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Rick Woods
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TLP Article in Dec. S&T
      #6171865 - 11/02/13 12:21 PM

Chuck Wood has an article in S&T on the 1963 TLP sighting by Greenacre and Barr. Check it out.

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DavidNealMinnick
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6172083 - 11/02/13 02:44 PM

Hmm, looks like my issue is late again! Edit: Issue arrived with Sat. afternoon's delivery. Joy!

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A6Q6
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Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6172311 - 11/02/13 05:22 PM

Hi Rick, I hope this time S&T will print other opinions that don't go along with Chuck Woods, Years ago S&T printed an article by Dobbins and Sheehan from their book "Epic Moon",(Very good book) where they only believed in "atmospheric prismatic dispersion for TLP'S. I have never seen any TLP's but I value other peoples research. S&T didn't allow any other opinions and there were plenty of people who wrote to them, (Rodger W Gordon) among others and not one was printed. Thank goodness for the internet, You could find plenty of apposing views from all over the world. I have been getting S$T since 1977 and I almost cancelled my subscription over it. Thanks, I feel much better now.

Edited by A6Q6 (11/02/13 06:08 PM)


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azure1961p
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6172376 - 11/02/13 06:17 PM

I think they would have printed Gordon's opinions and others if they were at all plausible enough or compelling . I ve never seen a peculiar bias coming out of Sky that served to unseat or sidestep the better scientific views or opinions presented. I look forward to Woods article.

Pete


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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6172392 - 11/02/13 06:37 PM

From Chris Lord: "Rodger W. Gordon has been an amateur astronomer for over 50 years. Since 1962 he has written over 300 articles that have been variously published in Review of Popular Astronomy, Star and Sky, Sky and Telescope, The Astronomical League Reflector, Zeiss Historica, the Practical Observer, the Amateur Telescope Maker's Journal, & ATM Journal, the LVAAS Observer, and the 1983 Yearbook of Astronomy. During his astronomical career Rodger "The Eyepiece King" Gordon, has owned over 70 telescopes, 350 - 400 eyepieces, 60 binocular, 50+ colour filters, 15 Barlows and numerous other optics. He has written over 80% of the catalogue descriptions for the Vernonscope auctions. Vernonscope being the world's largest scientific instrument auction house. He has worked for Edmund Scientific, Vernoscope, Optical Techniques, and as an occasional consultant to the Questar Corps. In 1962 Rodger W. Gordon was an independent co-discoverer of the 4 - 5 day rotation of Venus' upper atmosphere (see Sky & Telescope June 1999, p59). He is the author of a major article on resolution and contrast, referenced in Price's "The Planet Observer's Handbook" and Dobbins, Capen and Parker's "Introduction to Observing and Photographing the Solar System." When observing he uses mostly refractors and Maksutovs, and constantly experiments with various optical accessories. He is quite rightly regarded as an expert on astronomical eyepieces, their design and useage. He is working on a -- soon to be published -- book about telescope eyepieces. He divides his time between astronomy, birding, long walks and writing exceedingly long letters."

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azure1961p
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6172591 - 11/02/13 08:52 PM

Well yes and very nice and no news to me.


If he would have had a compelling enough countering point Im sure Sky would have run it. Gordon is a good observer and I agree with a lot of his opinions and Im a fan of his writings often, but he's also wrong and fallible at times.



Pete

Edited by azure1961p (11/02/13 08:54 PM)


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A6Q6
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Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6172636 - 11/02/13 09:24 PM

"he's also wrong and fallible at times." As are we all, but he was just one example of what was on the web at that time presenting a different view of that S&T article.

Edited by A6Q6 (11/02/13 09:25 PM)


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photonovore
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Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6173480 - 11/03/13 10:52 AM

So what's the fuss all about? I haven't read the S&T article, but Wood's recent posts about this topic on LPOD (August 25th & Oct 29th) both seem decidedly non-committal one way or the other...iow, "maybe, maybe not". Personally, i'd be pretty skeptical re; any anomalous observations of *colored* lunar phenomenon while using any achromatic telescope, but that's just me. However, i could see a real monochrome event *appearing* colored when viewed through an achromat...

