Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User
Smo
super member
Reged: 01/19/09
Posts: 144
Loc: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
|
|
From what I have read the Takahashi EM-200 and EM-400 well all of them for that matter are really great mounts, I never doubted it.
However my question is whether or not I should be concerned that they don't seem to have PEC. I have ready that the +/- 5 arc seconds is conservative and autoguiding can easily take that right out.
However the Astro Physics mounts claim +/- 3.5 arc seconds and also ship with the built in PE routine programmed from the factory that can lower that I think down to between 1 and 2 Arc seconds.
I would probably get the AP but there is the matter of the wait time.
So again is the lack of PEC in the takahashi mounts something I should care about?
Yes I will use this mount and scope exclusively for Astro Photography.
-------------------- Russ
20" Obsession F5 with Argo Navis and Servo Cat.
Televue NP127is
Astro-Physics 1200GTO on an AP Portable 10x48 Pier
Astro-Physics 900GTO on an AP Portable 8x42 Pier
SBIG STL-11000 Mono/2" Astrodon LRGB and Ha
DMK 21AU04/OFW/1.25" Astronomik LRGB
|
lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
|
|
I had a Tak NJP and now have an AP 900. The NJP is a solid mount but as you mentioned does not have PEC. The AP 900 IMHO is a bit more solid than the NJP and does have PEC. Do you need PEC...no. Pec will help your mount to make fewer guide corrections though if it is well trained and accurate. If your PEC is well trained you can expect sub arcsecond results. FWIW there is little wait time for AP 900's right now. You can order direct from AP and have the mount in November.
-------------------- Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
|
nik hodges
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 757
Loc: UK
|
|
both top notch high end mounts. I went the AP route and couldnt be happier, rock solid imaging platform and the +/-3.5arc sec PE is conservative in my experience, I measured mine with PEMPro and it was about +/-1.5 uncorrected so looks like i got a good one, cant see any need for PEC at the FL I image at and it guides so well its ridiculous.
i also considered the EM400 and am sure i would have been very happy with that too.
-------------------- AP900gto3
Flurostar 110/TAK TOA 0.75 reducer
Megrez 80mm triplet apo/moonlight focuser
8" LX200R/AP CCDT67 reducer/moonlight focuser
StarlightXpress SXVF-H16 camera/trutek filter wheel
DSI Pro II
Maxim DL/Maxpoint/PEMPro/CCDAP4/Sky6Pro/AdobePS3E
http://www.pbase.com/njh542/images2009
|
HunterofPhotons
sage
Reged: 04/26/08
Posts: 266
Loc: Rhode Island, USA
|
|
Quote:
...I would probably get the AP but there is the matter of the wait time....
As of today, there is no wait time for an AP900.
dan
|
lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
|
|
Quote:
both top notch high end mounts. I went the AP route and couldnt be happier, rock solid imaging platform and the +/-3.5arc sec PE is conservative in my experience, I measured mine with PEMPro and it was about +/-1.5 uncorrected so looks like i got a good one, cant see any need for PEC at the FL I image at and it guides so well its ridiculous.
Mine came in at 3.65 as peak to peak out of the box. Another thing to consider is if you are in the U.S. is that AP's service is fast and prompt. If you have a problem then you simply call AP and they do all they can to talk you through it. In the rare case that you would need to send the mount back it would be a quick turn around. Don't get me wrong I LOVE Takahashi gear but they are on the other side of the world and any major repair usually requires a trip to Japan.
-------------------- Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
|
Dwight J
member
Reged: 05/14/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
|
|
I have a Tak EM 200 Temma 2 and the local club just installed an AP 1200. I don't have experience with the AP900 but the 1200 is very heavy and both cost quite a bit more. The Tak is what I would consider a budget high-end mount (if there is such a thing). If you autoguide, PEC doesn't matter and the EM200 is highly portable, think EQ6 size mount, so if you plan on being portable the Tak is lighter. On some mounts, the PEC can interfere with autoguiding and guiding can be actually worse with it on, although I don't know if this is an issue with the AP mounts. As I write this, my Tak is loaded with a 10" SN, a 3.5" guidescope, 2 ccd cameras,and 55 lbs of counterweights and slews and guides effortlessly. One thing I will say is that Tak accessories are expensive. Just my 2bits worth.
