just barely out of focus at the top of the stack so I think it's going to work. In addition, as advertised, it will put my camera exactly the right distance away.

I dunno, I think if they just included a better Allen wrench and some better screws it would be a win.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6214181 - 11/24/13 10:26 PM

What size spacer between the ATff and OAG?

Edited by Wmacky (11/24/13 10:29 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6214646 - 11/25/13 09:08 AM

None. It's screwed directly to it. The only spacer I have/need is a 10mm on the backside of it going to the camera.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6214847 - 11/25/13 10:55 AM

Strange? How close to your ATFF thread come to the stalk? Can you measure them with a caliper? Mine hitthe stalk just before bottoming out the threads.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6216111 - 11/25/13 09:02 PM

I don't have a caliper unfortunately. I'll see if I can pick one up. Why does it matter if it's snug against the stalk? I'm not noticing any problems... My 10mm spacer should be here on Wednesday. I'll let you know if my stars look off.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6216262 - 11/25/13 10:34 PM

I'm having all sorts of spacing issues with mine. I have a Canon t3i-oag-atcc. I have tried 5 mm, 10mm, with no luck getting the auto guider to focus. Any body using my setup above? Would really like to use my AT8IN more but not until I get the spacer thing figured out

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Stargazer78]
      #6216713 - 11/26/13 09:18 AM

Are you making sure your spacing is from the prism to te auto guider ccd is the same as the spacing from the prism to the main ccd chip?

It should be that simple. When I played with mine I had stars but it didn't have enough stalk remaining to clamp it down.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6217655 - 11/26/13 05:13 PM

I'll have to play with it some more

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Stargazer78]
      #6218005 - 11/26/13 08:12 PM

I found the spacing from the center of the pickoff mirror to the base of threads for the guide cam to be 31mm. I am using an (st-i) and the backfocus for that is 13.7 mm. From the pickoff mirror to the canon sensor (T3 or T3i) is ~46.6 mm. In my case I only needed about 1.9 mm of spacing. Because optics can change and distances change a little with temp and so forth, I got a micro helical focuser from Agena that has 10 mm of travel. It is a perfect fit. I'm assuming from your signature you are using the ssag, which has 15mm of backfocus from the threads. Based on that, you probably need ~3.2 mm of spacing. I would guess 3mm would do the job, but the micro helical focuser will take care of you for sure.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6218016 - 11/26/13 08:18 PM

Josh, that's a really neat idea. I can't wait for my spacer to get here and give this thing a whirl.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6218078 - 11/26/13 08:44 PM

The one I got is...

http://agenaastro.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=PAAR-BP-T2-8A

It's a little pricey, but well worth it and a very well built piece in my opinion.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6218496 - 11/27/13 12:50 AM

Quote:

Are you making sure your spacing is from the prism to te auto guider ccd is the same as the spacing from the prism to the main ccd chip?

It should be that simple. When I played with mine I had stars but it didn't have enough stalk remaining to clamp it down.




Did you have to adjust the height of the stalk? Maybe I should give this a try


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Stargazer78]
      #6224379 - 11/29/13 11:14 PM

Adjusting the stalk shouldn't matter. The distance is from prism to each CCD. I got it working tonight . I'm guiding with it as I write this. I matched up the spacing and it took a little wiggle play (about 1/8th of the stalk) before coming to focus. Quite a few guide stars with the lodestar and guiding is good.

I did check and there is no gap between the stalk and my AT2FF. The threads are flush against it. Dioesnt seem to hurt anything though.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Thirteen]
      #6225162 - 11/30/13 01:02 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

Here is a screen shot from last night. yes, its only 120 sec, but its the only RGB I shot and i wanted to use it. It worked all night Nice round stars from what I can tell. What do you guys think? i was surprised how horrible my PHD graph looked.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6225177 - 11/30/13 01:09 PM

Those stars look good to me. And yes... A choppy PHD graph is a good thing. That's just all of the corrections your guidescope couldn't make.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Footbag]
      #6228216 - 12/01/13 11:57 PM

Ok I had a chance to play with my setup and I got everything to work. So if you have a AT8IN or similar and the AT coma corrector you will need a 5 mm spacer installed on the autoguider. Also you have to use the spacer that came with the corrector as well. The one that comes with the OAG is too small. That is why I wasn't reaching focus before. Hope this helps some one out.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Stargazer78]
      #6228623 - 12/02/13 09:13 AM

Gazer, glad you got yours working as well. Congrats!

I'm definitely happy with it now. Not bad for a .50 upgrade in screws.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6236061 - 12/05/13 07:33 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

I'm amazed at how many stars I get with this thing. They're sharp too! Kind of makes me regret upgrading my ST-10 to be a self-guider. Could've saved 500 bucks.

Edited by Raginar (12/05/13 07:34 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6287230 - 01/02/14 10:30 AM

Quote:

Also the instructions don't mention it but you can screw on the SSAG until finger tight. Then back it off to align the long axis of the opening with the long axis of the sensor. You can then use the three Allen screws to tighten this down. Works with the Orion spacer too as there is a lip in the spacer.




