Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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After months of not getting time to work on my mount, I finally madesome progress tonight. My ra shaft assembly didn't quite come apart as easily as on the hypertune videos.
Now that I have gotten my cylindrical brass gears out of their housings my question is is it safe to leave them in a bath of water with a bit of dove dish soap to soak overnight since I don't have a parts washer or anythig fancy. Brass and anodized aluminum won't rust overnight will they?
That synta black grease was like a mix of tar and glue I had the toughest time gettin the ra gears out to start cleaning them. Now to dothe same for the dec gears while I await your responses 
thanks.
Thanks.
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Edited by lineman_16735 (10/23/09 11:22 PM)
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Deven Matlick
Vendor - Criterion Machine Co. LLC
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 84
Loc: Moatsville, WV
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The best way to remove that grease is to use brake cleaner (available at any auto store). I would get a few cans of it and a good stiff brush.
Ps, Its powerful stuff, use it outside!! 
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Sincerely,
Deven Matlick
Criterion Machine Co. LLC
"We Meet Your Criterion"
Rt 1 Box 253A
Moatsville, WV 26405
304-457-5368
dmatlick@westvirginia.com
www.criterionmachine.com
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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I am going with the safer route of orange pumice cleaner, isopropyl alcohol and lots of paper towels.
Still would like to know if water and soap overnight is okay.
Would makethe scrubbing job easier tomorrow.
Thanks!
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Deven Matlick
Vendor - Criterion Machine Co. LLC
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 84
Loc: Moatsville, WV
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Quote:
I am going with the safer route of orange pumice cleaner, isopropyl alcohol and lots of paper towels.
Still would like to know if water and soap overnight is okay.
Would makethe scrubbing job easier tomorrow.
Thanks!
Stay away from pumice (grit bad). You could actually soak the metal parts in the alcohol as long as there is no paint or plastic involved.
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Sincerely,
Deven Matlick
Criterion Machine Co. LLC
"We Meet Your Criterion"
Rt 1 Box 253A
Moatsville, WV 26405
304-457-5368
dmatlick@westvirginia.com
www.criterionmachine.com
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8668
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Completely off topic...HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JOSEPH!
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Thanks I will save the pumice for cleaning my hands and tools afterwards.
Thanks for the birthday wishes too.
I drilled and tapped the holes for the latitude adjustment mod, no issues there… but to get the two 6008 bearings off the declination gear I will need some wood blocks as shown in the hypertune DVD. So I think I will call it a night. I broke the nylon(?) spacers so I will order some Teflon ones like the hypertune people sell.
All you need is one or two spacers for each RA and Dec assembly, right? Has anyone found a good source to just buy the ones you need rather than paying $40 for two spacers you need and many more that you don't??
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Jeffrey Sugden
sage
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 383
Loc: Akron, OH
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Figure out which thicknesses you need. I have leftovers spacers from my rebuild set and maybe I have what you need.
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Jeff
WO ZS 80FD
Celestron FS80
Celestron FS80WA
Meade SN6
Cave Newt 6" F8 (project)
SAC 8-II
Meade LPI
Philips SPC-890
Orion SSAG
Nikon D40
EQ-6 (SynScan upgrade)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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THanks Jeff I really appreciate it!! I am not quite up to that point yet, I spent about 90 minutes tonight cleaning (or trying to rather) the old black tar out of the big brass gear teeth.
Of course I don't know which one is RA and which one is Dec now, watching a hypertune dvd to try to figure that out.
I also took 3 of my 6 6008 48mm bearings and degreased them, and replaced the stock grease (better than the black tar used elsewhere) with superlube. Now they spin much LESS freely than the stock 6008 bearings that I didn't disassemble yet. Did I make a mistake? Should I order the set of 6 new 6008 bearings from one of the hypertune vendors now?
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Ok my (now definct??) Telescope Stability Systems hypertune dvd tutorial says to regrease the 6008 bearings with lithium grease ( I am using SuperLube) so I should be okay there.
Still not happy with how clean I got the worm wheel gears with just paper towel fingernail toothbrush and isopropyl alcohol. So I might try terpentine next. Trying to avoid brake cleaner and gasoline!
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Nightknight
member
Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: The great pacific northwet of ...
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Quote:
....took 3 of my 6 6008 48mm bearings and degreased them, and replaced the stock grease (better than the black tar used elsewhere) with superlube. Now they spin much LESS freely than the stock 6008 bearings that I didn't disassemble yet. Did I make a mistake? Should I order the set of 6 new 6008 bearings from one of the hypertune vendors now?
