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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning and Intermediate Imaging

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Madratter
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Reged: 01/14/13

Detail in the Soul Nebula
      #6257240 - 12/16/13 10:31 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

This object is normally done as a wide field, but there is plenty of detail in it as can be seen here. This is 35 HA subs of 5 minutes each binned 2x2 (total of 2 hour 55 minutes).



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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6257271 - 12/16/13 10:50 PM

That looks nice. I was wondering which part you were shooting

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jbalsam
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6257289 - 12/16/13 11:09 PM

Your image (at full resolution) shows a denoising issue that I've been curious about while playing with PixInsight. I use their a trous wavelets transform, and I see the same thing as in your image (when I'm denoising images that I know could use more data): fairly smooth results, with randomly interspersed darker pixels. I've played with settings quite a bit to try to remove them, but I can't do it without producing an objectionably "over smoothed" look. Have you noticed the same thing?

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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6257320 - 12/16/13 11:38 PM

Quote:

Your image (at full resolution) shows a denoising issue that I've been curious about while playing with PixInsight. I use their a trous wavelets transform, and I see the same thing as in your image (when I'm denoising images that I know could use more data): fairly smooth results, with randomly interspersed darker pixels. I've played with settings quite a bit to try to remove them, but I can't do it without producing an objectionably "over smoothed" look. Have you noticed the same thing?




Not trying to usurp his thread but have you tried cosmetic correction?


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CounterWeight
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6257334 - 12/16/13 11:49 PM

Nice close up of what I call the mouth part of this nebula . You have a lot of detail in there given your exposure time. The lower level signal starts becoming granular, only thing I think would help is longer sub exposures.

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jbalsam
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #6257353 - 12/17/13 12:02 AM

Terry - no I haven't. If you look at Madratter's image at full resolution you'll see what I'm talking about. There are literally hundreds of thousands of darker pixels fairly evenly distributed all over the image (noise remnants). Cosmetic correction as I understand it would not be feasible (i.e. going through the image in PS with the spot removal tool or something like that). The only way I've solved it is by taking more data. The only time it's really an issue is when I want to share an image after one or two nights of integration (before it's really complete). It seems like the sort of issue that PI would be able to solve easily. All of the problem pixels are single pixels (first level wavelets?), but for some reason they don't get removed. Maybe they're just too far beyond the standard deviation of other nearby pixels to be considered as noise?

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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6257619 - 12/17/13 08:07 AM

Thanks Terry. This section is centered around IC 1871 instead of the Soul Nebula proper which is IC 1848.

Thanks Jim. I had planned to collect more data on it the other night. Two hours in, I discovered I had centered it wrong. Doh! I then switched over to the Jellyfish.

Josh, I have certainly noticed what you are talking about and it is a pain. I think you can reduce it by doing the initial integration with Winsorized and the lower bounds at 2 instead of the default 4. But I have stopped doing that because of the risk of clipping real signal.

I did the noise reduction here using tgvDenoise so it is not just a atrous wavelets issue.

And hijack away guys. As I have stated in the past, I never mind technical discussions hijacking my threads.

Edited by Madratter (12/17/13 08:08 AM)


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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6257686 - 12/17/13 08:58 AM

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong process. It's been a while since I had the issue some time ago.

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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6257696 - 12/17/13 09:03 AM

Quote:

Thanks Terry. This section is centered around IC 1871 instead of the Soul Nebula proper which is IC 1848.

Thanks Jim. I had planned to collect more data on it the other night. Two hours in, I discovered I had centered it wrong. Doh! I then switched over to the Jellyfish.





Did you intend to image IC 1848? I shot that last night with better stars in the lower right hand portion of the image after removing the filter from the carousel and putting it back in.


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Footbag
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6257751 - 12/17/13 09:34 AM

Looks good. I've passed this up as a long FL target for a while. You found a spot with some very nice interest.

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DrDispatch
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Reged: 10/26/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6257756 - 12/17/13 09:37 AM

Very kewl image MR, as usual !
Terry- remove & replace that filter made the corners better?
wonder if the male threads are cut a little off on the filter itself?


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Madratter
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Reged: 01/14/13

Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: DrDispatch]
      #6257857 - 12/17/13 10:35 AM

Terry, I deliberately went after this section. I had spotted it in other wider images and knew I wanted to do it.

