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russell23
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Lunar craters inverting illusion
      #3641165 - 02/22/10 06:04 PM

I've had this happen at times over the years but I've never bothered to find out why it happens. Last night when I was observing the Moon I was getting tired and suddenly the craters would pop so that the crater floor would appear as a plateau and the various peaks in the craters would appear as depressions.

What causes this phenomenon. It was an all or nothing thing. As soon as one crater reversed they all did and when they reverted back to normal they all did.

Dave


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Kutno
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3641381 - 02/22/10 07:42 PM

David,

I do not know why it happens; but it occurred last night, when I started to look at the Moon. While I have experienced this with my reflectors, it was the first time I saw it in a refractor. I had to keep telling myself that the "pits" in the middle of the "plateaus" were really central peaks in craters; then, the image would revert to normal.

While I do not why this optical illusion occurs, what I am about to say next is an anecdotal theory about its frequency of occurrence: Its triggering may have something to do with that fact that it was the first night I was out under the stars, with a scope, this year. I do not recall this happening last year, once my viewing season really began, during the spring. If expectations play a role, and being able to "talk" myself into the proper image suggests that this is so, then perhaps the "novelty" of viewing the Moon's black-gray-white landscape makes it conducive for the illusion to occur.


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ColoHank
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: Kutno]
      #3641587 - 02/22/10 09:33 PM

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the eye is conditioned to interpret aerial images of terrain most faithfully when scenes are illuminated from the upper left (from the northwest if a terrestrial image). I've never experienced the illusion when observing the Moon through a telescope, but have noticed the effect when viewing satellite imagery on Google Earth or good old aerial photos. In those instances, it's easy to remedy things by rotating the photo or the image until it appears illuminated from the upper left. A young Moon would be illuminated from the right as viewed naked-eye, so lunar terrains might appear inverted in depth unless, of course, the telescope reverses images right-to-left. I'd imagine that would tend to negate the illusion. Confused? So am I.

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russell23
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: ColoHank]
      #3641656 - 02/22/10 10:05 PM

The thing I noticed is that the effect really seemed to take hold if my eyes relaxed so that I was looking, but not really looking -- kind of like those computer generated posters that were big in the 90's in which it looked like a bunch of colors but if you let your eyes relax a 3-D image popped out.

I could make the effect go away if I wanted. But when I tried to keep the effect it would go back and forth between normal and inverted.

Dave


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ColoHank
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3641867 - 02/23/10 12:28 AM

I'm familiar with those novelty 3D posters, and used the same technique to study stereo pairs of aerial photos back in the day. But that takes two eyes. Are you using a binoviewer with your scope?

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russell23
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: ColoHank]
      #3642169 - 02/23/10 07:54 AM

Quote:

I'm familiar with those novelty 3D posters, and used the same technique to study stereo pairs of aerial photos back in the day. But that takes two eyes. Are you using a binoviewer with your scope?




No, I'm not using binoviewers. I was using that example because I noticed it starting to happen when my eyes got a little tired and relaxed - almost like I was staring through the Moon instead of at it. OTOH I could directly look at the Moon and force it to happen too and then move my eyes around to different craters while it was happening.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I always observe with my left eye even though I'm right handed. I don't know what is normal in that regard because I generally don't on my own.

Dave


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desertstars

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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3642194 - 02/23/10 08:13 AM

I'm not sure what the technical explanation might be for the illusion, but I've experienced it many times myself. It often (but not always) comes late in an observing session so fatigue may play into it. I've also experienced it while looking at photos of craters, most recently in an image of a Saturnian moon. (Don't remember which one.)

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jim_m
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: desertstars]
      #3642223 - 02/23/10 08:35 AM

A bit of a strange sensation, eye/brain confusion. I do not see it as much on the Moon as on prited material.On the Moon, I seldom look straight down into craters, usually at a sligth to deep angle. Kinda helps to keep your orientation.
Jim


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photonovore
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: jim_m]
      #3642476 - 02/23/10 11:02 AM

This is an example of an optical illusion called "reversible perspective" typified by what is called a "Necker Cube". Other examples are 'reversible staircases'', inverting 'hollow masks' etc. It seems that lighting direction and degree of relief combined with degree of familiarity of the object itself are all factors. The effect is also associated with 2-d presentations; I have not heard of real objects reversing their perspective when viewed by the naked eye (real objects in real space), although i think if one were tired enough it could happen momentarily. I have always noticed, myself, that craters are more likely to pop, or reverse perspective, when the sunangle is higher and the cues of lighting less intense--and concentrating on the high relief of the terminator will cause things to pop back into proper perspective. I have heard that the direction of lighting is also a contributing factor, higher angles of lighting (from viewer's perspective, lighting sourced from the top of an image) cause less reversal problems than lighting coming from below the horizontal median line of the image. (crater illusion)




I also think this illusion is more common when fatigued-- and points to this illusion being more psychological than physiological in origin.