Are they gritty feeling? If that's the case I would guess you loosened something up but didn't get it out of the bearing completely. If they just don't run-on after giving them an initial spin, that may be that your old lube was all pushed out of the way (essentially dry bearing) and now you have a coat of viscous stuff on the actual bearing surfaces. Just some thoughts without really knowing what condition you're describing, fwiw.
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Chemisttree
member
Reged: 02/05/08
Posts: 27
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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So, how did you degrease the 6008's? I replaced mine and used the grease that they came with. You probably didn't need to do anything anyway since they 'spin' at something like 1 revolution per day! Superlube is definitely overkill in that application. I wouldn't worry about the increased drag with the new grease unless you damaged the plastic dust cover for the bearings (it might be dragging against the end of the bearings). Even then, you probably won't notice it in use.
Try soaking your ring gears in paint thinner (Wal Mart). It does a number on that grease and isn't as nasty-smelling as turpentine.
I don't know what parts you refer to as anodized aluminum but I wouldn't soak any aluminum parts in water since it can corrode aluminum if the pH of your soap is too high (anodized coatings can have chips and defects in them). I don't think water will help anything at all and would avoid it.
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BCB
Undercover Saboteur
Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 5196
Loc: Look over your shoulder
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Brake cleaner on the worm gears is fine.. As far as the "stiffness" after repacking with superlube.. Not to worry at all.. That's normal. They'll be fine.
The only concern I have on the chinese bearings, is what tolerance rating they are, and how well did they actually hold to the rated tolerance.
If you do decide to just change them out, SKF brand is a good choice. Never used the ceramic ones, but from what I've read on them, they are an EXCELLENT replacement.
The most critical part of the whole thing, is getting the worm centerline, and the gear centerline as close to parralel as possible, and then getting the mesh just right.
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Mark
Lost in thought. Please send search party!!!
Astro-Tech 111EDT
Orion 8" F5 Newt w/Moonlight CR-2 focuser
SVP mount w/Meade 497 Autostar GOTO mod
Treeline Observatory
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
Completely off topic...HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JOSEPH!
David
Right back at 'cha, David!
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Ok mineral spirits did the trick for me I finally got all my parts very clean last night. I got the "odorless" kind yet the smell was terribly strong even through my 3M mask. Next is the dry assembly to see what spacers I need.
Of course I didn't do one axis at a time. I found a website that custom makes Teflon washers so hopefully I can save buy just buying 2 instead of a whole set for $40.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Another question. I got ABEC 5 bearings from a skateboard shop and they are REALLY smooth. They are metal sealed on one side rubber gasket on the other.
Should I open those up and lube with lithium grease? Superlube is the only lithium grease I have, I bought a big tube the first time I worked on my Meade lx200 scope an have plenty left, overkill perhaps.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Bump. Would really like to finish this project this weekend.
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BCB
Undercover Saboteur
Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 5196
Loc: Look over your shoulder
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I'd leave the race shields alone. It's damn near impossible to remove and replace the steel side, and the rubber sides race seal can get damaged when removing them. Replacing them is a snap. The trick is removing them without damaging them.
The bearings are be pre lubed. For the speeds their running at, I wouldn't mess with it..
When you install those bearings, place the steel shield facing into the mount, with the rubber side facing out of the mount
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Mark
Lost in thought. Please send search party!!!
Astro-Tech 111EDT
Orion 8" F5 Newt w/Moonlight CR-2 focuser
SVP mount w/Meade 497 Autostar GOTO mod
Treeline Observatory
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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I am not a happy camper.
After months of down time, which itself was not the seller's fault, but I finally realize what was causing the play (a few degrees!) in one of the axes, making it unsuitable for serious photography which I had hoped to undertake.
I thought by borrowing a hypertune dvd, which I have had for months now (thanks Randy....) tearing down and regreasing I would fix the problem, but I see that the holes for the two little bearings (the ABEC 5's I got as replacements) are too big for the bearings to be press fit!!!!!!! I think it might be only the hole nearest the spur gear, it is on the left if the flat side of the housing is facing you.
After watching the video and tearing down, I figured that little "nut" with the two flathead screwdriver slots in it was simply not tightened down enough allowing mucho play side to side, or that the mesh just wasn't right.
Is it salvalgeable? The video clearly shows that the worm by itself should NOT have any side to side play at all before reinstalling. If I wiggle it enough, the bearings can actually fall out.
