Telescope Reviews: My CGEM is bust ;(

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Project Galileo
professor emeritus

Reged: 11/14/07

Loc: Jefferson County, Colorado

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: EddWen]
#2915041 - 02/08/09 11:14 AM

It seems to me the silver lining is getting to know your mount a bit better. I have found the scopes or mounts I remember, and love the most, are the ones I wrestled a bit with to get them to really perform. Looks like this wrestle will be a memory soon. Good luck with your CGEM.

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: 7331Peg]
#2915056 - 02/08/09 11:20 AM

Well, actually, even the CGE, compared to alternatives based on common specification, is pretty cheap. It's premium, QA'd peers are the A-P 900 and the Takahashi NJP/EM-400 mounts. These are much more expensive than the CGE (2x to 3x more). Remember the CGE is a 70# cap class mount. It's affordable buddy, the Losmandy G-11, often isn't perfect when it ships either, and in those cases you generally work on the Losmandy yourself. At least with the CGEM and CGE you can simply send it back and get a new one because Celestron is a volume producer.

Also beta testing and QC are two totally different things. My understanding is that this mount was widely beta tested. You make it sound as if no functional CGEM has shipped at all. This is simply not the case. There are good ones and sloppy ones. It also doesn't sound like there's one particular issue, but many different issues.

Beta testing will tell you if you have major design flaws, not whether when you ramp up volume production you'll have assembly glitches and similar production issues. It generally takes an auto maker 6 to 12 months to implement QC changes in a given car model. Cars are a heck of a lot more expensive than mounts, even cheap cars. Why would anyone expect an affordable mount maker to better much larger manufacturers of much more costly goods in terms of QC improvements?

Don't buy a first model year car and don't buy the first run of a new mount if you're worried about quality issues. Let others more willing to hassle with returns do the guinea pig testing for you.

Regards,

Jim

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rmollise
Postmaster

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: EddWen]
#2915387 - 02/08/09 01:44 PM

Quote:

"Nobody's QC is 100%. Nobody - period."

I was a partner in a company that makes life-support medical products. We did 100% inspection of the product with various inspectors checking all levels of function and performance. Every device made could only go out the door when signed and cosigned by responsible people. The result, very good Quality Control. Did every device work correctly when it reached the end-user - No.

I'm sure QA was 100% at Pantex, too.

Yep...for much else, 100% is not cost effective and unless there are real problems with the manufacturing process, doesn't really improve the results that much.

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WadeH237
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: 7331Peg]
#2916576 - 02/08/09 11:18 PM

Quote:

...$1300 is still a lot of money to spend for a product that has to go back to the shipper because it doesn't work properly.

I don't think that this statement is absolutely true.

For example, if I paid $1300 for a wrist watch, I would have a high expectation of quality. If, on the other hand, I paid $1300 for a car, I would positively expect to encounter problems.

As has been noted here, the CGEM is a value mount and is very low cost for its capability. In my opinion, its sibling the Atlas was a breakthrough at this price point.

If you want to buy a higher quality mount with a similar capacity, Takahasi and Astro-Physics would be happy to help you.

-Wade

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Lord Beowulf
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/13/08

Loc: Cedar Park, TX

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

new

[Re: WadeH237]
#2918691 - 02/09/09 10:44 PM

Guys,

To say that just because a mount is lower cost you shouldn't expect it to work doesn't make much sense. To use the automobile analogy, whether I'm buying a Pinto or a Cadillac, as a consumer I have an expectation of receiving a working product. The relative features and long term quality of different products has nothing to do with that expectation. Even if the lower end vehicle may be expected to squeak and rattle and start falling apart quickly, that's significantly different from not being able to drive it off the lot! And yes, on something as complicated as an automobile, one should not expect to have a totally perfect new vehicle, no matter the manufacturer or model of vehicle. That ranges from assembly issues through delivery issues. While there are some similarities, a mount is MUCH simpler than an automobile, so the likelihood of failure SHOULD be considerably less than that of an automobile. There are far fewer parts and far less complication. At the same time, the manufacturing process and QA procedures probably far less advanced than that for a typical automotive manufacturers. And while again it shouldn't be surprising that a new design would have bugs to be worked out, saying that anyone shouldn't EXPECT to receive a working product just because they didn't pay "enough" for it is pretty silly. That's like saying that a manufacturer is selling a product where they're telling themselves, "We're selling this so cheaply, no one will care if it works or not!" That's just utter nonsense.

At any rate, those, like myself, who were willing to give the CGEM a try and received a defective unit are perfectly justified in being disappointed. However, in my case I'm much more disappinted in my overall experience with Celestron (three bad SkyScouts, bad CGEM, and a bad solar filter, and very little concern shown by their customer service). Luckily the dealer I've used has a better attitude towards customer service. I can only hope they'll take steps to turn that around.

