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Spoonsize
DURHAM 157494
   
Reged: 08/27/04
Loc: Stuck in a Time Warp.
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3031521 - 04/08/09 07:57 AM
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Phil, I can rent a Diamond Blade Concrete chainsaw for $285 and be done in about 5 minutes but I'm wondering if it would be worth the hassle. Dust would not be an issue as it's a wet saw but there is still a lot of work to be done after that. Would it all be worth it?
Anybody with an opinion
Opinion?....Yup....It don't make no never mind how you cut the top off, it will be one of the messiest/dirtiest/hardest to clean messes you've ever had to clean.
Jacking up the obs, as mentioned earlier, is a GOOD option.
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RAKing
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/28/07
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3031556 - 04/08/09 08:24 AM
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I'm going to sleep on it for a few days.
That's your best option right now. Sleep on it; think about it.
There is no need to rush into this. I'm sure Mike is offering you a great price, but the CGE Pro is not a limited edition or one off item. You have at least until NEAF to dream up a plan.
I worked in concrete construction and I don't care how wet that saw is - it will be a messy job as mentioned above. But if you do it right, you will only have to do it once. 
I'll see you at NEAF. 
Ron
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Strgazr27
  
Reged: 10/04/04
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Spoonsize]
#3031564 - 04/08/09 08:29 AM
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Steve,
Jacking the Obs. is out of the question as I would than have to raise the roll off track section. I could do this by just laying down another row of 4X4 but the work, in the end is more than cleaning up the mess.
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EddWen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/26/08
Loc: Here or There
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3031949 - 04/08/09 12:21 PM
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For future reference regarding pier design.
I have several different set-ups now, and not knowing what will come in the future, here is how I designed my pier.
post #2778252
My height requirement is a comfortable eyepiece height for visual viewing. The lowest position, no extension tube, is set for my NexStar 11 in alt-az mode used when I'm using a roll-around chair. The extension shown in the picture is sized for the A-P 1200 with refractor.
Others have done similar with welded steel piers of varying height on the concrete base. I think my version has more flexibility.
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
   
Reged: 09/11/06
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3032094 - 04/08/09 01:32 PM
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Bobby... I say "just do it"... get some plastic, a bunch of duct tape, a few beers and setup to do the "sawzall" thing to that pier... rent the tool... cut away... and done...
here's why...
if you DON'T do it, even though you were fully prepared to spend the $5K on it... well, then...
you'll forever regret not buying back your old MI-250 for only slightly more money (especially since you would NOT have had to cut the pier)...
I know it's "twisted logic"; but if you really were ready to drop $5K on the CGE-Pro... well then, you were also really ready to "move on" from the G11, right? And you'd made that emotional and financial decision...
And, frankly, where ELSE are you going to move on TO from a G11?
Everything else is more like $7K, setup... (or more)... (Mach1, MI-250), or way more (AP900, EM400, etc...)
One other thought: since you're "cutting anyways" why not cut it off ALL the way down, then drill mounting holes into what's left, and then get a steel pier that can be "modularized" over time, using bolts...? It's the same amount of pier destruction/re-construction work/mess... Though it does involve buying/building some type of steel pier...
That way, your tendency to change mounts a lot (yep - we've noticed!) can more easily be accommodated in the future.
I just thought (from going back and re-reading your posts on this thread and others) that you are REALLY ready to "move back up"...
Ah, the joys...
clear enough skies
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Strgazr27
  