Bought this on shop and swap, I am going to have a little chat unless a workaround can be found. I bought it in February and thought it was a good deal, but since the seller put in the goto upgrade, I think he knew there was this issue but did not disclose it. I guess statute of limitations of gentlemanly dealing has passed (8 months ago now...) so does anyone know if Orion sells spare parts so that I can get a new worm housing?
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Edited by Joseph Gillman (10/23/09 10:04 PM)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Also I realize my first post had something inappropriate for children. My iPhone autocorrecting function thought "now to do the **DEC** gears" meant something totally different.
Just caught it now, mods please edit because it is too old a post for me to do so myself
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Edited by Joseph Gillman (10/23/09 09:58 PM)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Ok a little calmer now.....
I put the cover that holds the bearing in place, and that eliminates the play so I guess it is usable after all.
Still though the other housing does not do that and on the video I have from telescope stability systems they say there should be no play side to side, you shouldn't need to put the cover in. to prevent it. But I hope to the heavens this will work, I have put way too much time into a mount that hasn't been used in months here...
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BCB
Undercover Saboteur
Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 5196
Loc: Look over your shoulder
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can you take some vid of the play you speak of ?
If I understand you right, the hole is larger then the OD of the bearing your putting back in..
Let me ask you this.. Compare the bearings that came out to the new ones.. Are they an EXACT match in o.d. and width ?? if the new ones don't match, that COULD be the source of your problems. Wish you were closer. I could help you solve this better in person..
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Mark
Lost in thought. Please send search party!!!
Astro-Tech 111EDT
Orion 8" F5 Newt w/Moonlight CR-2 focuser
SVP mount w/Meade 497 Autostar GOTO mod
Treeline Observatory
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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The original bearings had the horizontal play too. It's the hole inthe housing that is too big.
Anyway the black circular caps sort of hold that bearing in place and there is little play now. The other housing and worm was fine without having to put the cap in.
The while worm moved axially because the bearings wouldn't stay in the housing like they do on the video. But hopefully it will be ok and I will resume tomorrow and figure out what spacers I need.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Is the LED for the reticle suppose to be held in by a piece of sctoch tape? What about scotch tape with a finger print on it?
There is a metal looking loop that looks like the LED fits in there but maybe that is just the field of view of the polar alignment scope?
Yes watching the video again it is just taped in place. However the previous owner when doing the GOTO upgrade left most of the tape in the field of view of the polar scope. I will retape it when done so that the tape is out of the way.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Ok I am finally ready to put back together, as soon as I get the proper spacers (the orginal ones broke on me trying to get the axes out!)
Jeff please check your PM box!
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Well jeff has ignored his PM box so I bought some spacers from another cloudynights member. now I am fighting trying to get the mesh just right, which is not easy since there is horizontal play in the worm. I'll try retightening the lock nut but the problem remains that the holes for the two worm gear bearings (the little skate wheel ones) are too big and the bearings slide axially, taking the worm with it.
Also I wish to replace the tapered bearings as sitting out for a while with no grease has caused one to rust. I am looking for Strgazr27's post which was recently quoted telling us which bearings to buy can anyone help find it?
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
I wish to replace the tapered bearings as sitting out for a while with no grease has caused one to rust. I am looking for Strgazr27's post which was recently quoted telling us which bearings to buy can anyone help find it?
Ask and you shall receive...
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Thanks. SKF-USA bearings (made in Germany) arrived tonight. Will hopefully grease em up and install tomorrow and be back in business this weekend.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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this is the worst mount i have ever worked on.
someone help, I cannot get the stupid declination assembly back together. the bronze gear is supposed to just "sliiiiide right in" to the housing that holds the dovetail according to the video and after hammering it to death it only went half way.Can't even get it back out since if I hammer the other way the worm is going to get damaged.
Not to speak for atlas mounts in general but the tolerances on this particular one have REALLY ticked me off.................................................................................................
I feel like Happy Gilmore, Bob Barker: "Just taaaaap it in Happy. Nice and easy!!"
Nice and easy my left foot......
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Edited by Charlie Hein (11/21/09 07:16 AM)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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If I squirt WD40 in there it will be in there forever. The gear wont budge. I had a devil of a time getting it apart too but I slid the worm out the hole first. Now that I put the worm back together decently (bad tolerances on those bearing holes and all) I would prefer not to mess with it again but I guess I might have to now.
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Edited by Charlie Hein (11/21/09 07:17 AM)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Nobody is really answering my questions in this thread!
If it is necessary should I put the dec assembly in the freezer or heat it up? Does the brass gear expand/contract more than the aluminum housing or less?
