divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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CGEM rail
#2942686 - 02/22/09 11:05 AM
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I am sure this has been asked, but hey....one more time...
Just got my CGEM from Astronomics...went to put my C11 on it and found out the rails do not fit. The dovetail does not seem to be deep enough to fit into the mounts saddle. So....someone please tell me where to get a proper dovetail so I can use this beautiful mount.
Robert
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2942892 - 02/22/09 01:04 PM
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The CGEM saddle is a Losmandy D compatible saddle, so just about anything labeled Losmandy or Losmandy D or CGE will fit. The vendors who make these are Losmandy (of course), ADM, Baader, Celestron, and many others. What you don't want is anything that is "vixen" or CG-5 compatible.
That said there are a some variables, unfortunately some vendors have machined dovetail rail/plates (the bigger D compatible ones are often called plates instead of a rail) in sizes that can be a problem in other vendor's saddles. Generally you won't go wrong with a "real" Losmandy D plate or one from a good quality vendor such as ADM.
What is on your C11? Something in the back of my mind reminds me that there was something "funny about the saddle on LXD650s ... but I'm not certain about that. I no longer know anyone who has one that I can check with.
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Dave H.
sage
Reged: 02/29/08
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: mclewis1]
#2943000 - 02/22/09 02:02 PM Attachment (45 downloads)
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You might consider this adapter from ScopeStuff. This is what I have on my CGEM, and allows your CGEM to accomodate use Vixen/CG5 dovetail rails like the one on your C11.
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: Dave H.]
#2943095 - 02/22/09 02:50 PM
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Robert,
Can you provide us with a picture of your current C11 rail and how it attaches to the LXD650?
It turns out that there are a variety of ways to attach a scope to an LXD650, and most likely as Dave is assuming is that your C11 has a vixen compatible rail on it (a vixen compatible rail is 1.75" wide at it's widest point). If this is true then you have a few options.
Add a vixen compatible adapter to your CGEM ... as Dave mentioned Scopestuff has an nice SS_TV2 adapter for $89, ADM has a LOS-VIX for $99.
The other approach that I was suggesting in my earlier post is to replace your existing rail (whatever it is) with a Losmandy D plate (Losmandy DC11) which is available for $95-100.
The adapters won't require any extra work (if your existing rail is really a vixen compatible one) and are a few dollars cheaper. The new plate will be more solid and will put the scope a bit closer to the mount (less counterweight required).
Personally I think a vixen rail on a C11 is ok for visual work but doesn't make sense for imaging, especially if you're going to piggyback a refractor on the C11 as well ... it's just not stiff enough to prevent any flexing with all that weight on it. The larger Losmandy D plates will support quite a bit more weight without any flexing.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: mclewis1]
#2943106 - 02/22/09 02:58 PM Attachment (65 downloads)
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I have a full length d style with radius blocks on my C11. When I had my LXD I used an ADM saddle. The CGEM saddle is different. The plate is the long one in the picture.
Edited by divers (02/22/09 03:00 PM)
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2943153 - 02/22/09 03:23 PM
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Robert,
Thanks for clearing that part up ... there's obviously no need for any rail/plate 101 discussion.
So your Losmandy D plate doesn't fit well in the stock CGEM saddle ... hmmmm, this is interesting. All the initial reports on the CGEM were that the saddle looked and measured like any other Losmandy D compatible saddle. For comparison the existing CGE (not CGEM) saddle works fine with the Losmandy D plates.
Any chance of a picture of the miss match with your setup?
I do know that Celestron CGE rails and Losmandy D plates are slightly different, the sides of the CGE rail are indeed a bit "deeper". The CGE rail also tends to fit slightly loosely in real Losmandy D saddles but that the ADM D saddles by the nature of their design have enough latitude to handle this, so perhaps the CGE rail is also going to be the one that fits the best in the CGEM's saddle.
It is likely that the quickest fix for you is to use the real orange Celestron CGE rail (they are one piece with no radius blocks) for your C11.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: mclewis1]
#2943201 - 02/22/09 03:50 PM Attachment (57 downloads)
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please notice the gap under the plate.
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2943342 - 02/22/09 05:25 PM Attachment (51 downloads)
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Robert,
Is the whole angled side of the dovetail in contact with the angled side of the saddle?
