DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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I've seen all of these mounts, but have never owned one, nor have I met anyone who has owned more than one of the three I listed. I've read the specs, but that doesn't really answer the real question I'm getting at.
The question is - What is the quality difference in a CGE compared to a CGEM or Atlas mount? In other words, the CGE is twice the price, but is the quality difference significant enough to warrant $3000 vs $1400-$1500?
My original upgrade plans involve moving up from the CG5/LXD75 I had, and in to something like a CGEM or Atlas. But I may be able to extend the mount budget up to around the $3K mark. That being said, I'm considering new options that weren't available to me before. CGE seemed like an obvious contender in that price range.
Thoughts anyone?
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
The question is - What is the quality difference in a CGE compared to a CGEM or Atlas mount? In other words, the CGE is twice the price, but is the quality difference significant enough to warrant $3000 vs $1400-$1500?
The quality difference is substantial, but so are the capacity and weight. If you need the larger capacity and don't mind the extra weight, the quality is just a bonus. If you don't need the extra capacity or do mind the weight, the quality difference may not be worth the price difference to you.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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I currently own a CGE, and prior to that, I owned an EQ6 (Go-to Atlas).
Now the EQ6 was a very early version, and I wrote a review critical of the software, but that was 3 years ago, and I am sure that the EQ6 software has improved.
Like John, I would say that the Celetron is better quality, though that difference is not great.
I did like the packaging of the Atlas.
The real question though, as John C also says, is that the carry capacity of the CGE puts it in a seperate class.
The Atlas was originally positioned as a competitor to the CGE, but in my opinion, it is not. And if you use it for any larger scopes, you will have to replace the saddle, which is one of the issues that keep it out of the CGE/G11/LXD750 class.
I consider there to be about 5 classes of mounts.
Small mounts like the CG4/CG3/Vixen Polaris
Next, mounts like the LXD75/CG5/Vixen SP/GP
Next, medium mounts like the GM8/Atlas/Atlux
Heavy duty mounts like the CGE/G11/LXD750
And finally, observatory class mounts like like the Titan or AP mounts. These are mounts that can carry a serious payload for advanced imaging.
So, it is hard to compare the Atlas to the CGE because in my own opinion, they are different class mounts.
But in both comparisoins (quality and payload), I give the nod to the CGE.
And the obvious question: Is the CGE worth that much more than the Atlas? Yes, if you need a heavy duty mount, it is. If you don't, then it isn't.
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
I consider there to be about 5 classes of mounts.
Small mounts like the CG4/CG3/Vixen Polaris
Next, mounts like the LXD75/CG5/Vixen SP/GP
Next, medium mounts like the GM8/Atlas/Atlux
Heavy duty mounts like the CGE/G11/LXD750
I'm pretty much in agreement, though I wouldn't consider the GM-8 to be in the same capacity class as the Atlas.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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Yes, it was a hard call. I think it is closer to the Atlas than it is to the GP though. While the tripod is not as heavy, the head is SOOOOOO much lighter that the tripod doesn't have the added strain of carrying 40 lbs of Atlas mount head. So that converts to extra payload.
I ran a C9.25 on a GM8 and it handled it beautifully.
And you can also easily fit the standard G11 saddle, which makes it like the Atlas too, in that it can handle the mounting of larger scopes.
I agree though.. It doesn't fit neatly into the class, but I think a 30 lb load is not a problem for it. Keeping the head itself so light and the saddle so close to the RA axis makes this little mount much stiffer than the CG5/LXD/Vixen mounts where the saddle top is 5 inches or so from the RA shaft. It allows the scope to be mounted closer to the RA shaft, and consequentl, the counterweights can ride higher on the shaft, reducing the polar moment of the mount. So, if you can use somewhat lighgter counterweigts lower on the shaft, or you can use heavier weights higher on the shaft, but using the lighgter weights further down once again helps boost payload.
So, for these reasons, I put it into the next class up. Just a judgement call though, for sure.
I adored my GM8. In many ways, I prefer a GM8 with DSCs to modern Go-To mounts, and if you made me choose between it and an Atlas for a C9 or similar scope, I would go with the GM8 I think. I have a CG5 GT and I don't think it would do as well as the GM8 did with the C9. Even with my TV101, it doesn't seem as solid as the GM8 did with a Genesis.
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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lambermo
member
Reged: 07/16/07
Posts: 58
Loc: .nl
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Quote:
... I wouldn't consider the GM-8 to be in the same capacity class as the Atlas.
The GM-8 has a payload capacity of 13 kg, the Atlas has 20 kg. See my list . Corrections and additions are welcome btw 
-- Hans
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JCAZ
super member
Reged: 08/11/09
Posts: 100
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So you can use DSC without a GOTO system on the GM8? I own a GM8 and am curious how you hook it up.
Thanks,
john
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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I appreciate the input guys.
Weight won't be a major factor for me. I'll probably continue to use modest aperature OTAs for a while. Ultimately I may swing for an RC8 or similar, but probably won't go much larger than that until I move and can consider a more permanent setup(observatory).
I'm just at the point where I'm done tinkering with the entry level mounts and want something with less attitude. Unfortunately I am still stuck setting up and tearing down each session. I don't mind dealing with the weight of the mount since it only has to travel a few feet out a patio door. The quality/accuracy is important though. I know none of these are Tak or AP mounts, but I can't see spending the cash on one of those yet until I have a more permanent home for it.