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tturtle
journeyman
Reged: 03/03/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Florida
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I have attached a pdf that shows the thermal expansion coefficient of different metals. It appears to show that aluminum has a higher coefficient than brass although not a lot higher meaning that the aluminum expands and contracts more than the brass with change in temperature. This would imply that if the brass gear is tight now in the aluminum housing that cooling it would not help as the aluminum would contract more and make the fit even tighter. Following this logic, heating the pieces up (or even just trying to heat the aluminum part) should cause the aluminum to expand more than the brass which would allow the pieces to fit together.
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-tom
CGEM 925
Baader Hyperion Zoom 8-24
6mm TV Radian
G3 Astro Aimer
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Sorry I didn't see this sooner, Joe! Heating up the chassis sounds like a good idea to me. It certainly can't damage anything to try.
Something I noticed when I was working on my mount is that if you don't have things really squared up well as you assemble them then they will jam, sometimes very badly. Instead of trying to tap the assembly in or out to drive it into the hole, give it a good look and try tapping sideways instead in order to square the assembly to the chassis. If you get it right then it should just drop right in.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Thanks will give those ideas a try.
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I've just torn my mount down as well. I bought the Hypertune kit which is on its way now so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
I have lots of experience with similar auto bearings and such, I'm hoping it goes ok. Taking it apart was'nt exactly a joy but it was'nt too bad either. Tolerances are tight with that brass gear lol, I did notice that and was thinking it may be a pain going back in.. Now I know:-)
I'd definatel try a little heat and, this brass gear is not going to tolerate being even a little bit cockeyed going in.. You might think about taking it too the local machine shop and let them press it in. I dont know if they can but they can do other very similar things with auto's, I dont see why not.
Good luck, I need to hear good news from you so I can feel good about all of this now lol:-)
Dan
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AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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jimguy08
member
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 32
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I just finished my rebuild this evening...it's straight forward, especially with a video. Take your time...it's not rocket science.
I re-packed all the bearings (including all the new ones) with a lithium grease rated to -40 degrees F for midwest winter use.
On some of the large bearings, you really have to wack to get them to seat (used a block of wood and a hammer).
Keep all the parts in a tub, I used several small tupperware-type tubs to keep the sub-assemblies seperated.
After it's done, it is so much smoother! Well worth the effort.
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Celestron C102F Flourite w/Moonlite focuser
Orion 80ED w/Moonlite focuser
Astro-Tech AT66 Guidescope
Atlas EQ-G Bluetooth enabled
Orion SSAG
QHY8
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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I got the SKF tapered bearings for 38 shipped and they are made in germany not china. Can't wait tp put em in!
i am now trying to whack the brass gear the other way, I might have to take apart the worm bearing which would be a shame since I got that one seated well. I think I had trouble getting this gear off as well. Should I put it in the oven on lowest temperature? and for how long?? I already put superlube on the brass worm gear teeth, will that stink up the whole house if you heat it? I ask since the wife is having people over tomorrow 
Oh and Jim I am a rocket scientist by day (well helicopter engineer that's almost as complicated!), I know it's not rocket science. I did get all 6 "big" bearings seated (the tech term is 6008 I think) with wood block and many many hits with a hammer. The problem is after I got the mesh set very well with the RA gear, I tried to get the brass Dec gear back into its housing - really the top part of the mount that takes the saddle on its other sie - and that is where I am stuck... pun intended! I am 90% done just have to get the darn thing back where it belongs so I can adjust its mesh and finally put the mount back together at long last. I will upload some pics to show you where I am stuck.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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thats as far as I can bang it in. trouble is that's as far as I can bang it out too! darned thing won't budge.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Quote:
can you take some vid of the play you speak of ?
If I understand you right, the hole is larger then the OD of the bearing your putting back in..
Let me ask you this.. Compare the bearings that came out to the new ones.. Are they an EXACT match in o.d. and width ?? if the new ones don't match, that COULD be the source of your problems. Wish you were closer. I could help you solve this better in person..
I put an original bearing back in to illustrate the problem, now that I removed the worm to more safely whack on the ring gear (really a worm gear but people confuse the *worm* that fits through the bearing hole shown here with the *worm gear* which is the big brass gear that's stuck!). I can slide this in and out either side of the hole in the casting way too easily. It "press-fits" okay at first but then I realize it is cockeyed as when you put the bearing over the worm, which aligns the bearing to the hole, then it pushes in and out if you slide the worm along its axis. The ONLY way to get it good like the video was to use the screw on black cover which was not reattached yet in the video to get good worm installation. The spanner nut only tightens one side not both of the worm gear in its housing. In the video they were press fit in pretty good, much like my stuck Dec brass gear is right now.
