Greyhoundman
sage
   
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 296
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Is anyone here planning on trying to observe or even photograph the event?
http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation.htm
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Edited by Greyhoundman (04/30/09 02:06 PM)
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34547
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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I'll be watching, if the skies are clear. Unfortunately, the impact is due to take place at the height of Arizona's summer thunderstorm season. There's a better than even chance clouds will be in my way.
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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terrapin
super member
Reged: 03/15/09
Posts: 146
Loc: Oakland, CA
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When is the impact scheduled? Can't find it anywhere on the site.
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Greyhoundman
sage
   
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 296
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Scheduled for late August. The exact time and date will announced as they pick the crater for the impact. The site will be updated as new info is available.
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Yes, there is a group that was started by the LCROSS Public Outreach Team at:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation?lnk=srg
Presently, activity is low but will probably pickup as the June 2009 Sky & Telescope article hits the newstands and the June 2 launch date comes closer.
There are loads of information on the "Pages" section of that observation group site.
There also is a Selenology Today issue, issue no. 13, dedicated to LCROSS at:
http://digilander.libero.it/glrgroup/journal.htm (4megs)
- that is heavy on the science background and background on pre-event imaging practice.
Key info pages at the LCROSS Observation site are:
LCROSS Obs Group (unofficial) FAQ http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/lcross-faq
List of imaging-observing windows for favorable librations for the north and south poles through September:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/librations-in-latitude-list
Impact candidate finder maps at the poles:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders
Probably next to practice imaging at the poles, the best thing that newsgroup members can do at this point is to email the LCROSS public affairs officer and urge them to work with Goddard Space Flight Operations to release launch path predictions (by RA and Dec) for the outbound LRO-LCROSS booster during the first 10 hours of flight. This would have to be done in real time shortly after launch. See Selenology Today article at 81. It may be possible to image hydrogren fuel dumps and/or track the satellite on its path towards the moon for the first 30 hours of flight. See the Selenology Today article at page 7 and 71-83. A similar outbound imaging event occured with Apollo in 1971.
Jonas Dino Office of Public Affairs NASA's Ames Research Center Moffett Field, Calif. Jonas.Dino@nasa.gov
Dino is the contact per the official LCROSS NASA Site at:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/news/index.html
The major internet points for following the mission are:
The above NASA site The above google LCROSS observation group
The LCROSS Twitter site http://twitter.com/LCROSS_NASA
The LCROSS Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/LCROSS-Lunar-Impactor-Mission/154478180006?ref=s
Animation-movies giving an overview of the Mission at the LCROSS observation group site:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/animations
The best of the online animations is a recent 11 minute KQED segment:
http://www.kqed.org/quest/television/nasa-ames-rocket-to-the-moon
- Clear Skies, Kurt
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Sol
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: Powys, Wales, UK
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A great set of links - thanks. Not sure how vsiible the impact will be, but I will be watching with the 8" if the weather permits.
Mark
-------------------- Visit the Sunnymeade Astro Solar Blog
http://sunnymeadeastro.blogspot.com/
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Jerry3672
Vendor - Quantum Astronomy Products
   
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Lexington NC
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The launch is set for June 17th at 3:51pm Eastern time.
I plan on a few more practice shots of the north and south poles. Focus is tricky when you are that far North or South on the Moon.
How are others planning on shooting?
I have a C11 and a SN10 for scopes. I will use a Canon XSi or an Imaging Source DFK41 for my camera. My best photos of the moon have all been with the SN10-Canon XSi combo. We will have about 2 or 3 minuets of imaging time from impact, so I may play around with a video with the C11.
Looks like we will have at least 72 days from launch before impact.
I can't wait!!
-------------------- Meade LXD75-SN-8, SN-10, C11
DSI Pro
Canon XSi 450D unmod
www.spike-a.com Bahtinov Style Focus Mask
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Mare Nectaris
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 1430
Loc: Toijala, Finland
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NASA has set a new launch date for LCROSS/LRO. It is set for June 18th, 5.12 pm EDT. The reason for this delay is the space-shuttle Endeavour (STS-127) scheduled to depart on June 17th 5.40 am, EDT. See NASA Launch Schedule.
Countdown to Launch Window is set to tick! - It's time to start to clear the optics
See also discussions on Unmanned Spaceflight -forum on LCROSS/LRO. This far there are discussions upon development of the project and launch.
Be well!
-------------------- Share - and you shall have it all
Timo Keski-Petäjä
CtheMoon
Observation shelter KuuMaja (MoonHut)
TAL 250K*Celestron C8-N*SkyWatcher Skymax 150 Pro*TAL1(Mizar)*EQ6 Pro SynScan*Celestron Advanced GT (CG-5 GOTO)*Baader Hyperion Clickstop Zoom 8-24*17 mm UWA-70*TeleVue BIG 2x Barlow*Celestron 2x Barlow Ultima SV Series
Edited by Mare Nectaris (06/15/09 04:49 PM)
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34547
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Thanks for the update!
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS Science Briefing 6-16 9EDT YouTube Podcast
Internet podcast of this morning's mission science briefing on LRO and LCROSS for the June 18 launch.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=NASAtelevision&view=videos
YouTube broadcast of the NASA LRO-LCROSS Press Briefing held June 15, 2009. LCROSS starts at min 21:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-GXjR_CZSE
For June 15 conference, impact Visibility is discussed at min 28: A June 18 launch gives a south pole impact on Oct. 9.
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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Mare Nectaris
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 1430
Loc: Toijala, Finland
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They had camera onboard: what a view on the liftoff on NASA TV 
We were able to see wonderful climb into space and the launch stage separation!
May she fly well!
-------------------- Share - and you shall have it all
Timo Keski-Petäjä
CtheMoon
Observation shelter KuuMaja (MoonHut)
TAL 250K*Celestron C8-N*SkyWatcher Skymax 150 Pro*TAL1(Mizar)*EQ6 Pro SynScan*Celestron Advanced GT (CG-5 GOTO)*Baader Hyperion Clickstop Zoom 8-24*17 mm UWA-70*TeleVue BIG 2x Barlow*Celestron 2x Barlow Ultima SV Series
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Mare Nectaris
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 1430
Loc: Toijala, Finland
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If somebody has not yet seen this wideo clip of the LCROSS/LRO launch by NASA TV, go and C ! The feeling of climbing into orbit is simply fantastic!
Be well all!
-------------------- Share - and you shall have it all
Timo Keski-Petäjä
CtheMoon
Observation shelter KuuMaja (MoonHut)
TAL 250K*Celestron C8-N*SkyWatcher Skymax 150 Pro*TAL1(Mizar)*EQ6 Pro SynScan*Celestron Advanced GT (CG-5 GOTO)*Baader Hyperion Clickstop Zoom 8-24*17 mm UWA-70*TeleVue BIG 2x Barlow*Celestron 2x Barlow Ultima SV Series
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Mare Nectaris
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 1430
Loc: Toijala, Finland
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Next interesting date and time for the mission is LOI (Lunar Orbit Insertion) for the LCROSS/Centaur, expected on tuesday 23rd of June 2009, at 5:43 EDT (9:43 UTC). LRO separated from the LCROSS/Centaur on T+ 44 min 45 sec, and LRO got a single ride towards the Moon. See Spaceflight Now Mission Status Center, edited by Justin Ray.
This LOI will effectively put LCROSS/Centaur into an elongated Earth polar orbit, which eventually will give the duo good maneuverability, high impact angle and enough energy for the Oct 9th impact, around 7:30 am EDT.
NASA TV is planning to send live coverage on the expected LOI -occasion.
To get us an impression what is about to happen, on Unmanned Spaceflight -forum BrianJ (post # 25) has generated two cool simulations (with the data he has acquired), presenting a simulation of ICPS (Instrument Calibration Pointing Sequence) as seen with "instrument line-of-sight" and as seen with an "external view".
Be well all!
Edited by Mare Nectaris (06/19/09 06:29 AM)
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MoonChild
sage
Reged: 04/27/09
Posts: 280
Loc: upstate ny
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this is gonna be sweeet!!! lol 
thanks for all the info everyone, last i knew it was the Oct 8th, 9 sounds even better! lol
exciting stuff!!
clear skies!
-------------------- *newb*
“Astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and leads us from this world to another” ~ Plato
~Kopernik Observatory
~C.Forks
my amateur astronomy pics
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Freddy WILLEMS
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/13/05
Posts: 2547
Loc: Hawaii, Honolulu
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Thanks for the updates Timo !
Please do keep us informed, I do not want to miss this event !
7:30 AM EDT that's around 11.30 PM Hawaiian local time the day before october 8, 2009 ?
The moon will be very low on the Horizon here.
Can they not postpone it a few hours ??
-------------------- Freddy
Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier
Celestron C 14" Peltier cooled for planetary imaging.
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED
DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D Unmoddified
Canon 40D Hutech moddified
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Jerry3672
Vendor - Quantum Astronomy Products
   
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Lexington NC
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Quote:
Thanks for the updates Timo ! Please do keep us informed, I do not want to miss this event ! 7:30 AM EDT that's around 11.30 PM Hawaiian local time the day before october 8, 2009 ?
NASA has picked a time that will allow most of the US view the impact. Here on the east coast the Sun will be on the rise. The moon will be very low on the Horizon here. Can they not postpone it a few hours ??
NASA has picked a time that will allow most of the US view the impact. Here on the east coast the Sun will be on the rise
-------------------- Meade LXD75-SN-8, SN-10, C11
DSI Pro
Canon XSi 450D unmod
www.spike-a.com Bahtinov Style Focus Mask
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RobertED
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 07/11/03
Posts: 1189
Loc: Johnston, RI
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Will be using my C-11. Just not sure how to photograph the event. Could be using my Meade LPI, or try to buy a Celestron NexImage...I hear it's better!?! Any ideas???
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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MoonThumper Jun 22, 9:20 am
From: MoonThumper <brianh...@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Local: Mon, Jun 22 2009 9:20 am Subject: LCROSS Lunar Flyby Video to be Streamed
After its successful launch, LCROSS is now on its way to the Moon. At Launch +5 days, the spacecraft will perform a lunar swingby to enter into an elongated Earth orbit to position LCROSS for impact at the lunar south pole. LCROSS lunar swingby video stream coverage will begin at approximately 5:20 AM PDT on Tuesday, June 23, 2009. Please check http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/lunarswingby/ for updates.
Brian [Day, LCROSS Team Public Education Officer]
Originally posted: http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/browse_thread/thread/39a0017ac41a88e2
- Clear skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Imaging ops for LCROSS during cruise orbit one Was #3174079 - 06/21/09 02:17 AM
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders-cruise-orbits
The above page presents my quick analysis of favorable imaging windows to acquire the LCROSS-Centaur spacecraft during its cruise orbit one.
Lunar phases during cruise orbit one favor attempts to image the LCROSS-Centaur spacecraft by observers in the southern hemisphere between July 19 through the First Quarter Moon on July 28. Northern hemisphere observers are disfavored and have only a brief low-altitude imaging window before the First Quarter Moon of June 29 as LCROSS rises of the northwest horizon beginning on June 26.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
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LCROSS outbound tracking emphemeris Earth to Moon Was #3169650 - 06/18/09 12:36 PM
The LRO-LCROSS launch is set for a 5:12EDT (3:12 MDT) (21UT) today. (At the time of this posting, the launch counter is at 4:40.) The following message was just posted on another newsgroup by the Horizons Team. The LCROSS Centaur booster trans-lunar orbit projected coordinates have been updated into the Horizons system.
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi
Use "LCROSS" as the "Target Body". RA-Dec predicted positions are topocentric sensitive, so use your local "named location" city as the geographic location, not geocentric.
Live coverage begins at 2pm EDT (20UT).
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
KSC live launchpad video of the launch can be seen at:
http://countdown.ksc.nasa.gov/elv/
Typical pre-launch countdown activities for an Atlas V launch can be found at:
NASA Atlas V Countdown 101 FAQ http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/launch/atlas_V_count_101.html
A primitive first-order model of outbound Centaur visibility during trans lunar orbit can be found at physical pages 7, 74-83 (digital pages 10, 77-86) of Issue No. 13 of Selenology Today at:
http://digidownload.libero.it/glrgroup/selenologytoday13.pdf (4.5 megs) (mag 6.5 at 5k decreasing to mag 13.8 at 150,000k)
There is no magnitude estimate in the Horizons system empheris.
There is no list of scheduled hydrogen fuel dumps. At a mission briefing on June 16, an LRO project scientist stated all fuel dumps would be completed before hand-off of the Centaur to LCROSS team flight control 4 hours into the flight.
- Clear Skies Kurt
======= Horizons Message
With the shuttle launch scrubbed, the Moon-fated LCROSS mission is currently go for 2009-Jun-18 21:12 UTC launch (tomorrow).
The trajectory has been updated accordingly in Horizons (based on navigation team planning), for those who want to track it, or avoid confusing it for an asteroid in Earth vicinity.
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons
---------------------------------------------------------- Jon Giorgini | Navigation & Mission Design Section Senior Analyst | Solar System Dynamics Group Jon.Giorg...@jpl.nasa.gov | Jet Propulsion Laboratory
==========
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS cruise orbit acquisition June 26-28 Was #3171996 - 06/19/09 05:41 PM
=================
From LCROSS Facebook and Flight Director's Blog http://www.facebook.com/pages/LCROSS-Lunar-Impactor-Mission/154478180006?ref=s
LCROSS Lunar Impactor Mission Paul, our Flight Directory, posted a blog about LCROSS's first night in space, at http://wiki.nasa.gov/cm/blog/lcrossfdblog LCROSS is currently on its way to swing-by the moon. Closest approach is timed for June 23 (DOY174) 10:28 UTC. Then LCROSS goes into a Lunar Gravity Assist Lunar Return Orbit (LGALRO) for 113 days until impacting south pole Oct 9 (DOY283) 11:30 UTC.
==================
LCROSS cruise orbit acquisition
Horizon's ephemeris data for LCROSS (for my topoecentric o.p. at 110W and at 6UT each), indicates that acquisition imaging attempts for LCROSS for larger apetures might become practical between June 26 through 28. After June 28, increasing First Quarter Moon to Full Moon sky washout will interfere.
LCROSS Ephemeris for 110W 41N (modified NASA JPL Horizons data)
Date-time UT RA Dec Alt Az SOT Const Jun-19 06 051124.04+104844.4 344 -37 15 Ori Jun-20 06 060500.85+174703.6 333 -27 6 Ori Jun-21 06 062424.94+194718.1 330 -23 6 Gem Jun-22 06 063700.30+210241.5 329 -21 8 Gem Jun-23 06 064425.29+222015.0 328 -20 8 Gem Jun-24 06 072652.87+323702.4 325 -7 18 Gem Jun-25 06 083257.05+395958.6 319 5 33 Lyn Jun-26 06 094418.89+440326.1 313 17 46 UMa Jun-27 06 105428.70+445954.2 307 27 58 UMa Jun-28 06 m 115711.67+432850.9 299 36 68 UMa Jun-29 06 m 124950.06+402024.2 291 43 78 CVn Jun-30 06 m 133301.19+361616.9 281 48 86 CVn Jul-01 06 m 140838.66+314400.1 270 52 94 Boo Jul-02 06 m 143837.52+265931.7 258 55 102 Boo Jul-03 06 m 150430.63+221124.4 246 56 109 Boo Jul-04 06 m 152727.83+172353.2 234 56 115 Ser Jul-05 06 m 154821.08+123852.2 224 54 121 Ser Jul-06 06 m 160749.67+075702.3 214 52 127 Ser
For the history of prior amateur imaging acquisitions of a similar sized Apollo 12 booster in 2002-2003 at analogous distances of 500,000-700,000km using 12" and 14" of aperture, see Selenology Today Issue No. 13 at:
http://digilander.libero.it/glrgroup/selenologytoday13.pdf
- at pages 83-84 (digital pages 86-87) and Spaceweather.com http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/images/mysteryobject/gallery/gallery_j002e3.html (2002).
Between June 19 and lunar flyby on June 23, LCROSS will be too close to the Sun to image. "SOT" in the above table means Sun-Observer-Target angle.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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rookie
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 01/14/06
Posts: 873
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
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NASA has set up a site for live streaming from the LCROSS cameras. LCROSS lunar swingby video stream coverage will begin approximately 5:20 a.m. PDT on Tuesday, June 23, 2009. LCROSS Lunar Swingby Video Stream
-------------------- SV
Scope: Celestron CPC8
Binoculars: Garrett GT80~45, Fujinon 16x70, Regals 10x42, Ultima 9x63, Nikon AE 8x40
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Also on the NASA TV Schedule -
June 23, Tuesday 5 - 6:30 a.m.[EDT] - LRO Spacecraft Enters Lunar Orbit - Live Event - GSFC (Public, Media and HD Channel) Source: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
So, first you can start watching the LRO _orbital insertion_ at 2am PDT through 3:30am PDT following by the LCROSS _lunar flyby_ at 5:20am PDT.
