deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Yeah I know this has probably been beat to death, but I wasn't round for the fray so if you could point to the relevant threads I'd be thankful! And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome.
-drl
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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To sum it up, both have a lot of fans because both are good mounts.
From a usability standpoint, one of the biggest differences is the Tripod. The CGE folds, but the G11 breaks down. While the G11 might be a bit more to move, it is also probably a bit sturdier.
The CGE will not track more than 11 degrees past the meridian (and while people hate this, if you own a C14 like I do, you know that much past this and the C14 can come in contact with the tripod legs).
Other than this, these are both excellent mounts. The pro-s and cons are minor for each.
If you have some exotiric needs, like mounting a lot of equipiment, or if you are imaging, or ifyou have an unusal scope to mount, then one might be better than the other, but for general use, either would be a fine choice.
I own a CGE, but I have owned a Losmandy too (G8). Both companies know how to build a great mount. I love the craftsmanship of the Losmandy though. They make a beautiful mount. The CGE is well made, but it a different way. I like the integrated packaging of the CGE better.
So, like I said, lots of little differentatiors, but both really excellent mounts.
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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I decided on a used G11 mount. Here is why:
I liked the fact that it was made in the USA. I do own many things made in China but I have to admit I always have misgivings. I TRY to avoid Chinese goods if I can, (and not just astronomical equipment). Not trying to start a debate on this topic, just stating my opinion only.
I also love the sturdiness of the G11. It really looks rock solid and well built, (and it is). Even the DEC, RA, and power cables are heavy duty.
My biggest reason for the G11? After reading comments on the customer service from Celestron, I really did not relish the idea of sending back the CGE mount if something goes wrong and then waiting, and waiting, and waiting for things to get resolved... I know that I can order whatever parts I want from Losmandy and replace them myself. If I burn out my motors, I can order new ones etc. I'm aware that I can wait a while for the parts too, but at least I can work on the mount myself and not be forced to send the whole thing back.
Of course the CGE is an awesome mount, and I would not turn it down, but I give the edge to the G11. The Gemini takes some getting used to on the G11, but it's great once you learn it. Ultimately though, it comes down to preference, and how involved you want to get. Some folks like to tinker with things, others do not.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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Dixie
member
Reged: 03/30/06
Posts: 64
Loc: UK Latitude 53.3 north
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I had problems with my 2003 CGE but they eventually got ironed out through repairs and upgraded firmware. The port which accepts the dec encoder cable can still be an issue, occassionally leading to malfunction. The Nexstar system is very nice - I take for granted how easy it is to perform tasks. It'a quite plus.
Rich
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Quote:
I liked the fact that it was made in the USA. I do own many things made in China but I have to admit I always have misgivings. I TRY to avoid Chinese goods if I can, (and not just astronomical equipment). Not trying to start a debate on this topic, just stating my opinion only.
The CGE is also made in the USA.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
I decided on a used G11 mount. Here is why:
I liked the fact that it was made in the USA. I do own many things made in China but I have to admit I always have misgivings. I TRY to avoid Chinese goods if I can
Isn't the Gemini a German system? The website is a .de
Are you sure it's made in the USA? The Ovision worm is also made in Europe if you upgraded.
I think more of the original CGE was made in the USA as a total system. Not sure about the new ones, if Rod's out there he could answer that.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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I know. My fault for not being specific.
I should have made it clear and said that a made in USA mount was something I wanted to have. The Celestron customer service woes I was referring to were some of the CGEM threads I've noticed. At one point I was considering the CGEM, but I decided on spending the extra money for a better mount. That's when I had to decide between the CGE and G11. Comparing the CGE and G11, I opted for the G11 based on my preferences and the potential customer service woes.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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Not sure if Gemini is from Germany or not, but I have considerable more trust in German quality control. So if it is made in Germany, I have no problem. The mount itself though is made in the US no? I also bought my mount used. It still has Celestron on it from back in the day when it was sold with a C11. There has been the upgrade to the servo Gemini since of course.
Edited by HaleBopper (10/29/09 11:37 AM)
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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I had a cg-5 goto a few years back that needed some repairs. Of course, I had to send it to Celestron and I waited about 3-4 months to get it back. I was grateful for the repair under warrenty, but it was my only mount. When it came time to upgrade I opted for the G11. Anybody with screwdrivers and allen wrenches can fix this mount in their homes. All the electronics could blow up and I'd still be able to use this mount while waiting for replacement parts.
Losmandy has a new tripod with folding legs, btw.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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serious_sam
sage
Reged: 10/15/03
Posts: 239
Loc: New York, New York
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Having owned German cars my entire life, I would not put that much trust on German electronics.
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CPC 9.25
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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Why have you owned them all your life if German electronics are "suspect" 
Just joking. I will take the opposite of what you say though. I do have great trust in german electronics. I have never owned a German car, so I'll not say anything about that, but I do work in a chemistry lab with top notch instuments made in Germany. For example, our LC/MS is a fantastic piece of machinery. My trust in German engineering is not misplaced based on my years of experience. At least on scientific equipment.
I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll say nothing more about this.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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"I liked the fact that it was made in the USA...I TRY to avoid Chinese goods if I can, (and not just astronomical equipment)."
The CGE is also "Made in the USA." You excluded a perfectly decent, less expensive mount based on an erroneous belief about its origin.
Here's where I think the G-11 surpasses the CGE:
- Analog setting circles
- More machined (rather than cast) parts
- Easier to self-service (but with its propensity to develop backlash over time, you also will be required to self-service periodically)
- hollow polar axis for easier polar alignment
Here's where the CGE surpasses the G-11
- More intuitive GOTO software
- Bigger, better resourced manufacturer
- Cheaper (by ~$500!)
- Less axial backlash
- Longer warranty (2-years)
I think either works well at this capacity level, and neither come close to more costly mounts from Astro-Physics and Takahashi.
Regards,
Jim
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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[quote
The CGE is also "Made in the USA." You excluded a perfectly decent, less expensive mount based on an erroneous belief about its origin.
Go back and read my response to the first person,(mclewis1) that pointed that out.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
Edited by HaleBopper (10/29/09 01:49 PM)
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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If you read my post it was in reply to the made here chest beating. The point is of the earlier CGE's they were probably more American made "systems" than the G 11 with Gemini, if the location of where parts were made was taken into account. There was no denigration of any equipment if you read the posting. Just wondering why China = bad and Europe = good. Both make good kit if you buy the right items from my perspective. It's a global market with no opt out.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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No chest beating on my part. I'm neither American, German or Chinese. I simply stated my opinion on Chinese goods. I do have nice stuff from China but I do get a bit nervous on their quality sometimes. Perhaps in a few years things will change.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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German software? *shivers* Baaaaaaddddd juju. 
- Jim
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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Point taken that software is not good and neither is the American one.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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I'm getting the impression that the drives on both axes are more refined on the CGE. Yes? Do they have comparable PE?
-drl
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Hard to say. I'm not an imager, but from what I've read the PE on each (G-11 and CGE) varies quite a lot unit to unit, with some of them pretty good out of the box and some of them quite awful.
If anything I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the "average" G-11 has a bit less PE than the "average" CGE. Neither offers Astro-Physics out-of-the-box experience, however.
- Jim
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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chuckscap
sage
Reged: 07/18/09
Posts: 229
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO USA
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German electronics are fine, now British electronics are quite another matter. When I owned British motorcycles and cars (BSA Lightning, Norton Combat Commando, and TR4-A) which I dearly loved, we used to call Lucas Electronics the "Prince of Darkness" ...
Chuck
Edited by chuckscap (10/29/09 04:14 PM)
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hi,
Quote:
Isn't the Gemini a German system? The website is a .de
Are you sure it's made in the USA?
The Losmandy G-11 is made in California, USA.
The Gemini GoTo Software IS outsourced to René Görlich, who is based in Germany.
Quote:
The Ovision worm is also made in Europe if you upgraded.
I think more of the original CGE was made in the USA as a total system. Not sure about the new ones, if Rod's out there he could answer that.
Well.., Orion Telescope's product description mentions "Two made-in-USA DC servo drive motors, with dual encoders accurate to 1.5 arc-minutes"., now., if the whole, complete mount is being made in the US, why make the point of the servos being made in the US?
