jeffweiss9
member
Reged: 11/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
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I've narrowed down my purchasing choice for a light GEM mount to replace my heavy LX90 fork mount to save my back to either the Orion Sirius EQ-G or Losmandy GM-8. This mount is for imaging/autoguiding, not visual, and I want to go to ~15 minute subs with up to a 30 lb instrument load but no more than 21 or 22 lb lifting (head) weight to avoid triggering/aggravating back problems. I've read both manuals (having eliminated SXD based on that and s/w issues raised in posts) and from that and postings here, it seems the GM-8 has a good chance of meeting those accuracy requirements. Other postings have said the Orion Atlas was as accurate as the G-11. Can anyone make a similar claim about the Orion Sirius and the GM-8? I'm very impressed with the GM-8 manual's focus on precision but if you can do the same job at 1/2 the price....
Thanks.
Jeff
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LX90GPS 8"
SVR90
AT66ED
DSI Pro II (2)
AIP4WIN, PS CS2
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RAKing
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 2087
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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You want to carry a 30 pound load for imaging? With long exposures? Sorry - my answer would be "Neither".
I owned (and loved) my GM-8. If you set it next to a Sirius you would not hesitate to take the Losmandy mount. The fit and finish are far superior. Both of these mounts work well for their designed tasks, but both of these will be maxed out with a 30 pound load and would even be marginal for visual observing with that much weight.
Most manufacturers rate their mounts for the absolute maximum they can safely carry and they don't care if the tripod is shaking or the mount is wiggling. If you want to get decent results with an imaging rig, cut that marketing stuff in half.  I was able to get reasonable results with the GM-8 and a 25 pound load - for viusal use only. Imaging would have been dicy at best.
I'm sorry about your back. I also have problems with mine and it stinks when it limits your hobby. But for the imaging load you are considering, you need a bigger mount.
My .02,
Ron
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Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.
Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.
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jeffweiss9
member
Reged: 11/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
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Thanks, Ron, for pretty effectively bursting my bubble. Must be the meds that led to my wishful thinking. If true, then that would push me into the next weightier class of mounts that I can afford (Atlas, G-11, CGEM). With head/total weights of 36/76, 36/92 and 41/75 lbs, those probably are beyond my limits and puts me back to square one. I guess I can argue that the heads for these GEM's only have to be raised to about waist height vs. the ~36 lbs required to be raised to shoulder height for my LX90 fork mount and wedge, but its doubtful I can/should be doing that.
The only other solution I can think of would be to go with one of the lighter mounts mentioned originally but restrict myself to off-axis guiding, instead of autoguiding, so only one scope at a time has to go on the mount. That would get my total load down to 13 to 22 lbs and, although introducing other restrictions on the imaging I could do, it would at least keep me doing it.
Any other comments/suggestions greatly appreciated as I'd dearly like to stay in the hobby.
-Jeff
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LX90GPS 8"
SVR90
AT66ED
DSI Pro II (2)
AIP4WIN, PS CS2
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RAKing
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 2087
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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Jeff,
I'm sorry my reply was what it was, but I have a very similar physical problem and have been forced to scale back a lot of my dreams accordingly. In fact, I just had to virtually give away a brand new C11 because every time I tried to use it I was stuck in bed for a day afterward. 
Here are a couple things to consider: First, if you are planning to use your 8 inch SCT for imaging, none of the mounts have to be lifted very high. Keep the tripods at their lowest setting. I used an Atlas before I went with the GM-8 and it wasn't too bad. I made up a carrying strap so I could move it around easily and would be happy to show you how I did it.
Another option is to consider a smaller/lighter imaging scope. That would reduce your total load significantly. My imaging scope was a Celestron 6 inch SCT and it worked fine with a small 80mm refractor as a guide scope. The total load was still more than a GM-8 liked, but the Atlas could handle it very well. I still have my imaging gear, but don't do much of it anymore. I prefer visual observing now.
