mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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My CGE is housed in my backyard RoR observatory. I haven't had a chance to use it for over three months. I went out to the obs, fired up the computer and expected to wake the CGE from hibernation. It was fine the last time that I used it and I haven't been having any problems with the RA/Dec cables. The CGE pier power light is on.
However, NexRemote would not initialize with the mount. The trouble shooting steps that I've taken are below.
* Plugged in the hand controller, after a pause, get a No Response 17 message. Hit undo a couple of times, got time, then two star align menu items, hit enter, pauses then No Response 16.
* Mount is powered via CGE AC adapter, confirmed power to the mount, volt meter reads 16 V. (also tried an DC inverter that I confrmed tohave 14 v output, made no difference)
* Unplugged and reattached both ends of the RA & Dec cables.
What can I do to further trouble shoot to identify the cause of the failure? I'm wondering if there was a lightening strike nearby that fried something in the pier.
Thanks,
John
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12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Not sure about the 16 message, but the 17 code usually means that the Dec. cable isn't making good contact. Go to this page , scroll down to the bottom of the page. There are two choices. Buy a pair of the second choice...two 3' cables.
These cables are very soft and will not wallow out the Dec socket. Several CGE owners have had great success with these cables, including me. The stock cables are quite stiff and because of the severe bend in the Dec. cable, it finally gets to a point that the plug/socket doesn't make good contact giving you the code.
For what they cost, it's worth a try. Cured my problem.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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Thanks David. I will probably go ahead and get the cables.
I was hoping that someone with experience in tearing down the CGE could give some advice as to how to trouble shoot and make sure it isn't a motor drive board failure where I would need to order a new board (or other problem).
I would like to minimize my down time by getting right to identification of the issues rather than adventually finding it through ordering parts and trial and error.
John
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12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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The guy here that knows the most about the CGE is Joe Cipriano. He pops in from time to time.
Here's a sort of tutorial I posted sometime back about changing a Dec axis cable socket board. The socket was so bad, it didn't matter what cable I used. So I changed the socket board and it was fine.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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Thanks David, that's the kind of info I'm looking for, will make it less stressful to start taking things apart so I can try and identify what I need to fix.
Thanks,
John
--------------------
12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
|
BWAZ
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 590
Loc: CA
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I got the "no response 16" message a few days ago, and it turned out the power supply was weak, and the DEC cable was loose. You may double-check both the RA and DEC cables.
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APO-aholic.
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mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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Well, I’ve pulled off the covers and unscrewed the boards in both the RA & Dec housing. Can’t see any obvious damage to the boards (from a lightening strike or anything). I’ve switched the cables around and tried switching ends. Still no luck with either the hand controller (No response 17 on initiliazing) or Nexremote (no connection at all).
Does anyone know what things I can check with a multimeter to try and track down where the problem is? The mount is getting power (16V) and the power light on the mount comes on.
Thanks,
John
--------------------
12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
|
RodgerHouTex
member
Reged: 06/02/09
Posts: 44
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I purchased a CGE about 3 months ago and on power-up got the errors 16 and 17. It means that the hand controller can't communicate with the motor controllers both the RA and the Dec.. The vendor suggested that I flash the hand controller. You might want to try that. It killed my hand controller and I exchanged the CGE for a Losmandy G11, but it might work for you. Good luck.
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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It's pretty straightforward checking out the path from the MC board to the "J-5" board in each head motion assy. But I'd check from the power input board to the MC? The input power has 3 soldered conx - 2 are for gnd and one for pwr. It's on the ssame board as the PC conx.
Depending on your experience in electroncs and comfort level, I made my own wiring and interconnect diagram to TS with - couldnt find one so just made my own.
Once inside the 'pier' the power comes in from one direction and the H/C from another and connect to the mc board. The power board is the only one I dont have an image of. Once you get access to the boards checking voltages and etc is really pretty simple - the construction is very modular and thankfully low tech - so you can measure all over the place on the connectors... here's a few images - again apology for no pwr input board image.
I just removed all the boards from the pier and traced in a 'linear' way from input boards to output board (the one with the RA and DEC cable interconnect (referred to on boards as ALT /AZ)
here's the M/C board from inside the pier and you can see sig distribution conx... I believe this the only board that has PAL's or ROM's on it...
Heres the brains...
(final edit - All the boards can easily be removed by the OUTER screws - the ones you see on the outside of the electronics pier, NOT the inner ones holding the standoffs)
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 - 
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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The 'output's' from that board go here - and from here to the RA/DEC or ALT/AZ depending on which reference you choose (external conx label or internal board to board )
The other side of this board is the 2 connectors RA and DEC that paas the control signals from the 'electronics pier' to the 2 motion head head assy's via the interconnect cables.
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-
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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and the output from that goes to the little 'J-5' (my reference designation) boards inside the to motion housings with the motors and switches... signal path is the interconnect cables from pier to heads.