I didn't even think about the G11. I suppose it's in this price range. I'm really familiar with Celestron products and their interfaces etc, but I know zero about the Losmandy products. Any thoughts between the G11 and a CGE?
Also, since weight isn't a massive factor and going back to my original thoughts - Would the CGE even be worth the extra money given my particular circumstances or should I just save the money, go with an Atlas or CGEM for now and worry about a more serious mount later on?
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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Chris Erickson
member
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 47
Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
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I have a G-11 and it is a massive, rigid mount with beautiful finish.
It isn't very portable.
Losmandy really needs to re-engineer their design for adjusting worm gear backlash.
Losmandy really needs to get rid of the horrible little Oldham motor shaft couplings they are using too.
Having said all of that, overall I am very satisfied with my G-11.
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"My Advice is always free and worth every penny!"
-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
Waikoloa Village, HI 96738
N19°57' W155°47'
Meade 16" LX200 SCT
www.data-plumber.com
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Bill Cowles
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 1045
Loc: Utah
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If weight is not a problem I would consider the Atlas or the new CGEM. I recently upgraded my Atlas with the dual ADM saddle. It is now easier to mount, with much larger lockdown knobs and much increased surface area to work with.
Since it is a dual saddle I can upgrade to a Losmandy style dovetail If I need too. However, my Vixen dovetail is fine for now. I did replace the stock dovetail with a thicker Scope Stuff dovetail.
Bill
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Lunt LS60TS50DS/B1200/FT (on order)
TV Gensis/Solarmax 60 filter
PST DS/Herschel Wedge/C4-R
C6-R /Atlas Goto/Moonlite CF2
12" LightBridge/Round Table
MCHP/8" Orion OTA/Ultima 2000
10" Discovery /Celestron SE-4
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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Yes, you can, however it won't be cheap.
Losmandy sells an encoder kit, but it retails for a whopping $425. This is WITHOUT the computer. The fancy gear covers machined from Delrin cost a whopping $85. Not essential, but I personally HATE exposed gears and was aggrevated that Losmandy did not include these in the encoder kit.
Throw in the Sky Commander or similar, and you are pushing another $300 or so (though I had a Sky Commander and LOVED it).
Or for the staggering sum of $1595, you can do a Gemini conversion, but when you look at it, that is maybe more cost effective than doing DSCs with a premium computer like the Argo Navis (buy the time you add up all the parts).
JMI used to sell universal encoder kits, but even on a budget, I think doing DSCs will still run $400 or $500.
So, you can do it, but it ain't cheap.
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7811
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
See my list . Corrections and additions are welcome btw
Since you mention it...(sorry...a little off topic).
Here is the Periodic Error for my CG5-GT ...much better than the +/- 40 arc-seconds shown in your chart. This is my second CG5 and I believe the first one was just as good based on the unguided imaging I did with it...although I didn't measure it.
Patrick
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10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Josh:
Somewhere in the back of your mind you know how big a scope you are hoping to end up with. The EQ6-Pro was an excellent mount for my WO 132FLT. I knew when I sold the OTA I would need a bigger mount and had the CGE the same day I got my 6" f/12.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
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"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
Edited by Steve Fisher (10/18/09 07:49 PM)
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Now the CGE. It handles a C-8, a 6" f/12 and yes temporarily a 8" f/12.
If you are comfortable with Celestron software that would sway me. The CGE is Excellent and well worth the extra money. I purchased mine used and it has done great! Just my opinion.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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Your photographs highlight the weakness in all of these mounts.
I noticed that you use a pier for your refractors. When I got my EQ6, it was being pushed as a "Heavy Duty" mount. When I had to extend the legs to mount my Meade 152ED, I decided that the mount was heavier duty than the tripod! This was the MAIN issue with the Atlas. It could not handle a 6" refractor.
This I think is why so many people go to the Mini Pier. It allows you to keep the tripod legs short to make the mount stiffer.
The CGE is better, and I can mount my 6" on it just by raising the legs.
But that isn't as good as the LXD 750. This mount was designed to handle the Meade 178ED, and it shows. It is the most stable mount I have ever owned by far.
I would buy another LXD 750 and replace the CGE with it if you could still get parts, but I worry that if the handset goes, I am sunk. Will have to buy a used mount just for parts.
If you want to mount a big refractor though, the Meade LXD 750 is the way to go. I shortened the spread on mine and now I don't even have to raise the legs for my 6" refractor. With the legs extended, I could mount up to 8" with no problem.
Regards.
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
Edited by Eddgie (10/19/09 12:26 PM)
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Ed:
You are correct on a lot of facts. I have considered the 750 as my OTA's have lengthened. It is an awesome and proven mount. I have had the same concerns about availability of parts and service. My thinking is that now you own the mount it is worth owning another for parts if needed. I'm always on the lookout for CGE parts.
The one thing that the pier extensions offer that hasn't been mentioned is that they allow safer slews occasionally. I have nearly knocked off finders and my short focal length Pentax eyepieces on occasion as the appendage swung near the pier. I have used the 6" without the extension and it was constantly swinging past three tripod legs. Always gives me a start.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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WOW! That is one lengthy OTA you have on that CGE, Steve. Your CGE has no problems slewing something with that much mass that far out from the center of the mount? That is impressive indeed.
