AlienRatDog
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/15/05
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: Roy M.]
#2901321 - 02/01/09 09:58 AM
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Just send it back, I wouldn't even try to repair it, you paid so much money for it, it should be running perfectly as it is new, just send it in and get another...make the dealer pay the shipping if possible...
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Lord Beowulf
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/13/08
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: rmollise]
#2901764 - 02/01/09 01:24 PM
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Have ya tried upgrading the firmware?
Yeah, that was the first thing I'd done when I received the replacement unit, as it was still the old firmware. What I don't know is if this was a NEW unit or just a refurb that still had the same problem someone else had returned it for.
Hey, and don't get me wrong; I LOVE the SkyScout for what it does, but having to pull batteries from it by removing a screw-on cover in order to reset it is a totally unacceptable issue to live with. And the fact that it EATS batteries, and just powering it on for the first satellite fix is enough to drop the battery indicator a notch or two is pretty sad. IF I can get one that works before the warranty expires, I plan to make an adapter that will let me power the unit off a Power Tank. Still not sure why it doesn't pull power from the scope through the USB when connected. That's a disappointing oversight on Celestron's part.
Ah well, guess it's time to let this thread get back to being about problems with the CGEM! 
Beo
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rmollise
Postmaster
Reged: 07/06/07
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: CHASLX200]
#2901832 - 02/01/09 02:03 PM
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They sure don't make mounts like they did in the 70's. All you did was plug in the RA drive and you were set.
Chas
Yep. Plug it in and the mount ran at sidereal rate. AND THAT WAS ALL! 
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Roy M.
super member
Reged: 01/31/06
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Re: Get your CGEM aligned yet?
[Re: mmagrunmo]
#2901916 - 02/01/09 02:57 PM
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As far as the "nuts and bolts" noise.... you mentioned removing CW and OTA. is it possible that what you were hearing was clutch knobs flopping or perhaps loose dovetail stuff???
Nexremote likes to play alone. Were you using the hand controller at all when using the nexremote? All kinds of funny stuff can happen when you get those two trying to talk to a mount at the same time.
I have a hunch you are only a setting, sequence, or question or two away from having THAT mount working perfectly. There are lots of people here who seem willing to help you do that.
I fully charged the PowerTank, used the cable that came with scope, fully screwed in the power connector. The scope turned on ok. I removed NexRemote and GPS out of the equation. When it started doing the non-stop slew, it had plenty of juice. The loose parts WERE inside the mount, *no doubt* about it. I heard the parts hitting the side of the mount encasing. I was doing all of this under meticoulous inspection. Even after doing a quick align (while the scope was still slewing erratically, I managed to go to utilities and do a factory reset, then power cycled. Same thing. I tried direct AC connection, same thing. I did this for completeness, since as soon as I heard the loose parts clinking inside, all bets were off.
The loose parts inside the mount and the locking/grinding noises are *not* a power supply issue. The scope is truly damaged. But I trully appreciate the feedback, I am sure persistence like this has solved many problems before. 
I have not heard from OPT yet, I guess I'll call tomorrow Monday.
CSs,
Roy
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Roy M.
super member
Reged: 01/31/06
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: AlienRatDog]
#2901919 - 02/01/09 02:59 PM
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Just send it back, I wouldn't even try to repair it, you paid so much money for it, it should be running perfectly as it is new, just send it in and get another...make the dealer pay the shipping if possible...
Alien, you crystallize my thoughts.
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Lord Beowulf
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/13/08
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: CHASLX200]
#2902174 - 02/01/09 05:17 PM
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They sure don't make mounts like they did in the 70's. All you did was plug in the RA drive and you were set.
Chas
Granted, goto mounts are more complicated with variable speed drives on both axes and a microncontroller, keyboard, and display, but that's really no excuse for the purely mechanical problems these mounts are having. I also understand having glitches in new designs, so I'm willing to cut them a little slack there (although I'm less understanding when I'm the one having to suffer because of it!). On the other hand, they've had plenty of time to address problems I see regularly reported related to cold temperature performance of the electronics, etc. I'd love to know if Celestron is fully aware of these problems and is trying/planning to address them or if they really don't know about them or worse yet don't care enough to fix them.
Beo
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Lord Beowulf
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/13/08
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
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Re: Get your CGEM aligned yet?
[Re: Roy M.]