Wide conx goes to the servo / optical interrupter, the 2 pin goes to the limit switchin the motion assy.
As an aside, dependin on wich motion assy you are looking in - all the rear conx may be populated... but for TS purposes are indetical and can be interchanged if suspect (how I found bent pin in one of mine ...
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CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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My only image showing the "input power / PC conx / AutoGuide board" is from the back while installed in the mount electronics pier - the input power board is the one with battery located near the top and capacitors coming off the back...
This is looking into the electronics pier from the top with the circular cover plate removed (no screws it is held in with 2 sided tape only) the lower circular plate is still in place in this image - and is same - held in with 2 sided tape.
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-
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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Hope any of this helps de-mystify the electronics pier and how simple and modular the 'guts' of this mount are. All the boards can be removed and remain connected to one another (only the external cables need be removed) by removing the 2 screws from the OUTSIDE of the column. On mine the MC board was not attached to anything, although there are standoffs to do so. It appeared that there were holes in the circular cover plates to mount it, but wasn't able to do so and have it fit in the pier properly, so my thought is that it isn't supposed to be mounted (interferes the the mount head if on upper plate and tripod attachment if on lower)
When I made my schematic I removed all boards and set them on a table, connected to the mount heads, PWR and HC, powered up and began making my notes and diagrams... and used resistive technique to trace out wiring and or foil paths on boards or between boards, my fluke MM has a speaker beep feature which helps speed things up.
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-
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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freestar8n
sage
Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 301
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Hi-
Nice job providing these pics.
I would just add my experience with cge kept outdoors. I like to re-seat all connectors and apply some contact cleaner carefully. Also look for spider webs and any other debris. This means taking out the boards and inspecting them, which isn't too hard.
If this is a lightning related problem there may not be much to do - but I would check all these other things first.
If the OP can borrow a different hand control to test - that might be worth a try. And try connecting to the PC port with NexRemote as an alternative, with the hc removed.
Frank
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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Thank you Frank,
I think he did already try the nexRemote path?
Quote:
However, NexRemote would not initialize with the mount.
I'll second that corrosion idea - I noticed all connector (teeth) in the electronics pier and head assy's had discolored (oxidized?) significantly. Which contact cleaner do you use, any recommendation?
I am feeling about this mount the same way as I did with my old VW beetles... hope to have half as much luck in keeping this 'on the road'
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-
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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freestar8n
sage
Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 301
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Quote:
I'll second that corrosion idea - I noticed all connector (teeth) in the electronics pier and head assy's had discolored (oxidized?) significantly. Which contact cleaner do you use, any recommendation?
Hi-
I claim no expertise in this area - so anyone can correct me if it is not advisable - but I use aerosol contact cleaner from Radio Shack. I think it is standard stuff. I spray it briefly on the connectors themselves and dab them clean with a cloth - then seat and re-seat them to the board to clean the board connector also. I avoid getting spray directly on the boards.
The spray comes out violently, so it has to be directed away from the mount and towards the connector held up.
Oh - and the OP should make sure there is adequate voltage to the mount, since under-voltage can cause No Response - I forget it that was mentioned.
Frank
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Chris Rowland
sage
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 270
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As Frank says cleaning and reseating the connectors could help.
It should be possible to check the power to the board. The 5V regulator IC is on the lower left, labelled U11. It should have +12V on the left hand pin, 0V on the centre and the heat sink above it and +5V on the right hand pin.
There isn't much else you can do without special equipment, it's possible that some sort of voltage surge could have killed both motor controllers without showing any obvious traces.
Chris
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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I would avoid the aerosol blast/overspray by using a foam head q-tip, like the ones used for ceaning magnetic recording heads(or ones that have a lint free cloth head as mnade for clean rooms)[I dont have a source for either, maybe a CD clean/repair kit might have something like it?], and spraying the solution onto the q-tip and then wiping/cleaning with it. I did a quick search earlier for the stuff we used in the military but couldn't find it under the name I remember (it's been a while)
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CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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I haven’t been able to get back to my mount problem for awhile, but did start to do some trouble shooting with help from Jim’s photos and directions.
Before jumping into tearing down the pier electronics, I checked the “J5” boards as referenced in the post above. My multimeter read the following for each pin where the cable from the pier plugs in.
Pin Dec
1 - 91 mV
2 - 93 mV
3 - 4.98 V
4 - 2.9 mV
5 - 4.93 V
6 - 109 mV
Pin RA
1 - 105 mV
2 - 106 mV
3 - 4.97V
4 - ~20 mV, lots of drift
5 - 145 mV, drift
6 - 4.94 V
Does this data tell anyone anything as to where to go next with trouble shooting (or what is eliminated)? I get the No Response 17 from the hand controller and no response when trying to initialize NexRemote through the PC port on the pier. NexRemote is my normal mode of operation, just pulled out the hand controller for trouble shooting.
Thanks,
John
--------------------
12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
|
DrBuck
sage
Reged: 12/10/08
Posts: 275
Loc: Susanville, No. Calif.