I sold all of my large aperature Newts, so the biggest thing I would throw on there is a 4.5" reflector or a 4" Mak at the moment. I'm considering an RC8 for longer fl imaging, but nothing too elaborate. I prefer the more compact OTAs for the time being due to storage constraints.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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Good point about the Mini Pier. It does indeed perform that very important service.
The spreader mod to the LXD 750 almost totally eliminated that as an issue with my setup (another reason I am happy I did the mod), but my scope is only a 6" f/8. I doubt that a 6" f/9 would clear.
For refractor usege, they should have tripods where the angle of the leg spread could be reduced. If the legs are raised up higher, they start to get in the way, and if you could reduce the spread when you lowered the legs, it would aid in the clearance issue. I mean do you NEED the giant footprint of most tripods when the legs are fully extended? Most likely, the answer is no.
Of course the spreader design of the Atlas and CGE doen't permit easy modification. Would be interesting is someone considered this in their design thouhg. The original spread on the LXD 750 was bizarrly large.. Looked like the Lunar Lander module. 
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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waassaabee
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/26/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Central California Coast
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Crimony sake Steve, how in the name of rubber cement do you mount that scope? Do you have to call in a crane?
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Gary
34N 120W
-My kingdom for blue squares!-
WO Megrez 90FD/TV 0.8x FR/FF
AT8RC
mini Borg 50/Q-Guide/PHD
CGEM
Canon 350D Hap Griffin Baader mod - o.o
My Friend Flickr
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lambermo
member
Reged: 07/16/07
Posts: 58
Loc: .nl
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Added to the list, thanks !
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
Crimony sake Steve, how in the name of rubber cement do you mount that scope? Do you have to call in a crane?
Gary:
Check out the current thread in the refractor section called "Big refractors at seasons last star party".
You can see some innovation for mounting large OTA's and me attempting to ruin my back for life. Some changes have been made to the rings on the 8" and it is now very easy to put on top of the mount.
The CGE is good for a portable "light" star party mount. I'm working on larger for home use.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
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"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Quote:
The CGE is good for a portable "light" star party mount. I'm working on larger for home use.
Steve, "Light" ... no comment.
You're starting to sound like Kenny Richmond who thinks his 20" RCX is a nice portable scope for star parties.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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Bill Cowles
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 1045
Loc: Utah
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No crane, just Steve "Atlas" Fisher. 
Bill
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Lunt LS60TS50DS/B1200/FT (on order)
TV Gensis/Solarmax 60 filter
PST DS/Herschel Wedge/C4-R
C6-R /Atlas Goto/Moonlite CF2
12" LightBridge/Round Table
MCHP/8" Orion OTA/Ultima 2000
10" Discovery /Celestron SE-4
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Bill Cowles
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 1045
Loc: Utah
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Since this picture was taken, Steve's rings have been modified and now he can place the scope in the rings, while standing on the ground. 
Bill
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Lunt LS60TS50DS/B1200/FT (on order)
TV Gensis/Solarmax 60 filter
PST DS/Herschel Wedge/C4-R
C6-R /Atlas Goto/Moonlite CF2
12" LightBridge/Round Table
MCHP/8" Orion OTA/Ultima 2000
10" Discovery /Celestron SE-4
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Do not be mislead. I can put the 6" in the cradle flat footed but not the 8". That will still take a step up the ladder.
Returning to the OP's question. My attitude is to always buy the most I can comfortably afford. If you can stretch the budget to include a CGE over an Atlas/CGEM price I would do it.
I made a great deal on my used CGE. They run between $1,800.00 and $2,200.00 on the used market. While that reduces the over all cost it then becomes twice what you can pick up a used Atlas for. That hurts but still I would pay the additional cost.
Some of that is based on the fact that I don't plan on downsizing soon.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Well after skimping on mounts for the last few years, and now taking my AP a bit more seriously, I need a more serious mount. CG5s and LXD75s were great to learn on, but have serious personality quirks which were cute to deal with at first, but annoying after a short time. Sounds like a CGE is a strong contender on the list at this point. A CGE would be comfortable in the budget, a CGE Pro would probably be pushing it (wife would hunt me down I think).
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
Well after skimping on mounts for the last few years, and now taking my AP a bit more seriously, I need a more serious mount. CG5s and LXD75s were great to learn on, but have serious personality quirks which were cute to deal with at first, but annoying after a short time. Sounds like a CGE is a strong contender on the list at this point. A CGE would be comfortable in the budget, a CGE Pro would probably be pushing it (wife would hunt me down I think).
Maybe we could share the CGE Pro...... 
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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waassaabee
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/26/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Central California Coast
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WOW... and an 8".... My wife thinks I'm crazy...
--------------------
Gary
34N 120W
-My kingdom for blue squares!-
WO Megrez 90FD/TV 0.8x FR/FF
AT8RC
mini Borg 50/Q-Guide/PHD
CGEM
Canon 350D Hap Griffin Baader mod - o.o
My Friend Flickr
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
WOW... and an 8".... My wife thinks I'm crazy...
My wife thinks I through buying telescopes.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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If I were in your shoes Josh, I'd stretch to get the highest quality mount I could afford, AND be willing to go remote with (like to star parties and whatnot). Two reasons:
1) You'll have great gear now and if you build an observatory in the future, this mount may serve as the permanent mount for a while (or long term), and/or be your "portable" rig.
2) With those great New Mexico skies, you'll get a lot of use from your gear (whether you build on Obsv or not), so dollars spent on quality equipment is totally worth it.