Beo

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7331Peg
Sirius Observer

Reged: 09/01/08

Loc: North coast of Oregon

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

new

[Re: Lord Beowulf]
#2918906 - 02/10/09 01:47 AM

I totally agree with the Beowulf comments. Regardless of where you fall on the affordability scale, when you spend hard-earned money for something, wait for it to become available and/or wait for its arrival at your door, you don't expect to open the box and find the product doesn't work. As an example, read the many posts on the problems with the alt-az mount Orion is selling - it sells for a lot less that the CGEM, but that doesn't justify continuing to ship it with serious problems. Orion is not doing itself a favor by continuing to offer it.
My comments aren't aimed directly at Celestron or Orion, but are a result of having been frustrated too many times with a product that doesn't perform at all or poorly right out of the box.
I'm amazed sometimes at what people are willing to tolerate.

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WadeH237
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

new

[Re: Lord Beowulf]
#2918909 - 02/10/09 01:59 AM

Beo,

In case it's not clear from my comments, I complete agree that you should get a working product, regardless of price. And actually, I cannot think of any scenario in which you'd end up out the cost of the mount without a working product. Either it will be made right, or you'll get your money back.

I'm also not saying that that you are unjustified in being disappointed and frustrated. I know that I would be. It sucks to find out that something is defective out of the box, no matter what it is or how much you paid.

I am saying that after being in this hobby for a few years, I've learned patience. I do most of my astronomy during week long events out in the wilderness, hundreds of miles from home. I generally look to buy my astronomy gear 3 or 4 months before I'm going to take it out in the field. I've found this time to be absolutely necessary to be able to deal with delays in delivery, time to test and tune the equipment, and to learn how to get it to perform to its specifications.

It's easy to make car analogies, but it's not quite the same thing. Cars are a mass market consumer item. The auto manufacturers produce *far* more units and have a much more refined process than any telescope mount manufacturer. A low volume model of car will probably sell many more units in a single year than Celestron will sell CGEMs during the entire life of the product - possibly by orders of magnitude.

Yet even with cars, there is some conventional wisdom: A first year car is generally expected to have more problems than one that's been in production for several years. And a higher end car is generally expected to have fewer problems than an economy car (think Lexus LS versus Dodge Neon.)

If you set your expectations that telescopes and mounts are scientific instruments from small companies, and not consumer goods from huge companies, you may find that you are more satisfied in the long run.

Just my two cents,
-Wade

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PhilCo126
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/14/05

Loc: coastline of Belgium

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: WadeH237]
#2963381 - 03/04/09 02:08 PM

So basically You guys are saying rather go to a CGE than a CGEM?

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Dave H.
sage

Reged: 02/29/08

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: PhilCo126]
#2963428 - 03/04/09 02:32 PM

Quote:

So basically You guys are saying rather go to a CGE than a CGEM?

I don't think the CGEM failure rate supports that statement at all, and I can't substantiate selecting a CGE over a CGEM simply based on the number of CGEM problems.

For that matter, I just sold a perfect CGE, and am keeping my CGEM.

There are many happy CGEM owners out there like myself, and from the comments on this board, it seesm there are certainly more happy CGEM owners than those that have had issues with their CGEM mounts. Certainly if I was one with problems in my new CGEM mount I would also be unhappy, and those that have experienced problems have every right to be unhappy. But that does not mean the CGEM mount is not a good mount, in fact IMHO it is great mount for the price. I have had issues with other Celestron gear in the past and while it was a PIA and I was unhappy with the hassle of returning the gear to Celestron, they did take care of the problems and return the gear to me. I have no reason to doubt that they will also take care of the problems experienced on some CGEM mounts, but if one concludes they should buy a CGE, that is certainly your choice.

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PhilCo126
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/14/05

Loc: coastline of Belgium

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: Dave H.]
#2963501 - 03/04/09 03:06 PM

That makes perfectly sense Dave... looks like I might order a CGEM as it can carry 20 kilograms

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Blixx
professor emeritus

Reged: 12/02/07

Loc: CO. Aurora, USA

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

new

[Re: PhilCo126]
#2963610 - 03/04/09 04:14 PM

I hope that this is not to far off topic, but can any one who owns a cgem tell me what polar finder scope goes with this mount. I can't seem to find any documentation as to which polar scope I would need to buy if I get this mount?
Thanks,
Dan

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Dave H.
sage

Reged: 02/29/08

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: Blixx]
#2963657 - 03/04/09 04:42 PM

Hi Dan,

I hope the OP does not see this as too far off topic, but let me reply.

Celestron has announced they are redesigning the CGE Polar Scope to work with both the CGEM and the CGE. However with the CGEM and the new version 4.17 hand control upgrade for the CGE, there really should be little need for a polar scope as these products include the new Celestron All Star Polar Alignment (ASPA) routine.

There are a number of posts regarding the ASPA here on CN, and the shared opinion is that it works like a charm!

I and others have described this ASPA in more detail in previous posts, and you may wish to review some of those prior posts if interested. If you consider for a moment that with ASPA your polar alignment can be made on a star potentially on the opposite side of the horizon from the North Celestial Pole, you can imagine the increased degree of accuracy versus aligning on Polaris which is only 1 degree from the celestial pole.