Early in the morning - but a once-in-a-lifetime broadcast.
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS cruise orbit imaging ops - cruise orbits one to three - quick analysis
Click on http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders-cruise-orbits - or copy & paste it into your browser's address bar if that doesn't work.
This page has been updated to include a quick analysis of cruise orbit imaging of the LCROSS Centaur booster for cruise orbits one, two and three.
The best local circumstances for imaging the LCROSS Centaur will be from the southern hemisphere during cruise orbit one between July 22 and July 28 (Figure 4) and during cruise orbit three between September 16 to September 26 (Figure 11). Cruise orbit two provides sub-optimal imaging opportunities for both hemispheres. Northern hemisphere observers have less than optimal imaging opportunities during all three cruise orbits but are well positioned to view the impact. (Figure 12).
Clear Skies - Kurt
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Mare Nectaris
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/09/08
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LCROSS/Centaur Lunar Svingby Video Streaming about to begin on the 23rd of June 2009, at 1:10 pm UTC (5:10 am PDT, 8:10 am EDT). First video data expected at 1:20 pm UTC
Read more on this NASA page.
NASA TV is also on the air on the subject.
Be well all!
Edit (at 0:28 pm UTC): LRO LOI burn is at the final stage and... LRO has effectively just now reached the Lunar orbit
Discussions continue also at the Unmanned Spaceflight -forum.
- Expect some pictures to start to flow during the following weeks, first pictures are expected on July the 2nd. For pics to come, watch LROC -site (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera).
Edited by Mare Nectaris (06/23/09 06:41 AM)
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canopus56
sage
   
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For those who want to watch the replay for LRO on NASA TV:
June 23, Tuesday 8 - 9:10 p.m. [6pm MDT] - Replay of Coverage of the LRO Spacecraft Entering the Lunar Orbit - HQ (Public and Media Channels) 11 p.m. [9pm MDT] - Replay of Coverage of the LRO Spacecraft Entering the Lunar Orbit - HQ (Public and Media Channels)
Times are EDT.
LRO LOI archive video broadcasts #1 http://www.youtube.com/profile?v=zY1vN_DgD0o&user=NASAtelevision #2 http://www.youtube.com/profile?v=iYwJuyxrqa8&user=NASAtelevision
LCROSS summary swingby online archive video mentioned by Mare Nectaris is up as of this posting at:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/lunarswingby/index.html
YouTube Video archive - LCROSS swingby http://www.youtube.com/profile?v=fe8gMRfLRVU&user=NASAtelevision
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
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Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Thanks!
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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In response to In response to #3179488 "9th October 2009 LCROSS smack-down" by Philco
Quote:
Due to the delayed launch date of LRO-LCROSS ( 18th June 2009), the LCROSS lunar smack-down will take place in October. LCROSS and its Centaur-stage separately will collide with the moon at approximately 7:30 a.m. EDT on 9th October 2009. The exact target crater will be identified 30 days before impact…
http://www.airspacemag.com/space-exploration/Lunar-Smackdown.html
I guess this will be visible from at least one dark place on Earth (its Daytime in Europe, nighttime for far east)
Impact visibility analysis - for 10-9 11:30UT
NASA Press Release 09-68AR listing 10-9 11:30UT (7:30am EDT) http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2009/09-68AR.html
Brian Day's (LCROSS Team announcement) on impact times http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/58c86f61e6f054cf
Mosher's Wiki on impact circumstances http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/LCROSS+Impact
My local circumstances analysis for an intermountain west CONUS op Graphic http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/photos/20091009MoonPosFig1.JPG Narrative - local circumstances at W110 N41 http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/d677fe99fdccfe3e http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/15258654087ad766
Crater finders for south pole http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders
Other south polar finder images - Selenology Today Issue No. 13 Lena, R., Koksis, A., Pau, K.C., Tarsoudis, G., Zannelli, C., Lammel, S. and Lazzarotti, P. Mapping Faustinni Crater. Selenology Today, 13:122. (6.8mb) url: http://digilander.libero.it/glrgroup/selenologytoday13.pdf (last tested 2/28/2009)
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS acquisition imaging of spacecraft 6-27 to 7-2
http://canopus56.wikispaces.com/LCROSS_Cruise_Orbit
The above page provides local circumstances information for attempting imaging of the LCROSS-Centaur spacecraft during a limiting observing window from June 27 through July 2 in the early morning hours. Initial LCROSS orbit one imaging opportunities are limited by a rising first quarter Moon. Only small 1 hour windows occur each night after the Moon sets and with the LCROSS spacecraft being between 30 and 20 degrees above the local horizon. Illuminated fractions during this window range from 20% to 40%. LCROSS will be at a distance similar to the Moon itself.
The magnitude of the object is unknown. It may not be visible. The purpose of LCROSS amateur imaging is to determine if the spacecraft can be tracked by amateur class observers in a manner similar to minor planet body J002E3 - an Apollo 12 booster that was imaged by amateurs in 2002.
The local circumstance information is based in the planned LCROSS orbit from a Horizons generated ephemeris for W110 N41 - Salt Lake City, Utah. The apparent position of LCROSS is topocentric sensitive - as is the Moon at a similar distance. Nonetheless, the charts may provide useful guidance of other Intermountain and Pacific CONUS zone observers.
An alt-az overview chart is presented first, followed by nightly equatorial 5 degrees charts, and ending with the source ephemeris table.
This local circumstances page supplements the general cruise orbit discussion at: http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders-cruise-orbits
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
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Tonight, the LCROSS satellite will pass between Cor Caroli (alf CvN) and M94 (for my o.p. at W110 N41) at around 7UT 2009. Because there are no USPCMD two-line elements,topocentric plots can be generated using the NASA JPL Horizons emphermis generator.
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi
It is uncertain whether the satellite will be too faint to image. Use 15 mags for image exposure planning. See chart at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/CruiseFinder/20090629_0700_EQDetail.jpg
in http://canopus56.wikispaces.com/LCROSS_Cruise_Orbit
Clear skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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In another newsgroup, successful imaging of the LCROSS booster is reported:
http://www.backyardastronomer.com/lcross/LCROSS-20090629-anim2.gif
Image taken 29 Jun 2009 05:25UT by Paul Mortfield, Sierra Remote Observatories, Fresno, California using an RC16"f/8.9 and CCD at 60sec binned 2x2. Informal magnitude estimate 16v.
Source messages for image:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/5eb5620c22384879 http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/04d80ecc8bd82e0f
- Clear Skies, Kurt
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canopus56
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LCROSS Near Izar 8:15UT 7-2-2009
Tonight, the LCROSS satellite will pass about 2 degs, PA225 from Izar (eps Boo) and 1 deg, PA250 from 36 Boo (for my o.p. at W110 N41) at around 8:15UT, July 2, 2009. Because there are no USPCMD two-line elements,topocentric plots can be generated using the NASA JPL Horizons emphermis generator. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi
Two successful imagers have captured the satellite at its current distance as a 16mag object using 16 inches of aperture and both CCD and DSLR cameras at 30 to 60 secs of exposure.
See chart at: http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/CruiseFinder/20090702_0815_EQDetail.jpg
in http://canopus56.wikispaces.com/LCROSS_Cruise_Orbit for detailed local circumstances for W110 N42.
For pacific coast and intermountain CONUS observers, given the rising Moon time and increasing lunar skywashout, this probably represents one of the last opportunities to image LCROSS during orbit 1.
Clear skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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LCROSS: South pole imaging opportunity 7-8 to 7-14
Beginning July 8 and continuing through July 14, the Moon will enter a negative libration node cycle. The south polar region will become increasing exposed beginning on July 8 at about 12UT with a -1.3 degs of libration in latitude, a 99% illuminated fraction (from the lunar west) and a low altitude for northern hemsphere observers and ending on July 13 at about 12UT with about -6.5 libration, a 69% illuminated fraction (from the lunar west), and a higher local horizon altitude for northern hemisphere observers. At the predicted time of LCROSS impact (October 9 11:30 UT (5:30 MDT)), the Moon will be at 71% illuminated fraction and libration in latitude of -3.3 degs. Southern hemisphere observers will have reversed favorable local altitudes between July 8 to 14.
Prior imaging focused on easterly lunar illuminations. See pages:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/index-to-images http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/atlas-of-polar-images-above-lat-80
Jim Mosher has collected available west lunar illuminations images, e.g. -
http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/file/view/LCROSS_2009Oct9_1130UT.JPG/75571577
in -
http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/LCROSS+Impact
Group members here may wish to consider returning to imaging the south pole from the current westerly illumination and libration-in-latitude cycle. For northern hemisphere observers, obtaining good images may not be practical because of the Moon's low summer seasonal altitude. Nonetheless, topographic study with this new illumination will help in rapidly locating the LCROSS impact in October. This is the first of two available imaging cycles available to view and image the south polar region at analogous librations-in-latitude, illuminated fraction and illumination direction between now and October 9.
Clear Skies, Kurt
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luismartinez
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With LCROS/LRO well on its way to the moon, I am planning to observe the impact scheduled around October 9 1130 UT (last I checked). With my 8" scope limitations I am not optimistic but no pain no gain.
-------------------- Luis Martinez, Casa Grande, AZ
CPC800 w/ Mitty Wedge
Hyperstar
Watec 902H2
PC164EX
Orion StarShooter II
ADVC 55 Canopus video converter
KIWI OSD time inserter
ScopeBuggy
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canopus56
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Here's hoping. Also -
Moonship Photographed by Backyard Astronomers 07.09.2009 http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/09jul_lcross1.htm?list214508 - Kurt
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canopus56
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Copied for storage from LRO Thread in LCROSS Thread
Quote:
Re: LRO LROC images [Re: Ziggy943] 3210443 - 07/10/09 04:56 PM
Thanks Kurt. I'd still like to schedule an observing event at SPOC for this. If not for the public then at least for SLAS members. There's nothing like observing the real event.
Do we have definite timing yet? Siegfried
Ziggy,
You are referring to LCROSS. The official Nasa time is still Oct. 9 11:30UT +- 1/2 hour. NASA LCROSS really doesn't know the exact time and that target date is not expected to change until September 9. This is because NASA will not pick a final target selection until LRO - the subject of this thread - using its advanced mini-RF scanner (ground penetrating radar) to search hidden ice layers around the south pole. I understand that the LCROSS team is hoping for a good return hit with the mini-RF scan and then they can direct the LCROSS impact to that location. They will announce the final impact target and time on or about Sept. 9 - 30 days before impact.
The plus end of that 1/2 hour tolerance range for the impact probably puts nautical twilight too close to be expected to have a good view from 110W longitude (SLC, UT).
- Kurt
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canopus56
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Imaging ops for LCROSS impact region 7-13 10UT
Reposted from the LCROSS observation newsgroup
------------------
From: XB70man Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Local: Sun, Jul 12 2009 12:04 pm Subject: Imaging Opportunities at Impact lighting conditions Over the next few months, there are some good opportunities to image the south pole of the Moon at similar lighting and libration conditions as on Impact Day. I urge everyone with high-resolution planetary imaging capability to attempt a detailed image that can be posted on the NASA website to guide would-be imagers/videographers to the impact location. Many of the images posted on GoogleGroups had positive lighting (Moon Waxing-to-Full) which would make locationg the impact location with certainty difficult.
Table is for the West Coast (San Jose, CA) - but close enough for the continental USA. Adjust times accordingly ---
Date Time (PDT) % Illum. Latitude Libration (°)
July 13 0:04:00am PDT -70.80 -4.89 (Tomorrow Morning!) Aug 11 00:04:00am PDT -75.02 -5.95 Aug 11 05:04:00am PDT -73.65 -6.41 Aug 12 00:04:00am PDT -65.46 -6.06 Sep 10 00:04:00am PDT -69.01 -5.37 Oct 9 04:30:00am PDT -70.81 -3.59 IMPACT!
As you can see, tomorrow morning and September 10th are the closest matches for lighting conditions.
A GUIDE CD-ROM screenshot of the south pole of the Moon for tomorrow morning is at: /group/lcross_observation/web/Guide%20LCROSS%2020090713%200004PST.jpg
Best of luck!
Rick Baldridge LCROSS Google-Groups Moderator
--------------------
[P.S. by Kurt - corrected url to the guide screen shot is:
http://01227941410742638900-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/Guide%20LCROSS%2020090713%200004PST.jpg
or
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/Guide%20LCROSS%2020090713%200004PST.jpg
- Kurt]
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canopus56
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LCROSS Candidate target craters
Reposted from the LCROSS Observation group. Note there are a onging revised list of _possible_ candidates. Final selection depends on LRO Mini-RF investigation of the south pole over July and August. Final announcement of the selected candidate crater is not scheduled until Sept. 9. This is a _provisional_ list and will mostly likely change as the best target is refined.
The powerpoint referenced in the LCROSS Team informal post is at url:
http://01227941410742638900-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/LCROSS-SP-Targets-071009.ppt
A short version of the target list from the powerpoint is (Name-id), Lunar Lat, Lunar Long):
Faustini -87.2 89 Shoemaker -88.5 50 Cabeus P -85.6 308.9 Cabeus B -81.9 305.3 SP_CC area -83.9 338.9 Haworth -87.4 355 SP_F area -82.3 12 SP_G area -84.3 1
- Clear Skies, Kurt
==================
Original Post at LCROSS Observation Group
From: MoonThumper . . . [Brian Day, LCROSS Team Pub Ed Off] Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Local: Tues, Jul 14 2009 10:19 am Subject: Target Craters
I have uploaded a file from LCROSS PI Tony Colaprete that details the current list of target craters. The file is "LCROSS-SP-Targets-071009.ppt" and is in the file area for this group. A few notes about the data:
Target Designation = LCROSS specific target designation Pole = North or South Crater Name = USGS name Slope(P/F) = target area slopes meets criteria? Pass = P Fail = F Roughness (P/F) = Target area meets roughness criteria? Pass = P Fail = F Mean WEH (%) = Mean value, greater than/less than 1%, for the estimated Water Equivalent Hydrogen in target area Topo Mask, To Sun = Topographical mask along line of site between target area and sun Topo Mask, To Earth = Topographical mask along line of site between target area and Earth Centaur Target Location = Latitude and Longitude coordinates for Centaur impact point
====================
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canopus56
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Kelly Beatty (Sky & Telescope). July 14, 2009. LCROSS Crater Candidates Announced. http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/highlights/50623927.html (last accessed 7/14/2009).
- Kurt
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canopus56
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In order to better understand the illumination of the south pole at the time of the proposed LCROSS impact, I prepared synthetic image showing probable shadow illuminations for 10-9-2009 11:30UT as seen from an o.p. at W111 N41:
Labeled http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20091009_1130UTGoldstoneShadowSimSP_kaf.jpeg
Unlabeled http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20091009_1130UTGoldstoneShadowSimSP_unlabelled_kaf.jpeg
These simulated images were prepared by taking a screen shot from a February 2008 NASA-Goldstone radar-based shadow animation at:
http://www.nasa.gov/mov/214260main_Lunar_Illumination_Movie_4_Web.mov
See http://lpod.wikispaces.com/February+28,+2008 for more information background on the Goldstone animated shadow movie.
The screen shot roughly corresponded to the sun azimuth at the south pole on the date and time of the LCROSS impact. The screen shot clip can be viewed at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20091009GoldstoneAnimatedShadow.JPG
Jim Mosher's LTVT software was used to calibrate this synthetic image to the lunar sphere. The Mosher's LTVT software was used to generate the synthetic image of lighting on 10-9-2009 11:30UT shown above, as seen from the Earth.
Users of LTVT can use the screen shot and the following LTVT calibration file to load the shadowed image into LTVT:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20091009GoldstoneShadowSim_kaf.txt
Load this calibrated image into LTVT and then set the date and time for Oct. 9, 2009 11:30UT.
This simulation supplements and confirms the compilation of real images of similar librations gathered by Jim Mosher at his LCROSS impact wiki page at:
http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/LCROSS+Impact
In particular, the simulated image is similar in appearance to Mario Weigand's image of 2008 Oct 20 03:30. Mario's image can be found on Jim's page listed above or by:
Direct url to Mario Weigand image http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/file/detail/LCROSS_2009Oct9_1130UT.JPG
Compare the lighting for Schomberger A, C and K and Malapert C and Malapert E in the Mario's real image and the simulation for 10-9-2009.