Further.., Celestron's CGE product page also does similar in stating that: -
"Precision Bronze Worm Gear - 32 pitch, 5.625" pitch diameter, 180 tooth bronze gear manufactured in the U.S.A. by W. M. Berg, Inc. Manufactured to AGMA Quality Class 10 standard, which minimizes total composite error and backlash."
and
"Drive Motors - Made in the U.S.A., Pittman LO-COGT brush-commutated DC motors offer smooth, quiet operation and long life. The motor armatures are skewed to minimize cogging which is required for low speed tracking."
The consumer is therefore left to their own interpretations?
Hope that helps.
Regards,
skybsd
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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That the G 11 mechanicals are made in the USA was never in doubt.
Where the Gemini electronics are made is the question (not the servo's) and not just the software. With the Gemini upgrade retail close to half the cost of the system it is a substantial amount of the whole.
Also the CGE mentioned was the original model not the current one.
Very little is 100% made in any country anymore (there are exceptions). Agree with you Skybsd that individual parts can be made anywhere and the consumer is left guessing.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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GShaffer
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/28/09
Posts: 646
Loc: Augusta GA
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While I considered all the available info regarding my decision on which to go with and the repair issues definately played a part in my decision ie cant get parts no matter how simple but have to send the mount back instead, I went with the G11 primarily for one reason.
With the G11 I have CLUTCHES and can use the mount either as goto or not. CGE is dead in the water if something goes wrong with the electronics since there are no clutches. That in itself was enough reason for me.
--------------------
APM 8" f/9.0 Achro
Meade 6" AR6 f/8.0 Achro
Celestron C11, Intes MK67
Vixen ED102SS, FL102S, ED102S, NA140SS, R200SS, WO Megarez 80 w/TMB Fluorite Optics
SV70ED, AT66ED
LXD75/LX200, Ioptron Mini-tower, SP, GP-DX, CG5 ASGT, LXD650, GM-8, GM-100, G11, Gemini 40
4" portable AP convertable 44" or 70" pier
APM 100mm Binos Millenium Mount, Dobstuff 10" DOB
Augusta GA
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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I dunno. Of the seven German cars I've owned in the last 20 years, electrical and electronics problems have accounted for more than 50% of the issues. Mechanical engineering? Germany yes! Electrical/Electronic? Not my first choice.
Regards,
Jim
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"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Quote:
With the G11 I have CLUTCHES and can use the mount either as goto or not. CGE is dead in the water if something goes wrong with the electronics since there are no clutches. That in itself was enough reason for me.
The CGE has nice robust clutches on both axis so if you want to move the mount without power you are free to do so. 
--------------------
Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
The Gemini GoTo Software IS outsourced to René Görlich, who is based in Germany.
No. There's a difference between outsourcing a proprietary item and simply buying a commodity product which is offered to all comers. The Gemini system (a German product) is used by a number of mount manufacturers who lack the facilities to develop their own drive systems for internal production or for outsourcing. Losmandy is one of them.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
With the G11 I have CLUTCHES and can use the mount either as goto or not. CGE is dead in the water if something goes wrong with the electronics since there are no clutches. That in itself was enough reason for me.
I believe that you have that backwards. The Losmandy "clutches" cannot be positively engaged; they will always slip. That's fine if you always want them to. Most mounts have positively engaging clutches that can be set to slip or to not slip, giving more flexibility. The CGE is in that category.
--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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bseltzer
sage
Reged: 10/28/07
Posts: 306
Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA
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Quote:
German electronics are fine, now British electronics are quite another matter. When I owned British motorcycles and cars (BSA Lightning, Norton Combat Commando, and TR4-A) which I dearly loved, we used to call Lucas Electronics the "Prince of Darkness" ...
Chuck
After owning both a Triumph GT-6 and an MGB GT, I became convinced that the reason the English drink their beer at room temp is because Lucas also made most of their refrigerators.
More to the point, I opted for a G11 after spending a good deal of time on the Y! user groups for both Losmandy and CGE. What I learned there was that the G11 does have it's share of warts, but it typically has a bit less in the way of PE out of the box and can be made to approach AP/MI/Tak PE levels with reasonably priced modifications that the average user can install himself.
The country of origin is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
-Bert
Edited by bseltzer (10/29/09 09:14 PM)
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wasyoungonce
member
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 79
Loc: Land Downunder
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Chuck
After owning both a Triumph GT-6 and an MGB GT, I became convinced that the reason the English drink their beer at room temp is because Lucas also made most of their refrigerators.
-Bert
Classic! I love it.
The reason I'm just about to buy a G11 instead of a CGE is that I can source almost any & every part down to the smallest screw, easily.
But I just wish I they had something better than the Gemini goto. I suppose I'll get used to it but I'll be going from an 8 line LCD with multiple menus/sub-menus (a gotostar system) to a single line readout... 
I suppose the offset is that I'll be going from an EQ5 to a mount that is properly engineered.
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C8, Skywatcher ED80 Pro,
WO ZS 70ED, Canon 450D,
QHY 5 "Q" Guider, Eyeball Mark 1
G11/ Gemini Lvl 4 ver 1.04
http://picasaweb.google.com/brokenback09
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lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
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Ok, fellas lets stay the course here please.
--------------------
Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
German electronics are fine, now British electronics are quite another matter. When I owned British motorcycles and cars (BSA Lightning, Norton Combat Commando, and TR4-A) which I dearly loved, we used to call Lucas Electronics the "Prince of Darkness" ...
Chuck
Now we're talking Halloween-type frightening electronics!
I've owned two CGEs. I must say that I have a soft spot for them. A couple of things to consider. The first is a really bad omission from the manual; the Alt adjustment set screws...well, the fact that the manual DOESN'T MENTION THEM! If you attempt to adjust the Alt axis without loosening the set screws, you can scar the inner part of the axis. Not good.
Next, the stock RA and Dec cables are too stiff and in the Dec. case too stiff AND too short. The cables need to be replaced with these. With the stock cable, it is inevitable that you'll get Error 17 messages and the dreaded runaway Dec slews. In my experience, and that of many other CNers, these cables are magic. No error messages and no runaway slews.
The PA routine included in the firmware is terrific. However, adjusting the Alt and Az is not very precise when trying to use a simple allen wrench. Most use a 1/4" drive ratchet with the proper allen socket. It's easier to make the fine adjustment.
The pre-2005 models had some real QC problems. But that's been ironed out. Put this thing on a nice, solid pier and it is a very good obs mount. Ask our own torturer of the CGE, Jerry Wise, just what the ole' girl will do even with a lot stuff on it.
Suffice it to say, both are good mounts, but if I had to downsize from my MI250, it would be a CGE.
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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And what kind of PE does the CGE have compared to the newer G-11 mounts that have 5-7" peak to peak? I have heard it is at least 2x this, true or false? You have a bit of experiences with them so I thought I would ask.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Quote:
Quote:
With the G11 I have CLUTCHES and can use the mount either as goto or not. CGE is dead in the water if something goes wrong with the electronics since there are no clutches. That in itself was enough reason for me.
I believe that you have that backwards. The Losmandy "clutches" cannot be positively engaged; they will always slip. That's fine if you always want them to. Most mounts have positively engaging clutches that can be set to slip or to not slip, giving more flexibility. The CGE is in that category.
OK these two posts were contradictory - so the CGE does have clutches and can be operated in traditional mode?
Also can you fit setting circles to the CGE?
-drl
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darylf96
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/28/04
Posts: 1391
Loc: Danville, California
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Quote:
While I considered all the available info regarding my decision on which to go with and the repair issues definately played a part in my decision ie cant get parts no matter how simple but have to send the mount back instead, I went with the G11 primarily for one reason.
With the G11 I have CLUTCHES and can use the mount either as goto or not. CGE is dead in the water if something goes wrong with the electronics since there are no clutches. That in itself was enough reason for me.
I agree with this assessment. I have owned both mounts, recently sold my CGE. The G-11 has clutches, and that IS a very important difference. I found the lack of clutch control on the CGE was very inconvenient. The G-11 ia also easier to polar align, and I find that I can get perfect polar alignment very quickly with the polar finder alone, and rarely need to tweak the alignment with drift corrections. The G-11 is also easier to set up and break down. There are also other common problems with the CGE. I had problems with the limiting switches, cable connectors and an apparently popular software glitch that required setting to "Factory Defaults" to get go-to to work. The G-11 is also more flexible. I just installed DSC on mine, which is not possible with the CGE. The CGE is a good mount, and many astro imagers like this mount. My preference is subjective, but probably shared by others who have owned both mounts. There is also the issue of build quality, fit and finish - the G-11 is a beaut in this regard.