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Kutno
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3642631 - 02/23/10 11:57 AM

Great illustration, Mardi!

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ColoHank
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3643057 - 02/23/10 03:09 PM

Quote:

This is an example of an optical illusion called "reversible perspective" typified by what is called a "Necker Cube".




Thanks. It's nice to know there's a name for that phenomenon. The whole business brings to mind the drawings of M.C. Escher.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: ColoHank]
      #3645184 - 02/24/10 02:59 PM

Mardi: You're back! YAY!!!!
I'm familiar with the illusion, but I've never actually seen it. Not on the moon, and not in your photo. And I've tried! But, I *have* seen it in Mad Magazine, when they used to have the "Mad Poiuit", a 2-prong - no, 3-prong optical illusion.
Which makes me agree with Hank about Escher's work.


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Jim Rosenstock
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3645538 - 02/24/10 06:43 PM

This illusion happens to me often while observing the Moon.

For me, it happens more often near first quarter Moon; it also happens more often with binoviewers than in monovision. I haven't correlated it with fatigue, though.

When I get one of these "field reversals", I can't just "stare it down" to make the image switch back. Either I must remove my eye from the eyepiece for a moment, or--more effective--pan my scope down the terminator....at some pont the craters will look right again, and I can pan back to where the image reversed.

It's mostly a cool illusion--viewing domes when you know they're craters!--but sometimes it gets a little annoying when the illusion is persistent.

Jim

Oh, BTW, the Mad Magazine "impossible object" illusion was called the "Poiuyt". Try typing it, and you'll see how they came up with the name!


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photonovore
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #3645759 - 02/24/10 08:53 PM

Quote:

Mardi: You're back! YAY!!!!
I'm familiar with the illusion, but I've never actually seen it. Not on the moon, and not in your photo. And I've tried! But, I *have* seen it in Mad Magazine, when they used to have the "Mad Poiuit", a 2-prong - no, 3-prong optical illusion.
Which makes me agree with Hank about Escher's work.




Rick, count yourself fortunate! It can be really annoying, trust me...


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russell23
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3646054 - 02/24/10 11:58 PM

Jim, Interesting you mention 1st quarter because I haven't seen it in a while until I noticed it at 1st quarter Moon the other night.

Dave


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photonovore
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3646607 - 02/25/10 10:28 AM

This is exactly when I noticed the effect (stronger than usual)--this first quarter. The telescope i was using delivers a mirror image (diagonal) which preserves the upward angle to the illumination seen with the naked eye at this phase. Perhaps users of scopes that simply invert the image (and see an illumination angle coming from above as a result) were not so commonly affected?

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ColoHank
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3647635 - 02/25/10 08:21 PM

I recently finished reading a little book by R.A. Proctor entitled Half Hours with the Telescope . My thirteenth-edition copy was published in 1902, but the original dates back to 1868. Proctor devotes only part of one very short chapter to the Moon, which he describes as being one of the easiest and yet most disappointing objects to view. His principle complaint is that the Moon is boring because it never changes.

If only he had seen topographically inverted views of the Moon, with depressed mountains and mounded craters to break the monotony! No doubt he would have been enthralled.


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calibos
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: ColoHank]
      #3650389 - 02/27/10 08:58 AM

I'd be exactly the same as Jim. See it nearly every time I view the moon. Gets annoying and I have to look away to get he view to switch back. Can't force it by concentrating or staring. Have to reboot my vision by looking away as it were I also see it happen all the time when looking at the moon in Starry Night Pro and Moon Atlas on my iPhone.

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BSJ
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: calibos]
      #3650748 - 02/27/10 12:35 PM

Pay close attention to any relief map. One that uses shading to represent elevation.

The "shadows" will always be towards the bottom of the map. Natural illumination will never allow that to happen but the mind is tricked to perceive the intended effect.

If you're ever looking at an aerial photo, position it so the shadows are towards you. It's easier to see things as they really are.

Some of the things I learned as an imagery analyst in the Army…


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photonovore
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: BSJ]
      #3650890 - 02/27/10 01:55 PM

"Shadows towards you" works if the native elevations are primarily positive (as on Earth). If the elevations are primarily negative (as in the case of lunar crater fields) the opposite would apply--then you would position "shadows *away* from you (if possible) for a more "natural" perspective view.

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Scott Watson
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3651676 - 02/27/10 08:48 PM

It isn't so much an optical illusion as an optical ambiguity. I studied this phenomenon in graduate school and found that if you take an image (like a crater) that can be interpreted as either concave or convex and you tell the subject that it is one of the other, they will usually interpret that way. If you don't tell them anything, they will usually interpret it as a crater. It seems we default to the most common interpretation from our previous experience.

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Carol L

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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: Scott Watson]
      #3659341 - 03/03/10 10:47 PM

Here's another graphic which illustrates the "reversible perspective" illusion (great to see you again, Mardi!).
blister -vs- crater

They look like blisters until you turn the image upside down.