A similar process was used to prepare a load-calibration file for the Feb. 2008 Goldstone radar generated topography map reproduced in the Feb. 28, 2008 LPOD:
LPOD 2-28-2008 http://lpod.wikispaces.com/February+28,+2008 LPOD 2-28-2008 Image http://lpod.wikispaces.com/file/view/LPOD-Feb28-08b.jpg
A rough LTVT calibration file for the Goldstone topography map jpg image can be found at url:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20080228GoldstoneAnnoLPODCalibData.txt
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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Here are simulated images of the LCROSS targets as seen on 10-9-2009 11:30UT from an op at W111 N42:
LCROSS Targets plotted on Goldstone radar map (false lighting) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090714LCROSSCandidateMap.jpg
LCROSS Targets plotted on Goldstone radar-based illumination map (simulated lighting at impact) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090714LCROSSTargets_GoldstoneShadowSimSP_kaf.jpeg
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - Here is an object file of the LCROSS targets for plotting with Mosher's LTVT software:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/LCROSS_targets_7_14_2009.csv
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canopus56
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One last plot made using LTVT - here are the LCROSS July 14 targets plotted over the Goldstone radar (false light) map:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090714LCROSSTargets_GoldstoneRadar_kaf.jpeg
Clear Skies - Kurt
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ericjmense
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Posts: 34
Loc: Joplin, MO
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Have some question so I can gear up to view this wonderful event. (probably will be cloudy anyways)
1. Ok so I know it is the South Pole but is there a specific crater they are shooting for so I can get out the moon map and find the exact spot to look at?
2. What will be the best magnification range to view this event in with a 12 incher.
3. Moon filter or not?
Thanks for any info Eric
-------------------- Orion SkyQuest XX12 IntelliScope Truss Dobsonian
Orion Stratus 5mm, 8mm, 13mm, 21mm
Orion DeepView 35.0mm
OPT filters 1.25" UHC, #12 Yellow,#21 Orange,#80A Medium, ND96 Moon Filter
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canopus56
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LCROSS on NOVA PBS Tonight
I'm not sure of the source of the following post, but it checks out as announcing that LCROSS is the subject of NOVA Science Now tonight - July 28.
Related link with program preview: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0405/01.html
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - To Eric, I haven't forgotten your message. I'm behind on my correspondence and am still getting around to it. - K
====================================== Source message
NG LCROSS Team, Our LCROSS mission will be featured on PBS's "NOVA ScienceNOW" this Tuesday night (9pm on KCET Ch#28 in LA, right after "regular NOVA"). There will be some good video footage of our spacecraft being built here at Northrop & launched from Florida, and the host of NOVA, Neil deGrasse Tyson, makes things fun & informative. Here's the link to PBS's website with the LCROSS trailer, bonus videos, and "Ask The Expert" (in this case NASA's LCROSS Project Manager Dan Andrews...take it easy on him, ok ;-) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0405/01.html
<snip balance>
Go LCROSS!
====================
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canopus56
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South Pole LCROSS target zone imaging 2009-08-09 11_23UT
A unseasonably cold night dropped nighttime-low temperatures from 26deg C to 15C and stabilized the air. The following two images are of the south pole region encompassing the current 7-2009 LCROSS potential target list. This is intended to be the first in a planned series (weather permitting) through August 11 (73.8% illuminated fraction) and August 12 (64.2% illuminated fraction). The intent of this series is to gather images of analogous lighting and libration to that that will be seen on the Oct. 9 11:30UT LCROSS impact as a finding aid to general public and amateur viewers.
Image info: Date-UTime, OP and target are encoded in the file names. Local circumstances: Lunar Age: 18.4 days Illuminated fraction: 89.2% Altitude +45.25d Meade DSIProI Meade ETX125 2x barlow extender estimated at approx. f/30, unguided Seeing: Poor. 2-3 out of 5 secs stable
Images can be found in directory:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/
Direct urls are:
A. - South Pole Region - Unlabeled - emphasizing "Malapert shadow hole" http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF0_SP.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/mart6v
B. - Same as A - LTVT aligned http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF1_SP_LTVTUnlabel.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/lwf74e
C. - Same as A - LTVT aligned with LCROSS target craters labeled http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF3_SP_LTVTLabel.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/lbv6ae
D. - Same as A - Fits version http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW1
11d52mN40d46mKAF0_SP.fit
E. - Experimental utlra-overexposure - brings out hidden Shoemaker in "Malapert shadow hole" http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF5_Shoemaker_InShadow.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/ncjgcb
F. - Same as E - LTVT aligned http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF6_Shoemaker_InShadowLTVT.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/lrhf2b
G. - Same as E - LTVT aligned with LCROSS target craters labeled http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF7_Shoemaker_InShadowLTVT_Label.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/lc7a74
H. - Same as E - Fits version http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF5_Shoemaker_InShadow.fits
Items E through H are experimental ultra-overexposure designed to see how faint my camera setup can penetrate into the "Malapert shadow hole." The ultra-overexposure brings out Shoemaker hidden in the Malapert shadow.
I do not own Photoshop. It would appreciated if someone would experiment with the images in Photoshop to cut, paste and blend the ultra-contast view of Shoemaker in the interior of the "Malapert shadow hole" into the normal contrast image, item "A" above.
I plan to try this again, but using two parallel aligned polarizes to reduce glare from the Moon's surface reflection.
Another possible processing option might be to apply the Photomatix High Dynamic Range software featured in the June issue of Sky & Telescope inorder to generate an image that combines a normally exposed bright surface with an over-exposed image of shadowed areas.
In this lunar age 18.4 day image, the usual finder crater suspects are visible: Moretus, Simpelius crater asterism (which looks like a snowangle that you made as a child), Malapert E on Leibnitz Beta, Schomberger C and Malapert K. Faustini is slightly over Leibnitz Beta.
Although I have not attempted autoguiding, potential lunar bright spots that hold during bad seeing moments include Casatus C (left-side middle of Item A), and further away - Rutherfurd in Calvius. At first, Simpelius J and the central peak of Moretus appeared like good guide target candidates, but in poor seeing they smeared and became invisible.
On the morning of 20090807, I also looked at the near full Moon in order to consider how to direct general public inquiries to find the lunar south pole. At times, the parallactic angle of the Moon can fool beginners (and intermediates) as to the location of the south pole. I found the following low-power rules of thumb useful:
1) (For beginners), on the Moon the east west directions are reversed. The eastern Moon corresponds to your geographic western horizon. The western Moon corresponds to your eastern geographic horizon.
2) Mentally draw a line between Tycho through Rutherfurd. (Rutherfurd is young bright ray crater in the southeast corner of Clavius.) At the southern limb, the line intersects with Cabeus. See diagram: http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20090807SouthPole%20SiteLines.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/ldrj49
Mentally drawing a line between the central peaks of Tycho, along the eastern edge of Clavius and the central peak of Moretus, extends to Malapert and the south pole on the southern limb.
3) Mentally draw a line between bright crater Kundt, through the central peak of Tycho. It intersects the southern limb at Cabeus. Malapert is one or two Tycho crater diameters to the lunar east along the southern limb. http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20090807SouthPoleSiteLines.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/krz4ae
Clear Skies - Kurt
References:
NASA LCROSS Team, 7-14-2009, Short List of LCROSS Candidate Impact Craters http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/main/candidate_craters_story.html
Rick Baldridge, LCROSS Google Groups Moderator, Call for images, 7-12-2009 "I urge everyone with high-resolution planetary imaging capability to attempt a detailed image that can be posted on the NASA website to guide would-be imagers/videographers to the impact location." http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/30a27eb02b531a48
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canopus56
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Stefan Lammel graciously provided a rough Photoshop merge of my two south pole images using Photoshop.
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF8A_ShadowMerge.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/m8cehk
This is a proof-of-concept demonstration of one possible technique for capturing the faint LCROSS impact ejecta curtain as it rises from a crater in shadow and then producing an asethetic image. In the merged imaged, one can make out a small part of Shoemaker's rim and clearly see what I believe is Shackleton in the background of the shadow area.
Clear skies, Kurt
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canopus56
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Visually observed the south pole on 200-08-10 08:23UT with the Meade 125 ETX. A 2"-4" small bright line could be seen in darkness behind and slightly above Leibnitz Beta and a few arcsecs to the lunar east of the Malapert E crater centerline. I took this to be part of the Faustini rim seen on the group's March images here. No images made do to work-day time restrictions. - Clear Skies, Kurt
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canopus56
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I had a few moments to image last night and made a technically poor image (20090811 at 0937UT) using a Meade ETX 125 at about f/30 and an older DSI-ProI. The image captures lunar south pole shadowing analogous to what will appear on the morning of the LCROSS impact. For illumination and sun-angle comparision, I also took a prior image on August 9 at 11:37UT:
Lunar libration data for images and impact Source: LTVT ephemeris data, topocentric W111.8 N41.8 Date-TimeUT libr_lat lib_long colong illumfrac sunalt_MalpertE 20090811 0937 -6.1 -6.5 157.1 74.4 -0.5 20091009 1130 -3.5 2.8 158.2 70.9 1.6 20090809 1123 -5.2 -6.0 133.7 89.4 2.9
Date-TimeUT Lunar age (days) 20090811 0937 20.3 20091009 1130 20.6 20090809 1123 18.4
Item I. - South pole image 20090811 at 9:37UT http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090811_0937UT/20090811_0937UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF0_SP.jpg http://tinyurl.com/p3bdlk
This image is a single frame - no stacking or deconvolution - and has been unsharp masked and gamma processed. While technically below the prevailing acceptable quality for amateur lunar imaging standards, it does record illumination and shadow conditions analogous to the LCROSS impact set for Oct. 9, 2009.
Item J. - Same as item I but LTVT labeled with craters http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090811_0937UT/20090811_0937UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF2_SP_Label.jpg http://tinyurl.com/pnmgta
Item K. - Same as item I but hyperexposed to see if more detail could be extracted from the "Malapert dark hole". http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090811_0937UT/20090811_0937UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF1_SP_HyperExpos.jpg http://tinyurl.com/qty3q8
(The Item K image is a single frame - no stacking or deconvolution. A stacked set of images also failed to bring out any more detail than that seen in the single frame image.)
In the hyperexposed version, a snipet of the Faustini crater rim can be seen to the right of and below Malapert E. (Compare Item K to the best of the March 2009 south pole images.) Visually, this Faustini crater rim snipet was quite easily seen with 125mm of aperture.
All images are in directory http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090811_0937UT/
Unlike my August 9 image, hyperexposing the Malapert "dark hole" did not bring out any additional detail. Compare Item K above with my Aug. 9 hyperexposed image:
E. - Aug. 9 experimental hyperexposure - brings out hidden detail in the "Malapert dark hole". http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF5_Shoemaker_InShadow.jpg http://tinyurl.com/ncjgcb
I attributed the difference in the effectiveness of pulling detail out of a shadowed region to sun angle. On Aug. 9 the Sun angle at Malapert E was 2.9 degs. I believe at this angle, the Sun was also hitting the hidden backside of Leibnitz B and created a backscatter of light that faintly illuminated the interior of the Malapert "dark hole". On Aug. 11, the sun angle at Malapert E was -0.5 degrees, and there is no backscatter off the backside of Leibnitz Beta into the Malapert "dark hole".
I was unable to image on the morning of the 12th, but observed visually at 2009-08-12 14:00UT during daylight. By then, a characteristic "dark canyon" for this colongitude (172 degs) leading from Moretus to Malapert had formed. The "hole" consists of Short and series of depressions lunar east of Newton B, M, G, A and ending with Newton B. This extended dark canyon trails lunar south down to the Malapert dark hole. It can be seen in Westfall's Atlas in plates 174-S and 179-S.
The imaging lesson learned comparing the Aug. 9 and 12 images are that faint features can be extracted by hyperexposure notwithstanding lunar glare emitted from features on the bright side of the terminator.
This result relates to two hypothesized impact ejecta curtain scenarios for the October 9 LCROSS impact.
The first ejecta cloud scenario is the conservative LCROSS team planning assumption - a 10km wide by 5km high lampshade figure with a 2.5 km line rising above the rim of a permanently shadowed crater rim and being visible from Earth. The second ejecta cloud scenario is a more liberal hypothetical assumption of a 20km by 20km curtain capable of reflecting light that can be seen by a 254mm (10 inch) aperture amateur class telescope from Earth.
For scale, the diameter of Malapert E is 17km.
Using my Aug. 11 image, I added scaled ejecta cloud curtains for these two hypotheticals. Using 17km diameter Malapert E as the image scalar, the Aug. 11 image works out to an image scale of about 600 meters per pixel. Here's the Aug. 11 image with scaled figures for the two ejecta cloud hypotheticals:
Item L. - Sames as Item I with scaled ejecta cloud hypotheticals - brightness of the cloud is abitrary http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090811_0937UT/20090811_0937UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF0_SP_Illustrated.jpg http://tinyurl.com/prdaku
The luminance of the two scaled ejecta curtains is arbitary and is not intended to represent the actual, but presently unknown, brightness of the LCROSS impact ejecta curtain. The implication of these hypothetical cloud scales for the hyper-exposure imaging method is that the bright-border effect seen in the Aug. 9 image indicates that a 10km by 2.5km high ejecta curtain would be overwhelmed by the hyper-exposure border glare. See the following images showing the hyperexposure border glare where the southern lunar limb outline meets the dark sky -
E. - Aug. 9 Experimental hyperexposure - brings out hidden Shoemaker in "Malapert shadow hole" http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF5_Shoemaker_InShadow.jpg http://tinyurl.com/ncjgcb
Item K. - Aug. 11 Experimental hyperexposure. Same as item I but hyperexposed to see if more detail could be extracted http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090811_0937UT/20090811_0937UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF1_SP_HyperExpos.jpg http://tinyurl.com/qty3q8
Conversely, a 20x high ejecta curtain would rise high enough above the hyperexposure border glare to be captured by imaging - assuming the ejecta curtain reflects enough sunlight to be detected from Earth.
The above discussion is not intended to say anything about the likelihood of visually observing the ejecta curtain. As noted above with respect to the August 11 image, the Faustini crater rim snipet was quite easily seen visually with 125mm of aperture. In the hyperexposure Aug. 11 image, the Faustini rim snipet is barely visible.
Clear Skies - Kurt
References:
Malapert E diameter http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/jsp/FeatureNameDetail.jsp?feature=71175
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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To correct my prior post, the faint background features seen in the image are not illuminated by backlighting; they are illuminated by various low angle (0.3 degrees) direct sunlight. The feature in the background most probably is a highland between Shoemaker and Shackleton and not Shackleton, as previously stated.
Further analysis of the pixel values between faint indicates a differential magnitude between the foreground bright spot next to Malapert E and the faint background features of about 1.6 mags.
A background info panel is available at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/20080809_1123UT_OPW111d52mN40d46mKAF9B_DiscussionPanel.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/mlmseo
I have done a little experimentation with co-imaging reference stars and the Moon's disk to establish the differential magnitudes of faintly illuminated features and background sky brightness washed out from lunar glare. In the next lunation, I'll be trying to refine that test to determine glare magnitudes of the background sky above Malapert E. The results of those tests should help in finding some imaging magnitude boundaries for the faintest eject cloud that can be imaged with amateur class scopes and cameras.
Clear Skies, Kurt
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canopus56
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Using photometry to find skybrightness above the LCROSS impact site and Brightness of Impact Cloud
In the spring of 2009, the LCROSS Team issued a single frequency estimate at 550nm of the impact ejecta curtain brightness of approximately 3.0 mpsas during the first between 10 and 60 seconds after impact. Heldman (2009). A version of Heldman (2009) is reproduced as a low-resolution frame on the LCROSS Team Observation Campaign webpage (2009). url: http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/impact.htm . For amateur CCD or video imaging purposes, this understates the likely mpsas, since CCD cameras respond to the broad integrated wavelengths between approximately 380nm and 1000nm. CCDs do not respond at a single wavelength.
The LCROSS-EDUS impact will generate a dust ejecta curtain about 10 km x 5 km high between 40 to 60 seconds after impact according to the NASA-LCROSS Team conservative best estimate impact model (CBEIM). Bart(2008) at slides 19-20; Wooden (2008) at slide 2. This current conservative LCROSS CBEIM translates to a 3 arcsec x 2.5 arcsec ejecta dust cloud at a mean lunar distance of 384,400km. A larger hypothetical 20 x 20 km ejecta curtain converted to a circular shape of equal 400 sq km area has a diameter of about 12 km. As seen from Earth at a mean lunar distance of 384,400 km, the 20 x 20 km square billboard would be 11 x 11 square arcsecs, or equivalent to a circle with a diameter of 12 arcsecs.
At those ejecta curtain sizes and an irradiance at a single wavelength of 550nm of 3.0 mpsas, the corresponding integrated magnitudes of the curtain would be 1 integrated magnitudes for the 10km x 5km scenario and -1.9 integrated magnitudes for a 20km x 20km, 12 arcsec diameter scenario. This apparent brightness (3.0 mpsas) provides a favorable contrast index against typical Earthshine (dark limb) irradiance between 12 to 17 mpsas for the dark limb (mean value 15.44 mpsas) but not against Moonshine (bright limb) at 4 to 6 mpsas.
The LCROSS ejecta curtain will present a uniquely difficult extended object for amateurs to image. The impact is hoped to occur when a permanently shadowed region (PSR) is on or near the bright limb terminator with the crater surrounding the PSR being partially lit at a very low sun angle. The dust ejecta curtain will rise into the sunlight and reflect light back to Earth-based telescopes against the background darkness of the night sky immediately adjacent to the dark limb.