More food for thought,
Ron
--------------------
Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.
Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.
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jeffweiss9
member
Reged: 11/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
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Ron-
I commiserate; it's brand new for me so the dreams fall hard. I was planning to sell the LX90 8" SCT as just too heavy a lift onto the wedge, (tripod is already at near-minimum height) and had already switched to lighter imaging scopes. My principle imaging scope for the past year has been an SVR90 6-lb carbon fiber, rather than the SCT, and I also image occasionally with a AT66ED 4-lb scope for wider fields so those are pretty lightweight scopes. I still like an 8" for smaller targets and was thinking of getting an AT8RC (carbon 15 lbs) but going to a 6" is definitely an idea (C-6s is only 9 lbs; Orion 6" RC is 12 lbs although the non-carbon AT6RC is 13 lbs or only 2 less lbs than their carbon 8"). Even the C-6s 6", however, ought to give a similar total load with guide scope etc to what you had but which you say really wanted an Atlas mount, rather than a GM-8.
Since I'm still a committed imager, it does seem like I've either got to go for the larger mount or retreat to OAG-only with single scopes, if any, that have enough back-focus to allow that. It may take some time and more thinking/ideas to figure this out.
Thanks tremendously for your inputs.
-Jeff
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LX90GPS 8"
SVR90
AT66ED
DSI Pro II (2)
AIP4WIN, PS CS2
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joelwhicker
super member
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 180
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IMHO the EQ-G is not a back saving experience. I had one which I promptly sold. Just too much weight to lug around without the accuracy you ultimately want.
I ran all the way up the scale, but for the money/weight/price a nice used AP-400 GTO is my choice. It's probably not going to sling around 30 lbs for imaging, but can handle about 20. I used an AP-130 EDF and SBIG camera without issue. I could carry the mount and tripod in one trip and the OTA in another.
And for the record, I have back spasms even if I look at something heavy.
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Joel
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BlueGrass
member
Reged: 07/25/09
Posts: 77
Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
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One thing that I've purchased for my EON80 so I could autoguide and image with it, is this off axis guider:
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=photo_accessories/~pcategory=astro-imaging/~product_id=05521
It took awhile to figure out the extensions to use so that my SSAG CCD and 1000d would achieve focus. I haven't used it on my 8" SCT but had that in mind when I bought it. I am hoping that I can get both CCDs in focus with it. It can replace a separate guidescope, rings, top dovetail, etc and maybe an additional CW. This would eliminate quite a few pounds and get your mount requirements down. Maybe someone could post with a similar setup. Back problems can be a real killer, my own sometimes are almost paralyzing. Good luck.
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C8 / EON 80 APO
CGEM / CG5
ST80 with SS AG setup
Canon 1000d
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Quote:
With head/total weights of 36/76, 36/92 and 41/75 lbs, those probably are beyond my limits and puts me back to square one. I guess I can argue that the heads for these GEM's only have to be raised to about waist height vs. the ~36 lbs required to be raised to shoulder height for my LX90 fork mount and wedge, but its doubtful I can/should be doing that.
Hi,
If you are not afraid of using an Allen Key (Hex Key) and untighten and tighten 4x 1/4"-20 allen screws, then you can easily take off the DEC assembly of the G11 and so you have 2 pieces to lift and not one.
It takes maybe max 3 minutes to screw the DEC assembly onto the RA assembly on the G11.
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regards Rainer
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 377
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Take a look at the CGEM. A lot of good things going for it, Servo's over stepper motors, also probably the best polar alignment routine on the market and takes Losmandy D's as standard. It also holds 10# more than the GM-8 as well. You can also get the mount complete for the cost of a Gemini upgrade to the basic GM-8.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 732
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Well for accuracy you can do out-of-the-box or you can factor in the Ovision upgrade for your G11. That means you have a potential there that you don't have with the EQ-G.
http://www.astromart.com/article/article.asp?article_id=663
I can't tell you what is in your weight limit. I consider the G11 manageable, but I also use a C14, and consider the C11 "what I would downsize to" if I couldn't hack the C14. Or a 9.25! Sweet scope!