This hole is too big, the other housing is too small. Poor tolerances on my mount I hope you guys have less trouble than I am having.
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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THe only reason I started the rebuild was I bought this on Shop and Swap locally, from a well rated seller, and it worked okay but there was about 5 degrees of slop in the right ascension axis. I probably only needed to tighten the spanner nut or just adjusted the mesh-changing setscrews and could have avoided all this. Once I got started though, I got a video from another CN friend, which of course made it look really easy so I figured get the tar-like grease out and relube and things will be even better.
I didn't really understand how the mesh setting setscrews worked until I tore into it and saw what was inside. That's the kind of engineer I am- you can explain something to me step by step but I have to see it for myself to understand it sometimes.
The RA slop was not disclosed by the seller I guess that explains the good price I got. That and the fact tht I had to air it out for 2 weeks before I could use it since it reeked of cigars. 
Please advise with more specific recommendations vis a vis the heating process.... temperature, duration, etc.
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jimguy08
member
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 32
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By the way, I'm an engineer too and I teach at a university.
I simply wasn't plagued with the tolerence problems you seem to have in your sample.
If you have absolutely stuck parts with no hope, best to take the offending parts to a machine shop...they will no doubt be able to rig a puller. Even a reasonably well-equipped automotive repair shop will have the common hydraulic H-frame press to press the parts back together.
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Celestron C102F Flourite w/Moonlite focuser
Orion 80ED w/Moonlite focuser
Astro-Tech AT66 Guidescope
Atlas EQ-G Bluetooth enabled
Orion SSAG
QHY8
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Coromandel
super member
Reged: 02/27/09
Posts: 148
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My sympathies Joe. I think you must have got a lemon! Most people don't have anything like the troubles you're experiencing.
A friend is a science teacher and his school bought a pile of these mounts (the EQ6 Pro) which he is playing with almost every day and he reckons that every one of them was good to go right out of the box. Only one of them needed any work at all and that was to loosen the collar on the CW shaft because it was making the dec axis too stiff. Aside from that they all track and slew beautifully and have relatively low PE. His piles of magnificent astro images bears that out!
Good luck and I hope you get it sorted out because the Atlas/EQ6 is basically a very good mount!
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I fully agree at this point. I know we are all trying to save a little money but I would consider 30 bucks or something like that a pretty good deal to have these pressed in at the machine shop.
I have a local NAPA auto store that has their machinist around back, they are super nice in there and are definately creative/ innovative sorts of people so think about that before too much more banging.. Those guys might even enjoy something different like this after pressing pilot bearings and boring engine blocks all day long:-)You really would get an expert mechanical eyeball on it, these guys are super great at this sort of thing...
Machine shops in the yellow pages..
GL again, Dan
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AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Ok I got it out. I removed the worm as shown in my last picture, got it started by using the rubber handle of a needle nose pliers that I didn't care about (didn't damage them) opening the pliers all the way made an almost perfect fit around the ring worm gear. after getting it started it was of no further help so then 200 hammer hits to the (thankfully strong!) worm housing (the black painted piece) it came apart finally.
A few thoughts: It wouldn't help to heat it to get it in, because then once it cooled and contracted, the gear would be connected all the time to the housing. That means, you can't unlock the clutch to move the mount manually as it is so tight that it is always in contact!
Since I did (stupidly!) not work on one axis at a time I think I likely put in the RA gear into the Dec housing. Maybe if I switch them the other one will o in easier, if not I am stumped!
If I did get help at a machine shop, they'd seat it flush and then I should be able to spin the brass gear inside the housing yes? Otherwise it would be tight all the time like I describe above.
Thanks for making this thread active again, I will keep you posted. Note the edge of the dark region that's how far I was able to get it in. Might have hit something in the clutch clamp hole? I could get more of the original grease out but you'd think grease alone wouldn't prevent it from getting back together.
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Edited by Joseph Gillman (11/22/09 12:26 AM)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Talk about bad tolerances, I tried all 6 6008 bearings, and each one fit loosely into this side of the ring gear. I can press it in without a hammer and then when I turned it upside down the bearing would just plop out!
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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PS even if I stwitched the brass gears by mistake I measured them and they are within 6 thousandths of each other, but I guess when press fitting that's enough?
What I don't understand is if they are press fit so, how can the clutch work to move the axis manually?