Is the lower area of the plate (where the holes are in your picture ... just above the angle side of the dovetail) in contact with the topside of the saddle?
If yes to both questions then I think you are fine. Yes that's a pretty big gap under the plate but some gap is not unusual and if the whole angled side of the dovetail is in good contact (on both sides) with the saddle then that is the most holding power the saddle can exert on the dovetail. The dovetail plate resting on the bottom of the saddle doesn't provide any holding power.
Sure having a dovetail that is in contact with the whole saddle side plate would provide more piece of mind but I don't think it would be any more solid. You will have to ensure that the dovetail is properly seated in the saddle before tightening it down and moving the mount but I don't think that is any different than anyone else with a big scope and a Losmandy D plate.
This picture is my C11 with it's Losmandy DC11 mounted on a CGE saddle. The sides of the dovetail and the saddle line up well but there is a gap under the plate ... in my case it's just a bit more than 1/16".
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: mclewis1]
#2943346 - 02/22/09 05:26 PM Attachment (55 downloads)
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And the shot of the actual gap ...
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Dave H.
sage
Reged: 02/29/08
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2943367 - 02/22/09 05:38 PM
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My bad. 
Obvious poor assumption that you had a CG5 dovetail rail as so many C11s are sold with this rail. Frankly I am very surprised and would have never guessed you were using a Losmandy d series dovetail. I have always understood the conventional widom to be that the Losmnady and CGE dovetails are 100% compatible. So much for conventional wisdom. 
I'm still very confused. 
I totally agree with the previous post that on a C11, a CGE or Losmandy dovetail fit right to the saddle would be far more secure than an adapter. On my lighter tubes that all have CG5 type rails including the F8 6" achro the adapter works OK, but this is certainly a totally different problem, and one I would have never anticipated. Keep us posted on your solution, and good luck.
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: mclewis1]
#2943371 - 02/22/09 05:40 PM
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Robert, In looking at your picture some more I think one of the differences is that the CGEM saddle appears to be cast and the CGE saddle has been machined so it looks like there is better contact in the CGE saddle. The issue seems to come down to whether the CGEM saddle sides are smooth enough to ensure good contact with the angled sides of the dovetail so that the top of the CGEM saddle jaws fit high up into the angled "corner" of the dovetail.
I think I'd experiment with the D plate and CGEM saddle and see where the saddle would "let go" of the plate. See just how much the saddle has to open before the plate can slip out. That may help your piece of mind. If it's close and you're still uncomfortable with the setup then I think the CGE plate in place of the Losmandy plate will be the way to go. Either that or replace the CGEM saddle but I don't think that is an option from any vendor ... yet.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: mclewis1]
#2943398 - 02/22/09 05:51 PM
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I have some thinking to do. Thanks for all the replies.
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Lane
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/19/07
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2944078 - 02/23/09 12:56 AM
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Divers - I have a Losmandy D Plate on my C9.25 and it mounts exactly the way you show in your picture with a gap underneath. That is just how it fits and it works fine. I don't think having it touch the bottom of the saddle is going to add anything except maybe more weight. But if it really bugs you, just wait, because it won't be long now before ADM and others create a replacement saddle for the CGEM. It is just still to new right now, but all the kinds of replacement parts you can get for the Sirius and Atlas will be coming for the CGEM too.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: Lane]
#2947152 - 02/24/09 02:46 PM
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Well...after using the CGEM a couple times....the standard d style rail gives me the heeby-jeebies. The CGEM saddle just barely has enough to hold onto. I am suprised more have not seen this issue. My next step is to email Anthony at ADM and see what he has. BTW - the mount rocks. I did a very careful alignment the other night. I place my 12mm reticle eyepiece and slewed to Rigel...centered it precisely (just a tad off) and left for 1.5 hours...when I cam back was still centered (albeit just a tad off).
Edited by divers (02/24/09 03:23 PM)
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chollman
sage
Reged: 04/24/08
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2947204 - 02/24/09 03:17 PM
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Doesn't anybody where you bought the mount have any suggestions? I was thinking of buying the cgem for my 8" newt. I will run into the same problem.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: chollman]
#2947210 - 02/24/09 03:20 PM
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Spoke with Astronomics...Celestron does not sell the CGE rail seperately. I am sure Anthony will be making something soon....he always seems to fill the niche.