Ahhh, thank you very much! I suspected that's what those set screws were for but they don't quite hit the lip on the t-spacers I currently have. I don't have it in front of me, but I wonder if the other set screws (coming through the threads) can be used to do the same thing by pressing on the threads of a t-spacer? Didn't even think to try that last night.

I had different problems bring my cameras to focus than most. My camera is a Sony NEX-5 mirrorless DSLR, so the distance from sensor to the flange is 18mm, as opposed to the 44mm of Canon's. My t-ring adds another 12.5mm to that. As it turns out, the supplied 18mm spacer worked well between my NEX-5 and the TOAG. I happened to have a 2mm spacer (non-Orion) which I used on my SSAG. Worked like a charm.

Thanks to everyone for all the pics and advice. I was hesitant to pick one up but decided to after reading this thread. Mine had the same movement issues as everyone else's, so I added as set screw and now there's no movement at all.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: tazer]
      #6287599 - 01/02/14 01:14 PM

Glad it's working tazer. Consider replacing the screws with bigger hex heads. It made it a lot more usable.

I never have trouble finding guide stars and the price is right


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6289223 - 01/03/14 09:18 AM

That's a very good idea Raginar. I'll see if I can't do just that this weekend. In the meantime I flipped the other set screws around and used them to lock the t-spacer in place. Worked out well. I'm sure it could end up damaging the threads, but I had to get ready for first light tonight.

It's going to be in the mid-teens tonight, which is cold for me, so I'm really hoping I got my focus nailed down!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6304920 - 01/10/14 08:05 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

So I finally had the chance to really test this out this past week and I must say I am really disappointed. Couldn't get round stars if my life depended on it. Tried wrapping the stalk with tape but there was still a lot of movement.

On the good side I did get the focuser that Josh and it is awesome! It is expensive but very well made and it makes focusing a snap.

Quote:

The one I got is...

http://agenaastro.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=PAAR-BP-T2-8A

It's a little pricey, but well worth it and a very well built piece in my opinion.




So today I drilled some holes and added more screws. Certainly much more solid, so hopefully I have better luck with it.

With mine I think most of the flex was happening where the U shaped piece goes into the body. It can slide back and forth and is 'locked' in by the thumb screw. To me it acts more like a rocker. So I added a screw to the body that locks against the stalk. Also added some to the guider base plate. Just a note, if you do this remember the walls are thin so be careful not to strip out the threads you have made.

I will update once I get a chance to use my modified TOAG.

Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6304925 - 01/10/14 08:06 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

The finished product.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6305795 - 01/11/14 10:00 AM

Looks really good. You stuck with those goofy little set screws huh?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6305820 - 01/11/14 10:09 AM

I thought about trying to use this with my CCD and filterwheel because the minimally added backfocus would be a very good thing. But then I realized it is actually too thin. My guide camera would need to intrude into my filterwheel. I'm not sure how much spacing I would need to add to prevent that. I'm guessing at least 12mm.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6305862 - 01/11/14 10:32 AM

Quote:

Looks really good. You stuck with those goofy little set screws huh?




Yep, went to a Aero Hobby store and it is what they had. Actually, when I went to the hardware store and tried the 4-40 screws. They would not fit the existing holes. So went to the hobby store to see what they had. Ended up using 3mm screws all around. I may go back to the hardware store to see what they have in a 3mm size.

I did buy a good hex driver at the hobby store. Makes a huge difference!

BTW I got decent guide stars but they are not as pretty as yours.

Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (01/11/14 10:36 AM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Madratter]
      #6308029 - 01/12/14 12:16 PM

MR, I had a similar problem with my ST-10. I had to turn it so it faced a specific direction to make it fit over the lip of my filter wheel.

Phillip,

That's really cool. Sounds like you found some better set screws that way. I didn't think to do that . As for the stars, it's got to be the Mi-250 . What settings are you using? PHD? PHD2? I've found that it does it's best work with hysteresis on both axis and a move of .75, history of .05, and a min motion of .05. These settings seem to work on both axis.

The min motion is the one that surprised me the most. I also thought I'd have to change my move rate down more, but I think I have a bad polar alignment right now and it needs a bit more to keep things centered.

Hope that helps! Post some pictures of your graph/stars and maybe we can help figure it out.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6308318 - 01/12/14 02:44 PM

Chris,

Could be your Mi-250. Looked it up, looks pretty cool. I just found out that PHD2 will do hysteresis on DEC so plan to try it out. I normally set things up so I only need to guide on N or S so hysteresis should be pretty good for that.

I used the auto-guider calculator to get min motion and it usually works out pretty well. http://www.ccdware.com/resources/autoguidercalcv4.cfm

For example using my 50mm mini guider the min motion is 0.05 but for the TOAG I calculated it to be 0.45 Mainly use it as a starting point and play with it to get best results. I still think most of my problem is with the flex in the TOAG. In fact I noticed additional flex when I plugged in the USB cable. So I am confident that the flex is fix but I will also be tying down the USB cable to help eliminate that as a source too.

I will post results but it will be after my new Moonlite focuser get here. Since I am trying a TOAG I decided to do it up right

Using CCDIsnpector I did notice that the camera had additional tilt in it when using the TOAG as opposed to not have the TOAG. Thinking the new focuser will help but I also need to inspect where the camera attaches to the TOAG.

