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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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BobH
sage
*****

Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Why an EQ?
      #2774721 - 11/28/08 08:59 AM

I'm still agonizing over which mount to get for my forthcoming refractor.

Initially, I just assumed it should be an equitorial because most of the photos I see of refractors have them mounted on an EQ. But, the more reserach I do, the more of a pain these eqs seem to be. Balance and stability; meridian tracking; polar alignment (rough or otherwise); change in balance and apparent motion when shifting from east to west configuration, etc. Seems like everytime I read more about the eqs, I find another little glitch that needs to be dealt with.

I'm a spoiled newbee with an LX 200 GPS GOTO on alt-az. To set up, I just get the tripod level, mount the scope, turn it on and go for a beer. By the time I get back, the scope has downloaded time, date, and location, found north, level, and tilt, and is pointing toward the first aligment star.

GOTO and visual tracking performance are exceptional (to me) and the mount is rock solid with no noticable movement while focusing.

So, I ask, is there an eq mount that convenient?

Assuming one is not going to do AP, what would be the advantage of an eq over alt-za?

Thanks,


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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/09/06

Loc: Western CO
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2774802 - 11/28/08 09:55 AM

For imaging with exposures longer than a few seconds, an alt/az mount means you'll need to add a field rotator to the scope.

Could you assemble a system consisting of alt/az mount + field rotator + guider + software? Sure. Would it work reliably in the real world? I doubt it. There is a reason why almost all refractors end up on a EQ mount.


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Applal
sage


Reged: 01/23/06

Loc: Appleton, WI
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: GJJim]
      #2774821 - 11/28/08 10:11 AM

Assuming one is not going to do AP, there is NO advantage for you to use an EQ over what you have... you have a perfect mount for your needs and uses. Just enjoy the sky (and the beer!)



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watcher
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/21/07

Loc: St. Louis, MO
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: GJJim]
      #2774825 - 11/28/08 10:15 AM

If a mount can handle the refractor, (length and weight), an EQ won't have any advantage over an Alt-Az, for visual. Personally, I don't find an EQ difficult to setup.It's a process that becomes easier the more you do it. Kinda like a child learning to tie his shoes.

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hudson_yak
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/15/07

Loc: Hyde Park, NY, USA
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: watcher]
      #2774850 - 11/28/08 10:33 AM

I'm not much into GoTo but I won't be without motorized tracking, for planets anyway. I've tried manual tracking and motorized is better. Well worth the minimal increase in setup time. It's also good if you want to offer a look to someone else.

Another advantage is an eq mount allows me to engage in one of my favorite pursuits, finding planets in the late afternoon sky before you can see them naked-eye. The manual eq setting circles are what you want for this.

Besides, there's just a certain rightness to using an equatorial mount for astronomy.

Mike


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Jared
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2774857 - 11/28/08 10:39 AM

Most of the disadvantages you mention only come to the forefront when imaging. Shifting balance and meridian flip are not going to be problems for a visual observer, for example. GEM's have become the standard for refractors primarily because of their flexibility--able to handle a range of optical tubes--and because a fork mount like the one on your LX200 can not handle longer OTA's since there isn't room for "swing through.". However, you could consider something like the iOptron mounts if you want toto in an alt-az configuration.
Quote:

I'm still agonizing over which mount to get for my forthcoming refractor.

Initially, I just assumed it should be an equitorial because most of the photos I see of refractors have them mounted on an EQ. But, the more reserach I do, the more of a pain these eqs seem to be. Balance and stability; meridian tracking; polar alignment (rough or otherwise); change in balance and apparent motion when shifting from east to west configuration, etc. Seems like everytime I read more about the eqs, I find another little glitch that needs to be dealt with.

I'm a spoiled newbee with an LX 200 GPS GOTO on alt-az. To set up, I just get the tripod level, mount the scope, turn it on and go for a beer. By the time I get back, the scope has downloaded time, date, and location, found north, level, and tilt, and is pointing toward the first aligment star.

GOTO and visual tracking performance are exceptional (to me) and the mount is rock solid with no noticable movement while focusing.