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chollman
sage
Reged: 04/24/08
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2947231 - 02/24/09 03:31 PM
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Not to be too critical, but should Celestron sell this mount without a mounting plate or rail? Do they expect us to make one ourself? That is a pretty important part for them not to supply. Borderline rediculous to me.
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Loc: NE Ohio
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: chollman]
#2947259 - 02/24/09 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Not to be too critical, but should Celestron sell this mount without a mounting plate or rail? Do they expect us to make one ourself? That is a pretty important part for them not to supply. Borderline rediculous to me.
The mount manufacturer has no idea what type of optical tube will be installed - and thus no idea of the kind of dovetail rail (length? radius blocks? flats for rings?) the user will need. Takahashi and Astro-Physics don't provide rails (or even saddles) for this reason but nobody seems to complain. It'd make more sense to blame those OTA manufacturers who don't provide a rail of letting the customer down - but, of course, there are two very common dovetail sizes and the OTA manufacturer doesn't know which you'll need for your mount.
Whatever type of rail is required for a given optical tube, it is readily available from the usual sources - primarily Losmandy and ADM. By the way - Losmandy doesn't include a rail with their mounts, either.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: jrcrilly]
#2947270 - 02/24/09 03:47 PM
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I have to agree with John. I "think" the OTA being supplied on the CGEM "kits" probably have rails that fit well. Anyone want to buy a nice d-style rail 
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chollman
sage
Reged: 04/24/08
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: jrcrilly]
#2947280 - 02/24/09 03:53 PM
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Divers said he didn't like the fit of the Losmandy 'D' plate. I have not seen a reasonable answer here. Do you have to jump through several hoops or spend way too much? I have a 70" long tube 10" diam. about 22 pounds in weight. What plate can I attach my rings to that won't make me worry about a proper fit?
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: chollman]
#2947312 - 02/24/09 04:08 PM
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...that's the "problem" with buying something new to the market....growing pains!
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chollman
sage
Reged: 04/24/08
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2947324 - 02/24/09 04:12 PM
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Ouch!! I think I'll wait a while.
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Lane
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/19/07
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: chollman]
#2947654 - 02/24/09 07:25 PM
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Divers, I still don't see why this is a problem. My Losmandy bar on my 9.25 fits the same as yours. My ADM D to V adapter also fits the same way. And I have no intention of replacing anything. As long as it holds and it sturdy why worry about it. I put my 9.25 on my CGEM and lifted the entire setup by the dovetail bar just to see how strong it is and I don't think you could knock it out of that saddle with a hammer. But if you really don't like it then the best solution is to replace the saddle not the dovetail. If you replace the saddle then every other dovetail you buy will also fit the way you want. So if you can just wait a little while someone like ADM will create a replacement saddle for the CGEM. Most mounts have replacement aftermarket saddles available the CGEM is still just to new.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: Lane]
#2947748 - 02/24/09 08:18 PM
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Lane -
Personal preference. The rail that comes with the OTA that actually comes with a CGEM in the kit is different from the d style. It is indeed a little deeper and fits better.
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Lane
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/19/07
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2947799 - 02/24/09 08:49 PM
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I have the standard celestron cge type bar on my C11 and my C8. They do go a little deeper into the saddle but there is gap under them as well they don't touch the bottom of the saddle either.
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NickCat
member
Reged: 11/08/08
Loc: Massachusetts
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: Lane]
#2947955 - 02/24/09 10:29 PM
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Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but Anthony posted this Dual Saddle head replacement he's working on over on the Yahoo CGEM group:
http://admaccessories.com/DUAL_SAD_CGEM.htm
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Lane
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/19/07
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: NickCat]
#2948191 - 02/25/09 01:01 AM
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Nice find NickCat - that is exactly what Divers needs. Andy at ADM is correct about that powder coating too, it looks good but the paint scratchs off easily. I already have five or six spots on mine showing bare metal. A black annodized aluminum plate will look much nicer.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: Lane]
#2948413 - 02/25/09 07:20 AM
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Thanks NickCat -
Anyone know when they are available?