#2902194 - 02/01/09 05:25 PM
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The grinding sounds you're describing sound much like mine did with its failed RA axis out of the box. I sent it back! Telescopes.com was great about the return and paid return shipping, etc.
Beo
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bseltzer
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/28/07
Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: CHASLX200]
#2902762 - 02/01/09 11:14 PM
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They sure don't make mounts like they did in the 70's. All you did was plug in the RA drive and you were set.
Chas
Yeah, except for the repeated trips to your health care provider as a result of lugging one of those '70's behemoths around the country side.
Been there, done that, got the "T" shirt... And I ain't goin' back ;->
Regards,
Bert
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BRisley
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Loc: SW Florida
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: bseltzer]
#2903712 - 02/02/09 02:00 PM
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Bert,
Back, who cares about their back? I had the counterweight from a 12.5" F6 Trekkerscope fall out of my van onto my foot back in the mid 80's! Luckily it was very loose sandy soil, or I would have broken it good for sure, and doing that in the middle of the everglades would not have been fun!
I used to travel regularly with the Trekkerscope mount and another GEM for a 12" f4 in my van and the only things taken off the mount were the scope and CW's. I used to manhandle those puppies myself. (My dad was a chiropractor, so I could always get an adjustment!  )
Wouldn't dream of that today, now my OT C-8 on a tripod or my SPC-8 are enough just to move out of the garage to observe! Boy, age sure deals you bad cards!
Brian
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bseltzer
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/28/07
Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: BRisley]
#2904100 - 02/02/09 05:01 PM
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Bert,
Back, who cares about their back? I had the counterweight from a 12.5" F6 Trekkerscope fall out of my van onto my foot back in the mid 80's! Luckily it was very loose sandy soil, or I would have broken it good for sure, and doing that in the middle of the everglades would not have been fun!
I used to travel regularly with the Trekkerscope mount and another GEM for a 12" f4 in my van and the only things taken off the mount were the scope and CW's. I used to manhandle those puppies myself. (My dad was a chiropractor, so I could always get an adjustment! )
Wouldn't dream of that today, now my OT C-8 on a tripod or my SPC-8 are enough just to move out of the garage to observe! Boy, age sure deals you bad cards!
Brian
Somebody once said, "Age is the price you pay for maturity".
I say it's a much over-rated and obscenely over priced product.
- Bert
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BRisley
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Loc: SW Florida
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: bseltzer]
#2904498 - 02/02/09 07:59 PM
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I agree!
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7331Peg
Sirius Observer
Reged: 09/01/08
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: rmollise]
#2905066 - 02/03/09 03:37 AM
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There's really no excuse for this kind of poor quality control in my opinion. When you pay $1300 plus dollars for a product that you can't see, touch or personally check out in advance, it seems to me there is an obligation on the part of the manufacturer to make sure it works. It doesn't take that much effort to test each product before it goes out the door. Meanwhile, the purchaser who waits for the product to arrive now has to ship it back and wait again.
Unfortunately, these days the companies with the worst quality control are frequently the largest. The small companies can't afford to lose customers due to this kind of thing, and most of them seem to care a whole more about their customer than the larger ones do.
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Roy M.
super member
Reged: 01/31/06
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: 7331Peg]
#2913202 - 02/07/09 10:59 AM
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I called Celestron and they were very responsive. They emailed me the shipping label so return is not costing a cent. They are sending a replacement. While I was the one that got the dud in the first production run, all I have heard from this mount are *GREAT* things. Remember this is a 1.4K mount for 40lb.
We have clear skies, no mount,
Roy
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Dave H.
sage
Reged: 02/29/08
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: AlienRatDog]
#2913388 - 02/07/09 12:54 PM
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Sorry to hear of your issues with the new mount, I would have been angry if my new CGEM showed up acting like that. Hope you can get it resolved quickly. I guess I was one of the lucky ones, my CGEM has acted as expected, SO FAR ANYWAY...
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: 7331Peg]
#2913392 - 02/07/09 12:56 PM
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"There's really no excuse for this kind of poor quality control in my opinion."
Sure there is. It's only a $1300 mount. A premium mount with similar features like the Mach 1 GTO would set you back about $6k. You want QC, you pay for it. Pretty simple. The CGEM sounds absolutely typical of early production runs of a new affordable mount. The Atlas EQ-G had plenty of problems on launch as did the Losmandy Gemini mounts. Were Celestron (or Synta or Losmandy) to invest in additional QC, the sticker price for that QC would hit your pocket-book. Heck, I've read about several dud Takahashi mounts and those are in the price range where I'd expect a little TLC.