So, I ask, is there an eq mount that convenient?

Assuming one is not going to do AP, what would be the advantage of an eq over alt-za?

Thanks,




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DeanS
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: hudson_yak]
      #2774858 - 11/28/08 10:40 AM

Look at the Disc Mounts if you are just doing visual observing. They look very well made and stable.

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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Vixen Optics
*****

Reged: 06/12/02

Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2774895 - 11/28/08 11:11 AM

Bob,

Maybe I can help. What is it you're trying to do? If you're happy with your scope, then what's the issue?


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Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2774935 - 11/28/08 11:28 AM

Quote:

I'm still agonizing over which mount to get for my forthcoming refractor.

Initially, I just assumed it should be an equitorial because most of the photos I see of refractors have them mounted on an EQ. But, the more reserach I do, the more of a pain these eqs seem to be. Balance and stability; meridian tracking; polar alignment (rough or otherwise); change in balance and apparent motion when shifting from east to west configuration, etc. Seems like everytime I read more about the eqs, I find another little glitch that needs to be dealt with.

I'm a spoiled newbee with an LX 200 GPS GOTO on alt-az. To set up, I just get the tripod level, mount the scope, turn it on and go for a beer. By the time I get back, the scope has downloaded time, date, and location, found north, level, and tilt, and is pointing toward the first aligment star.

GOTO and visual tracking performance are exceptional (to me) and the mount is rock solid with no noticable movement while focusing.

So, I ask, is there an eq mount that convenient?

Assuming one is not going to do AP, what would be the advantage of an eq over alt-za?

Thanks,




It's largely personal preference. In my mind, the biggest advantages of the eq mount are in tracking and star hopping. I know you have a driven goto mount. And not to turn this into a goto thread, but let me say that they do fail (frequently judging from the public sessions I attend), leaving the observer to basic star hopping (assuming they know how, and there mount is actually operable without goto). With an eq mount, north is always north, east is east, etc. With an alt-az mount, up-down-right-left only corresponds with north-south-east-west when the scope points at the zenith. The farther away one moves from that point, the less scope motions correspond to chart directions.


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letimotif
No Complaints
*****

Reged: 05/20/07

Loc: Actually, right here.
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #2774972 - 11/28/08 11:47 AM

Hey Bob,

Ioptron makes a nice series of AA mounts, and their Mini-Tower has gotten some great reviews. I think there's even a review in our forum under mounts.

I've been looking at an AA for my refractors because I don't see myself doing any imaging anytime in the near future, and--for me--the challenge of an EQ mount is the odd positions in which it sometimes places the EP for viewing. Stand up sometimes, sit down sometimes, even with a chair it can be a problem.


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Doug76
Long Achro Junkie
*****

Reged: 12/05/07

Loc: Refractor Heaven
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Applal]
      #2774992 - 11/28/08 12:04 PM

Quote:

Assuming one is not going to do AP, there is NO advantage for you to use an EQ over what you have.




Agreed. I like EQ mounts, but not for Newtonian Reflectors. The eyepiece can and does wind up in some very awkward positions to view from. As was said, if your not doing AP with it, leave the reflector on an Alt-Az mount.


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Eddgie
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2775143 - 11/28/08 01:42 PM

You know Bob, these things can be as simple or as complex as you make them.

You did not really say what kind of refractor you were going to get, or what your intended purpose was.

If the scope is small and you are a purely visual observer, there are a number of simple Alt-az mounts on the market that will do fine.

On the other hand, a GOOD alt-az mount for a larger refractor can become VERY expensive, and often, you STILL need to resort to counterweigts to keep it balanced. So, if you are going to have to manage counterweights anyway, the difference between the Alt-az and the GEM are not so great in terms of setting up.

A GEM mount doesn't NEED to be complicated to use.. You can buy a basic GEM (CG5) for LESS than a decent quality Alt-az mount and get the benefit of slow motion controls and single control tracking.. You don't need to accuratly align a GEM to get the benefit of the design. If you just plop it down and do a rough alignment, you can easily keep a target centered with just the RA slow motion control. YOu now don't have to worry about clutches and center of gravity shift when changing from big eyepieces to small ones.