-------------------- LS60THa/B1200
Cerevolo 8" F5 MN
EM200,Meade Research Series & DS2090,EQ6 SkyScan Mts
13.1 Dob, 16" Eq Newt
Meade 10"SN
9X63,16X70,25X100 binos
ToU cam,MX7C,HX916,Canon 300D,LPI
|
lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
|
|
I guess you really have to compare the Em-400 to the Ap 900.
The AP 900 has larger gears, is lighter, breaks down into more managable pieces that are also lighter and has better out of the box tracking specs than the EM-400. Also the 900 has a Goto hand controller, PEC, Parking, and two serial ports. The 900 has larger shafts and servos versus the Tak steppers, 1200x at 12 volts slewing vs the tak 500x at 24 volts. There are two things that the EM-400 has over the AP 900 though. One is the awesome and accurate polarscope and two being the cool slewing sound When you factor in that the AP 900 mount includes shipping the price between these mounts is very close. Either mount is the mount of a lifetime depending on your specific needs and wants. You will be happy with either mount for sure.
-------------------- Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
|
Ken Sturrock
newbie
Reged: 09/26/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Tampa, FL
|
|
I wouldn’t think the lack of PEC is such a big deal if you’re guiding – especially if you’re not shooting at really long focal lengths. Also, as was mentioned, the EM-200 is comparable to the Mach1GTO and the EM-400 is best compared to the AP-900.
I own an EM-200 and have had it for several years. I bought it because the AP Mach1GTO wasn’t available at that time and I fell in love with the polar alignment scope. Some of the other posters started to hint about the other features, beyond PEC, that you might find important to your decision. The lack of a goto handbox has been mentioned, although you say that you’ll be doing imaging so you’ll have a computer and there’s also the option of using a PDA if you want. There are some other Tak/Temma personality quirks that you should know about as they may matter, or not.
My EM-200 Temma II does not have the greatest goto. It’s accuracy is directly related to the quality of your polar alignment, but I frequently have to hop-scotch across the sky to get to a target. For example, if the telescope is pointed to the north east and I decide to image a target in the southwest then I’ll goto a star about a quarter of the way, center the star on the CCD, do a “synchronize” and then go on to another star part of the way to the target. If I hopscotch then Temma will always land the target in the center of the CCD chip. If I try to go straight there, especially with a meridian flip, the Temma will almost always miss the target. I know other people do this trick with other mounts, but the Temma seems to need more help than most mounts. In the course of an evening, it isn’t a big deal because it only adds a couple of minutes to my work flow, but if you have your heart set on automating your imaging work, it may be important. Some of this may be related to the lower resolution encoders, some may be related to the simplicity of the sky model that the Temma uses. I’m sure that a lot of the issue relates to my failure to always take my time in aligning. After all, even with a great alignment scope, if I’m sloppy, the results will be sloppy. Regardless of the reason though – it may be a factor for you too.
Unless you use the ASCOM drivers, the Temma has no ability to park itself or other little niceties. I have used the ASCOM driver with mixed results. It’s a quality piece of software and usually works well, in some cases though, I may get the initialization wrong and the driver will slew the mount in an unexpected manner – like into itself. Many others have GREAT results with the ASCOM driver so I’ll chalk that up to my error. However, it’s the reality for me and it may be for you too. I use “The Sky” and the native driver built into The Sky.
If you plug the autoguider into your camera (or at least, a camera like mine – an ST-2000XM) and the camera is switched off then the Temma will start wandering off of target. If you leave the “speed switch” on the hand controller on the “high” setting then the mount will try to calibrate and autoguide at high speed rather than slow speed. None of these quirks are deal breakers, but every once in a while if I’m not careful, I’ll forget and they will bite me. Lastly – an obvious point – the polar alignment scope kicks butt, but if you are in a location where you can’t see polaris then you’re back to drift aligning. The AP mounts have software to help you get around this issue.
I’d say in summary that the EM-200 works really well and it has very high quality mechanics. From a software angle, it isn’t bad so much as it is more primitive than other manufacture’s systems. The upside of the simplicity is that, well, it's simple. Once you do a polar alignment, you just pick any single star that you like, align it and synchronize the Temma system. FAST!
These are just my experiences, more talented or more careful users may have different results. I do love my EM-200 though and its quirks have in no way made me want to trade it in for a different mount.
-Ken
|
lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
|
|
Good points Ken. The AP mounts have no pointing model either. You align the AP's to a single star as well. So slewing accuracy is directly related to polar alignment. So this is a common area for both mounts.