Regards
Daryl
--------------------
Intes Micro MN66 - Meade 10" SCT
Orion EON 120mmm ED f7.5 Apo
Skywatcher 150mm f8 Achro
G-11, CG5A-GT Mounts
DM-6 With Sky Commander DSC
Astro-Tech AT80 Refractor f6.9 APO
Stellarvue 20x85 binos - Unimount
Kunming United Optics 7x50 binocs
Canon Rebel XT, Canon 20D, Canon SXi
SBIG ST-8XE
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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OK lets try this one more time ...
The CGE HAS CLUTCHES that can be controlled by the user.
The CGE has a s/w based polar alignment routine that DOES NOT require the use of a polar alignment scope. It's very simple and very accurate and works when you can't see Polaris.
CGEs out of the box have a similar PE to the G11s. Pick a few good examples of a G11 and you can find equivalent CGEs, point out some bad ones and you can find some similar CGEs. Both vary.
CGEs are easily adjustable for backlash and gear preload and runout which can dramatically affect PE measurements.
CGEs can have their firmware updated in minutes online - no need to handle the electronics (change EPROMS) as on the G11. The firmware is stable and has been for quite a while.
The CGE is not available as a manual mount so DCSs are irrelevant and it does not have setting circles.
Add $10 in cables and you'll have no problems with connectors.
Both mounts have their good and bad points and individuals are going to have their preferences for one vs. the other but lets at least stop the discussion of wrong information.
--------------------
Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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RodgerHouTex
member
Reged: 06/02/09
Posts: 44
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I purchased a CGE mount about 6 months ago. Out of the box the electonics did not work. On power up I got errors 16 and 17 (handbox not communicating with the motor controllers). The vendor suggested that I flash the handbox, which I did. Now on power up I got nothing on the handbox. It was just dead. I also had to tighten all of the screws on the tripod because they were loose. Why was that missed at the factory? Anyway, I sent the CGE mount back and got a G-11. Worked perfectly out of the box and haven't looked back. I have also recently purchase a GM-8. Same situation, a beatiful mount that worked right out of the box. It's also easy to get support for the Losmandy mounts. I needed the vixen dovetail plate for the GM-8. Called Astronomics, they special ordered it from Losmandy, who drop shipped it, and I received the plate within 5 days.
So my experience would recommend the Losmandy mounts. Good luch with your decision.
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Doesn't the G11 have non-Polaris based polar alignment via computer software?
-drl
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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"The CGE has a s/w based polar alignment routine that DOES NOT require the use of a polar alignment scope. It's very simple and very accurate and works when you can't see Polaris."
I would add that for visual use, when you can see Polaris, you don't even need to mess with the polar alignment routine; using the finder on the OTA to center Polaris and eye-balling is accurate enough for the software to keep targets near center in a 0.5 degree FOV using a 2-star alignment with 3 calibration stars.
My understanding of the Gemini system is that to get the same kind of accuracy you need to more accurately polar align the mount, and to use more alignment stars.
Personally, I wish Celstron would OEM the Nexstar software to other manufacturers. I would rather have a Losmandy or Moutain Instruments mount with Nexstar than Gemini. I also don't think doing so would adversely impact Celestron's buisness. Neither Losmandy nor MI produce enough volume to make a huge dent in Celestron's marketshare. By licensing Nexstar to others, Celestron effectively gets to "tax" competitive mount sales; in other words even when Celestron loses a sale, it still gets part of the revenue via a software royalty.
Synta too would be wise to scrap its own SynScan software and instead adopt subsidiary Celestron's NexStar.
Regards,
Jim
--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Boy do I agree here. My IT buddies used to fantasize that IBM would decouple Workplace Shell from OS/2 and offer it for Windows or Linux. Now IBM does not even sell PCs, much less OS software.
So is there a way of controlling the G11 just from a computer, without the intervention of the Gemini system?
-drl
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Quote:
And what kind of PE does the CGE have compared to the newer G-11 mounts that have 5-7" peak to peak? I have heard it is at least 2x this, true or false?
Blueman
I've had my CGE about a year. I don't remember offhand the out-of-the-box raw PE, but I know it was between 10 to 20 arcsecs. However, the raw PE doesn't mean an awful lot to me (within reason). IMHO what matters more is how smooth the PE curve is, which translates to good guiding. That's where my disappointment was with the CGE.
My sample might not have been typical, but the guiding data showed quite a bit of "noise". Looking at the data, there was a big signature at a period of 14.5 secs which ended up being the tooth rate of the last gear inside the servo-motor. With modification I improved it (typical pre/post graph attached), but I'm still working on trying to get it smoother.
I think I remember you posted a graph showing great PE and very little drive noise on your G-11. I'm thinking the G-11 might be more "tweakable" than the CGEs are.
al
--------------------
al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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IBM has its brand of UNIX (called "AIX") for servers but you're right that it no longer offers a proprietary PC OS.
I assume that there must be a way to control a Losmandy Gemini mount from a laptop, but I already dislike all of the electronic equipment and resulting localized light pollution my GOTO hand controller and dew controller create. The glare of even a red-lighted laptop monitor would make me cry.
I would love the following: A compact alt-az mount capable of a 20# payload with DSCs capable of running for a solid month on a single 9V Lithium battery, and a mechanical tracking drive - you know, like the weight-driven clockwork drives on the old Unitron EQ mounts?
That would be a sweet travel/eclipse chaser set-up.
Regards,
Jim
--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Personally, I wish Celstron would OEM the Nexstar software to other manufacturers. I would rather have a Losmandy or Moutain Instruments mount with Nexstar than Gemini. I also don't think doing so would adversely impact Celestron's buisness. Neither Losmandy nor MI produce enough volume to make a huge dent in Celestron's marketshare. By licensing Nexstar to others, Celestron effectively gets to "tax" competitive mount sales; in other words even when Celestron loses a sale, it still gets part of the revenue via a software royalty.
Your going to get branded as a heretic. Might want to go to confession before you know who comes out from under the bridge. 
--------------------
If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
So is there a way of controlling the G11 just from a computer, without the intervention of the Gemini system?
-drl
Sounds like a potential Tak customer. 
--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Yes, the Gemini has two different Polar Alignment programs, Polar Alignment Correction and Polar Alignment Assist. Both work well, but the Correction is easier and quicker to use for me.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Actually the last graph shows that the PE is pretty low as far as corrections are concerned. Average correction is quite low.
Now, corrections and actual PE are related, but not the same of course. But in the end it does show the guiding ability of the mount.
You might try running PemPro on the mount or run PHD with the Guiding Corrections disabled and see what the log show
But overall, the CGE looks pretty good really.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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The Gemini system with the servo motors are required to do slews for Go-To, even with a program like The Sky as the stepper motors are not really meant to slew.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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Here is a link to a user's manual. It'll help give you an idea of what you'll get. I myself have never tried polar axis correction or polar align assist. I'm still getting used to the features. The polar scope has performed well enough for me thus far.
http://www.losmandy.com/losmandygoto/gemini_manual.pdf
--------------------
8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Or some one ready for one of the after market systems that don't require the Gemini at all. One example is buying the base G11 and then using an aftermarket upgrade to go to like the Si Tech or others.
--------------------
If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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LarsZ
super member
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 115
Loc: Sweden
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I bought my CGE a little more than a year ago and have measured my PE twice. The first time it was +- 6.3. The second time +- 5.9 out-of-the-box (the difference may be due to different seeing conditions).
A fellow astronomer who bought his just before me had a PE of +- 6.2 so they seem fairly consistent.
In that respect a new G-11 and a CGE seem very close indeed.
I should add that I have not enocuntered any problem with my CGE at all and I really really like the new polar alignement routine.
However, I did switch to Marty's cables just to be on the safe side...
If have no experience of the G-11, but after reading several reviews, the CGE and the G-11 seem to be very close in performance.
I chose the CGE because I got a very good deal, and I was already used to the Celestron handcontrol and Nexremote.
/Lars
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Rebel XSi, IDAS LPS, CGE 9.25, Orion SSAG, Starblast 4.5
Edited by LarsZ (10/30/09 04:09 PM)
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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Quote:
Actually the last graph shows that the PE is pretty low as far as corrections are concerned. Average correction is quite low.
Now, corrections and actual PE are related, but not the same of course. But in the end it does show the guiding ability of the mount.
You might try running PemPro on the mount or run PHD with the Guiding Corrections disabled and see what the log show
But overall, the CGE looks pretty good really.
Blueman
I've logged the mount unguided before but with PEC enabled. Of course what I saw was basically the same "noise" signature (roughly 4 arcsec p-p, with the same predominate 14.5sec period) modulated by the residual PE. The residual PE (again, with PEC on) was pretty low at about 3 arcsec p-p.