At the moment of projected impact, 2009-10-09 11:30UT, the Moon will have the following geocentric empheris characteristics:
Phase angle 65.2984 Perscent illumination 71% illumination Terminator colongitude 158 Lunar age 20.7 days
The average sky brightness under moonlight scattered illlumination (expressed in mpsas) at various distances from the Moon was modelled with precision by Krisciunas and Schaefer (1991) based on earlier measurements by Krisciunas (1990) and an earlier rough model by Walker (1987). See Krisciunas (1990) at Figure 8, reproducing the rough model of Walker (1987).
The effect of moonlight is additive. Under the rough Walker model, the full Moon adds about -1.9 mpsas to whatever your base sky brightness is. At a lunar age of 20 days, about -1 mpsas is added. If you are observing from a light-polluted 3 integrated magnitude urban sky (equivalent to about 16.9 mpsas), the light from a 20 day old Moon adds on average about -1 mpsas to your sky brightness. That is it would reduce a 16.9 mpsas sky to a 15.9 mpsas sky - equivalent to about 2.1 integrated magnitude sky.
Conversely, if you travel to your favorite 21 mpsas - 6.1 integrated magnitude rural dark sky site, the same Moon reduces sky brightness to 20 mpsas or 5.5 integrated magnitudes.
The effect of moonlight is dependent on the lunar phase and the degrees of distance between the Moon and the observed target. Krisciunas and Schaefer (1991) (at Table 2) give the following rough delta mpsas (as measured through a Johnson V standard filter) for the lunar phase angle and distance between the Moon and the observed target. These results are for their improved model over the Walker (1987) rough model:
Phase angle Angular distance Moon-target 05 30 60 30 -4.5 -2.9 -2.2 60 -3.7 -2.1 -1.5 90 -2.7 -1.4 -0.9 120 -1.6 -0.6 -0.3
The value in Krisciunas and Schaefer's table closest to LCROSS impact circumstances is a phase angle of 60 and an angular distance of 5 degrees. They report a delta mpsas of -3.7 for those circumstances.
(Lunar phase angle is the number of degrees between the Sun, the Moon and the observer. It varies between 0 and 180 degrees. It is the S-T-O angle reported by the NASA/JPL Horizon's Ephemeris system. Phase angles less than 90 degrees imply backscattering of light; phase angles greater than 90 degrees imply forward scattered light.)
For an urban 16.9 mpsas (3.0 integrated magnitude) sky, 60 degree phase angle moon light would increase sky brightness near the Moon by -3.7 mpsas to about 13.2 mpsas - or -0.5 integrated magnitudes. At the rural dark sky site with an excellent 21 mpsas - a 6.1 integrated limiting magnitude - moonlight was reduce the limiting magnitude to 17.3 mpsas or a 3.3 integrated limiting magnitude.
Equating (roughly and perhaps inapproriately) the LCROSS team's single 550nm wavelength mpas of 3.0 to the LCROSS ejecta curtain to the full Johnson V-band mpsas, indicates that the LCROSS ejecta curtaion might have a positive contrast index even in an urban light polluted environment:
Sky brightness 5 degs from Moon Curtain MPSAS Contrast Index Urban 13.2 3.0 4.1 Rural 17.3 3.0 5.7
Even though the LCROSS ejecta curtain will be seen rising against a bright background sky, at an average curtain brightness of 3.0 mpsas, it still may be visible or subject to imaging.
An obvious implication of the above is that travelling a dark sky site may improve the contrast between the ejecta curtain. Dark skies - even though they are washed out by moonlight - still relatively increase an amateur's likelihood of visually detecting the impact curtain and of imaging the curtain.
An extended object fainter than 3.0 mpsas - such as Saturn - has been widely imaged as it was occulted by the Moon. Saturn has a computed mpsas of 6.7 based on an diameter of 14 to 20 arcsecs and an integrated magnitude ranging between 0.4 to 1.2 mags. But unlike Saturn, the LCROSS ejecta curtain will be a low-density dispered dust cloud.
In an abbreviated literature search, no articles were found concerning the additive effect of moonlight between 0 degrees and 5 degrees from the lunar limb.
Lunar amateurs and lunar occultation amatuers are familiar with this effect of moonlight. Only the brightest stars can be seen next to the bright limb of the full Moon. Magnitude 4 to 7 stars disappear within an arcminute of the bright lunar limb.
Amateurs in the LCROSS Google observation group ( url: http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation ) have been attempting to gain some understanding of the brightness of the night sky above and within a quarter-degree of the lunar limb by observing grazes and imaging stars during lunar occulations of clusters. Example images are:
Chris Kitting. Moon occulting Pleaides 2009-08-14 9;46UT http://01227941410742638900-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/CKitting_20090814_0946Pleiades.jpg http://tinyurl.com/oopegs Image details: http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/80c0f58084faec69
In Kitting's image, magnitude 7 to 8 stars in Merope's Tail are co-exposed close to an overexposed lunar terminator.
Derek C. Breit April 25, 2007 6.6 mag star graze on dark limb http://www.poyntsource.com/tmp/April_25th_2007_Graze.mpg (24 mb mpg)
These experiments have had limited success, principally because the few number of such occultation events and uncooperative weather limits the ability to gather useful data using those techniques.
An alternative technique would be CCD photometry analysis. In this technique, the south pole of the Moon is imaged at high focal ratios (f/30 plus) at various exposure times from underexposure to high over-exposure. The camera and scope are then retargeted without changing focal length or exposure on an open cluster at a similar altitude as the Moon. The V magnitudes of open clusters are well-known and plots of clusters limited by a specific magnitude are easily made using the Webda's online database. url: http://www.univie.ac.at/webda/
The open cluster provides reference stars to determine simple transform coefficients for the CCD camera at a given exposure setting through standard B and V or C and V filters. Modern imaging processing packages like AIP4WIN include photometry utilities by which the differential magnitude of stars can be found and correlated to CCD well ADUs. See single star photometry in Exercise C.5 in the AIP4WIN handbook and the extractive photometry utility on the AIP4WIN menu (Measure | Photometry| Extractive Photometry). The open cluster image also provides an image scale that can be applied to your image of the south pole.
This poster unsuccessfully attempted a preliminary test during the August 14, 2009 lunar occultation of Pleaides. An image of the south pole was taken, followed by an image of the Alcyone triple. Unfortunately, weather conditions and an unanticipated glare problem unquie to the Mak imaging scope prevented getting a useable result. The Meade ETX 125 Mak has a curved corrector plate. When slewing from the south pole to Alcyone, the Mak's curved surface diverted off-axis lunar glare into the tube and washed out the image. No useable photometry information could be gleaned from the image, but a demonstration information on image scale could be found.
A panel summarizing this technique demonstration test can be seen at: http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/2009_8_14_0246UT_KafTestPanel.jpg http://tinyurl.com/n4l8sn
The next best - and last - analogous lunar south pole illumination to the LCROSS impact will occur on September 9 11:30UT:
Lunar libration data for images and impact
Source: LTVT ephemeris data, topocentric W111.8 N41.8 Date-TimeUT libr_lat lib_long colong illumfrac 20090907 1130 -6.2 -5.5 128 92 20090908 1130 -6.2 -5.5 140.2 85.5 20090909 1130 -6.1 -5.4 152.3 77.3 20091009 1130 -3.5 2.8 158.2 70.9 Impact day 20090910 1130 -5.4 -5.1 164.4 67.7 20090911 1130 -4.4 -4.3 176.5 57.1 20090912 1130 -3.2 -3.3 188.7 45.8
Date-TimeUT Lunar age (days) 20090907 1130 18.1 20090908 1130 19.1 20090909 1130 20.1 20091009 1130 20.6 Impact day 20090910 1130 21.1 20090911 1130 22.1 20090912 1130 23.1
On the early morning of Sept. 8, there are no appropriate open clusters near the Moon. NGC752 (Caldwell 28) is higher in the sky. The Double Cluster is also at a higher altitude, but visible.
On the early morning of Sept. 9, the Moon and M45 will both be visible, but the Pleaides will be a higher altitude.
On the morning of Sept. 10, the Moon will be near the Pleaides and at the same altitude. On the evening of the 11th, a number of open clusters might be used for baseline photometry - M45, M36, M37, M38 or NGC1647.
As we approach full Moon on September 4, the Moon will be 68% illuminated on August 29 (from the opposite direction). The night of August 29 provides an opportunity to set up and test equipment under test analogous illumination before September 9.
On the evening of August 29, the Moon will be low in the southern sky just below the apex of the Sag "teapot". Open clusters M21, M23 and M25 are also visible, but at higher altitudes.
Amateur photometry to determine sky brightness within one quarter degree "above" the lunar south pole on September 8 through 11 (particularly on September 9) will help determine if the LCROSS impact ejecta cloud will have sufficient contrast against the moonlight night sky to be seen and imaged. Imaging through filter combinations (V-C, V-I, B-V) will give the most accurate results. To confirm whether the background sky brightness will not overwhelm the ejecta curtain brightness, better photometry data might be collected by amateurs within zero to 5 arcminutes "above" the south lunar pole.
Clear Skies - Kurt
Disclaimer: This is an amateur note. Criticisms and corrections to the above are welcomed.
Fisher, Kurt A. (amateur). 2008. Conversion Calculator for NELM(V) to MPSAS (B) systems. (Web calculator). url: http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/plan/tlmnelm/html/NELM2BCalc.html (last accessed 26 Aug. 2009)
Heldman, J. (LCROSS Team). Email Feb. 11, 2009, Slide 4 (slide4.gif).
Krisciunas, K. 1990. Further measurements of extinction and sky brightness on the island of Hawaii. PASP 102:1052-1063. Bib. Code 1990PASP..102.1052K url: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990PASP..102.1052K (last accessed 26 Aug. 2009)
Krisciunas, K. and Schaefer, B.E. 1991. A model of the brightness of moonlight. PASP 103:1033-1039, Bib. Code. 1991PASP..103.1033K url: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991PASP..103.1033K (last accessed 26 Aug. 2009)
LCROSS Team. 2009. Average and Edge Brightness of Ejecta Curtain (Figure). LCROSS Observation Campaign website. url: http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/impact.htm and http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation.htm Image: observation05.jpg (last accessed 26 Aug. 2009)
Walker, A. 1987. ________________. NOMO Newsletter. 10:16.
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Mare Nectaris
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 1430
Loc: Toijala, Finland
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Kurt, one could also consider using digital camera automatics on the occasion. The camera would then have to be adjusted so that it measures the overall brightness correctly, ie. it should be pointed enough to the darker side of the sky so that it does not measure brightness merely based on that of the Lunar disc.
You can find details of the technique in this CN thread and the single exposures collected together as a sequence.
As is evident from the sequence, utilizing auto exposure, both the Lunar surface and the pretty faint star can be resolved quite well. But, as mentioned earlier, it is very important to point the camera correctly so that the Lunar disc does not dominate the exposure.
I used the preprogrammed exposure program "beach" as it is actually very close to the lightning conditions on the occasion (lots of Sun and sand). No light pollution was present at the time of the shooting, and the mounting of the camera was afocal.
Maybe this could be part of the exposure experiments?
Be well!
-------------------- Share - and you shall have it all
Timo Keski-Petäjä
CtheMoon
Observation shelter KuuMaja (MoonHut)
TAL 250K*Celestron C8-N*SkyWatcher Skymax 150 Pro*TAL1(Mizar)*EQ6 Pro SynScan*Celestron Advanced GT (CG-5 GOTO)*Baader Hyperion Clickstop Zoom 8-24*17 mm UWA-70*TeleVue BIG 2x Barlow*Celestron 2x Barlow Ultima SV Series
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
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Thanks Timo. I'll pass it around. That is a pretty deep magnitude reach for right on the limb! I"ll pass the idea around. If only we knew what the Sony DSC-W50 was doing in its "Beach" exposure setting? - Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
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On the question of the faintest star visible before occultation on the bright limb, it appears that Dr. Schaefer did an popular article on this in S&T in 1993, summarizing his 1991 article. It was also turned into one of the S&T BASIC programs available via the internet.
Schaefer, B. E. A star's visibility just before occultation. Sky Telesc., Vol. 85, No. 1, p. 89 - 91 (S&T Homepage) Bib. Code 1993S&T....85...89S
url: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1993S%26T....85...89S
S&T DOS Program from 1993 http://media.skyandtelescope.com/binary/occvis.bas in http://www.skyandtelescope.com/resources/software/3304911.html
How to run a DOS QBasic program on a Windows XP Computer http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/hobbyqanda/3399826.html
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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The 1993 S&T DOS program by Bradley Schaefer can be used to predict the faintest star visible just above the lunar limb, I adapted the Schaefer lunar occulation program with parameters for the LCROSS Oct. 9 impact as viewed from Salt Lake City, Utah using a 10 inch Newtonian scope.
Schaefer's occultation limiting magnitude program predicted that the faintest visible star just before occultation was 5.3 mags for my scope. This corresponds to a sky brightness of 19.7 MPSAS.
Since the LCROSS team predicts the maximum brightness of the LCROSS impact cloud at 3.0 MPSAS, there is a good contrast index (6.6) between the moonlight glare sky-brightness just above the limb and the ejecta cloud.
This modeling suggests that the LCROSS ejecta cloud should be visible in 10 inches of aperture notwithstanding the lunar glare problem.
A web document explains who to set the parameters in the Schaefer lunar occultation limiting magnitude program to emulate the LCROSS impact cloud and observing conditions for your observing point.
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/SchaeferOccultationCalculatorValuesLCROSS.html http://tinyurl.com/mrasdn
I have also made a modified the S&T DOS program to set the parameters for Salt Lake City observing circumstances. This can be used as a template for your local circumstances.
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/occvis_slcut.bas http://tinyurl.com/l38vj9
This note reports the result is a model prediction and and not an actual measurement.
The next date that the Moon will be illuminated at 71% and in a manner similar to the LCROSS impact is on Sept. 9 at 11UT (Sept. 9 at 5am MDT, 77%)) and Sept. 10 11UT (Sept. 10, 5am, 68%):
Source: LTVT ephemeris data, topocentric W111.8 N41.8 Date-TimeUT libr_lat lib_long colong illumfrac 20090907 1130 -6.2 -5.5 128 92 20090908 1130 -6.2 -5.5 140.2 85.5 20090909 1130 -6.1 -5.4 152.3 77.3 20091009 1130 -3.5 2.8 158.2 70.9 Impact day 20090910 1130 -5.4 -5.1 164.4 67.7 20090911 1130 -4.4 -4.3 176.5 57.1 20090912 1130 -3.2 -3.3 188.7 45.8
Date-TimeUT Lunar age (days) 20090907 1130 18.1 20090908 1130 19.1 20090909 1130 20.1 20091009 1130 20.6 Impact day 20090910 1130 21.1 20090911 1130 22.1 20090912 1130 23.1
For Sept. 9 and 10 at 11UT times (Sept. 9 at 5am MDT, Sept. 10 at 5am MDT) in Salt Lake City, the Moon will be an altitude much closer the circumstances of impact - around 70 degrees. On Sept. 9 at 11:21UT there is graze of the north pole by ZC387 (SAO75476, HD16302 in Aries between Hamal and Botein), but at magnitude 6.9, it is too faint to be observed visually according to the Schaefer predicted model as it passes along the bright limb side. But as the star passes the pole and crosses a degree or two into the dark limb, it should become visible. I may run a test to see if SAO75476 can be observed or imaged. I will also be looking to see if the grazing star's visibiliy is consistent with Schaefer's model - it should not be visible until it just crosses to the dark limb.
Occult 4 data for this graze is:
Grazing Occultations near SaltLakeCity UT E. Longitude -111 53 24.0, Latitude 40 45 24.0, Alt. 1337m; Telescope dia 15cm; dMag 0.0
day Time P Star Sp Mag Mag % Elon Sun Moon Cusp angle Distance Azimuth Path formula y m d h m s No D v r V ill Alt Alt o km 09 Sep 9 11 21 38 Gr 387cG5 6.9 6.4S 77- 123 69 ** GRAZE: CA 2.7N; Dist. 19km in az. 339deg. [Lat =40.94+0.29(E.Long+111.89)]
On August 28, the Moon was illuminated at 71% but reversed as to what will occur on impact on Oct. 9. Salt Lake was overcast and I was unable to take any images from which to make differential photometry measurements.
The take away point is that based on this modelling of the lunar glare brightness above the south lunar pole on Oct. 9, even if LCROSS ejecta cloud has a brightness of 6 mpsas, the ejecta cloud should still have sufficient contrast against the lunar glare at the south pole should not prevent observing the cloud.
This is an amateur note. Corrections and criticisms to the above are welcomed.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
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I have made a substantial revision to my modification of the Schaefer 1993 Qbasic program for model sky brightness in mpsas at the lunar limb during the LCROSS impact.