And for only a LITTLE more money, you can get a Go-to GEM (used LXD55s sell for less that $250). This way EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE the Go-to, you STILL get tracking and electronic slow motion.. This helps you prevent touching the telescope so that when viewing at high powers you aren't always waiting for the telescope to settle every time you touch it to re-center your target. And you get the benefit of multile slew rates for times when you wish to just sweep the sky. I use my 6" Refractor on a giant GEM, and half the time I use it, mostly I have a very low power eyepiece and I am sweeping.. The GEM lets me make very controlled sweeps.. I sweep about 30 degrees of declination, then move the scope a couple of minutes in RA, then make another long sweep. None of this requires precise alignment or anything.

And of course if you get the Go-to, it COMES with the equivilent of Digital Setting Circles BUILT IN! If you add these to an Alt-az, you will spend MORE ON THE EQUIPMENT to upgrade an Alt-az than you would spend just BUYING a GEM mount.

And of course there is Go-To.. When I use my big refractor for Double Stars, I can do 20 in an hour. I don't have to star hop or hunt and peck around the sky.. I plug in the coordinates and the scope goes to the target.

So, You can still get great value out of a GEM mount even if it is not Go-to.

All that being said? If you don't want to MESS with it, then that is an entirely different issue. Just buy the best Alt-az you can afford and be done with it.

Good luck with the decision.


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BobH
sage
*****

Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #2775582 - 11/28/08 06:53 PM

The new mount, GEM or otherwise, is for an SV115ST that I have on order.

I want GOTO for regular star gazing because I'm lazy, but a good set up for star hopping because, #1 I need to learn to do it, and #2 I want to do the Messier thing.

I want the capability to eventually do some AP.

On top of all that, I want a good, solid setup, that doesn't bounce all around, or at least settles down quickly when I focus.

Finally, a good-looking blond to hand me the eyepices.
Ok, forget the blond.

Bob


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2775911 - 11/28/08 10:47 PM

Much simpler for automated tracking (one axis rather than two are in motion). With an EQ only a sidereal rate drive on the RA axis is needed. To track with an alt-az requires movements in both axes. Besides, with a little practice, EQ mounts are really easy to set up and use. All that polar aligning, balancing and other set-up stuff you dread takes about 5-7 minutes for visual use.

Regards,

Jim


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Rusty
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/06/03

Loc: Brooker, FL
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2775958 - 11/28/08 11:20 PM

Quote:

I want GOTO for regular star gazing because I'm lazy, but a good set up for star hopping because, #1 I need to learn to do it, and #2 I want to do the Messier thing.

I want the capability to eventually do some AP.

Bob




You've nailed down the mount - unless all the AP you'd want to do is solar system, an EQ mount is the choice.


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BobH
sage
*****

Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: hudson_yak]
      #2776179 - 11/29/08 05:43 AM

Quote:



Another advantage is an eq mount allows me to engage in one of my favorite pursuits, finding planets in the late afternoon sky before you can see them naked-eye. The manual eq setting circles are what you want for this.

Besides, there's just a certain rightness to using an equatorial mount for astronomy.

Mike





Mike,

Of all the great advice I've gotten here, your comment hits the nail on the head...the certain rightness about having a refracter on a GEM.

But, I have a questopn for you. If you set up in late afternoon, as I frequently do, you can't see Polaris. How do you align?

Thanks,

Bob


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hudson_yak
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/15/07

Loc: Hyde Park, NY, USA
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2776337 - 11/29/08 09:13 AM

Quote:

But, I have a questopn for you. If you set up in late afternoon, as I frequently do, you can't see Polaris. How do you align?




I'm on fairly level ground so the latitude setting will be in the ballpark and since this neighborhood is built on a E-W N-S grid (close, anyway) pointing the tripod roughly north isn't too hard.