I didn't mean to say I was still unhappy with my CGE. It's a burly mount, I like the HC software better than the Gemini system, and now after working over the servomotor I think it's running well (as shown in the second graph).
However, although it's a close call, if I had it to do over again I'd probably go for the G-11 because it looks (to me anyway) like the mount is bit more straightforward to tune & tweak. I also like some of the design choices in the G-11 that I hadn't considered, e.g.: the clutch design, the 360 tooth worm wheel, the polar scope configuration, and the RA tracking limits.
al
--------------------
al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Just a contrary opinion on the discussions here: the comparisons between the G11 and the CGE could be considered to be about the quality and cost-effectiveness of the mount, not the mount plus go-to software.
I'm purchasing a G11 in large part because it's a high-quality mount that is available without go-to. That option is increasingly rare (I've heard that Orion is dropping it for the Atlas), but it's worth mentioning. Not everyone wants to use go-to. I have used it, and frankly, I don't like it, so spending an extra grand on a CGE to get something I don't want turned out to be a big part of my decision-making process.
I appreciate that this is likely a minority opinion, but I would suggest distinguishing between "G11 the mount" and "G11 + Gemini software". Viewed in this light, Losmandy gives a wider range of options, including getting the very high quality mechanics for a much reduced price.
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Fair point.
However, the CGE is available for $2680. The non-GOTO G-11 is $2200. That's only a $320 rather than $1000 difference.
Regards,
Jim
--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7971
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
The CGE HAS CLUTCHES that can be controlled by the user.
I think this is mostly a matter of semantics really - the G-11 has slip clutches, and the CGE... well I don't exactly know what you'd call the design but it definitly works to engage the and disengage the drive.
--------------------
"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Fair point.
However, the CGE is available for $2680. The non-GOTO G-11 is $2200. That's only a $320 rather than $1000 difference.
Regards,
Jim
The later date upgrade to the Gemini is around $1.5K or a nice CGEM to go with your CGE if you want to keep it in the same context.
It's easy to sell a stand alone manual version when you have to bolt someone elses goto on it as just another step in the manufaturing process. I think the reason Orion are dropping the non-goto Atlas is it doesn't sell. Mind you the upgrade is only around $400 (or an 8" imaging Newt bar the change left over from the CGEM purchase).
--------------------
If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Jim:
Quote:
However, the CGE is available for $2680. The non-GOTO G-11 is $2200. That's only a $320 rather than $1000 difference.
That's actually a $480 difference, but...
I live in Norman, so my motto is "if Astronomics doesn't carry it, then I can live without it". The current price at Astronomics is $3000 for the CGE, and $2195 for the G-11, hence the difference is $805.
And since I'm a civil engineer, that rounds up to "a grand". We CE's aren't used to more than one or two significant figures!
My astronomy purchasing motto is "think galactically, but buy locally".
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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S'ok, you can see how good lawyers are at arithmetic from my post.
I generally buy from Astronomics as well, except in the rare instances when they are considerably higher than another vendor. The advantage for me in shopping at Astronomics is the fact that I avoid sales tax, which in California is over 9% these days. If, however, the Astronomics price plus shipping exceeds an in-California price plus shipping by more than $150 or so, I can't in good conscience pay more just because I like the retailer. To me, there's not enough "value add" in that case (though I do give Astronomics a little more price leeway than I do other out-of-California vendors out of respect for Astronomics' administration and support for CN).
For most folks, however, I think price is king, and an unqualified statement that one item is $1000 more than another, when in fact it really isn't if you shop around a bit, could misdirect folks struggling with the same buying decision. Now *that* sounds more like something a lawyer rather than an engineer would do!
Regards,
Jim
--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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wasyoungonce
member
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 79
Loc: Land Downunder
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Quote:
Jim:
...My astronomy purchasing motto is "think galactically, but buy locally".
Not if your using local dealers in Australia. Their prices are "astronomical" wrt to USA prices. With the Aussie $ at good exchange rates i can import a lot cheaper.
Only one guess needed as to why I just purchased a G11 & Gemini from Uncle Sam land.
--------------------
C8, Skywatcher ED80 Pro,
WO ZS 70ED, Canon 450D,
QHY 5 "Q" Guider, Eyeball Mark 1
G11/ Gemini Lvl 4 ver 1.04
http://picasaweb.google.com/brokenback09
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
For most folks, however, I think price is king, and an unqualified statement that one item is $1000 more than another, when in fact it really isn't if you shop around a bit, could misdirect folks struggling with the same buying decision.
Sorry to sow any confusion... that was not my intent (hence the use of the more ambiguous "a grand" instead of the precise "$1000.00" or such). Mea culpa...
I've been considering the G11 vs the CGE question for quite awhile, and am picking up my goto-less G11 tomorrow at Astronomics. As some other posters on this thread have observed, I appreciate the fact that parts are available for the G11, and that the mount can be fixed (and tuned) by those of us who like taking apart precision equipment. That's a big plus.
And for some strange reason, I just like star-hopping instead of fast slews. I've been a visual observer for over 40 years, and I enjoy the process of learning how to find new DSO's, or of visiting old friends via those well-worn and familiar paths in the stars.
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darylf96
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/28/04
Posts: 1391
Loc: Danville, California
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Unless you are unable to see Polaris, I don't understand why anyone makes a big deal about using a polar alignment scope. I can get very accurate polar alignments with the polar scope and reticle in 5 minutes. It is a simple, straight-forward procedure.
Daryl
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Intes Micro MN66 - Meade 10" SCT
Orion EON 120mmm ED f7.5 Apo
Skywatcher 150mm f8 Achro
G-11, CG5A-GT Mounts
DM-6 With Sky Commander DSC
Astro-Tech AT80 Refractor f6.9 APO
Stellarvue 20x85 binos - Unimount
Kunming United Optics 7x50 binocs
Canon Rebel XT, Canon 20D, Canon SXi
SBIG ST-8XE
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Unless you are unable to see Polaris, I don't understand why anyone makes a big deal about using a polar alignment scope. I can get very accurate polar alignments with the polar scope and reticle in 5 minutes. It is a simple, straight-forward procedure.
Daryl
I think the reasons are:
1) you don't have to buy a polar scope and can save some money.
2) it's much much easier to use the Celestron routine than the scope (and you don't need to see polaris)
--------------------
If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Quote:
Unless you are unable to see Polaris, I don't understand why anyone makes a big deal about using a polar alignment scope. I can get very accurate polar alignments with the polar scope and reticle in 5 minutes. It is a simple, straight-forward procedure.
Daryl
I think the reasons are:
1) you don't have to buy a polar scope and can save some money.
2) it's much much easier to use the Celestron routine than the scope (and you don't need to see polaris)
What Phil said. It's so easy to use the included PA routine that the polar scope becomes redundant. Save your money.
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
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I agree I don't have a polar scope for my AP 900 I just drift align. When I had a G-11 I had a polar scope but it was only accurate to about 10 arcminutes. I know I could have shimmed it to make it better but why bother when drift alignment is so easy especially with software assistance from programs such as Pempro?
--------------------
Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
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Arbacia
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/18/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Madrid, Spain
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My observation colleague has a G11 gemini, I own a CGE. He express some sort of admiration for my CGE as I do the same for his G11.
My impression is that both are extrematelly similar each other, but each one has peculiarities in the design and use the other has not in the same way.
Nobody mention the noise of the motors, lower and smoother in CGE as they are enclosed in the chasis.
Patricio
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LightBridge 12", 70´s C8, C11. CGE. ETX125
Set of Takahashi LE EPs; Ethos; DMK 31AF03.AS
CN image gallery
http://www.astrohenares.org
http://www.asociacionhubble.org
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hi David,
I think that if you take a simple straw poll of those that fall into the "Why bother with a polar scope?" category, you'd find that its more than likely that they are are also comprised of folks that have their mounts permanently mounted to begin with,
Its very easy to dispense with a function if its not a feature you neither need (due to permanent mounting) regularly, nor a is a gating prerequisite to your objective (photography) as performing a drift alignment may be.
In my case, my G-11 Gemini was always intended to also be my grab 'n go mount, so the polar alignment scope to me is a hard requirement for my visual, gawking sessions.