The revised Qbasic program is available at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/occvis_slcut.bas http://tinyurl.com/l38vj9
An instruction sheet and parameter entry tips are at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/SchaeferOccultationCalculatorValuesLCROSS.html http://tinyurl.com/mrasdn
The correction fixes computation errors and the model now responds to light pollution inputs.
Modeling analysis using the modified Qbasic program indicates that just on the bright side of lunar polar termination and just above the polar limb, sky brightness will be about 14.7 MPSAS. This is a favorable contrast with the LCROSS team's single frequency brightness of the ejecta curtain at 3.0 mpsas. Based on this modeling, lunar glare should not prevent observing or imaging the LCROSS impact. But this is a model, not real data. Confirmation of the level of lunar glare above the south lunar pole by imaging-based differential photometry on Sept. 9 is recommended.
Modeling indicates that light pollution in an urban environment may be a factor reducing one's ability to see the ejecta curtain. It is recommended that observer travel to rural or dark sky sites to observe the impact.
Corrections and criticisms on the modified model are welcomed.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
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LCROSS - New Mexico State Apache Point south polar guide images
Repost from LCROSS observation group. The referenced images are done with 60cm (24 inches) of apeture. New Mexico State University at Apache Point is one of the official LCROSS Team ground observatory collaborators. The image titled "Image date and time" has the local circumstances imaging data. Images titled "zoomed view" have arcsec size scaling labels. Note the source author's (apparently a grad student at NMSU) statement that "You are welcome to distribute these images freely." The images have good resolution but appear to contain a Y-axis distortion.
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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MoonThumper [aka Brian Day, LCROSS Team Public Outreach officer] Sep 1, 9:25 am Subject: Improved Maps of Lunar South Pole
The following message is from Chas Miller at NMSU:
Ryan Hamilton has create an improved composite image of the lunar south limb from Rob Suggs' IR video taken on August 11 (UT). Ryan has also put together a web site to distribute the images (rather than send big files over email). The images can be found at:
http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media.shtml
There is actually one master composite image from which the others are derived. The main image is:
http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media/NMSU_LCROSS_SP_110809.png
Other images are just cropped versions of that image, focussing closer on the Cabeus A, B region.
We have also annotated the images with crater labeling and other relevant image info:
Image date and time (taken from video spanning 4 minutes centered on 07:25 UT): http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media/NMSU_LCROSS_wide_dates.png
Full view composite with crater labeling: http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media/NMSU_LCROSS_wide_scales.png
Partially zoomed in view with crater labeling: http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media/NMSU_LCROSS_medium.png
Further zoomed in on Cabeus A, B region with crater labeling: http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media/NMSU_LCROSS_narrow.png
We are focussing on the Cabeus A, B region as those were mentioned as possible impact sites. We can label other target craters as needed. Cabeus A and B are not well defined at this angle. Ryan, Rob, and I spend some time with various pole projection maps and believe we have the right areas labeled. For reference, I have found values of 17 km diameter for Newton E, 48 km for Cabeus A, and 61 km for Cabeus B.
You are welcome to distribute these images freely. In fact, you can just distribute the link to the web page if you like and other astronomers can download images directly from there. Be aware that the processing we did results in some visible artifacts (especially at close zoom) and so these are not science quality images. However, we think they are very useful for crater hopping.
Let me know if you have any questions about the images.
Chas Miller
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canopus56
sage
   
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There is a new official LCROSS page outlining visibilty of the ejecta curtain and suggestions for imaging.
LCROSS Citizen Science About Page
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
They quote without citation an apparent brightness figure of 4 to 6 mpsas and an ejecta curtain size of about 1/3 Jupiter.
Mars (3.9 mpsas), Jupiter (5.6 mpsas) and Saturn (6.9 mpsas) have all been imaged at or near the point of occultation by the bright limb of the Moon.
Doing some quick internet search, here are some amateur images of a crescent Moon occulting Jupiter:
In 1990
http://www.icstars.com/HTML/JupiterMoon/MoonJupiter.html
In 2004
http://www.astro.umd.edu/openhouse/gallery/planets/occultations/09nov04.html
From what is currently known, if the curtain rises against a background of the night sky and perhaps against the background of the dark shadowed portion of a crater on the sunlit side of the terminator, it should be visible. If it rises, in part, against a background of a sunlit terminator side feature, that part of the ejecta cloud will not be visible.
As previously noted, recently released finder maps from New Mexico State University include arcsec scales for the south polar region:
http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media.shtml
See the "medium image" at url:
http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media/NMSU_LCROSS_medium.png
The "About" page talks about the top of the plume being about 10km in diameter. The image scale on the NMSU finder is 1.78km/per arcsec. So, the top of the plume would be about 17.8 arcsecs across. Newton E, which is marked on the NMSU image, has a catalogue listed diameter of 17km. Note the 20 arcsec scale line on the NMSU image and the catalogue size of Newton E do not match. I'll leave you to make your own conclusions about the approximate visual size of a 10km curtain.
The NMSU chart is a fine image and is sufficient to get a rough idea about how big 10km and 30km will appear in the eyepiece or camera on the morning of the October 9 impact.
Malapert E, also appears on the NMSU finder, but is not marked, and also has a catalogue diameter of 17km.
Here is an image of the south lunar pole that I took in August at f/36 or an efl of about 4600mm using a "small chip" Meade DSI under poor sky and seeing conditions:
South Pole Region - Unlabeled
Image Link
http://tinyurl.com/mart6v
This image can be found in directory:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090809_1123UT/
The 17km Caebus E and Malapert E are both visible in this image.
The above image was taken using this gear:
Meade ETX-125 AT 5" (f/15) 1900mm
Meade #64 T-Adapter
ETX-125EC with a T-Adapter in format 2 has an efl of 2310mm or f/18 (according to the Meade ETX 125 manual)
Plus 2x barlow for 4620mm efl or f/36 (4620mm / 125mm)
Here's an image I took using a 10" Newt at prime focus with an efl of 1200mm using the same Meade DSI and under extremely poor sky conditions:
http://01227941410742638900-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/KFISHER_200812070442.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/nb4bwa
Little 17km Malapert E is visible to the right of bottom center of the image. Illumination is the opposite side from the August 2009 image. Both images are stacked and highly processed, not raw.
The LCROSS Citizen Science "About" page reasons that lower efls will result in a better image because "Higher power is not advisable, which would reduce the brightness per pixel of the plume."
Sept 9 - 10 is the next and last imaging opportunity to practice imaging the south lunar pole with 71% illumination nearly the same during the impact.
Sept. 9 at 11UT (Sept. 9 at 5am MDT, 77%)) and Sept. 10 11UT (Sept. 10, 5am, 68%):
Source: LTVT ephemeris data, topocentric W111.8 N41.8
Date-TimeUT libr_lat lib_long colong illumfrac
20090907 1130 -6.2 -5.5 128 92
20090908 1130 -6.2 -5.5 140.2 85.5
20090909 1130 -6.1 -5.4 152.3 77.3
20091009 1130 -3.5 2.8 158.2 70.9 Impact day
20090910 1130 -5.4 -5.1 164.4 67.7
20090911 1130 -4.4 -4.3 176.5 57.1
20090912 1130 -3.2 -3.3 188.7 45.8
Date-TimeUT Lunar age (days)
20090907 1130 18.1
20090908 1130 19.1
20090909 1130 20.1
20091009 1130 20.6 Impact day
20090910 1130 21.1
20090911 1130 22.1
20090912 1130 23.1
For Sept. 9 and 10 at 11UT times (Sept. 9 at 5am MDT, Sept. 10 at 5am MDT) in Salt Lake City, the Moon will be an altitude much closer the circumstances of impact - around 70 degrees.
There will be one more 71% illumination opportunity later in September, but from the opposite side from the Oct. 9 impact.
Clear Skies - Kurt
Edited by desertstars (09/14/09 03:39 PM)
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canopus56
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Excerpted from LCROSS observation group
Excerpt reposted here by canopus56@yahoo.com
Message by Rick Baldridge, moderator, 9/4/2009 9:35pm MDT
re: Setting camera exposure levels to capture impact
<snip> > Personally, I am going to use my StellaCam III and get > the exposure set so I can barely see the dark limb > of the moon (a bit away from the terminator) so I know > it is a little above the background noise, and > that's about it. If the illuminated plume does > get above the limb (or is in the foreground > against a shadowed region) one would think it > would have to be at least a bit brighter > than the dark limb if it's going to be observable. <snip> > Clear Skies, > Rick B.
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canopus56
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LCROSS: Press conf to announce final target selection 9-11 11am MDT
Sept. 8, 2009
Grey Hautaluoma/Ashley Edwards Headquarters, Washington 202-358-0668/1756 <snip>
Jonas Dino Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif. <snip>
MEDIA ADVISORY: M09-171
NASA SELECTS TARGET CRATER FOR LUNAR IMPACT OF LCROSS SPACECRAFT
MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. -- NASA has identified the spot where it will search for water on the moon. Reporters are invited to attend the announcement of the target location where the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite, or LCROSS, and its spent Centaur rocket will hit in October. The briefing will take place at 10 a.m. PDT, Friday, Sept. 11, in the main auditorium, Building N201, of NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. The event will be broadcast live on NASA Television and the agency's Web site.
The selected crater is an optimal target for evaluating if water ice exists at the lunar south pole. Briefing participants are Daniel Andrews, LCROSS project manager, Anthony Colaprete, LCROSS principal investigator, and Jennifer Heldmann, lead for the LCROSS observation campaign.
Andrews will provide an update about the health of the spacecraft and mission activities. Colaprete will announce the target crater and explain the criteria and selection process. Heldmann will discuss the LCROSS observation campaign in which an international cadre of professional and amateur astronomers will view the impacts at 4:30 a.m. on Oct. 9.
To reach Ames, take U.S. Highway 101 to the Moffett Field/NASA Parkway exit and drive east on Moffett Field Boulevard toward the main gate.
News media will be escorted from the visitor badge office parking lot to the main auditorium at 9:45 a.m. Journalists seeking telephone access should contact Jonas Dino at <snip>
For NASA TV streaming video, downlink and scheduling information, visit:
http://www.nasa.gov/ntv
For more information about the LCROSS mission, visit:
http://www.nasa.gov/lcross
-end
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canopus56
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Efls for imaging the LCROSS impact
The following is amateur work product. Criticism and corrections are appreciated.
This opinions put forward here on recommended effective focal lengths to image the LCROSS impact differ slightly from the official Citizen Science LCROSS recommendations on the "About" page. See url:
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
This note is based on a discussion of Roger Sinnott's nomogram for choosing an effective focal length at url:
http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Linked.gif
Imagers can be best prepared to capture the impact by brainstorming and discussion of techniques before this unique one-shot impact event.
I. Optimal resolution theory
Modern imaging theory suggests that the optimal resolution images can be obtained by magnifying the full-width half-maximum (FWHM) size of the atmospheric seeing disk so that it subtends two pixel elements. Optimal resolution is achieved by matching the current seeing conditions to pixel element dimensions and to the target type.
This guiding principle suggests focal lengths suitable for imaging the LCROSS impact depending on camera type, e.g. DSLR, CCD, high-end lunar planetary imagers (LPIs) or low-end LPIs.
For discussion purposes, the LCROSS Team recommended 254mm (10 inch) aperture is assumed.
For long-exposure amateur photography without the benefit with adaptive optics, the effective seeing disk size is equal to the current seeing conditions. If the seeing disk as disturbed by the atmosphere is 2 arcseconds that is the minimum resolution that can be achieved. This is because the exposure time for faint extended objects like nebulae are above 15 seconds. The disturbed atmosphere constraint controls, even where the theoretical resolving limit for a telescope (e.g. the Dawes limit) signficantly is less than disturbed seeing limit, i.e. 2 arcseconds.
For long-exposure astrophotography, the imager seeks to take this 1, 2 or 3 arcsec disk and magnify it sufficiently to cover 2 pixel elements on their camera.
For lunar and planetary imaging, the highest resolution exposure strategy is different because the objects are very bright. Exposure times can be corresponing low, for example around 0.036 second exposures (28 frames per second (fps) using a Meade DSI or 0.02 secs (60 fps) using an ImageSource mono camera). With the Meade DSI, I take very short exposures (0.01 seconds), but spaced at longer intervals.
These low exposure times bring into play the possibility of the applying the poor man's adaptive optics - "lucky imaging". In lucky imaging, hundreds or thousands of exposures are gathered over an extended period in disturbed air. The hope is that luck will smile on the imager and that a few of those images will occur during subsec periods when the air is absolutely still.
Lucky imaging brings into play the theoretical resolving power of the amateur's telescope.
Recall that under optimal resolution theory, the full-width half-maximum (FWHM) size of the seeing disk covers two pixels. When lucky imaging is involved, that seeing disk is the theoretical resolving power of your telescope.
The theorectical resolving power of a telescope can be related to the full-wdith half-maximum (FWHM) size of the telescope's Airy disk. The Airy disk is the diameter of the diffraction disk to the first diffraction dark ring and contains 84% of a point source's light energy. Dawes limit measures a radius, not a disk diameter. The Dawes limit is the radius of the diffraction disk to the first diffraction dark ring and contains 42% of a point source's light energy. The FWHM represents diameter of the Airy disk that contains 50% of the Airy disk's energy.
For a 254mm (10") aperture, the Airy disk is 0.47", the Dawes limit is 0.46" and the FWHM is 0.40". to achieve optimal resolution, it is this FWHM diameter that the lunar planetary imager seeks to magnify across two physical pixel elements.
A brief bit of math - the basic equation for finding the magnified size of an object on a flat plate at prime focus is:
A_meters = lambda_radians * Fl_meter [Eq. 1]
where:
A_meters = the size of the object on the flat plate at prime focus in meters lambda_radians = the angular size of the object in radians Fl_meter = the focal length of the telescope
Two assumptions are implicit in the the lucky imaging strategy for lunar and planetary imaging:
1) That are there brief subsecond moments when the image of the object is crisp.
2) That you can image sufficiently long enough that there is a good probability you will capture a sufficient number of these crisp images to be deconvolved into an even sharper imaging with image processing software.
II. Pixel element sizes of modern LPIs, CCDs and DSLRs
Modern LPI, CCD and DSLR cameras come in a wide variety of total chip size. The total chip size governs the total true field of few captured on the image and is not related to the size of the pixel elements on the chip. It is the size of the pixel elements that governs resolution.
Modern LPI, CCD and DSLR chips can be divided roughly into classes by individual pixel element sizes in microns (um=microns), e.g. -
----------------------------------------------
Table 1: Physical pixel element sizes in microns
Pixel Class | Type | Camera | Chip | Pixel size um | Pixel diag. um
Small sq | High LPI | Imagesource DMK 31AU03 | ICX204AL | 4.6x4.6 | 4.6*
Small sq | Mid rng LPI | ImageSource DMK 21AU04 | ICX098BL | 5.6x5.6 | 5.6*
Small sq | Low end LPI | NexStar Celestron LPI | Unknwn | 5.6x5.6 | 5.6*
Small sq | Low end LPI | Meade LPI imager | Unknwn | 6x6?? | 6*
Small sq | High end LPI | Orion Starshoot | Aptina MT9V032 CMOS | 6x6 | 6*
Small sq | Mid rng CCD | Orion Starshoot III | ICX285AL | 6.4x6.4 | 6.4*
Small sq | DSLR | Canon ESO350D | Unkwn | 6.4x6.4um | 6.4*
Small sq | Mid CCD | Meade DSI III | ICX285AL | 6.4x6.4 | 6.4*
Mid range | High end CCD | Lumenera 2-1 | ICX205 | 7.6x6.2 | 9.8
Mid range | High end CCD | SBIG ST7 | Kodak KAF-400E | 9x9 | 9*
Mid range | Old LPI | Quickcam LPI | Unkwn | 10x10 | 10*
Mid range | Low end CCD | Meade DSI Pro I | Unknwn | 9.6x7.5 | 12.2
Large |High end CCD | Apogee AP8 | Kodak KAF-1000 | 14x14 | 14*
Large | High end CCD | SBIG ST4 | Unkwn | 13.75x16 | 21
Large |High end CCD | Starlight | Sony ICX083AL | 23.2x22 | 22*
* For square pixel elements, one side traditionally is taken as the controlling dimension. For rectangular pixel elements, the diagnol's length is used.
----------------------------------------------
III. Finding your effective focal length to match the optimal resolution for your camera with Sinnott's nomogram
As a general rule-of-thumb for DSO imaging, the smaller the pixel element and the larger the seeing disk, a smaller focal length is applied to reach optimal resolution. Only larger pixel elements can match long focal lengths to a large seeing disk. This is why high end CCDs can have big pixel element sizes - they can stand high levels of magnification. This principle also explains what "binning" is about. Binning takes two small pixel elements and combines them into one pixel - effectively creating a larger pixel element that better matches higher magnifications.