Thanks Adam and Dr.


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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6257863 - 12/17/13 10:38 AM

Terry, I'm happy to hear you got some better results. With my carousel the filters are held flat with some rubber rings.

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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: DrDispatch]
      #6257878 - 12/17/13 10:45 AM

Quote:

Very kewl image MR, as usual !
Terry- remove & replace that filter made the corners better?
wonder if the male threads are cut a little off on the filter itself?




Interesting hypothesis. I was assuming that the glass was tilted but maybe your explanation is correct. I have the Astrodon ordered and will see what it does


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DrDispatch
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Reged: 10/26/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6257976 - 12/17/13 11:41 AM

i used to be a machinist. was the 70's, still these long runs of parts on these modern machines have to have variances, be my luck to get one of the several cut during setup process:)

some of this stuff you can throw $$ at it and not get rewarded. the astrodons seem to be the best in this case


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DrDispatch
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: DrDispatch]
      #6257978 - 12/17/13 11:43 AM

terry, the glass may be tilted!! I had not thought of that:))
opinions are like.....:))))
but someone will guess it right!!!

I had the QHY FW and the 2" baaders caught about 1.5 threads, that was all there was, so thin!

Edited by DrDispatch (12/17/13 11:45 AM)


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rigel123
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6258084 - 12/17/13 12:40 PM

That's close to the same FOV I used for my image of this one, great job!

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SergeC
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Reged: 03/23/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6258263 - 12/17/13 02:29 PM

Nice shot, there's some cool detail and structure there.

It does look a bit grainy in the low signal area, but I don't think it detracts from the image overall. I'm finding I need to grab at least 4-6hr of Ha to smooth out that low signal.


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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: SergeC]
      #6258608 - 12/17/13 05:26 PM

Quote:

Nice shot, there's some cool detail and structure there.

It does look a bit grainy in the low signal area, but I don't think it detracts from the image overall. I'm finding I need to grab at least 4-6hr of Ha to smooth out that low signal.




Yes, I am finding that low signal areas at f/7.5 to be tough with just a few hours anyway.


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Madratter
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Reged: 01/14/13

Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6258632 - 12/17/13 05:37 PM

My guess is that the ideal exposure where read noise gets overwhelmed is probably at least ten and more probably twenty plus minutes. Unfortunately, until I get OAG going, I need to live with five minute exposures. That is fine for LRGB where it does hit or come close to ideal exposure times.

My telescope is running at roughly f/5.8.


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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6258635 - 12/17/13 05:39 PM

I should add that I definitely could have used more aggressive noise reduction but then you have the problem with things looking artificial and plastic like.

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jbalsam
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6258658 - 12/17/13 05:53 PM

Agreed, Madratter - too much denoising makes things look far worse.

I'm curious about why you are limited to 5min exposures with a guide scope. What problems are you seeing at longer exposures?


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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6258728 - 12/17/13 06:32 PM

I have enough flexure in the system that stars go noticeably out of round in reasonable seeing after that amount of time. I actually could go longer with my C8 despite mirror flop. My guess is that the flexure in the AT8RC is from the way the focuser is mounted to the primary. Just .2 arc-second of movement a minute leads to an error of 2 arc-seconds which is easily noticeable after 10 minutes. I hate eggs. Hence why I will probably be getting a OAG soon.

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jbalsam
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6258744 - 12/17/13 06:40 PM

Weird. It does look like most people on AstroBin who use the AT8RC use an OAG. I see a few examples of people taking 10min images with guidescopes, but they are few and far between.

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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6258759 - 12/17/13 06:47 PM

Quote:

My guess is that the ideal exposure where read noise gets overwhelmed is probably at least ten and more probably twenty plus minutes. Unfortunately, until I get OAG going, I need to live with five minute exposures. That is fine for LRGB where it does hit or come close to ideal exposure times.

My telescope is running at roughly f/5.8.




Hmmm....I'm shooting 10 and 15 min subs now in NB.I should probably try 30 but I'd hate to lose any of those!


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DrDispatch
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Reged: 10/26/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6258799 - 12/17/13 07:08 PM

i can go 20 min most times, almost every time i go 30 min something happens.
also I do not see much gain on my system above 15-20 min.