If you can deal with these mounts as a portable (and staying sorta close to your stated budget), I'd be thinking CGE, G-11, or EM200.
I own a CGE and GM-8, and right now I'm a bit biased toward Losmandy, so I'd look really hard at the G-11. I think it can be groomed to be a bit smoother than the CGE and I bet it would travel better.
Just my opinions,
al
EDIT: My wife saw this post and kindly asked me to amend my first sentence. Edited version should read: .... The highest quality mount available within the CFO's (read: wife's) stated limits...
Edited by AlanT (10/20/09 01:47 AM)
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Al,
That's my exact limitation right there - what the CFO determines is the limit before I risk my own life and limb. This is yet to be hard set, but a CGE price range is probably doable, anything further is likely going to require selling something like one of my arcades to further offset the expense LOL(Side hobby - I design and build arcades). I'm actually exploring this right now as I have a finished arcade I need to push out of the house, and after seeing reviews and specs on the CGE Pro with claims of PE of less than 4 arcseconds with training, it might be worth going the extra mile to get a top notch mount like that.
I'm just picturing how hilarious it would look for me to stand up a CGE Pro and mount an AT66ED on top.
--------------------
-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Quote:
I'm just picturing how hilarious it would look for me to stand up a CGE Pro and mount an AT66ED on top.
I wanna see that picture Josh. You'd barely notice there was a scope there.
Your original question was about the quantifiable/justifiable difference between the CGEM and CGE class of mounts. IMHO is there quite a bit of difference in build quality, but not a huge difference in actual guided performance (although it may take a bit more tweaking to get there with the less expensive mounts).
My post was intended to bring up other issues to think about other than just raw mount performance and cost. Basically issues centered around how/where you'll use the mount and future plans.
To illustrate, here's what happened in my case: I had a CG-5 and you know how that is... I wanted something that needed less TLC. So after some study, bought a CGE and tuned it up to my liking (that took some invasive surgery by the way). I put the CGE on a permanent pier, but thought I could take it off as needed to go to remote sites. I soon found that I really didn't like doing that since it spoiled my permanent alignment each time, and the CGE is a pretty large/heavy beast to haul about. So, I found myself taking my CG-5 when I went remote. Heck, that's pretty dumb..... Travel to better skies, and end up taking my lower grade mount. As a result I ended up buying a third mount based on different criteria.... basically the best I could afford that I'd be comfortable with as a sorta grab-n-go setup. Now I'm finding that my CGE isn't getting much use because I'm going to remote sites much more often now (at least when there isn't too much snow in the mountains).
I'm not unhappy with where I ended up, but I think I hadn't thought through these issues thoroughly before buying the CGE. If I lived in a great dark sky area like NM, I'd probably be bugged now and looking to sell the CGE in favor of an even better mount for a permanent installation.
I'm sure you've already been frazzling your brain for months thinking through all this stuff, but still thought I'd surface these issues.
al
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al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Al,
You're spot on. There are definitely several things to consider here. One of which is that this purchase will have to last me a while as we are going to be working on possibly a new home next year some time. Of course this means there won't be any AP funding after this particular round of procurement. I've sold off most of my non-essential gear and existing mounts with the exception of my little Nexstar 4SE which I like to use as a grab-and-go visual scope. This is going to help me offset expense somewhat. The more and more I dwell on this, the more I'm considering aiming for a higher end mount for a longer term investment. Ultimately when I move I do want to set up a more permanent home for the mount (dome + pier). I don't really travel to remote sites very often simply because I live under pretty dark skies already and when we move we will likely locate into a similar area but with a little bit of land behind it this time. Having a heavy mount wouldn't trouble me much since I generally tend to only travel with my gear a couple times a year at most. A CGEM or Atlas would be a huge step up from my CG5/LXD75 but I'm questioning that line of thinking now. Seems each time I look to upgrade, I lose quite a bit in selling off used gear, and just end up repeating this process every several months. I'm tired of taking this approach. Even if I went all out on a mount and stuck with my modest OTAs I suspect I will be far more satisfied compared to going halfway on the mount progression and halfway on the OTA progression. As it stands today, the OTAs aren't causing me barriers, it's the mounts.
This is definitely a good discussion and everyone has me rethinking my approach again. I'm going to be chewing on this subject for a few more months anyway. I have no intention of rushing the decision this time. Plus I'll have a much better view of what will be financially feasible by January. This gives me plenty of time to work on supplementing the funding. I do want to think through these things now, however, so that I will be a bit more firm on my ultimate choice when the time comes.
http://www.celestron.com/c3/product.php?CatID=16&ProdID=549 Watching some of the spec vids about the CGE Pro, the precision involved, and the spring loaded gears to eliminate backlash, I have to say my eyes are tempted. Hmm... decisions decisions.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Ah Ha!! I see you are as completely befuddled and confused as your supposed to be making this kind of decision. 
Good luck with whichever path you choose... lessee... Tak, or CGE Pro, or MI, or AP.... uhmmmm.....
al
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al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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It's like putting a candy bowl in front of a kid and telling them to pick only one piece of candy out... So many flavors!
I'll have to dig this topic up again a bit closer to decision time.
Thanks everyone.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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I currently own both an Atlas EQ-G and a CGE.
The CGE is higher quality. It is also MUCH heavier. In comparison, the Atlas is rather "flimsy," though neither are bad mounts.