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I think its tight for you because there is no way on earth to keep it all straight and plumb while pushing/ tapping the two parts together... The smallest amount of edges rubbing is just preventing you and the further you get the tighter it gets because its getting slightly more crooked, probably not even enough to see by eye but it doesnt take much. If you could tell with each tap, which side is going down and which is not you could concentrate but its not easy.. there's just too much surface contact on the sides but I think once its all together and assembled it should rotate better than it did before based on all reports.
When I took everything apart I couldnt turn that gear by hand and I tried hard.. that was with everything taken apart and no other forces acting on it so, it is seemingly stiff when disassembled.
I cant think of any "back yard" way to keep that straight enough but then again, other's here are getting through this Hypertune so its got to be doable:-)
I'll send Nils a PM, he helped me before on this and has experience too...
Dan
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AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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I agree with DanB, it was *definitely* not square as you tried to put the pieces together, and this is certainly what is causing the binding.
See the attached image - one side of the housing is 5 pixels higher than the other. This is plenty enough off square to cause all kinds of grief putting this back together.
It is for certain binding on the shaft, Joe - not on the housing - the shaft is where the tight tolerances are here. Try test fittling that loose bearing of yours to the shaft without the wheel in place, using a light lube on the mating surfaces. If you can't slide it onto the shaft and remove it again then maybe you want to try some fine sandpaper on the shaft, or this may be the time to go to your machinist friend to get the shaft or the bearings milled just a tiny bit so that they fit well.
When you go to put this together you might want to put the DEC housing part in a clamp (see this image) to hold it steady (clamp it where your hand is holding the part in the photo with the shaft facing up) and then lower the worm wheel into the housing, trying your best to keep it square on the shaft so it will not bind, and tapping gently on the brass part of the wheel below the gear to square things up if it starts to bind. The key is to be very gentle here. When you get it right it should slide right on.
Charlie
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Thanks for the ideas but I wouldn't read too much into the pixel analysis becausethatnpic was taken with the worm still installed and it could have been cockeyed because of that. I agree it must not have been straight but I don't think it was tha far off either.
Once it is in though, I want to confirm that the gear should spinRather freely inside the housing unless the manual clutch clamp is locked down right? I dd notice that the edge of the clutch hole inside the hosing was a but sharp and if you notice, that's as far as I got. I will try to file that down as maybe that was part of the problem after all.
Will try your suggestion tonight though it's a shame I missed another nice night out.
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
I want to confirm that the gear should spin rather freely inside the housing unless the manual clutch clamp is locked down right?
Absolutely. Otherwise it's always engaged.
Quote:
I did notice that the edge of the clutch hole inside the hosing was a but sharp and if you notice, that's as far as I got. I will try to file that down as maybe that was part of the problem after all.
Folks have milled the inside of that part or the brass drum of the worm wheel to keep the clutch from engaging too easily, but the clearances there are several orders of magnitude larger than the clearance between the shaft and the inside race of the big bearings that ride on it. Seems to me that it's one of three possibilities here: either the top and bottom bearings are not square wrt. each other and are binding on the shaft (in which case the bearing nearest the gear would stop very suddenly right at the polished part of the shaft) or the whole worm wheel assembly was out of square wrt. the shaft and is binding on the shaft (either way it's still possible that the wheel can turn on its bearings but cannot get any further up the shaft), or in addition to one of those problems the whole shaft/wheel assembly is jammed in the Dec housing (in which case nothing turns and everything is jammed up because the Dec housing prevents it).
I guess now that it's out you can't know for sure, but that would be the way to tell for sure.
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Nils_Lars
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 3422
Loc: Santa Cruz Mountains , CA
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I had a heck of a time with my new bearings sliding over the shaft and I got worried I had gotten it stuck and was not getting it back off.
I work on cars all day long so this is very similar and I wasnt afraid to take and hammer and a block of wood to gently tap it straight again and then it started sliding.
When I went to put it back on the final time I did run some 500 grit paper and I smoothed the shaft out a lot especially right around that sharp edge where it goes into black and I made sure the shaft and inside of the bearings was lubed well.
I did find a point of binding was actually the setting circle ring , I had tightened the thumbscrews down to tight and it was causing the housing to squeeze in.
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Erik
Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Quote:
I want to confirm that the gear should spinRather freely inside the housing unless the manual clutch clamp is locked down right?
I see what you are getting at.. That, how can it be this stiff and still turn freely after fully seated.. but mine turned freely when fully assembled then, after I disassembled everything I could not turn that brass gear inside its seating at all by hand and I tried. This was before I tapped anything out so dont let it decieve you.