Then use a planetarium program to find local sidereal time (what the RA is straight up) and set the RA circle so it indicates that when the scope is pointing straight up. If you have a motor drive and driven RA circle you can switch it on though if you work fast this isn't really necessary. My mount is marked so that the Dec circle can be set correctly as well.

Then it's just a matter of looking up the coords for Juputer or Venus, pushing the scope to indicate one and seeing if it's in a widefield eyepiece. My widest gives me a 2.5 degree field and frequently the target is in there somewhere. You also need to have your focus tube marked so the scope will be roughly in focus to start with.

Right now, this is a piece of cake, with Venus and Jupiter so close you can probably find Venus naked-eye before finding Jupiter in the scope. Takes some of the fun out of it...

Mike


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Bob Griffiths
Getting Grouchy
*****

Reged: 10/10/05

Loc: Frederick Maryland
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2776360 - 11/29/08 09:31 AM

Bob:

I own 2 fork mounted SCTS and 2 refractors on Gems...I am seriously thinking of buying a Mini Tower and replace both Gem mounts... My reason is that the Gems are heavier, more difficult for me to lug outside and set up...and also they are not nearly as comfortable for "me" to use...

BUT I DO NOT IMAGE and have absolutely no desire to image..for my use I can set up one of the Gems at high noon and place everything in the correct position so that when it gets dark I have no problem tracking

For me the comfort using a Alt/Azm mount is my main reason for converting and the Mini Tower is not that more expensive then a good manual alt/azm mount..

Bob G


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Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #2776659 - 11/29/08 01:18 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

Quote:

A GEM mount doesn't NEED to be complicated to use.. You can buy a basic GEM (CG5) for LESS than a decent quality Alt-az mount and get the benefit of slow motion controls and single control tracking.. You don't need to accuratly align a GEM to get the benefit of the design. If you just plop it down and do a rough alignment, you can easily keep a target centered with just the RA slow motion control. YOu now don't have to worry about clutches and center of gravity shift when changing from big eyepieces to small ones.




Not at all! I picked up an old Super Polaris on Astromart, then removed and sold the drive motors and Vixen SkySensor (a 1st generation GOTO system about the size of a shoebox). After the sale I have an excellent smooth mount with slo-mo tracking for about $150. Still light enough to carry in one piece from basement to yard.


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Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2776672 - 11/29/08 01:26 PM

Quote:

Of all the great advice I've gotten here, your comment hits the nail on the head...the certain rightness about having a refracter on a GEM.

But, I have a questopn for you. If you set up in late afternoon, as I frequently do, you can't see Polaris. How do you align?




It is a myth that a GEM will not work if not aligned on the north pole. Basically, you just guess the direction of north. For visual use this is just fine. Worst case is that every now and again you have to turn the declination slow motion knob a bit. At this point, the mount is functioning as a two-axis mount, just like an alt-az. If it bothers you, adjust the mount in azimuth to get it closer to true north, then the adjustments in declination become smaller and less frequent.

If you are a perfectionist and need it dead-on you can look up the star-drift alignment method. Once you have it, make a small mark on the ground or wall, then next time align to that.


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BobH
sage
*****

Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #2776887 - 11/29/08 03:51 PM

Well, my apologies to the alt-az fans, and thanks to everyone who pitched in their 2 cents to help a newbee....I've decided to start with a GEM, just don't know which one yet, and when the budget allows, maybe an alt-az as a backup.

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Mike Holland
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/22/06

Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #2778544 - 11/30/08 04:27 PM

Quote:

...

If you are a perfectionist and need it dead-on you can look up the star-drift alignment method. Once you have it, make a small mark on the ground or wall, then next time align to that.




Are many people using this method? I can't see Polaris from where I observe, and don't need precise alignment since I'm strictly visual. I've often wondered if getting the alignment once and then marking the spots for the tripod's feet would work well. Thanks.

Mike


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Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Mike Holland]
      #2778924 - 11/30/08 07:17 PM

Star drift is mainly used by imagers for very precise alignment. Personally, I just rough it in, even when I have a good view of Polaris. But if you were a perfectionist ....