But in general, most amateurs are using cameras with smaller 12 micron and below pixel element sizes. The optimal resolution matching principle explains, in part, why SCT owners who want to use their 2000 to 3000mm focal length scopes to image DSOs first buy a focal reducer. Focal lengths under 2000mm best match long-exposure 1 and 2 arcsec seeing with the pixel element sizes of common CCDs and DSLRs.
For lunar planetary imaging the rule-of-thumb is the opposite: a longer focal length is used with smaller pixel element sizes.
Applying the theory of optimal resolution, for a Meade DSI Pro I with a 12.2 micron pixel (or 24.4 microns for two pixels), I would want to magnify the 0.40 arcsec FWHM disk (same as the 0.5 arcsec theoretical lucky image seeing disk) to about 22.4 microns. But based on experience, I'm going to use a 1 arcsec seeing disk with a FWHM of 0.6". Using the image scaling equation, I compute that I need about a focal length of 4700mm to achieve the optimal sampling resolution.
Rather than deleve into imaging scaling math, a simple to apply nomogram that relates seeing disk size, the type of imaging (DSO or lunar planetary), chip size and effective focal length was published in S&T in 1997.
Dennis di Cicco. _____. Of Pixel Size and Focal Reducers. Sky & Telescope. url: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/astrophotography/3304356.html?showAll=y&c=y (last
Roger Sinnott's nomogram printed in the diCicco article is particularly helpful to understand these principles:
http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Linked.gif
Sinnott's nomogram is divided on the left side into imaging objectives - DSOs and Planetary-Lunar. Note the seeing disks for Planetary-Lunar are in the theoretical range of telescope performance above 10 inches of aperture, expressed in terms of the Airy disk size. The DSO left-hand scale is grouped around atmospheric constrained seeing at disk sizes of 1 or 2 arcsecs.
On the right-hand side of Sinnott's nomogram is the pixel element size of a chip ranging from 30 microns down to an LPI's tiny 5 micron elements. See Table 1, above.
For my Meade DSI Pro I example, drawing a line between 0.6 arcsecs on the left and a 12.2 micron chip element on the right, suggests a focal length of somewhere above 4000mm.
For my 1200 mm focal length 10" aperture DOB, that translates into applying projection magnification of about 3.75x and 4x and an f-ratio of 4700mm/254mm or about f/18.
IV. Applying optimal resolution and effective focal length to the LCROSS impact ejecta curtain.
LCROSS is a hybird event that falls between a DSO imaging strategy and a lunar planetary lucky imaging strategy. On the one-hand, the impact is basically a lunar planetary imaging - invoking application of the lucky imaging strategy. On the other, the short-time frame and continuous change nature of the event - an ejecta that changes in size and brightness over a 60 second time frame - invalidates underlying assumption of the lunar lucky imaging strategy. Lunar lucky imaging assumes a stationary unchanging target over three or four minutes - sufficient to capture enough crisp images in still air that can be stacked and deconvolved using image processing software.
Note Sinnott's nomogram with respect to the remaining discussion in this section:
http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Linked.gif
A) The LCROSS ejecta curtain and the lucky imaging strategy
The conservative 95% probability simulation for the LCROSS ejecta curtain is an extended object about 10km by about 3km sticking up above a crater rim. This translates into an angular size of 5.6 arcsecs by 1.7 arcsecs.
For a 10 inch (254mm) recommended aperature with an experience based resolution of 0.7 arcsecs FWHM and a 1.0 arcsec seeing disk, mentally, one would divide this linear object into 5 or 6 one arcsec "point" objects. To achieve optimal resolution, these five or six point objects get magnified so they subtend 10 or 12 pixel elements on your CCD chip or LPI of choice.
If you are using a lunar planetary camera with 0.5 or 0.6 micron sized pixel elements, Sinnott's nomogram suggests using about a 2000mm efl. If you are using a CCD or DSLR camera with 12.2 micron sized pixel elements, Sinnott's nomogram suggests using about 4000mm of effective focal length.
B) The LCROSS ejecta curtain and the traditional DSO strategy
The conservative 95% probability simulation for the LCROSS ejecta curtain is an extended object about 10km by about 3km sticking up above a crater rim. This translates into an angular size of 5.6 arcsecs by 1.7 arcsecs.
For a 10 inch (254mm) recommended aperature with seeing at 2.0 arcsecs with a 1.5 FWHM disk, mentally, one could divide the LCROSS linear ejecta curtain into 4 or 5 two arcsec "point" objects. To achieve optimal resolution, these four or five point objects get magnified so they subtend 8 or 10 pixel elements on your CCD chip or LPI of choice.
If you are using a CCD or DSLR camera with 12.2 micron sized pixel elements, Sinnott's nomogram suggests using about 1500mm of effective focal length to acheive optimal resolution matching.
C) The LCROSS ejecta curtain and a hybird strategy
The hybird nature of the impact might justify a hybird strategy, e.g. - assume 1.5 arcsec seeing and 1.0 arcsec FWHM disk. For a 5 or 6 micron sized pixel elements of a planetary camera, Sinnott's nomogram suggests a very low 1000mm efl. For a larger 12.2 micron sized pixel elements of a DSO camera, Sinnott's nomogram suggests about 2000mm efl. This is the elf recommended on the LCROSS Citizen Science "About" page for DSLR cameras.
V) Lunar glare and imaging the LCROSS ejecta curtain
Large chip arrays in DSLRs and high-end CCD cameras may create a unique barrier. In a couple of prior notes, I mentioned articles by Bradley Schaefer on his modeling of lunar glare and its effect on the faintest magnitude star that can be seen during a lunar occultation.
Post 8-29-2009 re: Schaefer's lunar glare effect on lunar occultation articles http://tinyurl.com/lkfv4c
Post 8-30-2009 on S&T QBasic Program of Schaefer's lunar glare model http://tinyurl.com/mr2j2v
Post 8-31-2009 Modified Schaefer occultation program http://tinyurl.com/kw6t88
The take-away point form playing around with Schaefer's lunar glare model, the faintest star visible - and thus the brightness of the sky just above the Moon - are significantly sensitive to the fraction of the Moon that is visible in your eyepiece. The larger fraction of the lunar disk that you have in your eyepiece or on your CCD chip, all the dark areas on your chip will read relatively brighter.
Extrapolating this relationship to imaging the LCROSS impact, the lunar glare effect seems to weigh in favor of using higher magnifications and smaller chips that will capture a smaller fraction of the sunlit side of the Moon's terminator on CCDs chip. More glare will make the dark unlit portions of craters on the sunlit side of Moon (e.g. Caebus A and B) or the night sky above the dark limb of the lunar terminator relatively brighter and might reduce the contrast between the fainter ejecta curtain and its background.
VI. More on differential photometry of dark crater areas
Here's an image that I took this morning (9-8-2009) that is overexposed and at an elf of about 4000mm. Seeing was poor - the Moon was at a high altitude but the jet stream was right over my observing point and ran across the Moon's disk. The purpose of the image was to look at the differential photometry in the dark crater holes as compared to the night sky. In terms of ADUs from a raw image, the dark craters floor read about 0.4 mags brighter than the dark sky:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090908_8UT_SP_verD_label_kaf.jpg http://tinyurl.com/n27edc
VII. Conclusion
Using an internet search, find the size of your camera's pixel elements. Use Sinnott's nomogram to estimate a recommended effective focal lenght for your telescope and camera. Then devise a projection magnification setup to magnify the 5 or 6 "points" that will match the LCROSS impact linear ejecta curtain object to the scale of your pixel camera estimates.
Make a judgment call on which strategy you feel will be best - traditional DSO, lunar lucky imaging, or a hybrid between the two. See Sinnott's nomogram to choose a focal length that matches your strategy.
Consider the effect of lunar glare on the TFOV covered by your image. Larger chips and lower magnifications will bring more of the Moon's brightly illuminated disk into the frame and increase the brightness of the background sky.
Utlimately, there is no "right" answer and experienced imagers have to make a snap or gut judgment call on the best setup for there local seeing conditions.
As always, this is guideline. Test and tweak for your particular gear. On the mornings of Sept. 9 and 10, the Moon will have an illuminated fraction similar to that which will be seen during the impact. It's a good time to test your setup. Considering seeing is a variable, you may want to test a long and short efl setup suitable for your camera's pixel element size. That way you can seemlessly pop in the right set up on impact day - the morning of Oct. 9.
Clear Skies - Kurt
References:
Berry, R & Burnell, J. 2005. 2d. Handbook of Astronomical Processing. (HAIP). Willman-Bell. at page 8
Kitchin, C. 2003. 2ed. Telescopes and Techniques. Springer. ISBN 1-85233-725-7 at page 33
Schaefer, B. E. A star's visibility just before occultation. Sky Telesc., Vol. 85, No. 1, p. 89 - 91 (S&T Homepage) Bib. Code 1993S&T....85...89S
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canopus56
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South Pole Observing Report 9-9-2009 11_30UT
Here's a south polar west image in a topo study panel from my 11:54UT 2009-09-09 imaging session this morning. This may be useful as a rough finder for when the LCROSS impacxt occurs.
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090909_1154UT_111W_41N_SP_panel_kaf.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/nlf58f
Shoemaker was absolutely stunning this morning. It was one of those rare observing sessions that makes this hobby worth all the effort.
The light hit just a sliver of the whole rim of Shoemaker while it was sitting in the Malapert dark hole. The sliver rim had a beaded appearance to it and generated a perfect tilted ellipse shape. At the "back" or south side of Shoemaker, there is a small 6km crater on its rim, shown in high resolution radar topographic maps. That 6km crater was also crisply outlined when viewed with a 4mm TMB planetary e.p. with a 1550mm focal length and 125mm of aperature. Two small 6km and 4km craters just "below" or north of Malapert E were crisply seen - as was shadow terminator detail within 17km Malapert E itself. Part of the Faustini rim was also visible. Howarth in combination with the shadow of the Malapert alpha rampart makes a good dark hole, although there is bright sunlit terrain between Howarth and the south limb.
Seeing held at Antatoldi III or better bewteen 11:30UT to 12:30UT (5:30 MDT-6:30 MDT) and into near nautical twilight. Just after 12:30UT, the morning atmospheric boil started.
I feel there is an adequate margin of safety against bad seeing on impact day for my o.p. at 111W.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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South pole observing report 9-10-2009 12_19UT
Here's the image in the form of an info panel from this morning's observing session:
South Pole misc topo study 2009-9-10 12:19UT http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090910_1219UT_111W_41N_SP_panel_kaf.jpg http://tinyurl.com/lzoggo
This morning, the east flank of Leibnitz beta was much brighter. Only the "back" or pole side rim of Shoemaker was illuminated as a silver. At this high negative libration in latitude, Caebus finally makes sense to me as being hidden from view behind M1.
67% illumination on 2009-9-10 12:19UT rotated to 2009-10-09 11:30UT for W111 N41 http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20091009_1130UT_projected_panel.jpg http://tinyurl.com/l96uf6
The main lesson learned from observing and imaging the south pole the last three mornings is that efficient orienting to features involves clearly identifying the main Earth-side massifs at the south pole. Once you locate the massifs, identifying craters is easy regardless of the current libration. The relevant south polar lunar massifs from lunar east to lunar west are:
Leibnitz Beta Malapert alpha a.k.a. M8 M1 M3
and in the far background at higher negative librations - M5.
This outstanding 2007-12-19 LPOD image by Tom Bash highlights these massifs.
http://www.lpod.org/?m=20071219
This massifs are all fragments of a rim arc left by the South Polar Atkin basin impact. See LPODs 10-21-2006 and 12-19-2007.
http://www.lpod.org/?m=20061021 and http://www.lpod.org/?m=20060920
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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New LCROSS Team page for amateurs
There is a new LCROSS site page to provide the general public with info. It was put up on 9-10 and may be a draft under construction. It recites the following:
"Ref: Moon = 3476 km (dia.) = approximately 0.5 deg viewable from earth = 30 arc min. = 1800 arc seconds (scale ~1.93 km/arcsec., or 5.2 arc sec. for a 10km event size). Or, using trig, at 385k Km away from earth the 10Km impact event will be approximately 0.001488 deg. or, 5.36 arc sec. So, these two estimate techniques give close results. 10km will be about ¼ percent of the moon's dia. (for reference, pretty small, but if you slice the moons diameter up into 100 strips, you can get the idea).
The brightness or magnitude of the event is of course dependant of what part you are talking about, but we estimate magnitude 6-9 for the best visible part and time."
http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation/amateur.htm
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canopus56
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On Sep 10, 11:33 am, "canopu...@yahoo.com" <canopu...@yahoo.com> wrote: <snip> > The main lesson learned from observing and imaging > the south pole the last three mornings is that > efficient orienting to features involves clearly > identifying the main Earth-side massifs at the > south pole. Once you locate the massifs, identifying > craters is easy regardless of the current libration. <snip>
Here's a great resolution amateur pic of the south pole from the LPOD coppermine gallery that really brings out the topography. The relationships between the major polar massifs and crater shadow parts are very clear in Carmelo's image:
Carmelo Zannelli 2005-10-23 http://www.lpod.org/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=3886&fullsize=1
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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LCROSS Impact Crater Finders
The LCROSS Team announced its final target selection for a small crater on the rim of Cabeus A.
I have prepared a finder page at the LCROSS Observation Google Group:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders
Other sites with finders for the LCROSS impact crater are:
Jim Mosher's Wiki LCROSS Impact Page http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/LCROSS+Impact
New Mexico State Univ. Apache Point LCROSS Site Finders http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/rthamilt/LCROSS/media.shtml
NASA LCROSS Team Observation Campaign page http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation.htm
and in the future:
NASA LCROSS Citizen Science Page http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/
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starshine4
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What telescope filters should I use to view the impact.
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revans
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Loc: Fitchburg, MA
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Well guys... I must say I'm dissappointed with the final choice of an LCROSS impact target... it seems to me that it is a fine target for orbital study... but from Earth it is not a good target.
Maybe this means that the mission planners would like to have all the good data taken from orbit so that no sun shines on the poor old Earth observers...
Rick
-------------------- Rick Evans
http://www.freewebs.com/revans_01420/
"The universe is there for us to see, but it cannot be understood without learning its language -- mathematics." Galileo Galilei
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kraterkid
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Rick, I must agree about Cabeus A as choice for a target. Not only is Cabeus A exposed to sunlight at various librations, something that should potentially rob the crater of water ice over time, it's placement during this event will be in a brightly lit background hampering earth based detection of the event. It was my impression, after reading the program summary initially released by the LCROSS team that earth based data collection was a major aspect of the project. Did that change?
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canopus56
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Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Dear Grey. Haven't forgotten you. I'll get an answer to you shortly. The short answer is none. - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS Plume visibility analysis and imaging exposure recommendations
The following is an amateur note. Comments and criticisms on the same are welcomed.
At url -
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090915LCROSSvisibilityanalysis_kaf.txt http://tinyurl.com/mqylqf
- I have posted another in a series of ongoing discussions between myself and an another active member of the LCROSS Observation Group regarding the expected visibilty of the impact plume. My response is overlength and goes into some technical matters that may not be of interest to general group readers. Therefore, I have posted by link to a separate text file.
My amateur analysis of the plume ends with my conclusions regarding whether the plume can be observed visually and imaged. The extended discussion also concludes with a description of what the plume will look like for amateurs using scopes of 5 inches or larger and with recommended strategies for imaging the plume. The support and reasoning for my conclusions are contained in the linked extended discussion file.
Those conclusions and recommendations may be of interest to general readers and I replicate that "conclusions" portion of the extended response below.
Clear skies - Kurt
-----------------------------
- Conclusions
On Sept. 11, Rick Baldridge noted that:
"NASA will provide professional and amateur observing groups more detail regarding plume size and visibility in the coming weeks. The plume will not extend above the lunar limb, and will not be situated against a dark background such as a shadowed region between craters. However, that does not mean the plume will not be visible. Video and photographic observations must now focus on bringing out the brightening caused by the eject plume in front of a lit lunar surface."
September 11, 2009 LCROSS Science Team Announced Target Crater Posted by rickbaldridge on September 11th, 2009. NASA LCROSS Citizen Science Page Blog http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/
Implications from the foregoing discussion [in the linked extended discussion file] for imaging the LCROSS impact are as follows.
If the ejecta plume follows its predicted apparent brightness _and_ if the mpsas of the shadowed portion of crater Cabeus A1 is at least one magnitude lower than 4 mpsas, the impact can be easily imaged and observed using 5 inches of aperture or more. Earth based amateur observers will see essentially a surface contrast effect. As the brightest part of the 10km plume expands within and above the bowl of 17km Cabeus A1 and reaches a brightness of about 4.0 mpsas, the plume will obscure the shadowed portion of Cabeus A1 from Earth observers. The plane of the rim and/or just above the rim will take on a surface brightness equal the surface brightness of the surrounding surface terrain. That surface typically will have an mpsas between 4.0 and 6.0.