I use the CGE for my TEC 140 and the Atlas for my smaller 3", 4" and 5" refractors. The Atlas is too vibration prone with the 140. The CGE, on the other hand, is solid as iron with the 140.
The CGE is also not 2x the price of an Atlas. OPT has CGEs on sale for $2680. The Atlas is $1500. That makes the CGE just about $1100 more than the Atlas. 2x the mount for less than 2x the price is a good deal IF (a) you need the extra capacity and (b) don't mind working harder during set-up and take-down.
Celestron's Nexstar firmware is also better than Synta's Synscan firmware. More and better features and fewer "glitches".
Regards,
Jim
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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Craig
Vendor (Stark Labs)
Reged: 09/16/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Irvine, CA
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A huge issue for me for imaging is the ability or lack thereof to go past the meridian. The CGEM will go a lot further past. Being able to go past by an hour or more on both sides is a big win for me in my polluted skies as I'm typically imaging "up".
FWIW a Celestron rep told me that with tuning the accuracy on the CGEM can be just as good.
Craig
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Stark Labs Astrophotography software
Borg 101 ED f/4, C8, and too many cameras to mention
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
FWIW a Celestron rep told me that with tuning the accuracy on the CGEM can be just as good.
Craig
I suspect it might take a lot of tuning to overcome the inherent precision advantages of the CGE (worm wheels nearly twice the diameter, worm wheels and worms by Berg USA, higher encoder resolution - about .1 arcsecond, etc.).
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Craig,
That is also a good point. I have FOV limitations to the East, so I tend to image closer to zenith on certain targets as well. As I understood it the CGE and CGE Pro can image nearly 2 hours past without having to flip. Someone may need to check me on this. I didn't check that detail on the CGEM. I'm guessing it's able to do the same?
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Quote:
Quote:
FWIW a Celestron rep told me that with tuning the accuracy on the CGEM can be just as good.
Craig
I suspect it might take a lot of tuning to overcome the inherent precision advantages of the CGE (worm wheels nearly twice the diameter, worm wheels and worms by Berg USA, higher encoder resolution - about .1 arcsecond, etc.).
By tuning, I would hope this isn't implying cracking it open and tweaking/modifying like I've had to do with both the LXD75 and CG5 (i.e. hypertune kits, belt kits, etc). This is definitely what I'm trying to avoid. I'm looking more for precision and lack of quirks. CGE sounds like a better choice in that respect, though I wonder how well a CGEM performs for imaging as I haven't seen many people posting with results on that particular matter. I can't imagine it's anywhere near as twitchy as a CG5.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
As I understood it the CGE and CGE Pro can image nearly 2 hours past without having to flip.
Both have safety stops to prevent going that far. The CGE Pro looks as though the stop is a little farther along than that of the CGE, though. The CGEM has no stops - it'll run until something expensive crashes into something else. I don't consider that a good thing (I wish my NJP had this safety feature), but some folks do.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Josh, the CGE does not go nearly as far past the meridian... only a few degrees before it stops. There's no danger of crashing because of the limit switches, but you need to flip to keep going past the meridian.
The CGE Pro will do 20 deg past according to the literature, and I suspect the CGEM will also go well beyond. However, not the CGE.
al
--------------------
al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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Chris Rowland
sage
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 270
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The AS-GT has software stops and I expect the CGEM has as well. It's easy to check, just use the HC to slew towards the hard stop and see what happens. The software stop position can be adjusted - somewhere in the HC.
When I started imaging with my AS-GT it was quite normal to find half the images trailed because the scope had reached the meridian and stopped.
Chris
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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That's interesting because my CG-5 never stopped. I crashed it once myself when starting out. It was not pretty. Fortunately I didn't permanently damage anything. I did have the current firmware loaded.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
That's interesting because my CG-5 never stopped.
The CG5-GT mounts I've owned didn't have that feature. Of course some firmware revs may include it and I just haven't seen one so equipped. The only German EQ mounts I've owned that I know to have such a feature are the LXD650/750 series. My issue with those is that they aren't failsafe - if the reason for the motion past meridian is some error or glitch, the software won't realize that it's being crossed. The limit switches of the CGE/CGE Pro can't be fooled.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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The CFO has tentatively blessed the procurement of a heavy duty mount in February provided a few criteria are met, and assuming the tax man doesn't hose us. So... let's move away from Atlas/CGEM talk, and on to something heavier for sure. CGE sounds like the bottom of the next bracket of mounts price-wise, so let's start the list there LOL.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Once I get mine I would strongly reccommend an Astrophysics 900QMD. I hope to find one for less than the CGE Pro. They come up every now and then.
I won't be requiring the GOTO so the QMD will work very well for me.
I went to RTMC this year specifically to see the CGE Pro and honestly I was a little underwhelmed. I'm reading every post I can find here and elsewhere on the Pro but information is still coming in slowly.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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So to summarize the capabilities to track past the meridian ...
The HC firmware for the ASGT, CGEM, CGE, and CGEPro is the same so the function "RA Limits" provides the ability from the HC to set a limit as to how far the mount will move the scope in RA. The CGE and CGEPro both have physical switches that supersede the s/w based limits.
The CGE will track just past the meridian, the CGEPro much farther past the meridian but both will stop before the rubber stops are contacted. If the s/w based RA limits are set too far both the CGEM and CG-5 will happily keep going until they go crunch.