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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/09/06

Loc: Western CO
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #2779824 - 12/01/08 09:54 AM

Quote:

Star drift is mainly used by imagers for very precise alignment.




Nothing wrong with the drift method, but many of the newer systems use software for fine polar alignment. Programs like TPoint create a model that takes into account flexure of the mount and pier as the scope looks in different directions, corrects for slight errors between the optical axis of the scope and the mount, and even the small pole offset caused by refraction in the atmosphere. So instead of hours of tedious drift measurements on a star, it's possible to get near perfect polar alignment in less than half an hour.


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Kim Miau
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/17/06

Loc: Malaysia
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #2942720 - 02/22/09 11:34 AM

Quote:

It's largely personal preference. In my mind, the biggest advantages of the eq mount are in tracking and star hopping. I know you have a driven goto mount. And not to turn this into a goto thread, but let me say that they do fail (frequently judging from the public sessions I attend), leaving the observer to basic star hopping (assuming they know how, and there mount is actually operable without goto). With an eq mount, north is always north, east is east, etc. With an alt-az mount, up-down-right-left only corresponds with north-south-east-west when the scope points at the zenith. The farther away one moves from that point, the less scope motions correspond to chart directions.



Yeah, the characteristic of the GEM that corresponds to the celestial coordination tempted me to get it. In my opinion, this make thing easier to learn about the sky.

Frankly speaking, I still don't have a clear idea where are north, south, east and west when I look at the sky. Well, I know the terrestial direction but not the celestial's. I guess the problem is that I relied on the Alt-Az GOTO too much. It could be that I never really look into it too. :P


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groz
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/14/07

Loc: Campbell River, BC
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: Kim Miau]
      #2942934 - 02/22/09 01:27 PM

Ok, lots of info, let me add my _first hand_ experience. First, if you want to image, and do long exposures, some sort of polar aligned mount is essential, be-it a fork on a wedge, some variant of a split ring, a dob on a platform, or something else mounted on an eq mount. The eq mount is by far the most cost effective way to get a polar aligned mount, simply because they are mass produced, and you benefit from the economies of production scale.

Now, on the issue of 'perfect polar alignment'. We read a lot about it in various imaging forums, but, there's a huge discrepancy in what folks consider 'perfect' and what is 'good enough', and what is intolerable. If you are shooting 30 to 60 minute exposures on film, then, 'good enough' is within a couple arcseconds of 'dead on'. On the other hand, if you are shooting 1 minute exposures using a large pixel camera on a short focal length telescope, then 'good enough' is probably within 15 arcminutes of the true ncp. For the film guys, this level of error on the polar access is unacceptable.

I'm shooting with a canon 350, attached to an 8 inch SCT at prime focus, which results in a pixel scale on the order of 0.62 arcseconds per pixel. I polar align my EQ6 by 'lookiing thru the polar scope', takes me about 2 minutes usually, I have a good view of polaris from here. My polar scope is aligned pretty good, and, with my setup, that alignment is 'good enough' to do 5 minute exposures. I guide my system using a QHY5 in an ST80. The guiding is NOT to correct for polar alignment, but, to correct for periodic error in the worm drive system. I'm shooting at a long focal length, with a small pixel camera, so, periodic error is a big source of smear on my shots, with 11 arcseconds of periodic error, that translates to 18 pixels of smear over a full worm rotation, so guiding out that error is essential. A lot of folks starting out make the mistake of thinking the guider is a 'quick fix' for polar alignment errors, but it's not. At the same time, if you are going to shoot at a pixel resolution much smaller than the PE of the mount you purchase, you will need to guide it on longer exposures. No amount of fussing with setup, balancing, and all the other stuff we read about, can fix the PE on a mass produced mount. Sure, there are folks out there that will charge you a big chunk of money to 'hypertune' it, but, even if you do that, plan on spending a few bucks on a guider system to work PE out of your mount eventually. A $400 guide system sitting atop a $1000 mount will make that mount track as good as, or better than, the $12,000 mount. Been there, done that, got that t-shirt here to prove it.