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Rick Woods
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: photonovore]
      #6173634 - 11/03/13 12:09 PM

The thrust of the article is that the 1963 event is the most credible example of TLP sightings, and was documented extremely well by O'Connell and Cook in their JBAA paper. In addition, Greenacre and Barr were experienced professionals who had been using the Lowell refractor for two years mapping the Moon. They knew all about atmospheric dispersion, chromatic aberration, etc. They were not new, and were long-time skeptics of TLPs to boot. And, several other experienced people also saw the event.

Rodger Gordon is, as noted, an expert on optical issues, and he doubts very much that these men were fooled by chromatic aberration. Wood sticks to his opinion that it was an illusion, but at least concedes that he could be wrong.


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A6Q6
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Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: photonovore]
      #6173692 - 11/03/13 12:51 PM

"So what's the fuss all about? I haven't read the S&T article." Its a good article, my question is, will S&T allow an apposing study to be printed in the next issue? Or at lest print one apposing view in the letters section.

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photonovore
Moonatic
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Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6174510 - 11/03/13 09:20 PM

Thanks Rick, i'll have to give it a read next time i'm at the supermarket...

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Rick Woods
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: photonovore]
      #6175220 - 11/04/13 11:02 AM

Actually, Wood's article is more or less just a commentary on the O'Connell and Cook paper; that's really the one that bears reading. It's a free download.

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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6175223 - 11/04/13 11:04 AM

Quote:

"So what's the fuss all about? I haven't read the S&T article." Its a good article, my question is, will S&T allow an apposing study to be printed in the next issue? Or at lest print one apposing view in the letters section.




Sure they will, if someone submits a good one. Rodger Gordon has had several things published there that are contrary to astronomical dogma.


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Chuck Hards
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6175745 - 11/04/13 03:36 PM

Wasn't Gordon the owner and publisher of TPO?

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Rick Woods
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6177701 - 11/05/13 04:05 PM

TPO...?

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Chuck Hards
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6177730 - 11/05/13 04:17 PM

The Practical Observer

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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6179488 - 11/06/13 03:26 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

"Wasn't Gordon the owner and publisher of TPO? "The Practical Observer". No I don't think so. That was in Ky he is in Pa.

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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6179491 - 11/06/13 03:27 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

2

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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6179494 - 11/06/13 03:28 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Rodger W Gordon

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azure1961p
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6181164 - 11/07/13 02:13 PM

Ah yes - the 90mm Maksutov he resolved Enckes division with.


You do know about that right? Amazing observer indeed.

As far as Olympus Mons is concerned actually I don't see the hoopla here - a lot of amateurs have seen it.


Pete

Edited by azure1961p (11/07/13 02:16 PM)


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Rick Woods
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6181679 - 11/07/13 07:23 PM

Pete,

You're setting yourself up for some embarrassment when you start being condescending and flippant about Rodger Gordon and his observational abilities. As for his book, I recommend reading it before commenting.


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photonovore
Moonatic
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Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6181882 - 11/07/13 09:37 PM

Is Roger Gordon still around? last letter I got from him was back in 'o6... (geez, i have been so outta touch lately... :/ )

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azure1961p
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: photonovore]
      #6182062 - 11/07/13 11:48 PM

Rick,

There's no risk of embarrassment here as I havent stated anythimg false or untrue. Some if his claims are sensible - indeed his thoughts on eyepieces and magnification are spot on. Still others are a reach at best and at least one example utterly false and baseless. How or why Mr. Bruce decided to turn a thread about TLPs into a Roger Gordon Adoration procession is beyond me . Gordon's thoughts on Mellish fare not a whole lot better than his Questar claim. Some things he gets right, others not at all. I can't be embarrassed for something Im not wrong about .

As for his book - Ive read too much information elsewhere that's too damning of Mellish to make his book seem like anything but an exercise in self indulgent lawyering on Gordon's part.



Pete

Edited by azure1961p (11/07/13 11:53 PM)


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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: photonovore]
      #6182183 - 11/08/13 01:54 AM

Quote:

Is Roger Gordon still around? last letter I got from him was back in 'o6... (geez, i have been so outta touch lately... :/ )




Very much so!