Going to install the Moonlite and camera with out the TOAG. Then use CCDInspector to get it aligned perfectly without any tilt. Then install the TOAG and see how things look.

I'll keep you posted.


Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6308334 - 01/12/14 02:53 PM

Sounds good. Min motion of .45 huh? That's crazy! I guess I haven't tried it that high. If I get some clear skies, I might give it a try. I also heard that I should have less RA motion... but I find when I do that it gets a little wonky.

I also had to tie it down and I really cranked down the bolts for just about everything that I'm pretty sure it's denting the metal.

Edited by Raginar (01/12/14 02:56 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6309191 - 01/12/14 10:02 PM

Quote:

Sounds good. Min motion of .45 huh? That's crazy! I guess I haven't tried it that high. If I get some clear skies, I might give it a try. I also heard that I should have less RA motion... but I find when I do that it gets a little wonky.

I also had to tie it down and I really cranked down the bolts for just about everything that I'm pretty sure it's denting the metal.




Try the link above and see what it gives. It is taking into account your imaging scale of your camera and guider so your results will be different.

I was denting the metal to, I then filed the end of the screws flat hoping to get better contact.

Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6309244 - 01/12/14 10:24 PM

That's a good one, I didn't think to file my ends. Thanks!

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6357280 - 02/05/14 09:43 AM

So, awhile back I had written Orion about my concerns with the flex in the TOAG. Even sent them a video to demonstrate what I was seeing. They responded that they have identified the cause and have ordered modified parts based on customer feedback. A note has placed in my customer file to ship the improved component pieces directly to me at no charge.

So this week I receive a no charge order for "1 Kit for #5531 and 1 Canon ring for #5531". Glad to see a new Canon ring as I have discovered the standard one is too loose so hopefully this fixes it. Parts should be here Friday. So far impressed with Orion's support and willingness to try and resolve the issues. I will update you on Friday with what I actually receive.

Cheers!
Phillip


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6358712 - 02/05/14 11:08 PM

Wow, that's awesome. Wonder if they'll send me one too. what is the 1 kit thing.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6358760 - 02/05/14 11:37 PM

Dunno, it is now scheduled to arrive tomorrow so I will post a pic.

Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6361290 - 02/07/14 05:08 AM

Thanks Phil! Keep us in the loop!

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6361503 - 02/07/14 09:12 AM Attachment (36 downloads)

I arrived home from the airport yesterday. As I pulled into the driveway the UPS guy pulls up behind me. I told him he was right on time!

Anyhoo, here is a picture of the "Kit for #5531" It also included the Canon adapter so not sure why they sent me another one. No obvious difference between the adapters. I did insert them both into my camera and they did fit MUCH better. The original one I could wiggle by hand. I think these two have much better tolerances particularity around the hole where the pin from the camera goes.

The obvious change in the other two parts are the addition of the two set screws (green arrows) on the face of them. This is certainly a very good upgrade! I have tried yet assembled them onto the TOAG body or stalk so not sure if there are any differences in the fit of the parts together. One of my concerns is still around the screws that allow you to slide the stalk from side to side, (yellow arrow is where the screws go into that part). I still believe the stalk assembly can pivot on the screws. However I have the set screw I added in the body of my TOAG to prevent this. However if the new part fits a little tighter this might not be an issue. I am speculating of course, so I will post back when I have had a chance to assemble the new parts.

Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (02/07/14 03:30 PM)


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6361509 - 02/07/14 09:19 AM

Good to see Orion doing this. Looks like it should help for sure. I wonder how existing owners of the TOAG can get this upgrade. Suppose an email to there support is needed.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6362171 - 02/07/14 03:07 PM

That does look better! I put in a request about 30 seconds after reading your first post, and my kit should arrive tomorrow, or Monday. Looks like your saying the canon ring comes in the 1st kit?

Edited by Wmacky (02/07/14 03:16 PM)


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6362216 - 02/07/14 03:28 PM

Quote:

That does look better! I put in a request about 30 seconds after reading your first post, and my kit should arrive tomorrow, or Monday. Looks like your saying the canon ring comes in the 1st kit?




The kit I received had a ring, can't say what you will receive in your kit


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tazer
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6362661 - 02/07/14 06:52 PM

Quote:

Good to see Orion doing this. Looks like it should help for sure. I wonder how existing owners of the TOAG can get this upgrade. Suppose an email to there support is needed.




I purchased the TOAG in December. After reading the update about the kit this afternoon I emailed support. They required proof of purchase, so I sent them a copy of my Amazon receipt. They just sent out the kit at no cost via USPS priority mail (2-3 day delivery.)

Glad they're taking customer feedback and addressing the problem. That gives me confidence in future purchases from Orion.

Mark

Edited by tazer (02/07/14 06:53 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: tazer]
      #6363266 - 02/08/14 02:07 AM

Awesome. Can't wait. I'll send them an email too. It sure would be nice if they let us know they fixed the glitch.