At the same time I would hate to be telling you this and you really do have something going on. But that gear was very stiff with everything taken apart but was turning freely while still on the mount fully assembled.
Charlie has some good points and agree, its one of those things. I'm chewing fingernails for you lol... I should have my kit early this week and if you are still having problems then I may be able to catch up to you and either confirm or deny the same issue's.
If this is any consolation, I havent had a clear sky in a couple of month's and this is supposed to be "sunny central Oregon" heheh...
Hang in, you'll get it soon, somehow someway!!!
Dan
--------------------
AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Quote:
I had a heck of a time with my new bearings...
Awesome Nils, thanks for coming, you're a real astro hero!!
Between you and Charlie I feel good about this now!
Dan
--------------------
AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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My Bearing slid over the shaft quite easily after tapping it a few times around it's circference to get it straight. So it might be that I switched the brass gears from declintion to RA. I started out keeping things straight but by the time I went to clean with the mineral spirits months later (yeah I know) I lost track of what was what. Shame because I think for a first crack at it I got the RA mesh very good. So I think if you are more careful than I am and watch the video a couple times before embarking on this you'll be ok. That still doesn't prevent the worm housing bearing holes being too big, I hope you don't have that issue.
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jimguy08
member
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 32
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As a thought, perhaps try another set of worm shaft bearings? They are not very expensive and several types of 608-2ts (8x22x7) bearings are available on vxb.com.
To keep from mixing parts, best to finish the RA sub-assembly first, keeping the DEC sub-assembly intact and in another container.
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Celestron C102F Flourite w/Moonlite focuser
Orion 80ED w/Moonlite focuser
Astro-Tech AT66 Guidescope
Atlas EQ-G Bluetooth enabled
Orion SSAG
QHY8
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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
Reged: 05/07/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Hi guys,
I didn't know this forum was going on or I would have jumped in earlier. I usually monitor the Yahoo forums. I know that some of you did not buy your DVDs or kits from Deep Space Products but I happy to help if I can.
There is a lot of stuff in this thread so I won't try to address everything here until someone posts a specific question for me. That said, I usually do not recommend replacing the six axis shaft ball bearings unless you can feel that there is something wrong with them. Nor do I recommend disassembling them to clean and regrease them. These bearings are built for use in things like ATVs so they can withstand thousands of RPMs so unless they are defective or full of foreign matter, they are overkill for these mounts and really should be fine as is. While they could be upgraded to ceramic hybrid or ceramic, I just don't see that as being cost effective in a mount of this caliber. The worm gear ball bearings are inexpensive enough to make it worth upgrading but not the axis ball bearings.
Everything should slide back together smoothly. You need to make sure that the bearings, ring gears and axes are lubricated before trying to slip anything together. The slightest misalignment when sliding things back together will drive you nuts but once the ball bearings are on the part of the axis casting where they sit, everything should slide easily. If it does not then start over. While a certain amount of hammering may be necessary at times, be careful with this. Once the ball bearings are seated inside the ring gears, hammering should generally not be necessary. It is getting them seated in the ring gears that can require hammering but even then if you are having to do much more than just tapping around the outer edge then you are probably misaligned. Hammering too hard can damage the ring gear by scoring the bearing socket.
If you are using new bearings an are having trouble getting them on the axis shaft then you might want to just try sliding the bearing on the shaft without the ring gear to make sure that it is not a size problem. Some sanding and polishing of the ring gears and axis shafts is OK when necessary but I try to do as little as possible because you don't want to loose the relatively tight design tollerances. Also, try not to use too much lubricant whether it is SuperLube, lithium grease or something else. You need the parts to be slippery but if you put too much in there it will just gum things more than lubricate them and it will have a tendency to attract more dust and dirt. Relatively thin coatings are the way to go.
I will try to keep track of this thread. I am also happy to answer e-mails at dsproducts@cox.net.
Ed Thomas
Deep Space Products.
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jimguy08
member
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 32
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Ed...are you the guy on the video? In any case, there is an edit you should do on that video. In the video, you show the brass ring gear being placed over the DEC shaft, and then a little later you say something like "this goes on differently". Then you do it correctly by placing the housing first over the DEC shaft and then the ring gear. I was following your steps on the video hitting the play/pause button (as many people will be doing) so I had to re-do that step. A simple editing job would fix the video.
Another thing about your video....I thought the Telescope Stability System (now out of business) video did a better job than yours in describing adjustment of worm gear mesh when everything is on the tripod.
For that matter the TSS video shows assembly of the mount on the tripod in the final steps, your video shows assembly with the mount on a wooden block. It is far easier to assemble on the tripod.