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Rick Woods
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Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6182187 - 11/08/13 01:56 AM

Quote:

Rick,

There's no risk of embarrassment here as I havent stated anythimg false or untrue. Some if his claims are sensible - indeed his thoughts on eyepieces and magnification are spot on. Still others are a reach at best and at least one example utterly false and baseless. How or why Mr. Bruce decided to turn a thread about TLPs into a Roger Gordon Adoration procession is beyond me . Gordon's thoughts on Mellish fare not a whole lot better than his Questar claim. Some things he gets right, others not at all. I can't be embarrassed for something Im not wrong about .

As for his book - Ive read too much information elsewhere that's too damning of Mellish to make his book seem like anything but an exercise in self indulgent lawyering on Gordon's part.



Pete




Just trying to help, Pete.


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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6182278 - 11/08/13 04:56 AM

Hi Pete, In my original post I said Rodger W Gordon among others, had written to S&T in response to a Dobbins and Sheehan article back in 1999 saying that all TLP's are from atmospheric prismatic dispersion . Rodger Gordon among others, The (among others)were, (people on the internet at that time from all over the world) that responded to the article (and not one was printed .) You said no ones response could have been plausible enough or compelling or S&T would have printed it. For the benefit of some of the younger people who may not know who Mr Gordon is, I provided some info from Chris Lord about Him showing that S&T had printed stuff from him in the past. Its not about an "Adoration procession", I used him as (one example) (among many) who's voice went unheard. I guess what I'm trying to say is, isn't there any one out in CN land that feels S&T did not want to print any apposing views on the Dobbins and Sheehan article? What S&T did in the past I'm concerned they will do with Chuck Woods article.

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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6182282 - 11/08/13 05:06 AM

Pete, I think I see what you mean about an "Adoration procession" I included RWG's book because I thought Chuck Hards and others might want to see the book Mr Gordon did write. It had the word Observing in the title but it wasn't TPO.

Edited by A6Q6 (11/08/13 09:54 AM)


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Bob O.
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Reged: 11/20/06

Loc: Keystone Heights, FL
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6248229 - 12/12/13 01:14 AM

I have followed with interest the Cloudy Nights postings on the paper I wrote with Tony Cook published in the August 2013 issue of the Journal of the British Astronomical Association - "Revisiting the 1963 Aristarchus Events" . I fully appreciate TLP are a very controversial issue and in fact a volatile and emotional topic for some. As for me, I am a TLP agnostic. I have never seen a TLP, but have been briefly fooled (and frankly embarrassed) a few times. Neither Tony or I are TLP proponents. We are, however, proponents of using the scientific method to resolve the TLP issue once and for all. While there is a great deal of information on the paper's web site, may I suggest if you read anything in addition to the paper, read the Night 2 Repeat Illumination supplement I posted in early December. This brief, three-page supplement, distills the core observational anomalies contained within these two TLP reports and suggests what interested observers can do to test terrestrial hypotheses to explain them. Tony and I both appreciate the fair and balanced coverage Dr. Chuck Wood has given to our research in both the December 2013 issue of Sky and Telescope Magazine and in two recent LPOD postings. The paper and the above mentioned supplement are both available for free download on the paper's web site www.the1963aristarchusevents.com.
Kind Regards,
Bob O'Connell
Email: admin@the1963aristarchusevents.com
Cell phone: 352-213-1963
P.O. Box 1963, Keystone Heights, FL 32656


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A6Q6
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Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Bob O.]
      #6248263 - 12/12/13 02:00 AM

Thanks for the Info but I'm getting: "Bad Request - Invalid Hostname" when I go to: www.the1963aristarchusevents.com.

Edited by A6Q6 (12/12/13 02:02 AM)


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Bob O.
newbie


Reged: 11/20/06

Loc: Keystone Heights, FL
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6248521 - 12/12/13 08:52 AM

Bruce -- sorry about the "Bad Request" link -- try the link with additional "http:" web address element here: http://www.the1963aristarchusevents.com/

If this does not work (and I can't confirm it does until I post this) just Google "Revisiting the 1963 Aristarchus Events". Thank you for your interest in these observations.

Also the direct link to the Night 2 Repeat Illumination supplement is (with http:) http://www.the1963aristarchusevents.com/Night_2_Repeat_Illumination_Observati...

Currently this supplement is in the only red box on the web site -- just scroll down -- Bob


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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: TLP Article in Dec. S&T new [Re: Bob O.]
      #6249954 - 12/12/13 09:41 PM

Bob, the links work great now thanks.

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