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NickCat
member
Reged: 11/08/08
Loc: Massachusetts
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2948542 - 02/25/09 09:14 AM
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I just asked Anthony last night via the Yahoo Group for an update, he hasn't replied yet. I know the last time around he said he's been quite busy working on them. According to his last post he wants them "ready for shipping early next month," here is that original post:
Quote:
I'm sorry if I didn't respond to previous posts about my Prototype kits. It is sometimes difficult for me to find the time to read and respond to all the different user groups. I have several prototypes completed and wanted to update you on the progress. Please check out the link below for a write up on my replacement DUAL-SADDLE for the CGEM. This replacement saddle will accept both V-Series dovetails as well as D-Series dovetails.
http://admaccessories.com/DUAL_SAD_CGEM.htm
As luck would have it the EQG "hockey puck" adapter works with the CGEM. If you are looking for a less expensive alternative you can purchase the DUAL-SAD-EQG. One other
option for using V-Series dovetails is the LOS-VIX adapter. I am now shipping all the LOS-VIX adapters with longer knobs. The previous knobs were too short and hit the CGEM saddle.
If you scroll to the bottom you will also see the replacement rosette knobs that I am working on. Unfortunately the Winter Star Party is going to get in the way of my timeline. I am hoping to have both the DUAL-SAD-CGEM and the knob replacement kits ready for
shipping early next month.
I will do my best to keep all of you up to date as I continue to move forward.
Anthony Davoli
ADM Accessories
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t.r.
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/08
Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: NickCat]
#2951051 - 02/26/09 01:56 PM
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Great idea, but voids the two-year warranty on a new mount, a "modification"...no?
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: t.r.]
#2951088 - 02/26/09 02:16 PM
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Not sure Celestron would worry about a saddle change. If so, just keep the old one in a closet.
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LLEEGE
True Blue
Reged: 03/03/05
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2951107 - 02/26/09 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Lane -
Personal preference. The rail that comes with the OTA that actually comes with a CGEM in the kit is different from the d style. It is indeed a little deeper and fits better.
You'll be even more disappointed in the Celstron rail. They are made of aluminum extrusions and are quite flimsy compared to the Losmandy rails. In fact, Astro-Physics warns against using Celestron rails with their saddles. Whether or not the Losmandy rail touches the bottom of the CGEM saddle won't effect how secure it is. Much ado about nuttin, IMO. 
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LLEEGE
True Blue
Reged: 03/03/05
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: LLEEGE]
#2951110 - 02/26/09 02:33 PM
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Another note, the AMD saddle wasn't designed to correct this supposed problem. The design is to allow the use of either Vixen or Losmandy D series plates in the same saddle. Which, by the way, is an excellent idea. But if using this saddle with D series plates, you will have little contact on the bottom as well, due to the recess for the V plates.
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: LLEEGE]
#2951129 - 02/26/09 02:42 PM
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LLEEGE -
Are you currently using a d-style with the CGEM carrying a C11?
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LLEEGE
True Blue
Reged: 03/03/05
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2951203 - 02/26/09 03:19 PM
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No, but I am using a CGEM with other scopes similar in weight. I do use safety stops with all my mounts and OTA's though, just in case. Ironically, the best one I have came with my C9.25. 
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divers
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/21/08
Loc: Apopka, FL
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: LLEEGE]
#2951240 - 02/26/09 03:37 PM
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Thanks. Like I stated...chalk it up to personal preference. Kinda like all the people that don't like the saddle knobs. I think they are just fine, but some do not.
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LLEEGE
True Blue
Reged: 03/03/05
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: divers]
#2951263 - 02/26/09 03:45 PM
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No problem. I just thought you would like to know the Celestron rails are a bit flimsy.
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Loc: NE Ohio
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: LLEEGE]
#2951314 - 02/26/09 04:12 PM
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Quote:
No problem. I just thought you would like to know the Celestron rails are a bit flimsy.
I can't argue with that. The Celestron rail is arguably prettier, and looks lighter - but if I'd been at all serious about imaging with my C11 I'd have swapped the rail out for a Losmandy.
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PhilCo126
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/14/05
Loc: coastline of Belgium
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Re: CGEM rail
[Re: chollman]
#2963609 - 03/04/09 04:13 PM
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Probably the best CGEM related topic on CloudyNights.com 
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