Just my minor quibbles on an otherwise good video.
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Celestron C102F Flourite w/Moonlite focuser
Orion 80ED w/Moonlite focuser
Astro-Tech AT66 Guidescope
Atlas EQ-G Bluetooth enabled
Orion SSAG
QHY8
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jimguy08
member
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 32
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Joe...did you end up fixing any play or slop (horizontally and vertically) of the worm shafts in the worm housings? If not, there could be trouble and frustration ahead when you use the mount.
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Celestron C102F Flourite w/Moonlite focuser
Orion 80ED w/Moonlite focuser
Astro-Tech AT66 Guidescope
Atlas EQ-G Bluetooth enabled
Orion SSAG
QHY8
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Jim I removed the play in the worm itself by tightening the spanner nut on the side opposite the spur gear and tightening the cover on the side with the spur gear. That way there is no side to side play. I only had side to side play along the worm axis. With the new ABEC 5 skateboard bearings it is very smooth. Maybe they aren't supposed to slide out on their own without the spanner nut (the one with two notches) and the cover but if it works this way I'm happy.
ALso I apologize for crying wolf. I switched the brass gear that I previously secured to the RA axis and tried it on the Dec. Slides on nice and smooth. Of course!!!  Now to refigure out my spacer situation and possibly get it back together again. I've done and redone those calcs a few times now so it won't be hard.
No problems getting it back in now thanks to all for your sugestions. User errror here. If I get everything back together in the next hour, I can take it with me to DARK skies at my inlaws this week!
So do one axis at a time and save yourself a lot of heartache. Those 6 thousandths sure made a difference. 
Trust me I analyze aerodynamics a lot better than doing mechanical things. It IS safe to fly!!!!!!
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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I got the mount mostly back together. It is very hard to turn in RA did I use too much grease or not enough "thickness doesn't matter" spacer between the ra brass gear 6008 bearing and the tripod piece's 6008 bearing? Will take the rest with me on vacation maybe I will get to actually try it out soon??
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Joe, is it hard to turn with the clutch disengaged, or when turning the transfer gear trying to set the mesh?
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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I did not reinstall the clutches yet. It is hard to turn and I had to hammer it to go in straight. Not hammering as hard as when I had the wrong gear in there but still hard nonetheless. I am hoping it is just too much grease as when I reach into where the motors go to test the RA mesh it is good an it moves the mount fairly easily. Strange that I can't with all my might turn it by hand but the worm gear turns it just fine.
Also I put back the counterweight shaft and it seems that if I leave the counterweight shaft a little loose I can easily turn the dec axis by hand. But if I tighten the shaft I cannot.
I greased up the new skf German bearings and installed them.
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Nils_Lars
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 3422
Loc: Santa Cruz Mountains , CA
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Maybe you over tightened the preload race bearing?
The first time I put mine back together I cranked it down and then when I backed it off to a little more then hand tight it was much smoother.
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Erik
Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Quote:
Maybe you over tightened the preload race bearing?
The first time I put mine back together I cranked it down and then when I backed it off to a little more then hand tight it was much smoother.
Ok, I got my Hypertune video's and materials today, whoohoo.. We're on the same page now:-)
I agree with Lars, that nut cant be overtightened, its more of a keeper than a fastener really.
The guy in the video turns the axis by hand back and forth while tightening that nut, when it reaches a point of resistance he then backs it off again to rotate easily and smoothly then tightens the set screws, done deal. Real similar to doing wheel bearings if you've ever done that. I dont know if this helps or not. Tomorrow I will dig into mine finally. I only have a couple of more things to clean up then I will begin assembly too.
Thanks again for all the help Nils (and everyone else) the video was pretty good and you're right, the auto experience is a huge payoff here 
I'll check back as I'm moving along and let you guys know how mine is going back together.
Dan
--------------------
AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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I'm not on the same page what bearing are you referring to?
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 832
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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If I understand Erik (who I've been calling Nils:-), he is talking about that threaded nut on the end of the counterweight shaft that keeps the bearings from falling out of the bottom and adds tension too that axis.
The guy in the video rotates the axis back and forth with one hand while at the same time hand turning that nut until there is resistance or friction, then he backs the nut back off just enough to where it turns freely again.
I hope I'm on the same page.. Maybe I just got excited because I got all of my stuff in lol...
Dan
--------------------
AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2782
Loc: Aston, PA
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Ok so I noticed that tooso I guess that is normal. I am away from my mount till Sunday so happy thanksgiving everyone.
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