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Strgazr27
  
Reged: 10/04/04
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2762577 - 11/21/08 01:50 AM
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Actually the advertised load capacity of the mount is 40 pounds and my main and guide scopes plus mini-dovetail and tube rings weighs 38 pounds. So that's two pounds below the advertised weight (not including counter weights).
A common misconception. The mount is/may be rated at 40 lbs and you can image quite succesfully at that payload but to do it repeatedly without issues requires a short focal length setup. Most mass produced mounts (Non high end read) are rated for visual use. Imaging, especially at the focal lengths we're looking at here is a whole different ball game. At the fl's your at you should figure payload to be about 1/2 what the mount is rated at. I've easily gone 15 minutes guided with my EQ6 and EQMOD with a 40 lb payload (TMB130SS/AT111) and guide errors never went higher than .65 pixels but I'm also imaging at under 1000mm fl. Another thing to consider is your image scale vs your local seeing. You most likely have some pretty good seeing at your location which is great. The problem some people have not mentioned and needs to be taken into account is your current resolution (Image scale) which is WAY below yours and most everyone else seeing conditions. When imaging at the focal lengths your at you actually want a camera with large pixels (8-9 microns or bigger). There is VERY little room for error with your current setup and the slightest polar misalignment or mount hiccup will show up like a sore thumb.
An option to cionsider is selling the JMI and going with a Moonlite. This allows the FR to be inserted into the drawtube saving you the headaches your experiencing and allowing for proper spacing to be kept.
CS's
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John J
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 11/05/07
Loc: Beresford SD
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Strgazr27]
#2762722 - 11/21/08 07:58 AM
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Your vibration pads could also be causing you some problems. If you polar align without the full load of the scopes and c- weights on the pads there will be a change as you load the OTA and counter weights on the pads. I also had the Orion vibration pads and no longer use them. The weight you are placing on them causes extreme squeeze out of the sorbethane. This will take place over the period of the night. The vibration pad under the counter weight shaft will be affected the most. This squeeze out will compromise your polar aliment. The pads also will allow some flexing if there is a slight breeze where a mount directly coupled to the ground is less affected. Orion does not give a weight rating for these pads but I feel it is about 20lbs max per pad IMO.
Also if you are walking around on the concrete pad you will be causing some vibrations also. People feel that concrete is solid and does not move. Avoid any movement on the pad while imaging.
Lose the vibration pads and see if your images improve. You are severely overloading them IMO.
Edited by John J (11/21/08 08:13 AM)
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AlexN
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/09/08
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: John J]
#2762753 - 11/21/08 08:39 AM
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Bobby:
I had quite a bit of trouble initially with my setup and that weight load, however once I sorted them out, I've found the Eq6 easily handles the weight and images well at 1756mm focal length. This is not to say that the mount is supremely capable, or that its the best option for this kind of setup (obviously most people would recommend at least a Losmandy G11, Titan or similarly large GEM) But it can be done, It just requires knowing your gear well, and a bit of mount tuning...
I image as often as possible, usually a couple of times a week with this setup, and unless there's a fair breeze, I rarely have problems...
As you say, arcsec per pixel makes a difference, My QHY8 having 8 micron pixels is a better option for this scope/mount setup..
I agree the vibration pads may be an issue here, as they are definitely not designed for this kind of load. I have 3 paving bricks set in the lawn for my mount, and find that just staying clear of the mount is enough.
The 40lb weight rating of the mount is not inclusive of counter weights, and if balanced properly, the instrument weight should have little to no bearing on the mount, as it would be correctly counter balanced by the weights..
I think number one on the agenda should be precise polar alignment, followed closely by finding a way to use the focal reducer with the camera... I've tried imaging at F/10 once or twice, and honestly, thats a whole other beast... Still, achievable, but NOT EASY!
Sorry for the ramble.. im tired
Cheers. Alex.
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David Pavlich
Transmographied
   