Please review the link below that describes the ASPA, and there are other posts here on CN that also address this topic.

http://www.celestron.com/c3/page.php?PageID=370

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mclewis1
Thread Killer

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: Dave H.]
#2963842 - 03/04/09 06:08 PM

Quote:

However with the CGEM and the new version 4.17 hand control upgrade for the CGE, there really should be little need for a polar scope as these products include the new Celestron All Star Polar Alignment (ASPA) routine.

Uh Dave ... I think you mean version 4.15, right?

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Dave H.
sage

Reged: 02/29/08

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: mclewis1]
#2963928 - 03/04/09 06:50 PM

I guess I really must learn to type one day...

Yeah, sorry, the new version software is the 4.15 like mclewis1 stated above. Thanks for the correction MC and sorry for any confusion...

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Lord Beowulf
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/13/08

Loc: Cedar Park, TX

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: Dave H.]
#2964085 - 03/04/09 08:17 PM

Quote:

There are many happy CGEM owners out there like myself, and from the comments on this board, it seesm there are certainly more happy CGEM owners than those that have had issues with their CGEM mounts.

While I would agree (or at least certainly hope) that there are more happy CGEM owners than those of us who've had problems, I'm not sure just how many more. My impression is that there haven't been that many CGEMs shipped yet. I'd welcome comments from our Astronomics friends or any other vendors on here as to how many they've seen/shipped, but I'd guess that no more than 50 sounds about right, and that 100 would be very surprising. At that volume, the at least five failures that I'm aware of is still a pretty high failure rate. I certainly HOPE Celestron will rectify the situation, but my faith is waning!

Beo

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bseltzer
professor emeritus

Reged: 10/28/07

Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: rmollise]
#2964227 - 03/04/09 09:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"Nobody's QC is 100%. Nobody - period."

I was a partner in a company that makes life-support medical products. We did 100% inspection of the product with various inspectors checking all levels of function and performance. Every device made could only go out the door when signed and cosigned by responsible people. The result, very good Quality Control. Did every device work correctly when it reached the end-user - No.

I'm sure QA was 100% at Pantex, too.

Yep...for much else, 100% is not cost effective and unless there are real problems with the manufacturing process, doesn't really improve the results that much.

The last question in the quote above and it's answer make my point for me. There is nobody anywhere who has ever made more than 2 of anything and had them come out 100% identical. It doesn't matter how many people check how many parameters how many times, the simple fact is even the instruments used to take the measurements have some inescapable random error built into them. QC is, plain and simple, all about shades of gray.

The part I want to emphasize is that it's how a vendor responds to the inevitable out-of-spec sample that determines whether or not they're worth doing business with on an ongoing basis. That, and of course, just how "loose" their spec's are in comparison to other similar products at a similar price point.

Regards,
Bert

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LLEEGE
True Blue

Reged: 03/03/05

Loc: Cloud-chester,NY

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: bseltzer]
#2964253 - 03/04/09 09:38 PM

No problems with mine yet. (fingers crossed)

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tboss70
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Missouri

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: LLEEGE]
#2964269 - 03/04/09 09:48 PM

I was just getting ready to PM you Luke. I thought you purchased one.

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Dave H.
sage

Reged: 02/29/08

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: LLEEGE]
#2964294 - 03/04/09 10:00 PM

Beo,
I just noticed on the Sky Scout/My Sky forum that your Celestron Sky Scout is also broken and you have been waiting for an extended time for Celestron to repair that...

Dude, I'm sorry but you seem to have had a run of some bad luck

Hope things get better, and C takes care of all your problems quickly.

On a some what related note, I bought a new model 1911 .45 auto pistol on Jan 6 from a well respected gun dealer that has their gun smith check all their firearms. This particular brand/model of the venerable model 1911 is very highly regarded, and from all reports one of the best model 1911s available with thousands of positive referrals.

I fired (3) 50 round boxes of .45 ammo and cleaned it, then a few days later fired 2 more boxes of ammo. I never had a single misfire, not even a single problem. On the next box of ammo it jammed right off, then after clearing thew jam, it jammed again. Then after another clearing it jammed again and I took it right back to the gunsmith where I bought the gun. He inspected and dissasembled the gun but could not fix it and sent it back to the manufacturer. Nearly 2 months later I'm still waiting for my "new" pistol to be repaired and returned. This has been a total PIA and they say misery loves company, so I thought I would share my story as it sounds a little like your CGEM story in a way.

Best of luck getting your problems with your Celestron gear resolved. Keep looking up!

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Lord Beowulf
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/13/08

Loc: Cedar Park, TX

Re: My CGEM is bust ;( new

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[Re: Dave H.]
#2964366 - 03/04/09 10:39 PM

Thanks Dave,

Of course I'm reminded of the definition of insanity; doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. Thus, I'm beginning to question the sanity of continuing to deal with Celestron. I guess I'm just stubborn and expect them to make things right!

Beo

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