Edited by Raginar (02/08/14 02:10 AM)


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6363549 - 02/08/14 09:09 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

No idea if they plan on a proactive fix. It may be a supply issue. I also wonder how many actually complained about the issue like I did. If there where only a few of us they might not have thought the problem was wide spread.

I did look closer at the Canon ring in the Kit and the original ring. The notable difference is on the original there is a ring/shelf for the tabs that the screws use to hold the ring in the TOAG body. On the new ring this is solid up to the other edge of the ring. This coupled with what I perceive as improved fit of the ring should make it much better for holding the camera to the TOAG.

I finally assembled the new pieces into the TOAG and I must say, 'WOW what a difference!' I put on the nose piece and then set the nose piece on the table and tried to wiggle the stalk assembly and I could not visually see any movement! I snugged down the screws but purposefully did not over tighten them so I think the results are even better. I did assemble with stalk fully enclosed as in my previous pictures so can't comment on what you would see with the stalk exposed. So far I am really impressed and must say to Orion, job well done! They have eliminated any reservations I have. So if you have been following this thread and trying to decide if you want to buy one I would say go ahead!

Cheers!

Edited by Phillip Easton (02/08/14 09:17 AM)


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petemumbower
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6363712 - 02/08/14 10:28 AM

Good to hear that Phillip, I am looking forward to a more solid TOAG.

I emailed them yesterday and within a couple of hours I got a response that they are shipping this upgrade free of charge to me.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6365182 - 02/08/14 11:44 PM

Glad to see this update. I was able to modify mine to the point it worked great, but it would be nice to have stock pieces that work as intended. Also, my stalk is permenantly fixed in place to make it stiff which doesn't allow me to rotate to find other stars. I have high hopes for the new bayonet adaptor as well. The previous version is not tight to say the least.

Phillip, the flex on the stalk was definitely most visible and noticeable when the lever arm of the guide cam was assembled. Have you tested with yours installed to see if it remains snug?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6365767 - 02/09/14 10:35 AM

I emailed them and they told me I had to send back mine in order to get the new parts. Can you guys give me a POC to talk to about where you're getting your parts?

Chris


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tazer
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6365876 - 02/09/14 11:51 AM

Chris, I just used the contact form on the Orion website. Since I didn't buy direct from them they did require my Amazon receipt. The support person I emailed with was named Rich. Not sure if that'll help or not.

I'm not sure why you'd have to send yours back unless they've run out of replacement kits and are just planning on sending you a new TOAG which has the fixed components.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: tazer]
      #6365931 - 02/09/14 12:14 PM

Cool... I did the same thing. I sent them an email back asking if I could avoid the hassle. It'd suck to be out of pocket for a few weeks because of *BLEEP* CS.

Thanks for the update. And, this thing works REALLY well. It's pretty much eliminated all my guiding problems and coupled to my Lodestar, I never fight for stars anywhere I've seen at 3-s integrations in PHD2. It's a fantastic product with the caveats listed in here..


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6366206 - 02/09/14 02:13 PM

Quote:


Phillip, the flex on the stalk was definitely most visible and noticeable when the lever arm of the guide cam was assembled. Have you tested with yours installed to see if it remains snug?




I didn't pull out my guide camera but I did put on the helical focuser that I got per your recommendation. It was enough for me to use to try and wiggle to see if there was any flex left.

Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6366731 - 02/09/14 05:54 PM

I've been interested in the TOAG and this thread has been very educational. Thanks to all who experimented, sent e-mail to Orion, and kept this thread current.

I sent the email below to Orion this morning and I already got back a response.

Dave

==== begin paste ====
Subject: Orion Thin Off-Axis Guider for Astrophotography
FEB 09, 2014 | 02:26PM PST
Jeremy replied:

Thank you for contacting Orion Telescopes and Binoculars. Yes, new orders will have the upgraded Thin Off Axis Guiders.

If you have any further questions or concerns please do not hesitate to contact us.
Sincerely,
Jeremy A
Orion Customer Service
FEB 09, 2014 | 11:01AM PST
Original message
Dave wrote:

Hi,
I'm interested in the Orion Thin Off-Axis Guider for Astrophotography (Item # 05531). I read the Cloudy Nights forum and I know that there were some problems with this item and several of the forum members have received free "upgrade kits" to resolve those problems.

Are new orders for TOAGs shipped with upgraded components? If not, is the upgrade kit included with the order or does that need to be requested after receipt of the TOAG?

Sincerely,
Dave

==== end paste ====


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: dmcnally]
      #6366762 - 02/09/14 06:06 PM

Would be interesting to see if they get an uptick in orders now.

Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6367050 - 02/09/14 08:05 PM

This looks really promising to me. Thanks to everyone who kept on it. I'm pretty sure my ssag isn't sensitive enough for this, but I'm considering ordering one when I decide to upgrade my imaging cam and use my DSI as a guide cam.

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petemumbower
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: pdfermat]
      #6367164 - 02/09/14 08:52 PM

Chris - Do you use your TOAG with your ST-10XME? If so how do you have the image train setup?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: pdfermat]
      #6377336 - 02/15/14 08:28 AM

Has Orion been responsive to everyone here that requested replacement pieces. I called and requested them and they said no problem, but please email us with proof of purchase which I did. Even though I did, they said they couldn't see my order and would need proof of purchase so I sent it again and never heard back from them. I've been trying since last Friday to communicate with them about this.