-------------------- Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
|
Ken Sturrock
newbie
Reged: 09/26/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Tampa, FL
|
|
Thanks Chris! Sweet. Then I truly have no reason to change mounts. Except for that Astro Physics LUST....
-Ken
|
Tim C
sage
   
Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Marietta, GA
|
|
Quote:
I own an EM-200 and have had it for several years. I bought it because the AP Mach1GTO wasn’t available at that time and I fell in love with the polar alignment scope. Some of the other posters started to hint about the other features, beyond PEC, that you might find important to your decision. The lack of a goto handbox has been mentioned, although you say that you’ll be doing imaging so you’ll have a computer and there’s also the option of using a PDA if you want. There are some other Tak/Temma personality quirks that you should know about as they may matter, or not.
My EM-200 Temma II does not have the greatest goto. It’s accuracy is directly related to the quality of your polar alignment, but I frequently have to hop-scotch across the sky to get to a target. For example, if the telescope is pointed to the north east and I decide to image a target in the southwest then I’ll goto a star about a quarter of the way, center the star on the CCD, do a “synchronize” and then go on to another star part of the way to the target. If I hopscotch then Temma will always land the target in the center of the CCD chip. If I try to go straight there, especially with a meridian flip, the Temma will almost always miss the target. I know other people do this trick with other mounts, but the Temma seems to need more help than most mounts. In the course of an evening, it isn’t a big deal because it only adds a couple of minutes to my work flow, but if you have your heart set on automating your imaging work, it may be important. Some of this may be related to the lower resolution encoders, some may be related to the simplicity of the sky model that the Temma uses. I’m sure that a lot of the issue relates to my failure to always take my time in aligning. After all, even with a great alignment scope, if I’m sloppy, the results will be sloppy. Regardless of the reason though – it may be a factor for you too.
Unless you use the ASCOM drivers, the Temma has no ability to park itself or other little niceties. I have used the ASCOM driver with mixed results. It’s a quality piece of software and usually works well, in some cases though, I may get the initialization wrong and the driver will slew the mount in an unexpected manner – like into itself. Many others have GREAT results with the ASCOM driver so I’ll chalk that up to my error. However, it’s the reality for me and it may be for you too. I use “The Sky” and the native driver built into The Sky.
If you plug the autoguider into your camera (or at least, a camera like mine – an ST-2000XM) and the camera is switched off then the Temma will start wandering off of target. If you leave the “speed switch” on the hand controller on the “high” setting then the mount will try to calibrate and autoguide at high speed rather than slow speed. None of these quirks are deal breakers, but every once in a while if I’m not careful, I’ll forget and they will bite me. Lastly – an obvious point – the polar alignment scope kicks butt, but if you are in a location where you can’t see polaris then you’re back to drift aligning. The AP mounts have software to help you get around this issue.
I’d say in summary that the EM-200 works really well and it has very high quality mechanics. From a software angle, it isn’t bad so much as it is more primitive than other manufacture’s systems. The upside of the simplicity is that, well, it's simple. Once you do a polar alignment, you just pick any single star that you like, align it and synchronize the Temma system. FAST!
These are just my experiences, more talented or more careful users may have different results. I do love my EM-200 though and its quirks have in no way made me want to trade it in for a different mount.
-Ken
Ken, I also have an EM200 but have only had it for a few months. I too have to "hopscotch" across the sky but it's not a big deal since I primarily just image with it. I miss the dead on go to accuracy that my CGEM had but the tracking is much better (7 arc sec peak to peak vs. 30 for my CGEM). I'm on the list for a Mach 1 just in case I'm interested when it comes up but the EM200 polar scope will probably keep me from trading when the time comes. I get no drift at 300x after 5 mins when I do a good job with the polar scope. It is so nice to be ready to image even before it's quite dark enough. I too have better luck with the native temma drivers vs. ASCOM. I use Voyager and it has yet to freeze up on me. Lastly regarding the lack of a goto controller, my $275 netbook fills that void nicely and now I prefer it even when just visually observing.
Tim
-------------------- Tim
Some average astrophotos: http://TCardin.zenfolio.com/p355986048
|
Tim C
sage
   
Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Marietta, GA
|
|
Quote:
Good points Ken. The AP mounts have no pointing model either. You align the AP's to a single star as well. So slewing accuracy is directly related to polar alignment. So this is a common area for both mounts.
Really? I thought you could do a multiple star alignment to improve all sky goto with AP mounts? You can only do one star with the Tak.