By all accounts, my setup would be considered 'demanding' on the polar alignment, and, when I set the mount up the first time, it was a bit overwhelming to get it all set. I've had a bit of practise since then, and, today, it takes me about 5 minutes from 'turn on the power' to 'polar aligned good enough'. Here's what I do. Power up the system with the gps plugged into the hand controller, then, head off to refill the coffee. From a cold start, the gps usually takes anywhere from 1 to 3 minutes to get 'locked in'. Once the gps has a fix, hit enter on the hand paddle a couple of times, and it tells me the correct position for polaris in the polar scope. Open up the polar scope, take a peek, it's usually very close (I set up in the same location every time), make some minor adjustments, then cap off the polar scope again. Normally takes about a minute to do the adjustments.

BUT, on your first time out with the eq, trying to align in the polar scope, will be VERY frustrating. Just getting polaris into the field of view, and recognizing it is indeed polaris, well, that was a huge obstacle for us early on. _If_ I had a few years of 'using a finderscope' under my belt, it probably would have been a non issue.

Some of the mounts have a 'helper' routine for polar alignment in the hand controller, run an alignment, hc calculates the polar alignment error, then gives some indication of how to adjust the mount to remove that error. That's useful, but, I wouldn't make the decision on which mount over that feature alone, simply because I know for a fact that the feature does not exist in my hc firmware today, but it will in the next 3 months. I've been told this by the person responsible for the firmware development on that system. Even so, we have no problem getting polar alignment 'good enough' without it, but I am looking forward to an easier way to do more accurate alignment.

But, the bottom line of my experience with all this, getting the eq mount polar aligned 'good enough' for my photography setup was a daunting task 2 years ago. Today, it's just 5 minutes of the setup process, not difficult at all. I dont normally fuss with drift align, because my polar scope gets me 'close enough' it's not necessary. I will say one more thing about the polar scope, we have 3 mounts, 2 have the 'illuminated' polar scope (EQ6-Pro and HEQ5-Pro), while the third (NEQ3) is not illuminated with the little red led. The lack of illumination on the neq3 makes the polar scope borderline useless in the dark, you cannot see the reticle, and end up fussing with red flashlights to try get a view of the reticle for polars placement. So, in that respect, my opinion says, there are two types of polar scopes in eq mounts, those that are illuminated, and, those that are useless. Your mileage may vary some, but, that's my opinion, non illuminated polar scope is only _marginally_ more useful than 'no polar scope'. And that's based on my experience with the 3 we have.

The other issue you seem perplexed about, is balance. Again, for balance, I have probably the 'worst case' setup, 8 inch sct mounted side by side with the ST80 used to guide it, in a dual saddle adapter. I end up balancing by moving counterwieghts in one plane, sliding the dual saddle adapter in another plane, and shifting telescopes forward and aft in the third plane. It's a process that takes about two minutes, ie, not at all difficult. But, eyepiece location comes hand in hand with 'complex balancing'. If you look at 1 or 2 arm fork systems, they achieve balance by using offsets on the fork arms and placing the scope at the center of gravity for the system as a whole. Point my balanced system 'strait up', and i do get an awkward eyepiece position, but, at least I can look in that direction. One or two arm forks, cannot point strait up with a refractor, the eyepiece end bumps into the supporting tripod. Now, use an alt/az that has an offset mount, and you can indeed point strait up, but, you get the awkward eyepiece position, and you either get counterwieghts to deal with, or, a system that addresses balance by 'ignoring it', ie just let the drive motors deal with the added load, there are no counterwieghts sticking out the other side to balance the scope. The ONLY reason fork systems dont have a reputation for 'awkwark eyepiece position' is that they cant point in the directions that give an awkward eyepiece position. When your refractor is pointed 'strait up', it doesn't really matter what kind of mount is holding it there, the eyepiece will still be 'strait down'. This is not a function of the type of mount holding the refractor, it's a function of 'where can my mount actually point'. There's a bunch of them that cannot point strait up.