Reged: 05/18/05
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2762778 - 11/21/08 09:09 AM
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An observatory would be nice if I have the time and space to build one. 
I have a Celestron focal reducer. Right now the only place I can mount it is right at the rear cell of C-11. But I have to have about 3" - 4" extension to the camera because the diameter of Orion StarShoot camera is so big that it hits the JMI Motofocus without the extension. I think the extension is causing excessive vignetting. I have not yet figured out how to place the FR at the camera or in between the camera and extension. I am sure I can but I have not been looking hard enough.
Actually the advertised load capacity of the mount is 40 pounds and my main and guide scopes plus mini-dovetail and tube rings weighs 38 pounds. So that's two pounds below the advertised weight (not including counter weights). 
Peter
I missed the part about your camera being obstructed by the focuser in your earlier post. Gotta' do something about that. Bobby had a good suggestion, but, as always, costs astrobucks to do it.
It's my understanding that a said focal reducer has an optimum distance between the chip or film plane and the reducer. I don't know what the Celestron's is, but I'm sure someone here will be able to tell you.
Seems like a lot of problems can be solved with more astrobucks. 
David
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: David Pavlich]
#2762900 - 11/21/08 10:24 AM
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Hello,
Thanks for all the advices. I might get a good Off Axis Guider to determine if I have flexure or polar alignment issue. If I still get image shifting between frames, then it's likely polar alignment or vibration dampeners or both otherwise it may be flexure differential between guide scope and main scope.
I will try imaging without vibration dampeners.
Moonlight focuser is a good idea. I went to their web site and their focusers look very high quality. The web site is a little confusing. It lists the following focusers for Celestron:
http://www.focuser.com/cgi-bin/dman.cgi?page=productdetail&plugin=dstore.cgi&product=CS
Low Profile 3 1/4" thread Regular Profile 3 1/4" thread Focal Reducer 3 1/4" thread
0.85", 1.15" or 1.5" travel Brass compression ring 0.95" travel focal reducer Brass compression ring
Base price is $245.
I probably pick the Focal Reducer option ($245) plus DC motor w/Rigel hand controller ($150).
Would that be a good choice for my C-11?
More astrobucks, ughhhhh. 
Thanks, Peter
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Jeffrey Sugden
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 05/04/05
Loc: Akron, OH
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2762916 - 11/21/08 10:38 AM
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A suggestion (someone please let me know if I am off base, as this is how I would approach this problem were it mine).
Here's an approach to confirm/deny if your PA is sufficiently accurate.
I did not see what you are using for stacking your subs. I use DSS and it tells you the offset and rotation of each frame in the stack after registering the stack. Examining that data might tell you whether you have a PA issue.
Even though you are autoguiding and that looks good, PA errors will still show up as field rotation. The amount is affect be three things: PA error, focal length, and exposure duration. Absent any guide corrections (manual, auto, or PEC), the image will drift over time. It will drift in RA, DEC and the whole field will rotate. The longer any one of those three error sources is, the more drift there is. Autoguiding takes care of RA and DEC, but does not counteract field rotation.
So, looking at the alignment corrections for each frame of your stack, ideally you would see very low values for rotating each frame and a low value when comapring the first frame shot to the last.
How low is "very low"? That depends on the number of pixels in your sensor array. For a DSLR or Star Shoot Pro, I would think 1 degree might be pushing it. Quick calculation: 1.5 degree rotation moves the image .6 pixels at the extreme left or right edge of the frame.
You could probably see the field rotation with your eyes by shooting a short frame (so you have round stars), waiting for a span of time equal to your desired exposure length (say 15 minutes) and shoot another short frame. Now load each of these in a separate layer in a photo editor (PhotoShop or GIMP for example) and try to manually align them in the x-y direction only.
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Jeffrey Sugden]
#2762947 - 11/21/08 11:02 AM
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I was using DSS for stacking. It does a very nice job aligning. I am at work right now and will not be able to post data till tonight.
I can use Nebulosity and stack without alignment and upload the image so you can see star trails and see how much drift. I can stack without alignment between two 10 minutes frames and first and last frames. Do you have suggestion on what I should do so you can look at the drift and determine whether it's PA or flexure issue?
Peter
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Jeffrey Sugden
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 05/04/05
Loc: Akron, OH
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2763017 - 11/21/08 11:54 AM
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One clarification. Do that experiment without autoguiding. That removes differential flexure as a variable from the experiment.
If there is no significant field rotation, you will be able to adjust the two frames in x-y. You probably will not get a perfect fit even without field rotation (star images overlap). If there is significant field rotation, I would expect you could not even make the stars close to aligned (star images overlapping). If you can not manually align, then I think your prime suspect is PA error.
With your current data, we can not rule out differential flexure, since you were autoguiding.
I know it's difficult with so many variables. The key is to try to obtain some images while isolating the variables.
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Jeffrey Sugden
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 05/04/05
Loc: Akron, OH
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2763055 - 11/21/08 12:15 PM
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Also, you mentioned difficulty in drift aligning when the mount is fully loaded. Here is what I did to make my EQ6 easier to adjust:
1. Take the head off the tripod. Sand the painted parts of mating surfaces of the tripod top and bottom of the head using 320 or 400 grit sandpaper. The paint is rough and it makes small adjustsments difficult. I just sanded the paint smooth. Lube the surfaces with white lithium grease. After doing this, with the central bolt loose, you will be able to rotate the head in azimuth with one fingertip! 2. Get some nylon washers at the local hardware, Lowes, or Home Depot. Put 1 pair above each lockwheel on the vertical bolt that attaches the head to the tripod. You could also use bearings there. The most improvement comes from sanding and lubing. 3. Don't make the central bolt real tight. 4. Get the Telescope Stability Systems Hypertune DVD. In it, there is a procedure to modify your mount to make it easier to adjust the mount in latitude. 5. I replaced my latitude adjustment bolts with stainless hex-head bolts. I now use a ratchet to adjust latitude. With the longer handle, it is easier to make small adjustments.
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Jeffrey Sugden]
#2763114 - 11/21/08 12:42 PM
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Concerning your problem with the altitude adjustement bolts on the EQ6 or Atlas (being too tight), you can get some much better adjustement bolts from this company (they ship internationally at a reasonable price):
http://www.axio35.dsl.pipex.com/astrodev/Synta%20cables.htm
Atlas replacement adjustement bolts thread
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rmollise
Postmaster
   