I think the OTA issue points to the need of either a stepstool for dropping the OTA into the GEM, or a pier that has adjustable height. The problem with these OTAs is the "heave" at shoulder height. If you had it down at your gut the leveraged stress on your body would be MUCH less.
regards
Greg N
--------------------
"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Hi Jeff,
I don't see any reason why either the GM8 or the Sirius mount couldn't handle the SVR90 and the AT66ED dual mounted, one as a guide scope, the other for imaging, and vice versa. In fact it's a pretty sweet combination for a mount that size. You could spend many happy nights imaging a variety of objects. I think either one of those mounts would be capable of handling even a slightly longer focal length scope like a SV102 or SV105 in combination with the AT66ED, something under 1000mm and 10 lbs and not too long physically.
You might also think about a guide scope smaller than the AT66ED. I've seen 50mm finder scopes converted into guide scopes. There's also the KWIQ Guider which is essentially a finderscope with a QHY5 guide camera that mounts onto your imaging scope. I don't think you can get much lighter than that!
Just a few things to think about!
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Jeff,
I completely empathize. I have a CGE that I normally keep permanently mounted. A couple months ago, in a pinch, I took it down headed to a remote site for a star party. The CGE is a pretty bulky/heavy mount and it became clear that for me it was not the mount to take remote. The next day I ordered a GM-8 and I'm quite happy with it.
The GM-8 is much more manageable in size and weight, and so far has done what I've asked of it. However, I've only been imaging with short focal lengths and about 18 lbs of gear. I use an 80mm APO, ST series camera, and modified 50mm finder & DSI as a guider. I'm thinking though that with some careful setup and tweaking of the guider I should be able to get good images using my 6" SCT (although I'll start out with a focal reducer on it to shorten the FL up to 1000mm or so).
Just my experience as a new GM-8 user.
Good luck with which ever mount you end up with,
al
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al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 377
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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The OP is looking for something in the GM-8 goto price range doesn't this rule out the G-11? The Ovision worm would be 1/3rd the cost of the EQ-G without factoring in any mount to put it on.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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Craig
Vendor (Stark Labs)
Reged: 09/16/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Irvine, CA
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Quote:
The only other solution I can think of would be to go with one of the lighter mounts mentioned originally but restrict myself to off-axis guiding, instead of autoguiding, so only one scope at a time has to go on the mount. That would get my total load down to 13 to 22 lbs and, although introducing other restrictions on the imaging I could do, it would at least keep me doing it.
I'm not sure what you mean here as there is no need for a separate guide scope to run autoguiding. You can just as easily hook a guide cam up to an OAG and guide through there. I do this with my QSI "wsg" and a good buddy does it with his TS (that thin jobbie APM America sells) OAG rig. You lose weight off your mount and lose problems with differential flex. It can be a bit tougher to find a guide star, but if you're not at very long focal lengths (which, in my latest column here I argue against anyway) it's not so bad.
Craig
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Stark Labs Astrophotography software
Borg 101 ED f/4, C8, and too many cameras to mention
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Hi,
One of the problems in using a GM-8 with 30pounds of equipment for imaging is the original flimsy tripod...
If you want to image with a GM-8 get a G11 tripod. No necessity to make some adapters. The GM-8 fits nicely into the original G11 tripod.
--------------------
regards Rainer
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
if you're not at very long focal lengths (which, in my latest column here I argue against anyway) it's not so bad
Craig,
Nice article...with my modest setup you have given me a reason to hope! (FYI guys...the article can be found on CN's home page).