-------------------- Tim
Some average astrophotos: http://TCardin.zenfolio.com/p355986048
|
lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
|
|
Really the mount has no provisions for modeling. It can be done with third party software such as T point or Max point, so can the Taks though. With no software assistance my AP 900 is within 2 arc minutes most of the time less after a merdian flip. It of course depends on your polar alignment and if your scope is orthagonal with your mount.
-------------------- Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
|
Dan G
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/27/06
Posts: 1761
Loc: Minisink, NY, USA
|
|
I use both my EM-200 and NJP for imaging. Using CCDCommander this is automated and I usually sleep while it runs. I too had goto issues until I started to level my tripod and get my PA within 2 arcmins for both axes. Now the object is typically centered unless I cross the meridian and then it is off a bit. A quick run of Pinpoint LE brings it right on and then I am set on that side of the meridian.
I also use Chuck Farranda's ASCOM driver from TheSky. It is very good and stable. The ability to park the mount is a must when remote imaging.
All said the Taks are very good mounts. I would not use one for remote imaging if the observatory was not in my own backyard though. They do lack that extra SW found in the APs and Paramount.
Dan in NY
-------------------- TV 76, Vixen VC200L, TV NP-127is
EM-200, NJP
ML 8300, ST-402
Tranquility Base Observatory aka "The Shed" by non-tranquil members of the house
|
David Pavlich
Postmaster
   
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8668
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
|
|
Being the mount geek that I am, it seems to me that if you're a visual observer that measures success by blitzing through a ton of objects in a night taking a minute or two on each, a Tak might be quite frustrating.
However, if you're an observer that's not concerned that the slew speeds are slow, a Tak complaint that mystifies me, then the Tak mount will be good for you. The mounts are excellent examples of real craftsmanship. Take it out of the box, put it together, polar align it and start imaging.
Had I not been so enamored with the MI250, the EM400 would have been my choice.
David
-------------------- Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
|
Dean
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/31/04
Posts: 4912
Loc: Bailey Co Elev 8780 feet
|
|
Quote:
My EM-200 Temma II does not have the greatest goto. It’s accuracy is directly related to the quality of your polar alignment, but I frequently have to hop-scotch across the sky to get to a target.
My experience is this is due more to the accuracy of the synch. I had similar issues with my NJP until I started using plate solves to synch the mount. Once I started doing that, the gotos are spot on - even after meridian flips. The same was true with my AP1200 as well.
-------------------- "Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?
|
Smo
super member
Reged: 01/19/09
Posts: 144
Loc: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
|
|
This has been a much more informative post then I thought I would get.
I have decided on the AP 900 however I continue to be tempted to spend another 1500 and get the 1200. I mean 1500 dollars to go from 70lbs to 140lbs...very tempting.
-------------------- Russ
20" Obsession F5 with Argo Navis and Servo Cat.
Televue NP127is
Astro-Physics 1200GTO on an AP Portable 10x48 Pier
Astro-Physics 900GTO on an AP Portable 8x42 Pier
SBIG STL-11000 Mono/2" Astrodon LRGB and Ha
DMK 21AU04/OFW/1.25" Astronomik LRGB
|
Rusty
Postmaster
   
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17727
Loc: Brooker, FL
|
|
Spend the extra money - I've only known two owners of AP900s, and both wished they'd gotten the 1200
-------------------- N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
|
Smo
super member
Reged: 01/19/09
Posts: 144
Loc: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
|
|
Oh man I like your style.
I am an impatient man though and the 900's are apparently shipping now....be several months longer I believe on the 1200.
-------------------- Russ
20" Obsession F5 with Argo Navis and Servo Cat.
Televue NP127is
Astro-Physics 1200GTO on an AP Portable 10x48 Pier
Astro-Physics 900GTO on an AP Portable 8x42 Pier
SBIG STL-11000 Mono/2" Astrodon LRGB and Ha
DMK 21AU04/OFW/1.25" Astronomik LRGB
|
Ken Sturrock
newbie
Reged: 09/26/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Tampa, FL
|
|
Smo: As long as you can lift and carry the AP1200, what's not to like?
Dan & Dean: Thank's for the advice regarding the Temma goto. I'll try these out in the future. Traditionally, I never had luck with Plate Solves. Recently, I started imaging with a higher magnification telescope (800mm vs. 480mm) and the Plate Solve has started to work so using it to sync the mount may be a good option.
-Ken
|
|
10 registered and 14 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Charlie Hein, lineman_16735
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 1160
|
|
|
|
|
|
|