Regards,
skybsd
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Hi David,
I think that if you take a simple straw poll of those that fall into the "Why bother with a polar scope?" category, you'd find that its more than likely that they are are also comprised of folks that have their mounts permanently mounted to begin with,
I think that it's more of a generation gap. Folks who grew up knowing that a PAS was the only way to do it use 'em and don't explore alternatives. With easy alternatives built into so many controllers these days, folks who never got into the habit of using polar alignment scopes just naturally acquire the habit of the more modern methods.
My grab'n'go mount is a Vixen GP/DX with its very nice PAS but it's easier to use the SS2K. In the observatory I have a Tak with an even better PAS (probably about as good as they get) but it was easier to use PolarAlignMax when I installed it.
--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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Luigi
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4947
Loc: MA
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>>>"Why bother with a polar scope?" category, you'd find that its more than likely that they are are also comprised of folks that have their mounts permanently mounted to begin with,<<<
>>>Folks who grew up knowing that a PAS was the only way to do it use 'em and don't explore alternatives.<<<
Neither apply to me. I started before polar scopes were common and owned a non-Gemini G11 for 10+ years. For visual, I found (and still find) it easier to simply use a compass (allowing for magnetic dec) and setting latitude. This can be done without having Polaris visible and during day or dusk when setting up. For anything better, I'd add a quick drift align. It's only recently that I got a computerized mount (CG5) but I still prefer to star-hop and don't like bothering with doing star-alignments etc.. I just want it to track in RA. I'll do the polar alignment and locate the objects, thank you.
For imagers though, I can see where precise go-to and software assisted polar alignment (as in the Celestron) would be a real asset. It certainly works slick on my CG5 after I updated the MC and HC S/W to the latest versions from the Celestron website.
--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
For visual, I found (and still find) it easier to simply use a compass (allowing for magnetic dec) and setting latitude. This can be done without having Polaris visible and during day or dusk when setting up. For anything better, I'd add a quick drift align.
This is exactly the approach I've taken for many years, too. But I picked up a box-stock G11 yesterday (sans Gemini), and added the polar alignment scope as an option to learn whether it could cut down the time spent drift aligning. I've never used a polar scope before, and what better way to learn than just to do the experiment?
I'd say this worked pretty well. The attached image is a reduced (compressed and resized) version of the first image taken with this mount, and it's a 3-minute unguided exposure of Vega taken immediately after my perfunctory attempt at a quick polar align via the G11 polar scope.
This is taken using an AT66 (fl=400mm) piggybacked on a C11, with 35 lbs of counterweights. The field curvature of the AT66 is obvious, but the stars are nice and round in the central (non-vignetted) region of the image.
Long unguided exposures with the C11 (fl=1800) showed some trailing, but given how quick-and-dirty the polar alignment was, I'd say that using the polar scope works remarkably well for unguided imaging, and should work really well with an autoguider.
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AlanT
sage
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 488
Loc: 122º36' W, 47º37' N, WA USA
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This thread is really shifting, but personally I like using a polar scope when setting up at remote sites. I have and have used the polar scope for my CGE and even though it mounts separately (and temporarily since I don't leave it on the mount) I found it to be pretty accurate. I also use one with my GM-8 and found it to be accurate.
When setting up to do AP I: level the tripod; set up & align the mount using the polar scope; on power up, do a drift align 1st thing (which goes quick since it's very close to begin with), then do a quick pointing alignment (sometimes just one star). This gets me a great polar alignment with no guesswork, and because the polar is great, a quick pointing alignment is plenty good enough for me to find my targets.
For just visual I'd do it differently since the polar alignment isn't as critical, and pointing alignment becomes more important as there's a lot more slewing around the sky to see various objects.
Just my 0.02
al
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al
Meade 80mm APO
Celestron 6" SCT
CGE, GM-8, & CG-5 GT
ST-2000xcm, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro
( www.alberts-astro.com/astro )
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
I think that it's more of a generation gap. Folks who grew up knowing that a PAS was the only way to do it use 'em and don't explore alternatives. With easy alternatives built into so many controllers these days, folks who never got into the habit of using polar alignment scopes just naturally acquire the habit of the more modern methods.
It's an impact on comfort factor as well. Some like the way things were and don't like change. My guess is PA scopes will be around in 10 years time but newbies then will view them as relics and it'll be just the most stick in the mud old timers or the non goto folks using them.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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Arbacia
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/18/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Madrid, Spain
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Again I would like to have a PAS (why not? It should be nice to have another gatchet). However, in practice, I fount that is enough a raw initial alignment of about 10-12º away celestial pole as the 2+4 stars routine and the new Polar aligment of the Nexstar HC is really good. Of course, would be great to start with a few seconds away polar star and a sharp coordinates (with referential GPS) and time (atomic clock) but is not necesary for a good use of the telescope.
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LightBridge 12", 70´s C8, C11. CGE. ETX125
Set of Takahashi LE EPs; Ethos; DMK 31AF03.AS
CN image gallery
http://www.astrohenares.org
http://www.asociacionhubble.org
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hi David,
I think that if you take a simple straw poll of those that fall into the "Why bother with a polar scope?" category, you'd find that its more than likely that they are are also comprised of folks that have their mounts permanently mounted to begin with,
Its very easy to dispense with a function if its not a feature you neither need (due to permanent mounting) regularly, nor a is a gating prerequisite to your objective (photography) as performing a drift alignment may be.
In my case, my G-11 Gemini was always intended to also be my grab 'n go mount, so the polar alignment scope to me is a hard requirement for my visual, gawking sessions.
Regards,
skybsd
My comments were directed at the CGE. I may have not been very clear on that. Actually, my first CGE was not in an obs. When I used it visually, it was the ole' compass routine, then do the star alignment. Worked very well
For imaging, it was the compass, then the PA routine and it did well for imaging.
As John has mentioned, he has a Tak mount and as we mount junkies know, the Tak PA scope is THE best in the industry. Nobody does a PA scope like Tak. And when done right, the Tak guys don't even bother with a drift.
BUT...John did mention Polar Align Max. Now that's a PA routine!! Once it's figured out, it doesn't get any better.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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darylf96
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/28/04
Posts: 1391
Loc: Danville, California
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Unless you are unable to see Polaris, I don't understand why anyone makes a big deal about using a polar alignment scope. I can get very accurate polar alignments with the polar scope and reticle in 5 minutes. It is a simple, straight-forward procedure.
Daryl
I think the reasons are:
1) you don't have to buy a polar scope and can save some money.
2) it's much much easier to use the Celestron routine than the scope (and you don't need to see polaris)
What Phil said. It's so easy to use the included PA routine that the polar scope becomes redundant. Save your money.
David
Not everyone has a go-to system. In terms of cost savings, it would take me $1,650 for Gemini. Since I use DSC to locate objects, good PA is a big plus. Once learned, using the polar scope takes only a few minutes and is very effective. When it comes to comparing the G-11 to the CGE, I think that only those who have owned and used both mounts can make a fair comparison. I would like to hear from those who have owned both the G-11 and the CGE and sold one of them. It would be interesting which one they kept.
Daryl
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Intes Micro MN66 - Meade 10" SCT
Orion EON 120mmm ED f7.5 Apo
Skywatcher 150mm f8 Achro
G-11, CG5A-GT Mounts
DM-6 With Sky Commander DSC
Astro-Tech AT80 Refractor f6.9 APO
Stellarvue 20x85 binos - Unimount
Kunming United Optics 7x50 binocs
Canon Rebel XT, Canon 20D, Canon SXi
SBIG ST-8XE
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Not everyone has a go-to system. In terms of cost savings, it would take me $1,650 for Gemini. Since I use DSC to locate objects, good PA is a big plus. Once learned, using the polar scope takes only a few minutes and is very effective. When it comes to comparing the G-11 to the CGE, I think that only those who have owned and used both mounts can make a fair comparison. I would like to hear from those who have owned both the G-11 and the CGE and sold one of them. It would be interesting which one they kept.
Daryl
I had the CI-700 with Gemini and used a CGE. I now have a CGE Pro (same controller as the CGE. Hope that answers your question. If you want to see comments to my views on Gemini you can look at older posts. I personally think the Celestron controller is an order of magnitude up from the Gemini. And on that I'll not mention the Gemini again in this thread.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/02/09 06:28 AM)
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
I had the CI-700 with Gemini and used a CGE. I now have a CGE Pro (same controller as the CGE. Hope that answers your question. If you want to see comments to my views on Gemini you can look at older posts. I personally think the Celestron controller is an order of magnitude up from the Gemini
This is not a complaint, but merely an observation: this thread has evolved into a discussion of controllers and go-to software, not mounts. I can't speak for others, but I find it worthwhile to evaluate the mechanicals and the electronics separately, as each is a fundamental component, but also a distinct component.