Reged: 07/06/07
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2763374 - 11/21/08 03:24 PM
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Uncle Rod,
Yes, I am imaging at F/10. I already tried f/6.3 focal reducer but I get huge vignetting probably because I have to use about 4" extension in order to prevent from the camera to hit the JMI Motofocus. The diameter of StarShoot Pro CCD camera is huge. The reducer was connected to the rear cell first, then 4" extension and then the camera. I can't yet figured out how to mount the reducer between the 4" extension and the camera. Will it work better if the reducer is mounted right in front of the camera?
Peter
EDIT: Please define "East heavy". Does it mean when counter weight shaft is at horizontal and pointing east and counter weight end is heavier than the scopes?
Yep. However, the best setup, the proper spacing, is still reducer, prime focus adapter, camera (I don't like to use them dadgummed 1.25-inch nosepieces; way too much change o' somethin' slippin). If I had to choose between a moto-focus thing-a-my-bobby and the 6.3 I'd dern shore choose the 6.3. Tryin' to get well guided images at f/10 with a C11 is NOT for the faint of heart. 
East heavy means that with the scope on the east side of the mount the OTA wants to sink slightly to the east. With the scope on the west side, the counterweights want to sink slightly to the east. The idea is that you want the drive gears to PULL THE SCOPE ALONG.
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rmollise
Postmaster
   
Reged: 07/06/07
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2763380 - 11/21/08 03:31 PM
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This was my original target before I started having problems. Later that night I imaged M1 as shown earlier in this thread.
NGC891 C-11 at F/10, 2800mm F/L 2 frames of 15 minutes each 1 frame of 10 minutes
Imagine what this would look like if I had image it all night with 15 minutes (or longer) each frame!!!! If I only knew exactly the issue I am having. 
Peter
This is a darned good image considering the polar alignment might be iffy, all that f/l, and relatively long integrations. Frankly, I would not go kooky trying to do longer integrations. 5 - 10 minutes is long enough. Just get plenty o' them.
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rmollise
Postmaster
   
Reged: 07/06/07
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2763388 - 11/21/08 03:33 PM
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I saw this in Cats & Casses thread about a pretty cool Off Axis Guider:
http://www.taurus-tech.com/tracker.htm
I read several reviews via Google and it received pretty high marks. I have read many people hates OAG but this is a really cool gadget.
OAG could eliminate the need to use guide scope mounted on main scope and save weight and possible greatly reducing flexure.
Peter
I would strongly suggest you go the drift alignment/reducer-corrector route first and see if that works for you. Believe you me, using an OAG is NOT fun. Any OAG. Who invented the things, Church Lady? "Hmmm....let's see...could it maybe...be...SATAN?!"
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: rmollise]
#2763499 - 11/21/08 04:24 PM
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Uncle Rod,
Thanks for the suggestions.
I thought if the object I want to image is dim, I need to increase the exposure for each frame. I also thought stacking more frames simply increases signal to noise ratio, not necessarily make the object brighter. That's why I thought I needed to expose NGC891 a little longer for each frame. I can't even see NGC891 with my naked eye using eyepieces. Probably because of some light pollution from casinos in Reno. I had to expose about 100 seconds just to barely see if my Atlas GOTO mount found it and it did! It was almost dead center. Then it took me about 10 to 15 minutes to figure out which directional buttons to use to center it.
I think I will sell the JMI Motofocus and get Moonlight focuser with focal reducer adapter and motor so that the focal reducer is at optimal distance from the camera and closer to rear cell of C-11.
Peter
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Nate B.
sage
Reged: 03/08/07
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2763604 - 11/21/08 05:42 PM
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Not to be argumentative but I just want to bring back the mirror flop issue. My friend that just dealt with the problem showed me image progressions as he imaged from ~45 degrees up to the meridian and his stars got progressively worse and peaked as he approached the meridian. Theoretically, I think it makes more sense that the mirror slowly shifts position rather than getting to the meridian and then completely/suddenly shifting all at once. As a side note, all his imaging is with a 6.3 reducer.
I know some other more experienced people here have stated that your problem probably isn't mirror flop and considering that my experience is more 2nd hand I'll defer to them but I think when all else fails you can't completely rule mirror flop out.
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David Pavlich
Transmographied
   