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
I've narrowed down my purchasing choice for a light GEM mount...to either the Orion Sirius EQ-G or Losmandy GM-8...it seems the GM-8 has a good chance of meeting those accuracy requirements...Other postings have said the Orion Atlas was as accurate as the G-11. Can anyone make a similar claim about the Orion Sirius and the GM-8?
I don't know if this exact question has been addressed yet, weight limits and focal lengths aside. I've used an Orion Sirius mount, but not an GM-8. From past reports on the tracking accuracy of both mounts, my guess would be that the Sirius mount has periodic error in the +/- 10 arc-second range out of the box, while the GM-8 is probably closer to +/- 5 arc second. For comparison, my current CG5-GT has native PE in the +/- 20 arc-second range. With autoguiding any of those mounts should be able to achieve +/- 1 to 2 arc-second PE, if the curve is smooth enough (I have no reason to suspect they shouldn't be, but the more mass-produced mounts do not have as much QC and more tolerance variation).
As Craig has pointed out in his post and article, there are more factors than just weight to consider. How long an exposure one can take is a factor of scope focal length, camera pixel size, polar alignment accuracy, the mounts PE and even where you are imaging in the sky. All those factors will affect whether or not you will get star trailing.
Niels Noordhooek wrote a little program called Star Trails that helps bring those factors together. Input your various camera, scope, and mount characteristics and make adjustments as desired to reduce the "Pixel Curve Size" to be less than 1 x 1. Theoretically, that 1 x 1 figure means that a photon of light is not traveling across more than one pixel during the exposure. The program does not account for the blurring affect of the atmosphere that Craig was talking about or differential deflection between guide camera and imaging, but it can give you a basis for comparing various focal length scopes with different cameras and exposure sitting on different mounts.
For example, with my AT66ED and Canon XSi camera with a guided PE of +/- 4 arc seconds, a 5 minute exposure should be attainable, while anything longer will start to become a problem. Likewise, if I decide to image with my C6 SCT and XSi and at the same PE settings, I'm limited to 45 second exposures without star trailing. I suspect either the Sirius mount or the GM-8 mount should be capable of +/- 2 arc second (or better?) guided PE.
While it may not perfectly illustrate your situation, the program might help you get a grasp on what you're up against with long focal length scopes and long exposures.
BTW, I was very intrigued by Craigs comments on off-axis guiding and hadn't really thought much about using one. I found APM America's Off Axis Guider's webpage and think this could be a viable solution to the traditional 2 scope imaging setup. (I'm adverse to heavy scopes and mount as well.  )
Regards,
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Tapio
super member
Reged: 09/24/06
Posts: 157
Loc: Tampere, Finland
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I'll share my experiences.
I have the HEQ5 Pro (aka Sirius) mount.
My two basic imaging setups are
1. Equinox 80 Pro with KWIQ Guider (500mm imaging focal length with 7x50 finder as a guide scope).
2. C8 (usually with f/6.3 reducer) and a Scopos Observer 62 guide scope (1350mm imaging focal length and 520mm guiding focal length).
I have tweaked now my setup so that I can take 10 min subs with both combos.
GM8 would handle these combos as well, I think.
AP Mach1 would be tempting choice (light and accurate) but a bit pricey.
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Tapio
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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 732
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Quote:
From past reports on the tracking accuracy of both mounts, my guess would be that the Sirius mount has periodic error in the +/- 10 arc-second range out of the box, while the GM-8 is probably closer to +/- 5 arc second. For comparison, my current CG5-GT has native PE in the +/- 20 arc-second range.
Patrick
Out of the box performance on most mounts is quite variable from unit to unit, including Losmandies. We do have occasional reports of 5 or 6 arc seconds peak to peak on a G11, we get a lot less information on G8s most imagers (correctly, in my view) head for the g11. But for any given worm configuration, the 180 teeth on the G8 will provide only half the performance as a G11. That is a worm which delivers 5 arc seconds peak to peak on a G11 will deliver 10 arc seconds peak to peak on a G8.