Some manufacturers bundle the two together (e.g., Celestron), others do not (e.g. Losmandy). I can't speak to the needs of other CN-ers, but for me, mechanicals are by far the most important part of the picture, i.e., I'd much rather have constraints in slewing speed if the other side of the bargain is a rock-solid mount or a substantially reduced price tag or the ability to fix things myself.
After a couple nights of visual and imaging work with the new G-11, I gotta say that I am REALLY impressed with its design, construction, and assembly. I am going to have fun using this contraption for a long, long time.
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
This is not a complaint, but merely an observation: this thread has evolved into a discussion of controllers and go-to software, not mounts. I can't speak for others, but I find it worthwhile to evaluate the mechanicals and the electronics separately, as each is a fundamental component, but also a distinct component.
Some manufacturers bundle the two together (e.g., Celestron), others do not (e.g. Losmandy). I can't speak to the needs of other CN-ers, but for me, mechanicals are by far the most important part of the picture, i.e., I'd much rather have constraints in slewing speed if the other side of the bargain is a rock-solid mount or a substantially reduced price tag or the ability to fix things myself.
After a couple nights of visual and imaging work with the new G-11, I gotta say that I am REALLY impressed with its design, construction, and assembly. I am going to have fun using this contraption for a long, long time.
Well if you read the start of the thread it was comparing the G11 and the CGE. The CGE is only available with electronics, controller, goto etc. Therefore the comparison has to be like against like does it not?
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
The CGE is only available with electronics, controller, goto etc. Therefore the comparison has to be like against like does it not?
Good question, but I would say "no", it doesn't have to be "like against like".
A mount (controller or no) is just another technology, i.e., a set of engineered systems designed to provide some desired capability, such as tracking objects in the sky, or perhaps finding them from an atlas, or whatever one's requirements demand.
When we compare technological capabilities, we compare systems based on what capabilities we desire, not on what capabilities a technology supplier might want to sell us in addition to what we need. Our requirements are just that: our requirements.
So if I want to buy a land line telephone, and company A sells a good one for a reasonable price, while company B sells a similar one that also comes with home networking and video-on-demand at an increased price, it would be silly to add video and networking costs to company A's offering just so the comparison would be "like versus like". Wouldn't you agree?
Now if I really need these additional capabilities as part of my requirements, then the "like versus like" makes a lot of sense. But for those of us who don't require those (a priori unstated) requirements, not so much...
My point is simply that a thread titled "G11 vs CGE (not Pro)" in the MOUNTS section of Cloudy Nights might be considered to involve a comparison more oriented towards mount quality (i.e., capabilities, price, etc), and less oriented towards specific questions on the underlying software, especially when one of the mounts mentioned is widely available without controller software.
Your mileage may vary, of course, but since you asked...
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7331Peg
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 733
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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Quote:
... When it comes to comparing the G-11 to the CGE, I think that only those who have owned and used both mounts can make a fair comparison. I would like to hear from those who have owned both the G-11 and the CGE and sold one of them. It would be interesting which one they kept.
Daryl
I had a CGE for two years and had no problems with it whatever. But at two years, the warranty expired, and the thought of having to send it back to Celestron if something went wrong and wrestling with them over repairs was not all that appealing. Since it couldn't be used manually if it malfunctioned, I thought it was time for a change.
I bought the basic G11 without the Gemini system because I really didn't need GOTO any longer - and it was just too much additional money in my opinion to add a feature that wasn't important to me.
The G11 should last forever. It's very well built, it's well thought out, it's simple, and it holds far more weight than I intend to put on it. Even the tripod is more basic than the CGE tripod, and it's as solid as a rock.
When the mount is properly polar aligned, it seems like it tracks all night without adjustment.
Again, I never had a problem with the CGE, and I certainly wasn't dissatisfied with it. But mechanically and electronically it was more complex, and therefore more expensive to repair should it fail, so I felt it was time for something more basic and easier to repair.
It just came down to the old KISS concept.
John
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Good question, but I would say "no", it doesn't have to be "like against like".
So if I want to buy a land line telephone, and company A sells a good one for a reasonable price, while company B sells a similar one that also comes with home networking and video-on-demand at an increased price, it would be silly to add video and networking costs to company A's offering just so the comparison would be "like versus like". Wouldn't you agree?
Your mileage may vary, of course, but since you asked...
Ah no your logic is more like rating cars without engines based on which one has the best suspension system when you push it down the road. Hey but if thats important to you.
The majority of people who buy a G11 or CGE us it as a go to mount. Non got sales are dwindling (Orion are dropping the Atlas non goto due to that reason). It's easy for the G11 as goto is an after market item and bolted on as a step in the process.
The G11 mechanically is not a bad mount and you can spend a lot of money making it a better mount (it'll never be an AP as some folks pretend but it's not bad).
Electronically it's a different story and if the board fries for either mount your not repairing it at home, for most folks your sending the board/servo's back.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7971
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
(Orion are dropping the Atlas non goto due to that reason)
...but Skywatcher still sells the identical mount with a dual axis controller, so it's not as if the manufacturer stopped making the dual axis drive version. It could be just as easily argued that Orion decided to stop offering the dual axis controller in order to boost sales on the go-to model that were being lost to them because of the EQMOD ASCOM driver. It's hard to know for sure why companies do what they do. I've given up trying to second guess this kind of thing.
To put the conversation back on track though, comparisons between the CGE and G-11's electronics do seem to inevitably arise whenever someone starts a thread looking for comparisons. I don't think that makes taking the electronics out of the equation for a bit a fruitless gesture, even if it sort of takes the CGE out of the conversation when you do it. The subject still should be covered, if for no other reason than providing thorough coverage of the options.
Here's an article on one guys impressions of the dual axis drive G-11. Hope it helps.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Ah no your logic is more like rating cars without engines based on which one has the best suspension system when you push it down the road.
With all due respect, Phil, that's not even close to the situation at hand. If you think a GEM without a Go-To system is like a car without an engine, then you simply live in a different astronomy world than I do.
And if you truly believe your analogy is apt, then I'll point out that a very robust market exists for "cars without engines"... those are called bicycles, and lots of folks (me included) enjoy that simpler form of technology for a lot of the same reasons we might eschew mounts that don't work if the Go-To system goes on the fritz, e.g., the desire for simplicity, quiet, etc.
What I would suggest you do to appreciate the underlying point is simple: look at thread titles in the mounts section of Cloudy Nights. See how often terms like "G11 with Gemini" or "G11/Gemini" show up, to indicate that the thread refers to a mount AND a distinct controller setup.
And then note the title of this thread. That should do the trick...
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Charlie:
Quote:
...but Skywatcher still sells the identical mount with a dual axis controller, so it's not as if the manufacturer stopped making the dual axis drive version. It could be just as easily argued that Orion decided to stop offering the dual axis controller in order to boost sales on the go-to model that were being lost to them because of the EQMOD ASCOM driver.
This is exactly the approach I considered when looking at the Atlas. It seemed to me that the difference in price between the non-go-to and the go-to versions of the Atlas was enough to permit purchase of a really good netbook for running EQMOD and other astronomy software. That provides the best of both worlds, and you get a netbook thrown in for free.
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Just because the OP didn't use the term Gemini doesn't mean that he wasn't intending it to be discussed by default. The vast majority of folks who discuss the G11 by default include Gemini. The fact that you don't is fine ... just go ahead and start another thread.
Manual mounts are a distant minority in terms of interest so we can assume when someone refers to a mount that by default they are also interested in the controller. If someone says "I'm comparing a G11 to a CGE" they are simply far more likely to mean the controllers too.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Just because the OP didn't use the term Gemini doesn't mean that he wasn't intending it to be discussed by default. ... The fact that you don't is fine ... just go ahead and start another thread.
And it also doesn't mean that he DID intend it to be discussed by default. Hence no need to start another thread.
I'll note that the OP did include this suggestion... "And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome."
I think we've managed to achieve THAT goal!
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7971
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
I'll note that the OP did include this suggestion... "And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome."
I think we've managed to achieve THAT goal!
It happens a lot when you put these two mounts together for a comparo - people love their mounts, and they tend to defend their opinions and choices vigorusly. As long as they can do so without getting out of hand (rude or nasty or personal with each other) I'm okay with it.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
Good question, but I would say "no", it doesn't have to be "like against like".