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SergeC
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Reged: 03/23/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6258811 - 12/17/13 07:16 PM

Quote:

Agreed, Madratter - too much denoising makes things look far worse.

I'm curious about why you are limited to 5min exposures with a guide scope. What problems are you seeing at longer exposures?



Me, too. I'm over the half-max load on my CGEM, and can get 15min at 800mm focal length, guiding with a Mag-Mini, and not have to throw away any subs (last night I shot 4 hours worth at 15min each, kept 'em all).


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jbalsam
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: SergeC]
      #6258830 - 12/17/13 07:28 PM

Well... Madratter is using a heavier camera than you are, Serge. Maybe that's causing additional flexure in the focuser/mirror cell connection?

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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6258895 - 12/17/13 08:19 PM

Serge is shooting the AT8IN, not the AT8RC so he doesn't have the same problem in terms of the mounting of the mirror cell. And the heaviness of the camera is probably a factor.

Edited by Madratter (12/17/13 08:20 PM)


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SergeC
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6259064 - 12/17/13 09:56 PM

OK, that makes sense.

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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: rigel123]
      #6259079 - 12/17/13 10:07 PM

Quote:

That's close to the same FOV I used for my image of this one, great job!




Thanks! I went looking for yours. Very nice.


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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6261032 - 12/18/13 10:31 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

Well we are dancing in the moonlight tonight gathering some more data for this. Actually, I already have all the subs and have switched to another target. I got some color data but more importantly, I got some 10m subs that look pretty good. As far as ideal exposure time, SGP was telling me 15.7 minutes for Ha at 2x2.

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hytham
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Reged: 12/25/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6261185 - 12/19/13 12:59 AM

What State do you live in?

I haven't had a clear sky in weeks.


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Madratter
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Reged: 01/14/13

Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: hytham]
      #6261245 - 12/19/13 02:39 AM

Maryland. I don't have the best skies in the world, but far from the worst.

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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6261361 - 12/19/13 06:55 AM

Quote:

Maryland. I don't have the best skies in the world, but far from the worst.




I think you live in an alternate universe!


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jbalsam
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6262025 - 12/19/13 02:18 PM

I'm in MD, too (Montgomery County). Isn't it great how the clear nights always seem to land near the full moon?

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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: jbalsam]
      #6262035 - 12/19/13 02:23 PM

It does seem to work out that way.

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Madratter
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6262504 - 12/19/13 07:19 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

As mentioned, I got some more data last night: RGB of 30, 30, and 35 minutes, plus another 110 minutes of Ha. 90 of that was with 10 minute exposures, which really helped. Total integration time is now 380 minutes (6 hours 20 minutes).

The color version can be found here:



And here is a crop of the processed HA data.

Edited by Madratter (12/19/13 07:22 PM)


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terry59
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: Madratter]
      #6262539 - 12/19/13 07:41 PM

The additional Ha smoothed the faint stuff and the blend went very well.

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CounterWeight
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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: terry59]
      #6262573 - 12/19/13 08:03 PM

Madratter that is nice stuff, very nice! I'd love to see a mosaic at this resolution projected on a wall screen .

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DrDispatch
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Reged: 10/26/12

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Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #6263263 - 12/20/13 09:27 AM

awesome results MR!!!!
looks like tracking is dead on.
I have same mount, been bragging on guiding. not been so good lately. next session will be re learning guiding, settings etc.


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Madratter
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Reged: 01/14/13

Re: Detail in the Soul Nebula new [Re: DrDispatch]
      #6263536 - 12/20/13 11:31 AM

Thanks! Given the color data was collected at full Moon, I'm pretty pleased with how it came out.

Terry, the extra HA really did help a lot as did the longer subs. It is visible in the crops here, but especially at full size.

Jim, I would too. One of these days I have to figure the Mosaic stuff out. I tried one on the horsehead and it was a disaster around Alnitak. And that was in just HA.

Dr., I find with my Atlas that balancing is critical, especially for stuff around 20 degrees or so declination. I have also found that at least with PHD2 (I think this happened with PHD1 as well), something weird is going on. I can have pretty bad tracking, deselect and reselect the same star, and then tracking can be great. I don't understand that at all. At any rate, with this being high declination, good tracking is easier to achieve.


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