Edited by josh smith (02/15/14 08:29 AM)


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Wmacky
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6377342 - 02/15/14 08:33 AM

They were pretty responsive for me but I bought the OAG direct, and they were able to look it up. I got a tracking number the next day.

Edited by Wmacky (02/15/14 12:05 PM)


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petemumbower
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6377362 - 02/15/14 08:51 AM

I agree, Orion is handling this very well. I received my parts on Thursday. I ordered direct originally and they did not need proof of purchase or even address. The updated parts look great and looks like they incorporated many of the ideas we discussed in this thread about improving it.

Now I need to figure out how it will couple with my ST2000XM.


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tazer
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6377371 - 02/15/14 09:03 AM

Josh, I bought my TOAG via Amazon and Orion tech support did request my proof of purchase. I emailed it to them and they shipped the kit out within a couple of days.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: tazer]
      #6377450 - 02/15/14 09:56 AM

Thanks for the responses guys. Hopefully my email just got misplaced. I'll contact them again today and update.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6377635 - 02/15/14 12:11 PM

As a FYI I had contacted Orion support before the fix was even developed. They put a note in my file and support sent it out as soon as it was ready. I didn't have to do anything else. So I give support a A+!

Cheers!


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6377820 - 02/15/14 01:59 PM

Hey Pete,

Sorry man, I didn't see this message. I have my ST-10/CFW10 tied together obviously. I screwed the TOAG directly to the CFW (no plate). Then I have a 10mm c-mount spacer on the guide camera side to my lodestar-m. That put it in the range I could adjust it on the 'stalk' to bring it to focus.

I adjusted the stalk so it's outside the window on my CFW10 and I haven't had any 'dimming' in my images because if it.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6377825 - 02/15/14 02:00 PM

Phil,

That's awesome. I did the same thing... apparently mine got lost . Still, I just have to send them my receipt from Amazon. No biggie.


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petemumbower
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6378027 - 02/15/14 04:06 PM

Chris - No biggie! This morning I mounted the TOAG to my ST2000XM and it was a pretty solid connection. When you say you screwed it directly, do you mean the threaded piece with the bayonet on one side? That is, the piece other than the EOS connector? I am waiting for my CFW-9 to come, hopefully next week. But want to see how it all will go together. How often do you us the TOAG instead of the internal guide chip of the ST-10?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6378158 - 02/15/14 05:25 PM

Not the EOS connector. There should've been a threaded one as well. I screwed that directly (and as snugly) as I could get it to the CFW10. Then, I attached with the 2 pressure screws that piece to the TOAG.

I only use the TOAG. The internal camera is neat... but it doesn't work very well when it comes to changing filters. I've been doing more narrowband lately, and I just don't have good luck guiding that way. Keep in mind I'm pretty much completely remote... so I can't manually select a guide star. If the software can't determine a good one, I'm screwed.

I really like the TOAG after I replaced the screws. I can't wait to get the replacement kit and make it even mo betta.


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petemumbower
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6378216 - 02/15/14 05:58 PM

Ok, gotcha on the connector. That is the one I used to get the TOAG attached. I am pretty much remote too and never had much luck with stars behind the filters with my old ST-8XE. So going with the TOAG and my QHY5L-II will be great. Plus seeing someone else use nearly the same image train is encouraging.

Are you using SGP? Think I saw you on the yahoo group for that. I am interested in next getting my flats automated and then the roll off roof.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6378224 - 02/15/14 06:01 PM

Update: Just finished swapping out the replacement parts and boy is this thing solid now! Any concerned I had before about flexure is now gone. Of course the proof will be when I have perfectly round stars. Now just to get some clear skies.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6378268 - 02/15/14 06:23 PM

I can also update: Orion wasn't sure what happened with my email, but they sent out a replacement unit within an hour of our phone conversation. Another A+ for customer service. Excited to see how the new unit performs.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: petemumbower]
      #6378303 - 02/15/14 06:44 PM

Pete,

Yea, I use SGP. Their flats automation is a bit basic; they basically run a wizard that determines the value and then don't update it through image capture. My favorite program for flats determined ADUs as it took pictures and updated the timing as required... (CCDAP). It works though. As for ROR automation, you can flip through my build thread or send me a PM and we can talk about it. I did all my automation work this last year and it was well worth it.

Controlling your telescope anywhere in the world with an internet connection is pretty awesome


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6404823 - 03/01/14 11:18 PM

Just got back from out of town with my replacement toag waiting at home. Wow, it is substantially more solid. Definitely seems to be a good deal with the upgrades they made. I will update with first light.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6406149 - 03/02/14 05:45 PM

Awesome, can't wait to get mine installed too. I've had good luck with my 'bigger' screws but it's nice to have a perfect product now.

Good job Orion


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6406399 - 03/02/14 07:30 PM

I'm guessing the Orion ssag isn't sensitive enough to work with this OAG, but I'd love to hear if anyone has tried it or had success with it.