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photonovore
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: Carol L]
      #3660055 - 03/04/10 10:36 AM

Hi Carol! Just like old times, mm? That is an excellent illustration of the effect. I made an animated gif of the opposite images just for fun... Crater-dome Illusion

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calibos
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3679932 - 03/14/10 08:22 AM

If only I could switch views as easy on the moon in real life. I was able to switch from blisters to craters very easily without even looking at the image upside down. Pity its not that easy on the moon.

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revans
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: calibos]
      #3694540 - 03/20/10 09:28 PM

When I have a hard time deciding if I'm looking at a crater or a dome in a photo or on the moon, I usually check the bright areas of the crater rims to see if they are on the right or left. The opposite side will usually be in shadow. The lighting pattern on raised structures like domes is usually the opposite of what it is on adjacent craters. So if craters are bright on the left and dark on the right, then domes or raised structures will be dark on the left and bright on the right. I don't know if this is always true, but I find it to be a help...

Rick


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BillP
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3695917 - 03/21/10 03:34 PM

I remember the first time it happened to me...boy was I shocked. I find it is easy to flip also, so many times if I blink my eye and concentrate I can make it reverese at will. Like everything else, it's probably just a perspective interpretation thing with the brain. I've never seen it happen though with the binoviewer, always just in mono mode. Has anyone had this happen to them with the binoviewer??

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photonovore
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: BillP]
      #3699919 - 03/23/10 12:20 PM

yes, in a binoviewer. The illusion doesn't seem to be particularly affected by bino/monocular vision. test it on the gif I posted earlier...

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russell23
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #3730416 - 04/07/10 01:32 PM

Ok, I just had another example of this effect. I was reading an article in a magazine that was discussing whether or not there are cougars in upstate NY (reports of sightings are common even though there is no physical evidence confirming them).

So I flipped the page and there was this picture which showed tracks in the snow with a tail print trailing between the footprints. When I first looked at it I saw the same illusion as with the lunar craters. The footprints looked like domes and the tracks left by the tail looked like a raised ridge. I couldn't get the effect to go away until I flipped the magazine upside down.

We were sitting in the dentists office when I saw it and I didn't say anything to my wife until on the way home. I was describing effect as seen on the Moon and then mentioned the picture and she said "Oh - you saw it too! I thought it was just me seeing things wrong."

Dave


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star dropModerator
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #3731173 - 04/07/10 07:05 PM

Strange things happen in the dentists office. Oh yes.

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meteorite

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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: star drop]
      #4446356 - 03/13/11 10:07 AM

I am happy to have found this thread because this very things happend to me last night. I had just started observing. I was not fatiged. Moon half-full. I was uisng 193x on the moon (somehing I don't normally do) and bam - the craters were elevated. The illusion just kept flip-flopping. It was the strangest thing. At first I thought someting was wrong with my equipment but no, everythig else I observed ws normal.

As soon as darkness falls this evening, I'm going back out! I want to see if this happens again!!!

-Walt


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UmaDog
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: meteorite]
      #4446522 - 03/13/11 11:36 AM

The concave/convex illusion is well known. Here is a classic example:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QgoX78q-0Y

Basically, some objects are ambiguous regarding whether they are concave or convex. In these cases the brain makes a choice as to which it is based on what is most likely. This is the case with the face illusion. Viewed from in front, you always see that as a convex face even if you know that it isn't. It's hard or impossible to see it as concave until it has rotated.

The convexity of an object depends upon which way the shadows fall. In other words, on the arrangement of dark and light regions in an image. The weird thing is that you can even see illusory motion if the pattern of light and dark is arranged correctly. The following are coloured but also work as gray-scale. Check it out:
www.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/index-e.html
www.psy.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/volcanoislands.jpg


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cpsTN
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: russell23]
      #4451971 - 03/15/11 05:26 PM

This is one of two threads going on now about the same topic. I thought I would repost what I said in the other thread:

I would say that since the Moon is literally only light and shadow with no real perceivable color, it depends upon whether your mind concentrates on the bright parts or the dim parts. Depending upon which part - the light or the dark - your mind sees as the "main" scene will make the other parts look like they are either lower or higher than it is. Have you ever seen the siloettes(sp) of the two faces looking at each other. If you look and the outside colors, you see two faces looking at each other. If you look at the different color separating the two faces, you will see a vase. Sometimes when I am looking at a world map that is only dual color (water and land), I see the water as the main optical piece and can no longer see the outline of the continents. Its all about mental priority!


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Rossmon
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Re: Lunar craters inverting illusion new [Re: photonovore]
      #6243906 - 12/10/13 12:04 AM

I looked up this thread with a gsearch because it
has been getting more common for me when looking at the
moon. I am not fatigued or anything else just
looking with near perfect seeing and it happens. if I look away or
try looking differently it may go away. using my denk2 bino, 2 Denk 21's
and my 155edf. saw the explanation above. Neat!


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