Reged: 10/04/04
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Bowmoreman]
#3033673 - 04/09/09 08:53 AM
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I think I came up with a solution The Chainsaw is out as they want $85 to rent the saw, $25 for the water pump and.........$700 FOR THE CHAIN!
What I am going to do is grab the electric jackhammer from work. Cover everything with plastic. Hammer away about 18" of the top of the pier. Than I'm going to drill 1" holes around the existing pier, cover it with a 14" sonotube and fill that with concrete. I';; bring it up to the height I need with new J-bolts using my existing pier plate to locate the bolts. This should tie the 2 together and create a nice finished look when I pull the new sonotube off.
Any thoughts why this wouldn't work?
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bdjeep
sage
Reged: 01/29/07
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3033804 - 04/09/09 10:12 AM
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Wow...that's a lot of money to rent a saw.
I'd say you're in for a long day with the jackhammer. I've used those electric ones before, and it's a very slow process. They're not really precision instruments, hard to aim and tend to drift around an awful lot. Perhaps you have access to a better one then I did, or maybe you've got a whole lot more experience running one.
How about drilling a number of holes with a masonry bit followed by a few well placed blows with a 20 lb. sledge hammer? Depending on the amount of re-bar you have in that thing, it might break it up enough to knock the height down.
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LLEEGE
True Blue
   
Reged: 03/03/05
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3033811 - 04/09/09 10:14 AM
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I assume you will be keeping the existing rebar in tact. If so, you should be fine. I wouldn't bother even drilling holes to tie it in. I also assume the 14" sonotube is larger then the existing pier. That will give a nice finished look.
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RAKing
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/28/07
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: LLEEGE]
#3034036 - 04/09/09 12:05 PM
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I also assume the 14" sonotube is larger then the existing pier. That will give a nice finished look.
I used to do underwater bridge construction. If that new 14 inch sonotube is bigger than your existing pier, you should take the time to scrub the outside surface of the existing pier and get it as clean as possible. The new concrete will bond better.
When we did it, we had to coat the existing stuff with epoxy (an incredible PITA underwater ) before we could pour the new stuff around it.
Best of luck.
Ron
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nofxrx
Vendor (HyperCams & Mods)
   
Reged: 07/12/05
Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: RAKing]
#3034655 - 04/09/09 05:56 PM
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Why not rent a gas powered 14" concrete saw. I used to work for a rental co. and they go for like $65 a day and blades are only ~$8...a couple blades and a nice sledge should do the trick just fine. I have worked in construction since I was 16! Concrete,while a PITA!!,is pretty easy to break apart with the right tools... MOST of those saws come with a water hookup to keep the mess down. Go to your local construction equipment rental place and tell them you need something like an Stihl 800series Concrete Saw(IIRC)..AND make sure you tell them what you are trying to do,THEY will show you what will work best...well,if they know thier job they will.. 
We have installed hundres of direct burial conrete poles(for shopping center parking lots),a lot of the times we would have to install those decorative bases on the ground around the pole,well those are only a pre-made foam form that you fill with concrete...any little shift and they will look crooked..a couple times we had to replace them(EXTREMELY picky owners..lol) we would simply cut DOWN(direction ) the pole and chisel it out sideways,OR better yet a hit in the right spot with a sledge would make VERY quick work of it if it is cut right to begin with... Just take the saw and make sorta checkerboard cuts on the top and sides down to your height needed then chisel or sledge away...
need any more advice let me know..been doing this kinda PITA stuff pretty much half my life..MIGHT be why I have a bad back at 26..hmmm
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Strgazr27
  
Reged: 10/04/04
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: nofxrx]
#3034733 - 04/09/09 06:54 PM
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Brent,
Andy has a neighbor with a 14" concrete saw and that looks like what I will be using. I figure a cut around the circumference followed by a good shot with a 20lb sledge should snap it off. I can than chisel down the middle unless I can cut all the way through all the way around. My only concern is a compromise in strength as the "New" tube will be bonded to the old pier and not really structurally part of it. I was contemplating drilling a series of 1" holes into the existing pier at a 45 degree angle so that the new pour would fill these up and help anchor the old pier to the new outer "Sleeve" so to speak. Any other ideas or would this help?
I hear ya on the bad back. I did wood floor refinishing and installation for 12 years.
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nofxrx
Vendor (HyperCams & Mods)
   