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tazer
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: pdfermat]
      #6406576 - 03/02/14 09:34 PM

Pat, I'm using the SSAG with the Orion TOAG. While I haven't used it more than a handful of times, when I have I haven't had problems finding guide stars. A more sensitive guide cam would be ideal however.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: tazer]
      #6407282 - 03/03/14 10:56 AM

Thanks - I'm seriously considering heading in this direction. I figure I could try it with the SSAG I already have, and if that doesn't work, but my SSAG setup on the used market and re-invest the $$ on something like a QHY5-ii.

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tazer
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: pdfermat]
      #6407372 - 03/03/14 11:38 AM

I should mention that my scope is f/4.8 which is almost a full stop faster than yours. You may have a bit more trouble finding guidestars. Either way it's worth a shot.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: pdfermat]
      #6407426 - 03/03/14 12:11 PM

Pat, I have a lodestar, but I have to say this thing works pretty good.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6470704 - 04/17/14 12:10 AM

I received my TOAG today. Read the manual and discovered there was no figure 10. Guess what is on the top of a google search? Yep.

Anyway. To anybody else who may follow: I bought direct from Orion, and the fixes listed in this thread are incorporated. I also will note the stalk is SOLIDLY attached and a bit difficult to adjust...which is fine as that should be a one time adjustment.

Another thanks to those who provided feedback to Orion, and got this product improved.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6471094 - 04/17/14 08:36 AM

Congrats your purchase! I think you'll really enjoy the oag. Out of curiosity, do you plan on using the ssag, or do you have another guider you will be using?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6471148 - 04/17/14 09:10 AM

Congrat's Tom, I think you'll really like it.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: josh smith]
      #6471547 - 04/17/14 12:35 PM

Quote:

Congrats your purchase! I think you'll really enjoy the oag. Out of curiosity, do you plan on using the ssag, or do you have another guider you will be using?




I have a QHY5L-II guider.

After reading this thread, I added another part to make it work, "Baader 1.25"/T-2 Eyepiece Holder with Helical Microfocuser" from Agena Astro products.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6471558 - 04/17/14 12:40 PM

Thanks, Chris. Just about everything is a threaded connection with this TOAG, so hoping for nice round stars.

Not sure what had happened, but I'm guiding a 3 meter FL Mac with a 1 meter 'frac. At first it worked great, but now???? grrrrrr, either football stars or skidmarks

Edited by Tom and Beth (04/17/14 01:01 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6472724 - 04/17/14 11:15 PM

Yea, flexure can be a real pain. I think OAG is the way to go.

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calypsob
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6476800 - 04/20/14 05:17 AM

I just ordered one of these as well. Has anyone used the toag with the asi120mm for guiding? Im wondering what kind of focus distance I am going to need. Is there anything else I should know off the bat? Looking forwards to it's arrival.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6478058 - 04/20/14 08:53 PM

It's roughly 32mm from the middle of the prism to the top of the stalk.. so you'll just need to know the CCD to the thread distance which should be in the specifications. Then match that distance to your other camera.

On another note, does anyone know of a 'just' C-mount adapter. I got an STF-8300 and this thing sits too close to the camera with the big T-thread on it. Considering most guide cameras are... c-mount, you think this would exist .


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6478419 - 04/21/14 02:02 AM

Quote:

I just ordered one of these as well. Has anyone used the toag with the asi120mm for guiding? Im wondering what kind of focus distance I am going to need. Is there anything else I should know off the bat? Looking forwards to it's arrival.




I was looking at this camera today.

1) The ASI and TOAG BOTH have female T threads, so a Male T-T plus the correct spacing.

2) OR, the ASI comes with a 1.25 inch nosepiece. Mentioned earlier in the thread a Baader helical focuser is a great addition.


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6478421 - 04/21/14 02:10 AM

Chris,

Over the years I've bought T-C adapters and C adapters with 1.25 Inch Nosepiece. Agena, Ebay, etc has them relatively cheap.

Am I missing what you mean?


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6479829 - 04/21/14 07:48 PM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1-25-inch-double-Helical-focuser-0-1mm-scale-for-... wonder if i could use this helical instead of the baader?

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6479903 - 04/21/14 08:27 PM

Tom,

I'm talking about replacing the 'stalk' with a 'just' c-mount instead of using the t-thread to c-mount adapter. With my new camera, a STF-8300, the t-thread is 'just' close enough I can't use the darn thing...

I just bought the SBIG OAG... if anyone is interested in a TOAG, shoot me a PM. It works great!!! Just not with my currently configured STF-8300M. There are ways to make it work btw, it just won't fit in between my FW8 and the AT2FF and not hit the case of the FW8.



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calypsob
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6481469 - 04/22/14 03:24 PM

what is an fw8?

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Tom and Beth
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6481623 - 04/22/14 04:46 PM

That 1.25 inch focuser looks nice. It would have left my guiding camera too far away to reach focus.

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6481632 - 04/22/14 04:50 PM

I see now, Chris. Likely only Orion would have the answer on that, unless you made your own.

Was able to get round guide stars just as the clouds rolled in last night.