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John---did you try plugging the HC into one of the AUX ports?---------at least your HC comes on. Mine has been going blank occasionally since I bought it 9 months ago. Its now back at the factory again for the second time. They replaced the HC last spring, had the whole mount for 50 days during the summer but couldn't find the problem. It crashed again a week ago and now they are supposed to replace the electronics in the pier. ----hope that works!! 
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DrBuck
Roll off Roof Observatory,
CGE on concrete and steel pier
Takahashi FS 152 Fluorite apo refractor
Televue 85MM Apochromatic refractor
12 inch LX 200 gps smt uhtc
Nikon D-90 with 18-200mm AF VR lens
Canon 15x50 IS Binoculars
http://www.flickr.com/photos/697650grr/?saved=1
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mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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I get the same No Response 17 regardless of whether the HC is plugged into the Hand Control, Aux 1, and Aux 2 ports.
Given the voltages erad above on the two motor control boards, does anyone know if they indicate where teh problem may be? I'm pretty sure it is not teh hand controller since it was in a box and not connecetd to the scope. The original issue is that NexRemote would no longer connect and I pulled it out to simplify trouble shooting.
Thanks,
John
--------------------
12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
|
DrBuck
sage
Reged: 12/10/08
Posts: 275
Loc: Susanville, No. Calif.
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I just heard from Celestron, and they are replacing both the electronics pier and HC-----hope that works 
--------------------
DrBuck
Roll off Roof Observatory,
CGE on concrete and steel pier
Takahashi FS 152 Fluorite apo refractor
Televue 85MM Apochromatic refractor
12 inch LX 200 gps smt uhtc
Nikon D-90 with 18-200mm AF VR lens
Canon 15x50 IS Binoculars
http://www.flickr.com/photos/697650grr/?saved=1
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
I just heard from Celestron, and they are replacing both the electronics pier and HC-----hope that works
Now that's good news!!
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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John,
Were those the voltages at 'power up' and no buttons pressed?... was only one measurement taken or more than once and averaged? Sorry took a while to notice the post.
[edit] - Also, what were you using as a ground reference for the multimeter?
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-
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
Edited by CounterWeight (10/16/09 02:23 PM)
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mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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If I recall correctly, the voltages were taken after "power up" and the No Response 17 from the HC after it failed to initialize. No buttons pushed.
I used the little screw hole where the polar finder screws in as the ground point. (clean exposed threads).
These were a single measurment.
I went out last night and took the drive assembly off of the electronis pier. Checked out the boards in the pier, nothing obvious.
Tried to repeat the voltages on the motor control boards that I had reported previously, and couldn't reproduce any 5 V readings, nothing but random mV drift.
I'm afraid it's time for me to call Celestron and bite the bullet on shipping it back (out of warranty). THis is beyond my technical capability and patience.
Thanks for your help.
John
--------------------
12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
|
mtber
super member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Apex, NC
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Changed my mind after thinking about how much it will likely cost to ship the RA/Dec assembly and pier from North Carolina to California.
A new motor control board is “only” $158 plus $5 shipping. I’ll bet it would cost close to 2/3rds of that to ship the mount back and forth and have to pay for the board on top of it.
I’m thinking that it is probably the motor control board.
Nexremote – no response
Can’t flash the MC firmware
Hand Control gets No Response 17/16.
That’s two different paths that go through the MC board.
I figure it’s worth the gamble to just replace it and not ship the mount.
The crazy thing is that I have to snail mail a check and Celestron said it would take 15-20 working days to get the board.
John
--------------------
12.5" Discovery Truss Dob
CGE 1100 StarBright XLT
WO ZenithStar 80 FD Anniversary Edition
Stellarvue SV66
Desert Sky Astro DSV-1 Alt/Az mount
Nikon 10x50 Action Extreme ATB
Coronado PST
SkyScout
|
imhotep
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/07
Posts: 1429
Loc: Tampa, FL
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If I could piggyback just briefly...I've read and appreciate this thread very much because I am recently interested in the CGE.
DrBuck, did Celestron give you a timeline for the revisions to this mount? I know at one point the CGE was going to be phased out, then Celestron changed their minds, so I and some of my buddies had been wondering if a revision was on the horizon.
If they make the changes inside of six months I will probably wait to buy one.
--------------------
Curt
8" F5 Newtonian Astrograph
Orion 80ED CUSTOM
Edmund Optics 4.25" 'Palomar' Newtonian, 1968 vintage
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imhotep
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/07
Posts: 1429
Loc: Tampa, FL
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Doh, I think I misunderstood. I thought DrBuck was saying that the CGE in general is going see some parts replaced, but it sounds like he's talking about his own CGE. Sorry to add confusion to an otherwise enlightening thread!
--------------------
Curt
8" F5 Newtonian Astrograph
Orion 80ED CUSTOM
Edmund Optics 4.25" 'Palomar' Newtonian, 1968 vintage
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