Normally, Caebus A1 has a bowl shaped appearance caused by crater shadowing when viewed from Earth visually at 300x and/or when imaged, as illustrated in this high resolution amateur image taken in September by Stefan Lammel:
http://tinyurl.com/qjex6e
(I visually observed the same view a few hours after Stefan took his image using a Meade ETX 125 with a TMB 4mm planetary eyepiece at 300x. The level of detail that I was able to observe visually easily exceeded what Stefan was able to capture photographically. Stefan when posting his image he accompanied the comment that the Moon was at a low altitude and that it was not his best work.)
During the first 30 secs, the brightest part of the ejecta plume will create a contrast effect as the surface brightness of the brightest part of the ejecta plume removes the contrast between the crater shadow and surrounding terrain. For visual observers, the crater may see a blurry mesa effect. Caebus A1 will look like a terresterial mesa or will have a slight "raised muffin" appearance. Where the brightest part of the ejecta cloud crosses the sunlit portion of the lunar surface, it will not be visible due to lack of contrast between the cloud and the lunar surface.
For low resolution imagers like myself, the crater will simply "disappear" due to this contrast effect beginning near the 30 second mark for a duration of about 30 seconds and then mysteriously reappear on AVI frames. See my 9-10-2009 image for an example of low-resolution image:
http://tinyurl.com/qw32fy
Although no images have been gathered that match the libration and illuminated fraction of the impact, the reduction in libration in latitude to -6.0 to -3.0 between now and the impact on October 9 will only increase this contrast effect. The Cabeus A1 crater shadow will be relatively thinner (in arscsecs) on the day of impact as compared to that shown in Stefan's image.
Imaging of the LCROSS impact will be a fairly straight forward process for amateurs. High focal length imaging is preferred in order to minimize the percent of the sunlit lunar disk captured in a frame. High focal lengths dictate that large pixel DSLR cameras and CCD cameras are disfavored relative to small pixel sized fast moderate and high-end lunar imaging cameras. See Sinnott's Effective Focal Length to Pixel Size nomogram, url - http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Linked.gif
- and the more detailed discussion in another message in the LCROSS Observation newsgroup -
Post by K. Fisher 9-8-2009 LCROSS Observation Group Efls for imaging the LCROSS impact http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/764ceeede969207a http://tinyurl.com/owkdf7
Pre-impact image calibration is an easy three-step process. The goal of this process is to set the pixel value of the brightest edge of the rim of Cabeus A1 to 75% of your camera's well capacity in ADUs. This should assure that the full range of pixel values that can be captured on a line profile across the major axis of crater Cabeus A1 are recorded on images stored to your disk.
First, focus your imaging gear on the target crater without concern for the exposure setting.
Second, slew to 2.6 stellar magnitude theta Auriga. On the morning of the impact, the Moon will be between the horn stars of Taurus and just next to 1.7 mag bet Taurus (Alnath). 2.6 magnitude theta Auriga is one of the figure stars of Auriga and is about 11 degrees away.
Nearby alternative stars for exposure calibration around 2.5 stellar magnitudes include: zeta Per 2.8mags B0.5V, delta Orion 2.2 mags O9.5II, gamma Gem 1.9 mags AOIV, beta Auriga 1.9 mags A2IV.
Take some test images of theta Tau and adjust your exposure setting so theta Tau's brightness peaks at 50% of your well capacity.
Note that the preview histogram in some image capture software _does not accurately_ represent what is stored in captured images on a disk. Open the test images stored on the disk and run a profile measurement or histogram on your image of theta Aur using your image processing software so you are sure your exposure setting captures the right amount of well ADUs.
Keep this exposure setting and slew back onto the impact target Cabeus A1. Take some test frames and look at some of the raw images on your disk. Use the profile measuring line tool (e.g. one is available in AIP4WIN) and take a profile of the pixels that cross the major axis of Cabeus A1.
Now adjust your exposure setting so that high pixel value of Cabeus A1 rim is at 75% of your well capacity. The minimum pixel value shown for the Cabeus A1 crater line profile should also be within the range of a histogram made of the entire test image.
You can slightly adjust back from this exposure setting so the Moon is not overexposed _on images stored on your disk._ Again, _do not trust the preview image and histogram_ in your image capture software.
Post-image processing will favor software packages that offer region masking like Photoshop. This way individual regions of the bright lunar surface can be supressed in brightness, but pixels that encompass the area within the Caebus A1 crater rim can be selectively stacked and gamma stretched.
The impact will provide imagers interested in hobby science with an opportunity to study plume kinematics using photometry measurements from their images. The LCROSS ejecta plume will rise 5 kilometers (5000 meters) to its maximum brightness in about 30 seconds. The vertical plume speed is estimated at an average of 167 meters per second (5000/30). For the first 2 kilometers, the ejecta cloud will be masked from Earth view by Cabeus A1's crater rim. This trip above the crater rim will occur between about 18 seconds after impact through impact + 30 seconds. (30 seconds * 3000 meters / 5000 meters). For the final three kilometers, the plume will be sunlight and the total light from the cloud may have a changing photometric signature related to its vertical travel that will be recorded by amateur video imagers.
Such recordings might be examined to extract a plot of the total brightness of the Earth visible ejecta curtain against time. The process for making such a recording and reducing it is generally described as follows. An LPI camera of video that records AVI files including both an audio track and a video track will be needed. For the time signal audio track, the video can be time stamped using a digital metronome as the timed audio source. An inexpensive $30 Ibanez model emits a good sharp tone at a maximum of 180 beats per minute with a different second identifier signal and is available at many local music and guitar stores. url: http://www.ibanez.com/electronics/product.aspx?m=MU40 . Alternatively, imagers can use a more expensive video time stamping rig favored by lunar occulation observers - the KIWI OSDI video-GPS timestamper. url: http://www.pfdsystems.com/ . The NIST WWW shortwave time broadcast is another option for a timing audio signal, but since there is no need to coordinate observations between observers and clear reception of the NIST shortwave signal is usually problematic, the Ibanez metronome may be the better inexpensive no-hassle option.
Post imaging, the AVI file is reviewed using movie making software. The individual frames that contain identifable time beats and good images of Caebus A1 are separated. Then each time-stamp identified image is reviewed in image processing software. Most image processing software (such as AIP4WIN) contain a region measuring tool. These tools count the average value of pixels in an identified circular or rectangular area.
Use the region measuring tool on each time-stamped image and surround all of Cabeus A1. It will be important to use the same relative pixel coordinates from the center of Cabeus A1 in each individual frame. Note the time stamp and the average pixel value for the uniform measuring region on each frame. Then plot the pixel values against time.
Finally, compare your plot against the predicted increases in plume brightness that presumably will be provided by the LCROSS Team.
In conclusion, the LCROSS impact can be easily imaged, assuming it reaches the brightness of 4.0 mpsas stated in LCROSS pre-impact modeling. The view may not be as dramatic as one might imagine, but it appears certainly worth trying for.
The success of amateur imaging is dependent on the LCROSS Team gathering and publishing for amateur use, the apparent brightness of the surface area around Caebus A1 and the shadowed portion of Cabeus A1 in both mpsas and V stellar magnitudes. If the shadowed floor of Cabeus A1 is brighter than 4.0 mpsas, the impact cannot be observed or imaged by amateurs.
By the NASA LCROSS Team calling for amateur imaging and by inducing, through press releases stating that the impact is observable, the public's attendence at private star parties, the LCROSS Team has undertaken the business ethical obligation to gather and publish such photometry data prior to September 27 and before Oct. 9. This ethical obligation is also incured by their dual role as scientists and public governmental employees.
September 27 represents the last date in which the south lunar pole will be at 71% illuminated fraction and on which amateurs can make useful "dry runs" of their imaging gear.
Advanced amateurs with photometric gear may wish to gather and share their hobbyist studies of the apparent brightness of the shadows of small craters on the opposite east side of the southern polar Moon on September 27.
Again, this is an amateur note. Comments and criticisms on the same are welcomed.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Grey -
To observe visually, no filters will be needed. Use at least 5 inches of aperture, 10 inches or more is perferred. Use the highest feasible lunar planetary imaging power that your scope will handle - 300x is what I am using based on test observing and imaging for the last month.
At such high magnifications, lunar glare will not present a problem. There will be no glare and so accessory actions like stopped down your aperture or using filters to reduce the brightness of the image are not warranted.
Such filters or other glare reduction procedures may reduce you chances of seeing the plume by reducing the peak plume brightness that your scope can capture.
There is a recommendation on the LCROSS Citizen Science "About" page to use a polarizing filter. I have no comment or feelings about that recommendation.
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. -
The LCROSS Team Citizen Science About page recommendation reads:
"However, observations are not trivial as the dust cloud may have a brightly lit Moon surface behind it, depending on the exact impact site selected, making it more difficult to see the dust cloud due to the poor contrast; bright dust against a bright Moon surface. The dust will polarize the scattered light but using polarimetery can help with the observation."
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canopus56
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Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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In follow-up to my post yesterday, I have a correction and a few after thoughts:
I have been reminded that the Kwiki video time stamp vendor has ceased operations. http://www.pfdsystems.com/sundown.htm . There is a comparable replacement product, but it is expensive. http://www.horita.com/gpsvideo.htm
Pooling resources in group observation is preferred. This recommendation relates to leverage the unique ability to the known time of the impact. NASA TV will be broadcasting images from the shepherding satellite and is offered as a channel on some commercial satellite signal vendors. NASA TV can be accessed via a portable TV dish setup. This will allow observers to time when start that video imaging capture and minimize the amount of wasted disk space. This compares to SMART-1 and Deep Impact, where many minutes of video capture needed to be done, because the moment of impact could not be determined precisely. This consideration weighs in favor of group observing and pooling resources to support a common dish setup. Another timing option seen on Deep Impact is to have one local club member monitor NASA TV on a cable channel. Just before the impact, cells phones can be used to alert remote site observers to start their imagers.
Because of the recommended high magnification, box mounted DOB observers may wish to consider buddying up with a tracking mount scope owner.
Smaller 5 inch Alt Az mount owners may wish to consider switching to equatorial mount mode. With my Meade ETX 125, even with tracking, alt az tracking at very high magnification was okay, but bothersome. Switching the Meade ETX over to equatorial polar alignment mode, allowed for much smoothier and reliable tracking. With this improved tracking, observing at 300x through a 4mm TMB planetary eyepiece was much more relaxed and enjoyable.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
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Posts: 450
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LCROSS observing slide presentation
here is my slide presentation regarding amateur observing of the LCROSS impact. It includes finders, visual observing recommendations and imaging recommendations.
MS Powerpoint version (10 meg) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090915LCROSSImpactUpdate.ppt http://tinyurl.com/pbb7pw
Slide presentation as PDF file (12 meg) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090916LCROSSImpactUpdate.pdf http://tinyurl.com/pfujnv
in directory:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/
Clear Skies - Kurt
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kraterkid
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Reged: 03/07/05
Posts: 4547
Loc: Jacumba, California
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Kurt, I just wanted to thank you for all the hard work and research you have done putting together this superb slideshow. Its a great manual for the event, I'm going to print it up and use it as my guide for event preparation, equipment selection, imaging settings and event timing.
Are the time signatures from my DMK 41AF02.AS and computer good if I use atomic clock updates? BTW, I use Astro IIDC for my capture software.
Thanks again!
-------------------- Rich
My CN Gallery
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desertstars
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Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34547
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Very well done, indeed.
I posted a link to this thread in the Beginner's Forum. It would be nice to get the newbies excited about this, so they don't miss out.
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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canopus56
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Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Thanks, Krater. Cool video time stamping gear.
Be sure to check at the LCROSS Citizen Science page for updates. The LCROSS Team and the moderator Rick Baldridge is updating imaging protocols and for other new info.
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/ http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/
Looks like we are ready. All we have to worry about now are the usual things - weather and if the plume model doesn't work so we get a fizzle instead of a snazzle of a show.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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Stops, masks and observing the LCROSS impact
A prior version of the NASA Citizen Scientist About page recommended an occulting disk in SCTs to reduce stray light. Such a disk effectively increases the size of the central obstruction.
"The plume, if observable, will be very faint compared to the illuminated waning gibbous Moon, so any technique that can reduce stray light in your optical system should be used. On Schmidt-Cassegrain type telescopes, one trick is to make a circle of black paper about 30 percent larger than the secondary mirror mount that is temporarily taped to the mirror mount, preventing stray light from entering the baffle tube inside the tube assembly. Newtonian reflectors telescopes are a bit more difficult to shield from stray light, so the best approach is to just have clean, well collimated optics."
I understand that this recommendation may be dropped, but wanted to explore further what role aperture stops and apodizing masks might play as useful observing accessories for the LCROSS impact.
The general conclusion and recommendation of this note is that apodizing masks will increase resolution with acceptable brightness losses for SCTs and Newts in the 14 inch class. Apodozing masks and aperture stops may not be a good option for 10 inch Newts and SCTs. Apodizing masks probably confer no benefit for Newts or for refractors smaller than 10 inches in aperture. Occulting disks should not be used.
These conclusions are based on a web-based page and amateur literature review. They are not based on experience, since I only rarely use a aperture stop and have not constructed an apodizing mask. However, my quick look has inspired to try and build an apodizing mask for lunar observing with my 10 inch Newt.
The following is a discussion focusing on the use of apodizing masks and off-axis aperture stops with respect to the LCROSS impact. I have not personally built an apodizing mask and their effectiveness and use is the subject of much conflicting information on the internet.
Here, I focus on the comments and opinions of three noted members of the amateur and professional community: John Westfall, Harold Suiter and Thierry Legault with some historical refernece to Sidgwick's Amateur Astronomy Handbook.
The purpose of masks and stops for Newtonians and SCTs above 200mm in aperture relate to seeing found at the time of observation. Larger apertures are relatively more susceptible to distortion from atmospheric distortion than smaller refractors of 130mm or less because the larger scope's apertures subtend a greater angular dimension of the sky. Conversely, smaller apertures have larger larger Airy disks and inherently less resolution than a larger aperature Newtonian or SCT, i.e. a larger Dawes limit.
Average or below average atmospheric turbulence robs larger Newtonians and SCTs of their superior performance relative to smaller refractors because there large apertures gather light from a relatively larger angular diameter. However, in skies with excellent seeing, the larger aperture Newt and SCT can access their inherently superior optical resolution - if for brief moments of still air - and out-perform their smaller refractor cousins. Application of these principles can be seen in the modern DSO imagers preference for smaller 135mm or less short fl refractors for imaging. Because they exposure for long periods in average seeing air, the seeing disk stays around 1-3 arcsecs in diameter, their digital cameras can accumulate light over long periods of time, and large aperture scopes are harder to make track accurately. These performance characteristics weigh in favor of a small aperture refractor for hobby DSO imaging.
In such average or less than average seeing, smaller refractors give the visual illusion of having a better image. This is because their resolution is lower and because of this lower resolution, the smaller scope is not capable of transmitting the details of "boiling air" that one sees at higher magnification in the larger Newt or SCT.
Because of poor seeing's effect on larger aperture Newts and SCTs, amateur owners of such scopes apply the rule-of-thumb that "stopping down, when seeing is poor, gives a better image." Sidgwick at 473.
Aperture stops and/or apodizing masks convert the 10 inch Newtonian into a smaller aperture scope that is less susceptible to the effects of atmospheric distortion. The stop-down does not increase the inherent resolution performance of the larger aperture Newt scope. Counterintuitively, it creates the illusion of a higher resolution image by creating an inherently lower-resolution image that is less able to reproduce the effects of atmospheric disturbance.
This benefit of stopping down is not, however, without a trade-off. First, Dawes limit still applies and the now smaller apertured stopped-down large light bucket scope has larger Airy disks and a lower resolution. Blocking the larger Newtonian scope also reduces the light collected of the mirror (light grasp) and the image is relatively dim as the large Newt's smaller refractor cousin. But as Westfall notes discussing apodizing rings this "creates some light loss, but with the Moon this is scarely a problem."
Newtonians and SCTs are typically stopped down using an off-axis mask. Construction of a typical mask can be found on the web. An example can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/AlyaSerpens/OffAxisApertureStop.html .
The aperture off-axis stop-down mask is a common-sense tool for the owner's of large Newts and SCTs. If you set up and seeing is so poor it cannot support your larger aperture, you can pull out a light-weight mask and convert your large aperture 10 inch scope into a 5 inch scope. An equivalent, but somewhat heavy gear option that I use is two own (and sometimes haul) a second 5 1/4" refractor. If I arrive at the site and seeing is bad, I can set up the smaller refractor instead of the light-bucket Newt. (With age, the light-weight mask looks more attractive.)
Another variant of a stopping mask is the apodizing diaphram mask. The apodizing diaphram mask differs in basic construction from the off-axis small-holed stop-down mask. Web examples of amateur construction of an apodizing diaphgram mask include urls -
http://home.pcisys.net/~astrogirl/tips1.phphttp://www.csastro.org/gallery/article4.htm
The apodizing mask consists of a series of mesh screens that are concentric and on-axis.