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ekallgren
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6487832 - 04/25/14 01:20 PM

Well I got my TOAG along with the spacer kit other day and started to figure out the spacing with my setup. Which by the way is a TPO 6" RC @ the native FL and a Canon 450D. I had a hell of a time. After about 3 hours in the house during the day to try to get the SSAG in focus with the DLSR I had a reasonable focus on both cameras. With a break in the clouds I setup just to see if I could find any guide stars. I was pleasantly surprised, I was able to center all of the following, M-51, M-81, M-82, M-101, and M-13 and find a star suitable to guide on. I was going to test for nice round stars on M-51 but the clouds rolled in and shut me down for the night. So that test will have to wait. But all in all a very successful evening. Things are looking up!
Literally.
Eric


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Tom and Beth
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: ekallgren]
      #6488513 - 04/25/14 06:18 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Keep at it, as it DOES work, by Jove!

I posted a full res image link in the DSLR group (2 below this one) so will only show the lower res jpg here. This is M3 taken at a little over 2 meter FL with a T3i.

Thanks for all that helped make the TOAG a better product!

Edited by Tom and Beth (04/25/14 06:19 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6488762 - 04/25/14 08:50 PM

Woohoo! Looks like you guys are cooking now. Nice one Tom!

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calypsob
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6489401 - 04/26/14 09:10 AM

Lookin good. Question. What does your phd graph look like when you use an oag? I use PHD2 and set the graphs to read out pixels instead of arcseconds and I am wondering if I am going to still get the same type of graph which appears below 1 and above -1? Or do things change because I am so zoomed in?

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josh smith
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6489408 - 04/26/14 09:16 AM

Quote:

Lookin good. Question. What does your phd graph look like when you use an oag? I use PHD2 and set the graphs to read out pixels instead of arcseconds and I am wondering if I am going to still get the same type of graph which appears below 1 and above -1? Or do things change because I am so zoomed in?




Your graph is definitely going to be spikier using an oag if you previously used a short focal length guide scope. It takes some getting used to. I went from perfectly smooth guide graphs with horrible stars before the toag, to somewhat jagged graphs with beautiful stars after the change.

Realistically, the arcseconds should give you a better indication of how your image will come out, but it is just a relative scale transformation, so either one will tell you basically the same thing.


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calypsob
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: ekallgren]
      #6494191 - 04/28/14 04:07 PM

Quote:

Well I got my TOAG along with the spacer kit other day and started to figure out the spacing with my setup. Which by the way is a TPO 6" RC @ the native FL and a Canon 450D. I had a hell of a time. After about 3 hours in the house during the day to try to get the SSAG in focus with the DLSR I had a reasonable focus on both cameras. With a break in the clouds I setup just to see if I could find any guide stars. I was pleasantly surprised, I was able to center all of the following, M-51, M-81, M-82, M-101, and M-13 and find a star suitable to guide on. I was going to test for nice round stars on M-51 but the clouds rolled in and shut me down for the night. So that test will have to wait. But all in all a very successful evening. Things are looking up!
Literally.



How many extension rings did you need on the RC6 and do you use a flattener?
Eric




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ekallgren
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6499205 - 04/30/14 10:14 PM

No flatner, and I had the 2 inch extension on the scope a I think its a 2mm extension on the guide camera.
Eric


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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: calypsob]
      #6499330 - 04/30/14 11:19 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Quote:

Lookin good. Question. What does your phd graph look like when you use an oag? I use PHD2 and set the graphs to read out pixels instead of arcseconds and I am wondering if I am going to still get the same type of graph which appears below 1 and above -1? Or do things change because I am so zoomed in?




That depends. Here's a screen shot with the TOAG and QHY5L-II working at a little over 2 meters FL. I'm set to read arc seconds,

Edited by Tom and Beth (04/30/14 11:20 PM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6499343 - 04/30/14 11:30 PM

Tom, you're getting good results it looks like. Congrats!

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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6499353 - 04/30/14 11:34 PM

Indeed, with this TOAG the problems I had this season are a memory. And finding guide stars hasn't been an issue. Thanks again for your help when I was looking for advice. Weather shut imaging down again tonight. grrrr

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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6560777 - 06/03/14 10:04 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

So I finally had a chance to put my upgraded Orion TOAG through it's paces at TSP this week. I decided to compare it with data from Okie-Tex last year. The equipment is the same except the guider and guide camera. At Okie-Tex the is was using an Orion ST 80mm guide scope with SSAG. At TSP I was using the Orion TOAG with QHY5L-II. The data from Okie-Tex was 5 min subs. The data from TSP was 5 min subs for comparison plus 10min subs to see what would happen with longer subs.

I thought my data from Okie-Tex was good (stars were mostly round) but didn't realize how fat they were until I ran the pre-processed subs (darks, flats) through CCD inspector. Looking at the table below you can certainly see an improvement in the FWHM and slight improvement in roundness (Aspect %). The only issue is I don't have an idea of the difference in seeing between the two nights but they should be similar. I would certainly think that would not account for the large difference in FWHM. I also believe they were both well focused so I do believe I see a big improvement using the TOAG. I think next step would be to vary the parameters in PHD2 or use MetaGuide to see if I can make it better. Haven't had an issue finding guide stars. All in all I am happy with the improved Orion TOAG.