Comparing a non-gemini G-11 to a CGE, with your reasoning, would result in the G-11 being the hands down winner based on price alone. CGE's electronics would be useless to someone not taking advantage of them. Certainly, these added useless electronics, present a potential time bomb, which if exploded, would result in months of not being able to use the mount.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Since the Losmandy setup is modular, have people attempted to fit it with say an Autostar and encoders? That is can you just get the DSS kit and retrofit your own GOTO system?
I would likely get the Gemini system but man it looks to be about 15 years out of date.
As long as the G11 can be controlled from a computer, the CGE loses its main advantage.
-drl
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Quote:
I'll note that the OP did include this suggestion... "And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome." I think we've managed to achieve THAT goal!
Very true ... and I hope that my comments didn't come across as dismissive about your postings so far ... I was more concerned that we'd end up with a long emotional discussion about star hopping and DSCs vs. goto etc.
If that happened I was going to get the popcorn out ... 
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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Just wanted to comment that Celestron apparently will sell parts for the CGE? I am only a year with my CGE and have several cases with tech support - I always emphasize that I don't want to send in my mount - and can they just sell me the parts.
Recently my CGE started having a prob that makes it sound like a popcorn popper and tracking/goto/alignment is goofed. Took some time but tech support has responded that they will sell me the needed bearings.
Also talking about the circuit boards with the rj connections being very oxidized and poor voltage/amperage from a bad connection and could I buy new boards, so far the response has been 'affirmative'.
Some may have issues with me needing to buy the parts for a mount not a year old and flubbing, but that's another issue, and really I'm ok with it if I can keep from losing the mount for a few months.
I find the CGE mount and electronics pier to be extremely easy to work on, take apart and back together, without micrometers and calipers and etc. Seems a shame they have such a bad rap for after sales support and making replacement parts (un)available. Maybe they have taken notice of loss of market share to Losmandy bcause of this?
That said, I have not as of today actually received any parts, and am still trying to get part numbers - it has taken over a week for some.
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- 
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
I would like to hear from those who have owned both the G-11 and the CGE and sold one of them. It would be interesting which one they kept.
Hi Daryl
That's fair enough, but many of us who put a lot of research into the decision G-11 vs. CGE have also applied considerable prior mount experience into the equation. AP aside, which I have no experience with, these two mounts are so evenly matched that it really does come down to esthetics, goto ease, being able to use the mount w/o goto, and being able to repair the mount yourself.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Just wanted to comment that Celestron apparently will sell parts for the CGE?
I don't see why not. I've purchased parts (including motors) for other Celestron mounts over the years at what seemed to be very fair prices.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Since the Losmandy setup is modular, have people attempted to fit it with say an Autostar and encoders?
It's been done but it isn't easy. You have to remove the existing stepper drives and find a way to mount servo motors and to hook them up to the drive train. Lots of fabrication involved.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hi Steve,
I couldn't agree more - and have actual experience in this regard.
I decided to go with the G-11/Gemini over the CGE in the end. Mechanically and function feature comparisons resulted in no clear (knock-out punch) winner.
The deciding factor ended up being the maintainability of the G11/Gemini vs the RMA-only option that saddles the CGE. And I can tell you, if you guys think the turnaround time for a CGE repair is long there in the US - consider what its like here in the UK.
Here's a hint - an RMA'd CGE get shipped back to the US 
Regards,
skybsd
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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You know, there is no way to compare the two mounts without having some personal feelings about them.
Either mount seems to be a good mount. Each seems to have its own good and bad points. The real choice is which mount has the attributes that you are looking for and the least number of bad points.
For me, I decided on the G-11. This was based on its ability to track past the meridian, which I needed for photography. Plus it had the capability of being modified with existing after market parts and the availability of these parts for most everything such as bearings from about any bearing house.
Then I liked the CNC manufactured parts, just a better way to do this in my opinion.
I also liked the very solid tripod, it is like a portable pier compared to a tripod.
But, each person may have different requirements or likes when they look at equipment. This is why there are so many to choose from today.
But one thing about the G-11. It has been around for quite a while and parts are pretty much interchangeable, so you can still work on an old one or a new one. They are easy to work on and do not require special tools. You can disassemble them and clean and lube them in an afternoon. Plus, I am willing to bet that they will still be available for quite a while to come.
If Celestron decides to discontinue the mount, like Meade has done with the LX-200, then I have no idea of where you will find parts for them in the future. This too could be a consideration for most.
Buy what you like, will use and will meet your requirements and you will be happy. But try to find a consensus of opinion and you will drive yourself crazy!
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Ah no your logic is more like rating cars without engines based on which one has the best suspension system when you push it down the road.
With all due respect, Phil, that's not even close to the situation at hand. If you think a GEM without a Go-To system is like a car without an engine, then you simply live in a different astronomy world than I do.
And if you truly believe your analogy is apt, then I'll point out that a very robust market exists for "cars without engines"... those are called bicycles, and lots of folks (me included) enjoy that simpler form of technology for a lot of the same reasons we might eschew mounts that don't work if the Go-To system goes on the fritz, e.g., the desire for simplicity, quiet, etc.
I do goto astronomy. Push to also if you count my WO EZ Touch with Argo or my Dob with Argo. Computerized astronomy is where the industry is for the most part.
If you think that's not accurate, poll a few manufacturers of mounts, not just the little shops and see what is selling dumb mounts or smart mounts (hey if the names work for bombs).
As for pedal power good for you. That means there will be gas around longer for my SUV and Supercharged Mustang (8 MPG).
As for look at the thread there is no CGE without the electronics controller it doesn't work, so the threads compare couldn't take place as a like for like. Non functioning Vs dumb mount wouldn't be much of a review.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
I do goto astronomy. Push to also if you count my WO EZ Touch with Argo or my Dob with Argo. Computerized astronomy is where the industry is for the most part.
I agree. Computerized astronomy is great technology.
In fact, Starmap Pro running on my iPod has revolutionized my ability to find new DSO's -- it's the best star chart I've ever owned, and it also works as a flashlight and a music supply (something my Skalnate Pleso charts never quite managed to do)
And there's EOS_movrec for planetary imaging via my DSLR and laptop, and remote focusing tools for those DSO's at the zenith, too..
And when I finally get around to wiring up my guide scope/camera to my mount so Ph.D. guiding can track DSO's via my netbook, I'll have a very nice computerized setup... and one that can also check my e-mail during daylight hours, too. What's not to like about that?
And all using a "dumb" mount, too. Go figure...
But you're absolutely right: computerized astronomy is where it's at!
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
And all using a "dumb" mount, too. Go figure...
But you're absolutely right: computerized astronomy is where it's at!
There is hope for the world
Enjoy while you can. I doubt there will be many new dumb mounts available in 5 years or so. With Orion dropping the Atlas Dual motor it's likely SkyWatcher will follow as inventory drops.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Enjoy while you can. I doubt there will be many new dumb mounts available in 5 years or so. With Orion dropping the Atlas Dual motor it's likely SkyWatcher will follow as inventory drops.
Well, since this "dumb" mount should be maintainable virtually forever (I have access to great machine shop facilities, including CNC capabilities), I would translate "enjoy it while you can" as "enjoy it forever".
So thanks for your vote of confidence!
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Maybe you should start a dumb mount vs dumb mount thread? Trouble is there is not much out there any more. Seems to indicate where the market has gone.
As for mount life expectancy, I view that as about 3 - 5 years, a little longer than most folks keep cars, then buy a new mount. Next will probably be a harmonic drive, even less mechanical parts.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Hi Phil,
Wish I could afford to replace the mount every 3-5 years! The cost of a mount today, if you are talking about upgrading each time, is getting closer to the cost of a car! 
I do know people that have been using their G-11 for many years, they still are not looking to replace it. I guess that it all depends on what you need and what you can afford.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Hi Phil,
Wish I could afford to replace the mount every 3-5 years! The cost of a mount today, if you are talking about upgrading each time, is getting closer to the cost of a car!
Blueman
The cost wasn't extreme on my current mount (CGE Pro)was less than 1/6th - 1/7th a cars cost. Mind you my next mount in 2 - 4 years will probably cost double the Pro's cost. Everyone has their "cost of ownership" for me it's cheaper to buy than to use vaulable time to nurse an older mount or run around getting kit machined/repaired. I honstly don't have the time to waste on that, I'd rather be collecting photons with my eye.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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Howie_in_AZ
member
Reged: 09/03/09
Posts: 12
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I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but the G-11 can get down to +/- 3.5 arcseconds (or better!) of periodic error with a $500 worm add-on from a French company called Ovision.