So more money also gets you an additional safety feature.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Mark,
I completely forgot about the slew limit settings in the HC. You're absolutely right.
--------------------
-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Mark,
I completely forgot about the slew limit settings in the HC. You're absolutely right.
Are you sure that those affect tracking? Usually they are merely slew limits and provide no protection when tracking. The LXD650/750 are among the very few exceptions to this.
--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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I guess that is the magic question. Unfortunately my CG5 is long gone, I have no way to check it myself. I never set my slew limits, I just always made sure an object was in a reasonable location before slewing to it.
I do still have one of the Celestron manuals in front of me, I'll thumb through it real fast and see if it provides any reference.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Ok the manual provides no insight. It simply states that the settings prevent the scopes from slewing below the horizon and limits the overall altitude it will slew to before presenting a warning on the HC. I'm guessing that it would track right through the limit if you slewed to something below the set angle and let it ride out. Anyone care to test?
--------------------
-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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Chris Rowland
sage
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 270
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I know my AS-GT used to stop before the hard stops, both for tracking and if you tried to use the HC, but I haven't tried it for a while.
I'll look at it this evening and it it doesn't stop will be emailing the developer.
Chris
Edited by Chris Rowland (10/22/09 06:20 AM)
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Dixie
member
Reged: 03/30/06
Posts: 64
Loc: UK Latitude 53.3 north
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I saw a CGE Pro in the flesh at our local Star Camp last weekend. It didn't strike me as having a whole lot more mass than the CGE, which I own. Certainly the tripod seemed a tad lighter if anything. Must confess, being an early buyer of the CGE (2003), I would be inclined to wait until Celestron sort out any bugs before buying the Pro. My CGE was all over the place for the first couple of years, re mad slews, wayward GOTO. Firmware updates and repairs eventually sorted out the problems, but I learnt my lesson. It's also worth noting that the CGE Pro sells at £6599 sterling (approx $10,800) here in the UK. About the same as a Losmandy Titan.
Richard
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Ouch. They are $5,000 here.
I'm intrigued by the enhancements they advertise that supposedly reduce backlash and PE significantly. PE of 9 arcsec out of the box with the ability to reduce it down to 4 arcsec or less by training the drives. But like any other new release, I don't ever buy the first rendition. This purchase wouldn't be until Feb/March timeframe at earliest, so hopefully there will be some good feedback from users before it's time for me to make any decisions. Who knows, maybe a good deal will come up on a used Tak or AP mount in that timeframe.
--------------------
-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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Chris Rowland
sage
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 270
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Quote:
I know my AS-GT used to stop before the hard stops, both for tracking and if you tried to use the HC, but I haven't tried it for a while.
I'll look at it this evening and it it doesn't stop will be emailing the developer.
No need :-) it stops...
I did a quick align, followed by a slew to Jupiter. It's just East of the meridian.
Then I used the HC buttons to move to the West and - just past the meridian, before it reached any hard stops, it stopped. It didn't do the usual slow down, it stopped dead at an azimuth reading of 186 degrees.
Backing off and leaving it tracking had the same effect, when the azimuth reached 186 degrees tracking stopped.
I'm using the latest HC and MC software, in fact slightly better than latest, but it's always been like this for me.
I can't account for other's experience being different, maybe early versions don't have the software limits or maybe we are thinking of different things.
Chris.
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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From the CGEM manual (reflects firmware level gem4.15) "RA Limits - Sets the limits that the telescope can slew or track in Right Ascension( R.A.) before stopping."
There is currently no such thing as a function called "Slew limits" (I also thought that there was).
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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Coming in late to the discussion. R.A. Limits option does indeed stop the mount before crash if you have it set properly. The other option is "Filter Limits" which just refuses to display targets that are beyond your set bounds. It will gladly track right thru the filtered sky though.
Back on topic - Does anyone have a total weight for the CGE?
I found:
CGEM - 75lbs - max payload 40lb
CGE - ? lbs - max payload 65lb
CGE Pro - 154 lbs - max payload 90lb
Is the CGE as heavy as the CGE Pro? For me 154lbs is not portable. My payload is currently only 25lbs, so I don't need the weight increase. But the added precision sure would be nice.
--------------------
-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
Coming in late to the discussion. R.A. Limits option does indeed stop the mount before crash if you have it set properly. The other option is "Filter Limits" which just refuses to display targets that are beyond your set bounds. It will gladly track right thru the filtered sky though.
Back on topic - Does anyone have a total weight for the CGE?
I found:
CGEM - 75lbs - max payload 40lb
CGE - ? lbs - max payload 65lb
CGE Pro - 154 lbs - max payload 90lb
Is the CGE as heavy as the CGE Pro? For me 154lbs is not portable. My payload is currently only 25lbs, so I don't need the weight increase. But the added precision sure would be nice.
My manual shows "tripod and electronics pier" = 41.5 lbs.
EQ mount weight= 42 lbs.
Counterweight bar - 5 lbs.
Counterweights either 1 @11 lbs, 1@ 25 lbs or 2@ 25 lbs.
--------------------
Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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oh cool so it fits nicely between. Shame they won't be making any more CGE's. Perhaps there is a replacement on the Horizon.
I added up 99-114lbs (I'd never need 2@25lb counterweights). That's alot easier than 154lbs.