Helix from Okie-Tex https://www.flickr.com/photos/64608741@N06/10108597913/

M106 from TSP https://www.flickr.com/photos/64608741@N06/14150989168/

Edited by Phillip Easton (06/03/14 10:19 AM)


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6560785 - 06/03/14 10:06 AM Attachment (3 downloads)

Here is the guide log from Okie-Tex. As you can see I hadn't eliminated all of the PE with guiding.

Edited by Phillip Easton (06/03/14 10:20 AM)


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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6560788 - 06/03/14 10:07 AM Attachment (3 downloads)

Guide log from TSP, much lower peak to peak and RMS error with the TOAG.

Edited by Phillip Easton (06/03/14 10:08 AM)


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6561953 - 06/03/14 08:58 PM

Nice job, Philip. Are you a PI guy? You could post your eccentricity graphs too.

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Phillip Easton
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Raginar]
      #6562889 - 06/04/14 11:51 AM

Chris, I have PI but haven't had a chance to play with it yet, I'll look into the graphs.

Thanks,


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svtdoug
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: Phillip Easton]
      #6579278 - 06/12/14 07:33 PM

Wow, wish I had discovered this tread a few months ago!

Thankfully, by the time I ordered my TOAG (February 2014), they were shipping ver. 2 with two set screws on each side of the mating parts. So here is what I have learned about the TOAG and what I have done to make it work for me.

1. First off, although the instructions recommend that the two mounts be adjusted so no prism stalk is exposed, I would say that is a hard requirement in order to maintain stability. No stalk exposed!

2. I tried to make the TOAG work with my original SSAG camera. This is a real compromise on several points. First, with the screw in mount of the SSAG, you are already at a real handicap - in that your only means of focusing the guide camera is to battle 6 set screws to vary the distance between the prism and the camera (refer to #1 above - no stalk exposed) for fine focus control, and the use of spacers for rough focus. This is tedious and results in less than optimum guide camera focus. Secondly, the SSAG is just not sensitive enough to reliably find quide stars. On a recent 4 night imaging trip at a Blue light-zone site, I was only able to find guide stars about 60% of the time, and that was after rotating the camera around and messing with the horizontal positioning of the prism. This was with an Orion 8" f/3.9 Astrograph reflector.

3. Solution to above, purchase a QHY5L-II guide camera (or the new Orion StarShooter Autoguide Pro - which appears to be the same as the QHY5L-II). This camera solves both of the issues above; more sensitivity, and easy focus and orientation by adjusting the depth of the eyepiece by using an eyepiece to T-thread adapter.

4. As others have discovered in this thread - Badder makes a great little focusing eyepiece to T-thread adapter - https://www.astrofactors.com/adaptors/product/70-badder-deluxe-focusing-eyepi... In fact, I purchased both the QHY5L-II and the Badder adapter from Astrofactors. Bruce, the owner, was very helpful. With the use of this adapter, and the parfocal ring which comes with the QHY5L-II, its easy to acquire focus AND maintain the proper chip to prism orientation. The Badder ring is a bit pricy at $56, but worth it in my opinion. Other, less expensive non-focusing adapters are also available.

5. The Orion TOAG instructions are really deficient on several points.
a. First off, they suggest adjusting the stalk and prism height as one of the first steps. No! That should be one of the last steps to achieve focus or focus range using an eyepiece holder and eyepiece size guide camera. And again, the stalk should not be exposed. Focus should be achieved by varying the depth of the prism into the light path - with obvious limits in and out. Too far in and you will impact the light path to the main imaging camera. Too far out and the prism will be shaded by the TOAG housing.
b. The instruction are very unclear about how to adjust focus with the stalk/prism depth and which set screws to adjust. They refer to figure 10 and there is no figure 10!
c. The instruction don't even mention the three set screws in the guide camera mount circular plate, which presumably would allow an SSAG type guide camera to be held firm if not tightened all the way with the SSAG mounting threads, to help achieve focus or to align the chip with the prism orientation.

6. My first EOS adapter ring was so tight I could not get it into place on the camera without tools! Orion promptly sent me a new one, but that one was loose and would cause movement between the camera and the whole TOAG assembly. Based on the photos which Phillip posted, I have not received the newer EOS adapter, so Orion is sending me a new one today. Hopefully that one will be tight, but not too tight!

Well, how does the TOAG perform? You have to get used to guiding on - in my case - 800mm fl instead of 400 fl, but once you get used to that different scale, and make adjustments in PHD, and don't panic that the guide graph is all over the place, the results are a real improvement. Rounder and smaller stars and more acceptable subs. Further work on PHD settings should produce even better results

Thanks to Phillip, Chris, Tom and others for all the work they have done and feedback to Orion which prompted the TOAG upgrades!

I hope this helps.

Doug


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Raginar
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Re: New Orion "thin" OAG new [Re: svtdoug]
      #6579327 - 06/12/14 08:06 PM

Glad it helped Doug! I'm pretty sure your feedback will make a huge difference for 'noobs' trying this thing for the first time.

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