Reged: 07/12/05
Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3034938 - 04/09/09 09:06 PM
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Hey Bobby, FIRST OFF,do NOT jack up the OBS...sorry to all who have mentioned that but..not a great idea..MAINLY,because it will NOT be easy unless you own a couple of very good jacks and set them up properly and make sure the entire thing is level(I know thats not CRITICAL,but to me,IT would be..)..second because it will be a BIGGER PITA,trust me...and thats not even factoring in the rolloff problem... YES,Conrete is VERY messy making/pouring/leveling or whatever else you are doing with it...AND it is EVEN messier to tear down..UNLESS you do it RIGHT AND have a water hookup on the saw..OR at least someone to hold a hose and spray directly behind the saw..THAT alone will turn a ton of dust,that will make the neighbors think you have a fire or something going on,down to a sloppy mess easily cleanable with a GOOD shopvac..IMPO,best option is to simply cut to height and add new pier adapter connections.. Back to advice..Bobby, I am not sure if I missed it somewhere,what is the diameter of your pier now?And what kind of Rebar system is in there? If it is a cage type (ring type rebar tied to standard rebar down the length of the tube..)then you will have to cut at least through all the rebar.. If it is simply a couple of rebars going down the tube(some tie thier all thread or J-bolts to it as well..) then you will STILL have to cut past the Rebar  NOW,onto things you dont already know  If the saw does not go through all the way around(i.e.MAX depth on a 14" saw is somewhere around 6-1/2" maybe a hair more..) I would definately score the concrete all the way around..maybe 3" deep,or more but you will eat up blades the more you cut,but will make the rest of the job much easier.. After scoring,take the saw at ~45deg angle DOWN into the pier attempting to reach the original "scoring level"..basically like how you would take down a tree(if you have ever done that...lol)... The purpose is to create a place for the concrete to"give". After scoring and cutting your angle go to opposite side and give it a couple of good whacks with a sledge...this SHOULD do it..aftre the top is gone: Most you should have to do is some more cutting/chiseling to get a fairly flat surface..
Now,here is my main concern.. Why are you cutting DOWN,to build BACK up..? I am sorry as apperantly I have missed something somewhere..
If it is to simply add a new "pier hardware" into fresh concrete..then I may have a solution for you...
I see this used ALL the time by Masons who need to add more concrete to an existing structure..i.e.,my company is currently building our 32nd Wallgreens.After the initial Slab is done and the building is going up they still have to level around the front and build the entranceway "sidewalk"..the do this by drilling horizontally into the existing slab and doing: There is an epoxy(commercial grade of course) that is in a caulk tube,I dont know if a place like Home Depot will carry it or not..check with your local supply wharehouses(here in FL,we have places like:Hughes,HD-Supply,GreyBar etc..) for it..I am SURE it is not cheap like a tube of silicon is.. You drill holes as deep as you need,and then clean them..a good shop vac with maybe a piece of flexible tubing duct taped to the end(like "sealtight",its a flexible electrical conduit used outdoors for things like pumps,water main sensors,etc.),this will give you a "smaller" hose to get into your holes and get as much sediment out..and THEN pouring full of water to allow sediments to flow out..this will give you a clean bonding surface. FILL with epoxy and put you Rebar(OR you could EVEN use All-thread or whatever you are planning to use to adapt to your pier top plate...I would put bolts on the allthread all down the allthread to give it that EXTRA secureness when the epoxy is finished curing..!!) This stuff is NOT your normal epoxy..TRUST me.If it is good enough to suppor walls and slabs,it will be MORE than sufficient enough for what we would need it for..
This way,you could merely cut your pier to your desired height and just "sink" you new materials into the top..it will cut your workload in half as you will not have to design your new structure,mix and pour your new concrete..IMHO,worth it...
You will want to get the top fairly flat,but that would be merely for cosmetic purposes..or you could still drill a couple of more smaller holes,buy a bag of mortar mix,and simply "shape" a new top..you wrap the tube with flashing material at an inch or whatever your new height will be,that will give you your level and you simply fill to the top and trowel the top to smooth it out..
Your idea of drilling holes is a GREAT idea and is exactly what needs to be done to support your new structure.I just dont understand why you are going about this,this way...please let me know,I am very curious as to what you are trying to accomplish..
Thanks, Brent
BTW,I STRONGLY suggest lining your walls in painters plastic..this will keep the "mess" from getting your walls,which might not be so easy to clean up..
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
   