Anyone who is an early adopter of anything assumes the risk that there will be glitches that will be worked out by later runs.
I have high hopes for the CGEM - an Atlas refresh with better firmware for $100 less. I am not, however, planning on moving from my Atlas to a CGEM for at least 6 months.
You'll notice that those "small companies" are selling the premium mounts. Part of the premium price is the extra labor they apply, including in the QC department. Do not buy a Chevy and expect a Bentley.
On the other hand, when you buy gear that's marketed and priced like a Bentley, but end up with a Chevy, that's when you've got a real problem. I've had a couple of these experiences and they are NOT pleasant.
Regards,
Jim
Edited by jrbarnett (02/07/09 12:59 PM)
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bseltzer
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/28/07
Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: jrbarnett]
#2913729 - 02/07/09 04:09 PM
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I hear the terms "QC", quality assurance, and the like thrown around a lot, but I wonder how many people realize what they really mean. Having been in charge of QC/QA for a medical blood gas laboratory for more years than I care to remember, I can tell you with some authority that these terms are purely statistical, and as such all they represent is a mathematical abstraction that gives you an idea of how likely it is that any given product is going to meet specific criteria.
Nobody's QC is 100%. Nobody - period.
Sure, more expensive products are (hopefully) held to tighter specifications and the acceptable probability factor is also (probably) set higher. Let's also not forget that companies like AP or MI or Parallax don't crank out thousands of mounts a year. So part of their higher price has more to do with the fact that they don't have the economies of scale that someone like Synta does than it does with QC efforts. The flip side of that is it's a whole lot easier to closely inspect each and every example of your product when you're only making a couple hundred of them a year.
But the bottom line is, there isn't a vendor out there that hasn't had at least one dud go out the door. Now all the statistics are pretty meaningless to the person who gets that one turkey, but the real measure of a vendor is how they deal with it when it (inevitably) happens.
Sounds like Celestron is reacting responsibly to this incident, so I'd be inclined to cut them some slack based on what I've heard here.
At least that's my story, and I'm sticking with it 
Regards,
Bert
Edited by bseltzer (02/07/09 04:14 PM)
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skyler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/16/06
Loc: TGPNW
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: bseltzer]
#2913971 - 02/07/09 06:54 PM
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The other big factor is what happens when an A1 QA'd product gets shipped out the door and goes through the riggers of FEDEX, UPS, and USPS. I have had equipment like a C11 destroyed or just recently an Mak Newt severely damaged in transit. The amount of rough handling impact energy imparted on hardware in shipment could easily result in the non-function or crippled condition when it arrives or even shortly after during use.
S
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7331Peg
Sirius Observer
Reged: 09/01/08
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: jrbarnett]
#2914652 - 02/08/09 03:07 AM
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I agree the CGEM can't be compared to an AstroPhysics mount, but $1300 is still a lot of money to spend for a product that has to go back to the shipper because it doesn't work properly. Considering the problems that existed with the first CGE mounts, and they are NOT cheap, you would think the CGEM would have been checked out more thoroughly to avoid a repetition of problems. If nothing else, there are certainly plenty of willing volunteers to beta test products like these in order to eliminate the problems. Meanwhile, potential purchasers are standing on the sidelines until they're sure the bugs have been worked out. That really isn't good for Celestron, either.
However, glad to hear that Celestron is dealing with the issue.
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EddWen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/26/08
Loc: Here or There
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: 7331Peg]
#2915018 - 02/08/09 11:02 AM
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"Nobody's QC is 100%. Nobody - period."
I was a partner in a company that makes life-support medical products. We did 100% inspection of the product with various inspectors checking all levels of function and performance. Every device made could only go out the door when signed and cosigned by responsible people. The result, very good Quality Control. Did every device work correctly when it reached the end-user - No.
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Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/14/07
Loc: Jefferson County, Colorado
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Re: My CGEM is bust ;(
[Re: EddWen]
#2915040 - 02/08/09 11:14 AM
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It seems to me the silver lining is getting to know your mount a bit better. I have found the scopes or mounts I remember, and love the most, are the ones I wrestled a bit with to get them to really perform. Looks like this wrestle will be a memory soon. Good luck with your CGEM.
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