So, after this long tirade, this much I can say, all from first hand expereience. If you want to look thru an eyepiece, then the alt/az mount is simple, and good. The fork arm variety means you wont be looking 'strait up' anytime soon. But, if taking photos is in your future, some sort of polar aligned mount is also in your future, the eq is the most common, and, the learning curve on it is not nearly as bad as one thinks after reading endless horror stories here on CN. Chris and I can start from scratch today, mount and telescopes all in cases just pulled out of the van at a remote location, assuming polaris is visible in the twilight, we can have both kits assembled, balanced, and polar aligned in roughly 10 minutes, with part of that time being 'wait for her to be finished with the gps'.

I will also admit, after we are set up and polar aligned, we spend another 10 minutes fussing with cables to get all the stuff needed for a photography session attached, powered, and running. But again, we have the 'worst case' scenario to deal with. Both kits have an eq mount supporting two scopes, one for shooting, one for guiding. Both use a dslr, so there's a cable for the camera, and a cable for the shutter release. There's another cable from the guide camera to the computer, and yet another one from the guide camera to the mount. We use motor focus, yet more cables. We live in a humid area, so, next we attach dew straps to both tubes. But even with all this added extra stuff, we can _still_ go from 'pile of things in cases and boxes' to 'full setup with side by side astrophotography kit', fully balanced, aligned, and ready to shoot, in 15 minutes if we are rushing, a little longer if we are taking our time and socializing with other folks along the way. There are lots of folks that confuse our 'fussing with cables', and consider it 'fussing with an eq setup', but that's not the case. It's fussing with our camera gear, we have a LOT of it attached to these systems.

The final bottom line, an eq mount is no more difficult than an alt/az mount. Think it thru, an alt/az mount is indeed, the same thing, except its very poorly polar aligned, somebody confused 'strait up' with 'the north celestial pole' when designing an alt/as mount. Later somebody else realized the error, and figured out that a wedge can fix the alignment problem. The real difference is, how flexible are they. Typical EQ mounts can point anywhere in the sky, and typical alt/az mounts are restricted in where they can point, and that is the real difference between them.


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BobH
sage
*****

Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2943107 - 02/22/09 02:58 PM

Just as a follow up, I did pick up a non-goto, entry level GEM.

After all my agonizing, I was amazed at how easy it is to polar align. I take pains to level the mount and sometimes use a compass to get roughly pointed toward polaris before dark. Nine time out of ten, once ole Polaris is visable, it's in the polar scope field of view. Takes about a minute after that to get it "semi-accurately" aligned.

It's great to know that if you find an object, then walk away for 15 or 20 minutes, when you come back to the scope all you have to do is turn the RA knob and, Bingo!, there's the object. Can't do that with an alt-az.

For a goto, I'm still debating, but probably going to go with an alt-az. For manual, I'm convinced GEM is the way to go.

Regards,

Bob


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astrokido
space wanderer
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Reged: 06/09/08

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: BobH]
      #2943163 - 02/22/09 03:27 PM

There's anoher advantage an EQ mount gives you in manual mode that no other mount does. Once it's polar aligned, the RA and DEC knobs will follow gridlines on charts with an equatorial grid. This makes it easy to get to any point in the sky. It helps to align with a recognized star first, then go to another object by knowing the difference in RA/DE to it.

Knowing the gear tooth counts for each axis, you can also use the turn of each knob for measuring arc movements. That why I love the 144/72 RA/DE teeth of my old Vixen Polaris, which provide 2.5° and 5.0° per turn of each knob respectively. That's usually good enough to get an object into a wide FOV, then narrow in with higher power EPs. It's simpler than it sounds, and gets really easy with an RA tracking motor.


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BobH
sage
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Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Re: Why an EQ? new [Re: astrokido]
      #2943328 - 02/22/09 05:19 PM

As a new "star hopper" I forgot to mention that advantage. Yes sir, turning a knob and having the scope follow the grid lines is a huge help. Your advice about calibrating the turn of a knob with a certain arc movement is something that I never thought of. That's another big help.

Thanks!


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