Ancedontal web opinions on how well these masks work either (a) to inherently improve resolution in good seeing, or (b) to work as a stop-down mask in average or less-than average seeing, or (c) to work on refractors as opposed to Newts and SCTs widely differ.
Harold Suiter, author of the widely respected _Star Testing Your Telescope_, feels that apodizing masks do not offer a benefit to SCTs that have a large central obstruction, while they will improve the image of a lower central obsructed Newtonian.
Suiter, H. 2001. Apodization for Obstructed Amateurs. url: http://home.digitalexp.com/~suiterhr/TM/ApodDes.pdf
Suiter, H. 2003. Apodization. (Webpage). url: http://home.digitalexp.com/~suiterhr/TM/apodize.htm
Suiter also notes that such rings _must be engineered_ based on the telescope - they cannot be constructed from rules-of-thumb. Construction of the screen is a simple matter for amateurs and involves simple measuring, cutting cardboard or masonite and window screen material.
On his Apodization website, Suiter provides an Excel spreadsheet by which an amateur can determine the proper measurements for an apodizing ring. The spreadsheet is not easy to follow and requires study.
http://home.digitalexp.com/~suiterhr/TM/ApodizeTut.xls
Suiter notes that _informally engineered_ apodizing masks that he obtained from local amateurs and that he tested usually did not confer benefit assumed by the owner. This was because the masks were not formally engineered and were created using rules-of-thumb.
The second view by John Westfall, a widely respected professional lunar observer who has been active with the amateur community, is that apodizing masks will help both SCTs and Newtonians in their inherent resolution performance on lunar targets and during periods of average or less than average seeing. Westfall discusses apodizing rings in Westfall's _Atlas of the Lunar Terminator_ (2000) at 13.
Westfall discusses the reasoning behind his use of an "apodizing ring" on obstructed telescopes. The circular slot in Westfall's ring for a 280mm SCT was at 72 and 86 percent of aperature.
Westfall concluded that the ring inherently improves resolution for telescopes with large obstructions (SCTs or Newts) when lunar observing, but not for unobstructed telescopes.
Westfall performed ray tracing analysis of unobstructed and obstructed telescope types. He computed that the performance of highly obstructed scopes (32%) changed when an apodizing ring was used:
Ring? 50% Airy Disc arcsecs 80% Airy Disc arcsecs Transmission No 0.39 0.59 90% Yes 0.17 0.55 68%
There was less of a performance increase for unobstructed scopes. Westfall's conclusion for unobstructed refractors is similar to Suiter, who concluded that the improvement confered on unobstructed scopes by apodizing masks "was subtle."
Westfall concludes: "In summary, central obstruction removes light from the central Airy disk and places it in the diffraction rings, while an apodizing ring has the opposite effect. An apodizing ring can also improve the performance of an unobstructed system. Using an apodizing ring creates some light loss, but with the Moon this is scarely a problem." _Atlas of the Lunar Terminator_.
With respect to the LCROSS experiment, there is uncertainty regarding plume brightness and a basic observing strategy assumes that observing the plume is _brightness limited._ As such, smaller aperture scopes of 10 inches or smaller probably should not use an apodizing mask - even if one could construct a properly engineered one within the remaining time before impact. Losing 68% of light-grasp to an apodizing ring would reduce the probability that the plume could be observed if it is less bright than the LCROSS Team model predicts. Observers may want to maintain a margin of safety with respect to light grasp should the plume not reach the modeled apparent brightness of 4 mpsas.
Owners of larger 14 inch class Newtonians and SCTs might benefit from an apodizing mask while at the same time preserving margin of light grasp safety equal to a 10 inch telescope. If Westfall's reasoning is correct, an improved resolution resolution benefit will be confered in both good seeing or if seeing is less than average.
With respect to occulting disks - which are simply larger artificial central obstructions - Thierry Legault's "Obstruction" web page analyzes the effect of central obstruction on lunar-planetary images. url: http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/obstruction.html
Legault concludes that up to the larger 33% central obstruction of SCTs,
"[T]he resolution power is not modified on high contrast structures: Moon, double stars, Cassini division, shadow of a ring or a satellite, edge of a planet,....
[T]he resolution power may be lowered on low contrast objects: surfaces of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. . . ."
Placing a larger than 33% occulting disk at the center of a larger Newtonian or SCT will probably both reduce resolution - dispropotionately more than would occur with an apodizing mask - and image brightness.
In summary, a literature review indicates that apodizing masks for larger 14 inch class Newts and SCTs may improve observation of the LCROSS impact plume without causing unacceptable light losses. The improvement may be inherent and work in both excellent seeing skies or when seeing is less than average.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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StarmanDan
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Reged: 08/27/07
Posts: 391
Loc: China Spring, Texas
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I just took a look on the LCROSS Citizen Scientist page regarding recording the event and noted that they are recommending exposure times such that 8-9 mag. stars are just visible. Would this not greatly over-expose the lunar surface such that any plume would be rendered invisible? I assume then that we're imaging the ejecta plume as it rises above the lunar limb and is contrasted by the background sky?
-------------------- "Starman" Dan Doyle
Texas Astronomical Society of Dallas
Central Texas Astronomical Society
8" LX200GPS w/ST80 guidescope, Canon 350D+DSI Pro
150mm f/8 Sky Watcher Refractor
10" f/4.5 Homemade Dob
RV-6 Criterion Dynascope
http://darcstar.wordpress.com
Edited by StarmanDan (09/20/09 06:32 PM)
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canopus56
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Check back in a couple of days. That recommendation will be updated soon. It was based on the outdated assumption that the impact crater will be on the observable limb and the curtain would go vertically to be contrasted against the night sky, e.g. Faustini. Now that the new off-limb Cabeus A1 crater has been designated, a new imaging strategy will be needed. - Kurt
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canopus56
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Here's an info panel of relative size models of the ejecta curtain at it brightest size and of the crater. They were done in Mathematica.
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090920CraterPlumeSim.JPG
My feeling is that where the plume is contrasted against a background of the sunlit lunar surface, it will not be visible. So, the relative sizes shown here should not be considered a useable guide. IMHO, essentially, a contrast effect will occur where the shadowed portion of Cabeus A1 as seen from Earth will disappear as the ejecta plume reaches an apparent brightness nearly equal to the surface brightness of the sunlit lunar regolith.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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The Feb. 28, 2008 LPOD reproduces a topographic color-coded NASA JPL south polar map. http://lpod.wikispaces.com/February+28,+2008
From this one can see that south polar mountains M1 and M3 rise about 6 kilometers from their surrounding terrain.
When look at Tom Bash's high libration south polar image (http://www.lpod.org/?m=20070106 labeled at bottom), one can see how Cabeus A and Cabeus A1 sit near the foot of M1.
Bash's image and the known height of M1 at about 6km gives me some sense of the vertical scale against which to imagine an LCROSS ejecta plume that is 5km high. The LCROSS lampshade model at its brightest is 5km tall, with 3km expected to appear above the target crater’s rim. At the extreme southwest lunar pole, length and width distances are distorted by foreshortening while the vertical dimension has almost no foreshortening.
Clear Skies and Happy Impact Imaging - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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P.S. Bash image with hyperlink active:
http://www.lpod.org/?m=20070106
- K
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Imaging an ejecta curtain pattern on the surface around the crater the night after the impact?
It occurs to me that the geometry of the impact curtain and crater lip is such that some of the ejecta curtain will fall outside the rim of the crater onto the surrounding lunar plain. See my model at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090920CraterPlumeSim.JPG
Perhaps another imaging challenge would be for the night after the impact.
Might it be possible to image the surface around the crater and see any evidence of a change in surface brightness, e.g. rays, patches? Or will the dust in the ejecta cloud be so dispersed by the time it breaches the crater rim, that there will not be enough dust to register a change that can be picked up by Earth based amateurs?
Such speculating. It may be worth throwing a camera on it during the morning of Oct 10 just for the giggles.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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A Martian example of an ice layer exposed by small meteor impact
Science NASA News 9-24-2009
Meteorite Impacts Expose Ice on Mars
"[A] fresh, 6-meter-wide, 1.33-meter-deep crater on Mars photographed on Oct. 18, 2008, and again on Jan. 14, 2009, by Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter's HiRISE camera. The bright material is ice, which fades from Oct. to Jan. because of sublimation and obscuration by settling dust. "
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/24sep_martianice.htm?list864576
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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A repost from the main lunar list just to capture this important press conference in the LCROSS thread:
The Chandrayann-1 NASA Press briefing of 9-24-2009 is available on NASA-YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?v=je0FviGlBz8&user=NASAtelevision
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS Surface Brightness around Cabeus and Cabeus A1
From the data slice from an image at 68% illuminated fraction in the USGS ROLO lunar image archive, I get an amateur estimate of 3.8 mpsas +- 8% for the lunar surface north of Cabeus A1.
My estimate is based on draft computations at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090927mpsaskaf/20090928ROLOCabeusAmpsas.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/y98x3rg
Considering uncertainty in the max ejecta plume brightness at 4.0 mpsas, the surface brightness estimate is not significantly different in brightness from the plume itself. Presumably, the plume will be brighter than the Earth visible shadowed portion of Cabeus A1, just as the 3.8 mpsas surrounding surface is brighter than the shadowed portion of the crater.
If the final selected LCROSS target is moved from Cabeus A1 to Cabeus proper, the signficance of the surface brightness for amateur imagers discussed above does not changed as a result of a target change.
This is an amateur estimate and not suitable for citation or news reporting purposes.
As to pre-impact imaging practice all analogous illuminated fraction opportunities have now passed. For pre-impact gear shakedowns, I recommend regardless of the Moon's altitude to practice exposure calibration via the technique demonstrated in David Dockery's 9-27-2009 slide:
http://home.comcast.net/~dave.dockery/LCROSS_Practice_9_26.pdf
You objective is to take an image at high effective focal lengths and make sure a line profile across the bright surface going through the shadowed portion of a small crater is sufficient that your well capacity will pick up any changes in the shadowed portion of the crater. Be sure to open stored images and run a line profile. Do not rely on just eyeballing the preview window. In Dockery's test, he has slightly underexposed the image. The crater shadow portion of the line profile should be higher from the 0 well capacity point. That way, if anything happens in the crater shadow during the impact, you will pick it up.
Any small crater near the limb and and 20 selenographic degrees from the terminator will suffice. Since you are during a photometric exposure test, seeing and sharp resolution do not matter. Remember although the Moon is low now (Sept. 28) on the morning of the impact, it will be at about 70 deg alt for most of North America.
Clear Skies and happy impact imaging -
Kurt canopus56@yahoo.com
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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LCROSS NASA LCROSS Team changes final target to Cabeus proper
Details of the precise target location within Cabeus (98 km dia. http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Cabeus ) presumably will be announced later. - Kurt
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NASA's LCROSS Mission Changes Impact Crater Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:26:48 PM MDT http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/main/index.html
MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. -- NASA's Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite mission (LCROSS) based on new analysis of available lunar data, has shifted the target crater from Cabeus A to Cabeus (proper).
The decision was based on continued evaluation of all available data and consultation/input from members of the LCROSS Science Team and the scientific community, including impact experts, ground and space based observers, and observations from Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), Lunar Prospector (LP), Chandrayaan-1 and JAXA's Kaguya spacecraft. This decision was prompted by the current best understanding of hydrogen concentrations in the Cabeus region, including cross-correlation between the latest LRO results and LP data sets.
The general consensus of lunar experts led by the LCROSS science team is that Cabeus shows, with the greatest level of certainty, the highest hydrogen concentrations at the south pole. Further consideration of the most current terrain models provided by JAXA's Kaguya spacecraft and the LRO Lunar Orbiter Laser Altimeter (LOLA) was important in the decision process.The models show a small valley in an otherwise tall Cabeus perimeter ridge, which will allow for sunlight to illuminate the ejecta cloud on Oct. 9, and much sooner than previously estimated for Cabeus. While the ejecta does have to fly to higher elevations to be observed by Earth assets, a shadow cast by a large hill along the Cabeus ridge, provides an excellent, high-contrast, back drop for ejecta and vapor measurements.
The LCROSS team concluded that Cabeus provided the best chance for meeting its mission goals. The team critically assessed and successfully advocated for the change with the Lunar Precursor Robotic Program (LPRP) office. The change in impact crater was factored into LCROSS' most recent Trajectory Correction Maneuver, TCM7.
During the last days of the mission, the LCROSS team will continue to refine the exact point of impact within Cabeus crater to avoid rough spots, and to maximize solar illumination of the debris plume and Earth observations.
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 843
Loc: Waco, TX
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Is the exact time of impact available yet? I think when the 4:30 am PDT time was first posted, NASA said that it is accurate to +- 30 min, and a time precise within a second would be given two weeks before impact. But I can't find an announcement of the exact time.
-------------------- Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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"The impact time is approximately 11:30 UT, or 4:30 a.m. PDT, 5:30 a.m. MDT and 6:30 a.m. CDT. The impact time will be known to within one second approximately nine hours before impact. The updated impact time will be posted online at http://www.nasa.gov/lcross ."
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Updated how-to-observe slide presentation
I have updated my slide presentation on how to observe the LCROSS impact for the 9-27-2009 change in the target crater.
Slide presentation as PDF file (16 meg) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090916LCROSSImpactUpdate.pdf http://tinyurl.com/pfujnv
MS Powerpoint version (12 meg) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090915LCROSSImpactUpdate.ppt http://tinyurl.com/pbb7pw
These are also linked off the LCROSS Observing Group "how to observe" page at:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/observing-how-to
Clear skies - Kurt
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Ricky
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/09/03
Posts: 2361
Loc: Nor Cal
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Thanks for all of the info. on the upcoming impact...im hoping to capture something using my Intes M703 MCT and Toucam pro II webcam...<crossing fingers>
-------------------- Regards Ricky
_______________
ADM Mount w/SiTech GoTo
WO ZS66
Orion Autoguider
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Here's hoping. - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Get your NASA LCROSS Citizen Science page accounts now
This is a suggestion concerning the official NASA LCROSS site to submit your impact images at the LCROSS Citizen Science page hosted on a NASA server at url:
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/
To post and share your images with the rest of the nation, you will need to establish an account with NASA at that site.
To avoid a possible internet clog on the day of the impact, I recommend if you do intend to image and submit, that you establish your account at NASA now, instead of waiting until Oct. 9.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Weather update
The NOAA seven day national forecast for the period ending Oct. 8 shows highs over the central and northern U.S. with a low pressure zone over Baja, possibly extending up to southern californa.
http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/medr/day7nav_color.html
Clear Skies, Kurt
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Freddy WILLEMS
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/13/05
Posts: 2547
Loc: Hawaii, Honolulu
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Just hit this post.
I will be on standby here in Hawaii for imaging.
I guess it will occur around 1:30 AM october 9 here in Hawaii. Can somebody confirm that ?
Please do keep the exact time updated. I really do not want to miss this event.
-------------------- Freddy
Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier
Celestron C 14" Peltier cooled for planetary imaging.
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED
DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D Unmoddified
Canon 40D Hutech moddified
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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Refined impact coordinates and times
In the LCROSS Observation newsgroup, Brian Day, the LCROSS Public Outreach officer, has posted the following refined impact coordinates. For amateur impact observing, these coordinates will not change significantly between now an the Oct. 9 impact that a change will effect telescope pointing:
Centaur: S84.675, W47.725 (311.275E) 9 Oct 2009 11:31:30 UTC
SSC: S84.729, W49.36 (310.64E) 9 Oct 2009 11:35:45 UTC
Using Jim Mosher's LTVT software ( http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/LTVT ), I have plotted a best impact fit on an aerial view chart. Only the Centaur impact is shown. The shepherding satellite impact is so close that the position difference is not material for Earth observing.
http://tinyurl.com/y8zy4ck
As noted upthread, "The impact time is approximately 11:30 UT, or 4:30 a.m. PDT, 5:30 a.m. MDT and 6:30 a.m. CDT. The impact time will be known to within one second pproximately nine hours before impact. The updated impact time will be posted online at http://www.nasa.gov/lcross ."
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - Brian's communication reads in full:
------ MoonThumper Oct 2, 1:20 pm From: MoonThumper <brianh...@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Correction to Coordinates and Times Final LCROSS Centaur and SSC target coordinates (Lat., Lon. in ME) Centaur: -84.675, 311.275 E SSC: -84.729, 310.64 E Elevations (Assumed Lunar radius: 1737.4 km): Centaur target elev: -3.82693 km SSC target elev: -3.80909 km Impact Times: Centaur: 9 Oct 2009 11:31:30 UTC SSC: 9 Oct 2009 11:35:45 UTC
Note: These are nominal impact positions and times. Actual impact times based on TCM results may differ (see next slide for uncertainties)
Original message:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/browse_thread/thread/2e9016c356bc0d71
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 450
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