+/- 3.5 arcseconds is what the higher-end Takahashi, AP1200, AP900, and ParamountME mounts offer.
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Hi Phil,
Must be nice to have the finances to allow you to do this. 
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but the G-11 can get down to +/- 3.5 arcseconds (or better!) of periodic error with a $500 worm add-on from a French company called Ovision.
+/- 3.5 arcseconds is what the higher-end Takahashi, AP1200, AP900, and ParamountME mounts offer.
And as a purely visual observer over the standard G11 or CGE this buys me?????
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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I have the Ovision worm, great add on for sure.
If you want a mount for photography, then some things become more important. If you are a visual only kind of guy, then the Atlas will work just fine and save you a bit of money.
An AP mount would be wasted on just visual, they were made to do photography and this is one of the reasons they cost so much.
My G-11 has less than 4" peak to peak of PE uncorrected and as a photographer, this is very important to me.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hello Howie,
Quote:
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but the G-11 can get down to +/- 3.5 arcseconds (or better!) of periodic error with a $500 worm add-on from a French company called Ovision.
+/- 3.5 arcseconds is what the higher-end Takahashi, AP1200, AP900, and ParamountME mounts offer.
To be fair, whilst PE reduction is what the Ovision upgrade is supposed to deliver, actually acheiving those results is neither guaranteed, nor straight-forward.
Further, as a G-11/Gemini owner myself, I do sometimes cringe when I see others making statements that suggest that "all you have to do is get this or that aftermarket G11 upgrade and you'll end up with PME, or Astro-Physics quality performance".
No doubt lots of G11/Gemini owners love and are enthusiastic about their mounts - but some do go overboard.
Regards,
skybsd
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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An Atlas mount is in a different weight capacity. Some folks say the G11, CGE work well visually with a C14. I find that doesn't work for me as it's pushing the mounts capabilities. Add a widefield to the mix on a dual and your asking for frustration. One scope I run is a Meade 14" SCT and neither the G11 or CGE have the capability to handle that scope even visually. So suggesting buy an Atlas and save money might not be an option if you don't know what the mount is being used for. There are more reasons that folks buy mounts other than imaging. Using your logic you could also say if it's not photons hitting the back of your eye you might as well just bookmark the Hubble Heritage site and save money.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hello Phil,
Quote:
Some folks say the G11, CGE work well visually with a C14. I find that doesn't work for me as it's pushing the mounts capabilities.
Actually, I am someone with a C-14 sitting on a G11/Gemini. As a visual-only observer, to me, its actually fine. 
Also, there are folks that even image with this set up too, for that matter.
Regards,
skybsd
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7971
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but the G-11 can get down to +/- 3.5 arcseconds (or better!) of periodic error with a $500 worm add-on from a French company called Ovision.
+/- 3.5 arcseconds is what the higher-end Takahashi, AP1200, AP900, and ParamountME mounts offer.
And as a purely visual observer over the standard G11 or CGE this buys me?????
To bring the point full circle it buys exactly as much as go-to does for someone who prefers to star hop. Folks get enjoyment out of this hobby in an amazing number of ways. None of them deserve to be discounted. Let's not take the conversation further down that road if we can help it.
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
To bring the point full circle it buys exactly as much as go-to does for someone who prefers to star hop. Folks get enjoyment out of this hobby in an amazing number of ways. None of them deserve to be discounted. Let's not take the conversation further down that road if we can help it.
Well said. And thanks for saying it.
These mount discusssions on Cloudy Nights have been invaluable assets for me as I worked through decision-making on what to purchase. Unlike Phil, I'd rather take my time deciding on an astronomy investment, and then enjoy those choices for decades. One of my current GEM's is my 40 year old Edmund Scientific mount, and it still works well enough to handle an 8-inch reflector or my 80mm long-focus refractor.
I'd enjoy seeing more in the way of "results" and less in the way of "assertion" on this forum, as that's what really helps us make the best decisions for our own requirements -- that's why I posted a first-light picture from my new G11. The idea that a box-stock affordable mount can handle multi-minute unguided exposures with 40 lbs of telescopes hanging off it and virtually no star trailing was quite a revelation for me, and it may be for others.
And in that vein, here's another quick picture, from my second night of testing this mount. This is from my trusty old C8 with its new Losmandy dovetail, and it's a stack of 20 one-minute JPEG exposures of NGC253, no darks, no flats, no RAW conversions, no noise reduction, and with a nearby full moon to make things truly interesting. I used a quick-and-dirty polar alignment (which I promptly messed up by stepping on one of the tripod legs), and I only took up astrophotography this summer, as I'm a long-time visual observer. So I admit that I don't know what I'm doing. The only processing was a quick average stack and a couple stretches in Nebulosity to take out the serious skyglow, so this data needs a lot more work...
But I'd say the G11 does a fine job of making me look like I know what I'm doing. I'm looking forward to seeing what these images look like properly processed to reduce the vignetting and the sensor noise. And with a good drift alignment, this thing looks like it's going to be great for both visual and photographic uses.
And if Phil wants to donate his used CGE to me, I'll be glad to perform head-to-head tests, because my other astronomy motto is "any mount is lots better than no mount".
I don't think I'll be trading up from this mount for a long, long time. This one is a keeper!
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Well if I needed any prodding that does it, it's the G11 for me. Thanks to all who contributed.
-drl
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HaleBopper
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 500
Loc: Great White North
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Congratulations. You'll love it.
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8" SCT Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
Kodak Easyshare 2.0 Megapixels
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Pentax 10 mm XW
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hi,
Glad to know that you were able to make a decision at the end.
Hope it all works out, and that you enjoy the mount.
Regards,
skybsd
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Brian L
super member
Reged: 11/17/08
Posts: 119
Loc: The garden paradise of Pittsbu...
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I have a '53 MG TD and I can second that. I hope Lucas does not make the starter solenoids in Harrier jump-jets.
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WO FLT-110 f/6.5, TEC optics
Losmandy G-11 Gemini
Meade 10" LX200 GPS/UHTC
Questar 3.5" Standard
Vixen VMC-110L
Canon 450D, unmodified
Assortment of TV Panoptic, TV Radian, Vixen LVW, and WO eyepieces
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Unlike Phil, I'd rather take my time deciding on an astronomy investment.
----------------------------------------------------
Your make an assertion that I just pick a mount in seconds and then buy it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
----------------------------------------------------
I'd enjoy seeing more in the way of "results" and less in the way of "assertion" on this forum.
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Like the one you made above
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And if Phil wants to donate his used CGE to me
I don't donate mounts (mine is the CGE Pro not the CGE) they end up boxed up and sitting in the cellar. Have an Atlas EQ-G, ASGT and a G9 retired down there at the moment. When I get a harmonic drive in the next couple of years the CGE-Pro will join the others. Mind you I did donate a 10" Dob to the local scouts last year. For those nights of wanting to get back to basics theres the EZ Touch with the Argo, star hopping for the 21st Century.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Unlike Phil, I'd rather take my time deciding on an astronomy investment.
----------------------------------------------------
Your make an assertion that I just pick a mount in seconds and then buy it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
----------------------------------------------------
Whoa there, Phil!
With all due respect, you did not quote my comment accurately, and that is NOT what I wrote. Please re-read the sentence that you excerpted only a part of. Here it is, with some emphasis added for the key part you omitted:
Unlike Phil, I'd rather take my time deciding
on an astronomy investment, AND THEN
ENJOY THOSE CHOICES FOR DECADES.
Normally, I would let this kind of thing slide, but you actually edited my statement, by removing its key phrase and adding a period where there had been a comma, so the premature end of that sentence (and the attendant change in its meaning) was your idea, not mine.
What I stated is in fact true: you're the one who wrote "As for mount life expectancy, I view that as about 3 - 5 years". That is what I clearly referred to in my (complete) sentence. The fact that you omitted the part of the sentence that referred to your amazing rate of mount replacement, and then revised the punctuation accordingly to fit your modification, is a simple case of misquoting in my book, and I would appreciate it if you would not misquote me or others...
And especially when such misquoting changes the meaning, as it did here.
Context is everything in communication, and especially in electronic correspondence where we lack other cues as to intent. Please act accordingly.
(and then send me that CGE Pro when you get your next mount!)
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7971
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
Well if I needed any prodding that does it, it's the G11 for me. Thanks to all who contributed.
-drl
Be it resolved:
- that the OP says his question has been resolved
- that the posts subsequent to the post have not added much to the OP's intent (sorry)
It's probably time to lock this thread and call it a night.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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