Reged: 09/11/06
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: nofxrx]
#3034993 - 04/09/09 09:34 PM
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Good details, Brent...
Bobby's challenge, in a nutshell, is this:
His current concrete pier is about 10-12" too tall for the next mount he wants to use... hence the radical "shortening measures" being discussed...
My though was: if shortening anyways (i.e. hassle, work, mess) why not shorten all the way down and then use a modular steel pier (so that in the future - for NEXT mounts - he can just bolt/unbolt as desired and needed...
Your info was quite informative, though... (glad I'm "steel") 
clear enough skies
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nofxrx
Vendor (HyperCams & Mods)
   
Reged: 07/12/05
Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Bowmoreman]
#3035136 - 04/09/09 10:49 PM
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LOL Dave, I was unaware he was switching to the "steel" side 
If that is the case,I would still strongly advise using the epoxy to anchor your bolts(RedHeads,there are VERY good concrete anchors and come in many sizes..) to the concrete. Just make a template for your new pier,drill,clean,fill with epoxy,sink RedHeads in,set pier on top,bolt down onto RedHeads..DONE..thats only...ohh,7,8 steps..AFTER you cut the BEAST down...LOL..
I personally did not have any luck with a steel pier,it was a bit small(IIRC,~5.5" in diameter,~42"tall,hollow,filled with sand..olted to concrete with J-bolts sunk into concrete while still wet..
My new Pier....looks like you could launch the shuttle off of it..OR,put an ME with a 14,5"RCOS...HA,like the wife would EVER let that happen...and that is one setup you cant hide,lol...actually,EVERYthing I have tried to hide from my wife she always finds out about it...TOO good of a memory..
Have fun,and clear skies.. Brent
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Strgazr27
  
Reged: 10/04/04
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: nofxrx]
#3035270 - 04/10/09 12:24 AM
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Brent,
Awesome info and THANKS! Here is the deal......Before I found out that Andy (Buzzer) good get me a concrete saw I was going to jackhammer the pier into submission Lol. Actually I was going to chip off the 16" I need to come down. This would have left a ragged top making drilling 3 new bolt holes accurately almost impossible. Mt way around this was to encase the old pier with a larger sonotube. This would allow me to make a new flat top I could set new bolts into and eliminate the ragged look. If the saw works as planned than I shouldn't need to do this. I can do as you say. Drill 3 new 1" holes, fill them with the epoxy and insert 3 new 3/4" plate bolts using my existing plate to keep them aligned. Looks like it may be this weekends project if I can get some help. How long should I let the epoxy cure before setting the monster in place? The Mount weighs in at 75lbs.
Thanks again for all the info
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nofxrx
Vendor (HyperCams & Mods)
   
Reged: 07/12/05
Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
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Re: Bad News :(
[Re: Strgazr27]
#3035356 - 04/10/09 01:40 AM
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Hmm,I wouldnt think that it would not need more than 24 hours...but check these out..
A quick search turned up this: http://www.superior-industries.com/anchor_bond_700_product_185.html Looks like its EXACTLY what you need,but is a bit pricey..too bad....it looks to be the right stuff to hold a set of anchor bolts for the mount..LOTS of tensile strength!!
On the bit cheaper side you have something like this: http://www.simpsonanchors.com/Catalog/adhesives/set/index.html This looks to be just as good...AND,is available at HOME DEPOT!!!!! I would definately call or go and check this stuff out..it looks to be the ticket..the site has installation instructions and the whole bit! http://www.simpsonanchors.com/catalog/adhesives/adhesive_anchoring_install.html
I think we might have a winner. 
Good luck,Bobby!!! Hey,did you get my message earlier?about the filter?I am just worried it might be "lost in translation" or something..just paranoud is all
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