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-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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Tech Hiker
member
Reged: 07/29/09
Posts: 18
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Quote:
Shame they won't be making any more CGE's.
Seriously? They aren't making any more CGEs?
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Tom
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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Apparently Celestron stopped production in Jan 09. It was replaced by the CGE-Pro, which is actually a heavier class mount. I'm hoping we see a CGEM-Pro or something to replace the CGE - although I'll probably have to pull the trigger on something well before that happens.
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-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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I think we have been down this road elsewhere. Last I heard from the Celestron reps at RTMC in May was the CGE "classic" will probably continue.
Now going back to the OP's latest request if the CGE is the low end of the current possibilities that leaves a huge gap to the next mount, doesn't it.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Quote:
Back on topic - Does anyone have a total weight for the CGE?
I found:
CGEM - 75lbs - max payload 40lb
CGE - ? lbs - max payload 65lb
CGE Pro - 154 lbs - max payload 90lb
Is the CGE as heavy as the CGE Pro? For me 154lbs is not portable.
CGE - EQ head - 42lbs, tripod and electronics pier - 41.5lbs, cw bar - 5lbs, cw - 25lbs. So in line with the specs above the CGE would be 113.5lbs.
If you're only carrying 25lbs of equipment and you need portability (breaking it down to transport to and from a dark site) then I'd seriously consider the CGEM. When setup and balanced well and autoguided it should provide sufficient tracking smoothness and accuracy. If your observing/imaging is in your backyard then maybe consider wheels for the heavier CGE (Scopebuggy for example), that will make it much easier on your back.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
If you're only carrying 25lbs of equipment and you need portability (breaking it down to transport to and from a dark site) then I'd seriously consider the CGEM. When setup and balanced well and autoguided it should provide sufficient tracking smoothness and accuracy. If your observing/imaging is in your backyard then maybe consider wheels for the heavier CGE (Scopebuggy for example), that will make it much easier on your back.
I would agree 100% with Mark. With a 25 pound load a CGEM or Atlas is the correct choice. IMHO. If you get up in the 35-40 pound range, I would start to reconsider.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
----------------------
"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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That would leave a big gap if they discontinued the CGE. It seems to be such a popular mount.
--------------------
-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 762
Loc: India
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This is a great OP and thread -- I've read it twice -- speaking as one interested in starting up as a newbie in dslr AP, with a desire for reasonable portability, and a carry weight in the 25-pound range. Just about every question I had in my mind has been discussed, and most of the mounts discussed are those I am considering as well. I have learned a lot here.
It is clear to me that the more robust the mount the better, in the comparisons that have been made here -- and then, as the OP notes, it becomes another story. If I may, and I don't mean to take it back a notch in terms of the greater desire for a more robust mount (which would be mine as well), but I have a question relevant to the last few posts.
Style, software, go-to formats, etc., aside, is there much difference in the performance of the CGEM and Atlas in terms of output for AP (e.g., based on things like the size of the gears)? I guess what I'm asking, is which would lend itself toward better photos, or are they about the same, say, for the 25-pound carry? Looks like an either/or answer at the moment.
Thanks,
Dale
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AT 72
TMB 92
Orion 120ST
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3580
Loc: New Mexico
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Dale, that is a great question as well.
I've seen both CGEM and Atlas mounts in person, and I have heard feedback from people who own one or the other. But I have not heard a detailed comparison from someone who has experience on both mounts.
I've noticed there are a lot of people who modify their Atlas mounts with new bearings, and other internal parts, Hypertune them, etc. So I'm wondering if the tracking accuracy is really that poor even with the PEC that it's requiring people to modify.
For me personally, I really liked the All-star alignment protocol when I upgraded the firmware in my CG5, it simplified "quick" alignment big time and the CGEM has it by default. I don't think the Atlas has anything like it, and I'm unsure just how accurate the polar finder scope is on the Atlas. Either way drift alignment is the way to go, but for those short sessions with no time for an in-depth drift alignment job, it would be nice to measure and test which one has the better solution.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 762
Loc: India
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Thanks Josh -- that's helpful perspective -- and I appreciate the feedback, especially since I jumped in late to your discussion. The CGEM seems like it might be the overall better deal between the two of them, and the firmware sounds good from what you indicate. Modification considerations for the Atlas could be easily sway a decision, as well.
Thanks again,
Dale
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AT 72
TMB 92
Orion 120ST
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LarsZ
super member
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 115
Loc: Sweden
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I haven't used the CGEM so I can't comment on that one.
My Atlas has a PE of +- 18, but it is rather smooth, so with an autoguider I have gotten very good results with 13 kg on it and 2350 mm focal length.
There is a program developed by Matthias Garzarolli that can be used with the Atlas and is somewhat similar to the Celestron All Star Polar Align, but with a limited number of stars to choose between. I have used it once for polar aligning but haven't checked the accuracy with drift aligning afterwards.
However I have read a couple of very positive reviews here in Sweden from other users of the program. If you want you can check it out. If I remember correctly it has a 30 day free trial period.
http://www.alignmaster.de/
/Lars
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Rebel XSi, IDAS LPS, CGE 9.25, Orion SSAG, Starblast 4.5
Edited by LarsZ (10/26/09 03:49 PM)
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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 762
Loc: India
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Thanks for the useful feedback on your Atlas, Lars. That looks like a useful program for calibrating polar alignment.