I would guess that G8s "as delivered" are more often in the 10 to 15 arc mins peak to peak range and that occasionally one which is really dialed in will probably perform at half that. I would expect teh Sirius mounts also have variability.
regards
Greg N
--------------------
"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
|
Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
Out of the box performance on most mounts is quite variable from unit to unit, including Losmandies. We do have occasional reports of 5 or 6 arc seconds peak to peak on a G11, we get a lot less information on G8s most imagers (correctly, in my view) head for the g11. But for any given worm configuration, the 180 teeth on the G8 will provide only half the performance as a G11. That is a worm which delivers 5 arc seconds peak to peak on a G11 will deliver 10 arc seconds peak to peak on a G8.
I would guess that G8s "as delivered" are more often in the 10 to 15 arc mins peak to peak range and that occasionally one which is really dialed in will probably perform at half that. I would expect teh Sirius mounts also have variability.
Greg,
Native PE aside, the real question is what will the autoguided PE be? I'm just guessing here, but I suspect either of the mounts in question should be capable of +/- 1 arc second, and probably better when guided. Given that, how long of a focal length scope can be used and how long of an exposure can be taken. I think that's what Jeff is trying to get a handle on and is why Niels PE modeling program could be useful. Try it out...see if it compares to what your experience tells you.
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
My two basic imaging setups are
1. Equinox 80 Pro with KWIQ Guider (500mm imaging focal length with 7x50 finder as a guide scope).
2. C8 (usually with f/6.3 reducer) and a Scopos Observer 62 guide scope (1350mm imaging focal length and 520mm guiding focal length).
I have tweaked now my setup so that I can take 10 min subs with both combos.
Hi Tapio,
What imaging camera are you using with your setup? What is the pixel size?
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Thought it might be helpful to show a sample of out-of-the-box performance of a GM-8. So I went back and looked at my guiding logs. Here's a typical sample:
This is a new GM-8, I've only used it about 6 outings now. I did do PEC training on the mount the first night, but I don't know how good the training really is, but PEC was enabled. The mount had about 18 lbs of gear on it and 11 lb counterweight. Guided with a modified 50mm finder and DSI pro via PHD.
The "noise" in the raw data is pretty high and was about +/- 4", the average guiding performance is as shown at a bit over +/- 1 ". Not great, but I'd say not bad for a new mount with no tweaking.
Just provided as a sample, I'm sure every GM-8 will be a little different.
al
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al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for posting the chart! Awesome!
Thanks,
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
|
Tapio
super member
Reged: 09/24/06
Posts: 157
Loc: Tampere, Finland
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Patrick,
I do imaging with SXV-H9C or Atik 314L+ - both with 6.45uM pixel size.
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Tapio
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7807
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
|
|
Thanks Tapio.
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
|
jeffweiss9
member
Reged: 11/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
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Thanks for all the great suggestions in this thread. I am really grateful. What a great group here. It is very encouraging to know so many fellow back-afflicted (and just weight-adverse) folks have developed ways to do good AP with a lighter mount. I've got 13 or 14 really helpful, and probably affordable, ideas in a list to pursue further before moving on a new setup (once I'm good enough to get out there to use whatever I end up doing). That's likely to involve at least one OAG (I've purchased the Orion but the TS Optics sure looks good) and 1 or both of my refractors and, almost certainly, the GM-8.
I'll throw out one additional lighter-mount idea that I picked up reading a different thread here: using one of the self-guiding SBIG cameras (ST-2000 for example) along with their AO-8 adaptive optics unit should enable by tilting the optics 10 times per second guiding out even the larger and sharper PEC curves. However, the cost for the camera part of that solution, on top of that of the mount itself, is probably beyond my price range but it seems an particularly attractive one to think about.
-Jeff
--------------------
LX90GPS 8"
SVR90
AT66ED
DSI Pro II (2)
AIP4WIN, PS CS2
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