Reged: 05/18/05
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Nate B.]
#2764360 - 11/22/08 09:15 AM
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Not to be argumentative but I just want to bring back the mirror flop issue. My friend that just dealt with the problem showed me image progressions as he imaged from ~45 degrees up to the meridian and his stars got progressively worse and peaked as he approached the meridian. Theoretically, I think it makes more sense that the mirror slowly shifts position rather than getting to the meridian and then completely/suddenly shifting all at once. As a side note, all his imaging is with a 6.3 reducer.
I know some other more experienced people here have stated that your problem probably isn't mirror flop and considering that my experience is more 2nd hand I'll defer to them but I think when all else fails you can't completely rule mirror flop out.
I'm going by my grand total of 3 images taken with a C11 and never noticed any degredation of the images as the evening wore on. All were shot on one side of the meridian. The C11 had no form of mirror stabilization. Certainly, not enough imaging time to be conclusive, but something to think about.
I still put most problems with star trailing to polar alignment and flex. Another possibility is that a guider can be set wrong causing it to "chase" bad seeing, but if the stars are wobbling that badly, it's time to put an eyepiece in and view and leave the camera for another night.
David
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: David Pavlich]
#2764520 - 11/22/08 11:18 AM
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I think I may have found the problem. I have owned the C-11 for 3.5 months. Upon closer inspection, I noticed a small DENT on the aluminum tube at the very front. Looking at the corrector, the dent is at about 2 o'clock position. The dent is deep enough that I can almost stick my pinky finger in between the tube and front outer cast aluminum ring. The dent is about 1 to 1.5 inches diameter.
I will return the OTA back to either Woodland Hills Telescope where I bought it or to Celestron for a repair or replacement. The OTA is covered by two year warranty.
The dent may be the source of the flexure issue. I never noticed the dent until now. There is no way I caused it because I never dropped it or hit it against anything while transporting.
Peter
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Nate B.
sage
Reged: 03/08/07
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2764586 - 11/22/08 11:52 AM
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Peter,
Glad you're covered by the warranty. I hope your next scope doesn't give you trouble.
David, yes, I agree that usually it's not mirror flop that accounts for most of the problems when imaging at long focal lengths. I think a good course of action is to try and eliminate all other problems before butching the scope and installing mirror locks.
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rmollise
Postmaster
   
Reged: 07/06/07
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2764667 - 11/22/08 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Uncle Rod,
Thanks for the suggestions.
I thought if the object I want to image is dim, I need to increase the exposure for each frame. I also thought stacking more frames simply increases signal to noise ratio, not necessarily make the object brighter. That's why I thought I needed to expose NGC891 a little longer for each frame. I can't even see NGC891 with my naked eye using eyepieces. Probably because of some light pollution from casinos in Reno. I had to expose about 100 seconds just to barely see if my Atlas GOTO mount found it and it did! It was almost dead center. Then it took me about 10 to 15 minutes to figure out which directional buttons to use to center it.
I think I will sell the JMI Motofocus and get Moonlight focuser with focal reducer adapter and motor so that the focal reducer is at optimal distance from the camera and closer to rear cell of C-11.
Peter
No. Stacking frames reduces the noise. To a certain point, longer integrations are good, but beyond 5 - 10 minutes, you are just making life more difficult for yourself.
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freestar8n
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/12/07
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Re: Atlas EQ-G, imaging C-11, 80mm ST, PHD Guiding
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#2765959 - 11/23/08 10:47 AM
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Hi Peter-
I guide a c11 on cge at f/10 all the time, but I use OAG. The image scale at f/10 is very unforgiving, and the slightest form of differential movement will show. You describe smoothly moving stars from frame to frame, and that is exactly what I would expect using a guidescope with SCT at that image scale. Although the mirror may not "shift" or "flop", it is mounted with some compliance that can change slowly on the tiny scale needed to show drift at that image scale.
Here is an image at f/10 with c11 based on 15m subs:
http://www.astrogeeks.com/Bliss/MetaGuide/images/Pacman.html
The steps I take to achieve this with a cge are:
1) Use OAG, which has no differential movement issues, reduces weight, and allows guiding at 1:1 image scale with improved centroid accuracy
2) Polar align well and have active guiding in dec.
3) Have an angle index on the OAG and use a field of view indicator to pre-select guidestars so you don't hunt for them.
4) I guide with video and MetaGuide using corrections every 1 second with low latency.
It sounds like you are motivated to do well at f/10. This does have challenges associated, but you can take steps to do well. These are the steps I have taken and the results I get. Note that there is another image on that page with focal reducer, and it is nice but has slightly lower resolution. There are other images on the page with a similar setup.
Either way - I doubt a dent has anything to do with what you see.
Frank
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