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AT 72
TMB 92
Orion 120ST
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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I suspect that the problem is that the "Made in USA" CGE costs quite a lot to make, resulting in thin margins compared to the CGEM and CGEPro.
If you buy a discounted CGE today from OPT for $2680, you get a full 2-year Celestron warranty. This leads me to believe that there should be spares around for quite awhile.
I "bit" at the discounted price, and have thus far really enjoyed the mount. For visual use only, it's delightfully accurate. With a rough polar alignment, two-star alignment, and 3 calibration stars, the mount puts objects near the center of a 1/2 degree field. I love the full-featured Nexstar firmware too. It's much better than the SynScan firmware used on the Atlas.
It is a bit heavy. You really need to buy an appropriate case for the mount head as the cardboard box won't last that long. It's noisier than an Atlas but quieter than a CG5-GT. It lacks analog setting circles and the side-saddle polar scope is (a) optional and (b) no longer available. Fortunately you really don't need a polar scope for visual-use polar alignment.
If you have a need for the extra capacity, can deal with the extra weight and bulk, and can swallow the extra cost, I think the CGE is a compelling package despite its discontinuance.
Regards,
Jim
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Danger: Random musing follows ...
I too was very perplexed at the original statements by Celestron and it's dealers about the CGE going away. I really believe that Celestron needs a mount in the class of the CGE at the current price point (sub $3000). I wonder if the reason we haven't heard any definitive statements is due to C looking at moving the manufacturing to China.
You learn a lot about your customers and a product when you tell them that you are discontinuing it and not offering a direct replacement. Perhaps Celestron is monitoring current sales to see if it makes sense to continue with the CGE. I'll bet Scott Losmandy is sure hoping that they don't.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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rmollise
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 4598
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Quote:
Danger: Random musing follows ...
I too was very perplexed at the original statements by Celestron and it's dealers about the CGE going away. I really believe that Celestron needs a mount in the class of the CGE at the current price point (sub $3000). I wonder if the reason we haven't heard any definitive statements is due to C looking at moving the manufacturing to China.
Yep...I'd very much like to see Celestron with a replacement mount between the CGEM and the CGE Pro. No doubt it will be from China, but I hope, if such a thing happens, they will cure the mount's main warts, the cables/connectors.
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Uncle Rod
Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!
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Jeff55
sage
Reged: 04/14/05
Posts: 374
Loc: Boston MA
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I load about 34 pounds of gear on my CGEM and it handles that load without a problem. I'm probably at the outer most limit weight-wise BUT it seems it's within the design capabilities of the mount. I use my mount strictly for visual.
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Jeff Kurtz
CGEM
Celestron C9.25
WO Megrez 90
Denk Binoviewer
Leica 14mm/22mm Eyepieces
Meade 40mm UWA
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Quote:
Danger: Random musing follows ...
I too was very perplexed at the original statements by Celestron and it's dealers about the CGE going away. I really believe that Celestron needs a mount in the class of the CGE at the current price point (sub $3000). I wonder if the reason we haven't heard any definitive statements is due to C looking at moving the manufacturing to China.
Yep...I'd very much like to see Celestron with a replacement mount between the CGEM and the CGE Pro. No doubt it will be from China, but I hope, if such a thing happens, they will cure the mount's main warts, the cables/connectors.
Yes sir! A CGE that comes with proper RA and Dec cables and sockets. Now that would be a dynamite mount. 
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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Mickey
member
Reged: 09/18/09
Posts: 26
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Can someone tell me what's the payload capacity of the CGE?
Not sure how I missed it. Never mind... I found what I needed.
Quote:
Quote:
Back on topic - Does anyone have a total weight for the CGE?
I found:
CGEM - 75lbs - max payload 40lb
CGE - ? lbs - max payload 65lb
CGE Pro - 154 lbs - max payload 90lb
Is the CGE as heavy as the CGE Pro? For me 154lbs is not portable.
CGE - EQ head - 42lbs, tripod and electronics pier - 41.5lbs, cw bar - 5lbs, cw - 25lbs. So in line with the specs above the CGE would be 113.5lbs.
If you're only carrying 25lbs of equipment and you need portability (breaking it down to transport to and from a dark site) then I'd seriously consider the CGEM. When setup and balanced well and autoguided it should provide sufficient tracking smoothness and accuracy. If your observing/imaging is in your backyard then maybe consider wheels for the heavier CGE (Scopebuggy for example), that will make it much easier on your back.
Edited by Mickey (10/30/09 12:01 AM)
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TonyF
member
Reged: 04/24/06
Posts: 18
Loc: .CA
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Steve,
Where did you get your mini-pier extension for the CGE??
TF
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Steve Fisher
"Curmudgeon in Training"
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
Steve,
Where did you get your mini-pier extension for the CGE??
TF
Wish I could tell you that it was readily available but it was made for a friends CGE in Idaho Falls, Idaho. It ended up about 4" taller than he would have liked for his TEC 160. He was going to send it back and have it cut down.
I got to him just in time. I bought his and he bought a new one.
Should be easy for a good machine shop anywhere. If you need more PM me and I'll try to get the name of the company.
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Steve
8" f/12 D&G Achromat Refractor Delivered 08/27/09
6" D&G f/12 Achromat Refractor
66mm f/6.1 William Optics Petzval
6" f/8 Celestron Starhopper
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"Never try to teach a pig to sing, It wastes your time and it annoys the pig". (Robert Heinlein)
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