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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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faltered
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/01/05

anyone think hypertune is overrated?
      #4086807 - 10/01/10 10:24 PM

I am really considering sending in both my CGE and newly acquired CGEM for hypertuning.

Seems like everyone is super satisfied with the results, but im curious if anyone has another side of the opinion.

I was looking at the DIY kit, but I cant say I am the most "dig in there and try it" type. Could I be biting off more than I can chew by thinking I could DIY?

Having had a CGE for a while, and I have LOVED this mount, I just took possession of a CGEM, and it sure is louder than my CGE. It just doesnt sound as smooth when slewing at a high rate.

Any thoughts to share?


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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: faltered]
      #4086966 - 10/02/10 12:19 AM

Hyper-tuning is something everyone evaluates at one time or another, especially if you have an Atlas / CGEM / CG5 class mount. These mounts simply do not have the best quality grease, bearings, etc when they leave the factory. Can't expect them to, given their low cost and mass production. Reworking them provides a better performing product. It's that simple. If you're happy with your mount's performance, then I don't see the need. However, if you have poor balance or tracking performance, then in most cases hyper-tuning restores its performance and you may find the mount actually performs better than when purchased new. The cost of shipping it off for the service is not insignificant and if you feel you can do the work yourself, you'll save some time and money. So far, all reports I've read about Deep Space Products hyper-tuned CGEMs has been positive.

The CGEM noise can be reduced somewhat by changing the default slew / goto rate in the HC. Hyper-tuning won't help there much since the noise is really due to the type of motors used and the physical aspects of the housing. At least in my case, I didn't hear a noticeable difference in the noise level. Compared to my CG5, my CGEM is probably 1/2 as noisy now. And that's saying something....

To answer your post's topic question: No, In my case it's not overrated. Ed took a sticky, poorly performing mount and returned a mount that now balances very easily in both axis and performs very well.


Edited by BlueGrass (10/02/10 12:39 AM)


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #4087154 - 10/02/10 04:37 AM

Well said George. I was ready to abandon my cgem until I ran into Ed Thomas by sheer coincidence. I was starting to think I was a real moron who just couldn't properly set up a GEM. Hypertune has stopped my spending most of my dark time in frustration trying to figure out why I couldn't get the mount to properly track. Maybe my mount was just a lemon, but off all the money I've spent on this expensive hobby, the $325 was best investment yet.

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Adam E
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/29/09

Loc: Edgewood, NM
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #4087178 - 10/02/10 05:25 AM

With the problems my CGEM was having prior to Hypertuning, I was seriously considering three options: send off the mount for Hypertuning, send off the mount to Celestron, or just have a fire sale and advertize the mount with full disclosure of it's problems for something like $500 and call it a wash.

With the way my mount has behaved since Hypertuning, my thoughts are back to looking to upgrade the CGEM a couple or few years down the road. As long as the mount's performance holds up over time, I'll be happy with it for a good while.


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j.w.white
sage


Reged: 07/18/09

Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: faltered]
      #4087292 - 10/02/10 08:42 AM

I should be receiving my DIY Hypertune kit within the next several days, so I can let you know how relatively difficult the entire process is. I just had the CGEM returned from Celestron for RA/Dec sticking issues and, while the RA movement does seem a lot better, Dec is almost as bad (if not a tad worse) than when I sent it in. The reason I went with the DIY kit instead of sending it for the Hypertune (besides the big cost savings!) is that I'd really like to know what's going on inside, and be able to do periodic maintenance on it. It seems like a terrific mount and I anticipate that I'll enjoy using it over many years.

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John Carruthers
Skiprat
*****

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: j.w.white]
      #4087315 - 10/02/10 09:09 AM

If you have the necessary tools and parts to hand a mount can be stripped and sorted in a morning, if all goes well. Loads of guides and walk throughs around.
It's worth spending time drilling/tapping extra grubs on the spur gears and driving both axes for several complete revolutions before the 'final final' worm adjustment.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #4087837 - 10/02/10 02:28 PM

For those people comfortable with tearing their mounts apart (this is usually someone who has a garage full of tools to start with), I think that doing it yourself (with or without a kit) is a good idea since it gives you a better feel for just how the mount works and what can and cannot be done to improve its operation. However, if you are not comfortable with doing it yourself or you don't have the time, then my recommendation is to send it in to be HyperTuned. In general, tinkering is OK with a CG-5 or LXD75, but things get serious with a $1400 (or more) mount and while getting it apart may (or may not) be relatively easy, putting it back together and getting it adjusted right can be challenging. I do receive mounts that people haved tried to tune themselves but have ended up having to send it to me. Sometimes it is not big deal, other times serious damage has been done. Some mounts are easy to tune up while others are just a bear for one reason or another, even for me. There is a lot of variation in the mass-produced mounts so it is difficult to predict how a particular mount will be. For example, many of the CGEMs that I have worked on lately have been much easier to disassemble than the average Atlas mount, however, they have been all over the map in regards to putting them back together and getting them adjusted, whereas the Atlas mounts have been more consistent in the effort necessary to put them back together and adjust them.

If a mount is performing well and doing everything its owner needs it to do then there may be little or no need to HyperTune it. However, when a mount is not performing up to reasonable expectations, particularly in regards to balancing, backlash and tracking, then HyperTuning can often be very helpful.

The mid-level mounts like the Atlas and CGEM are some of the best mounts to HyperTune because they are much more capable than their smaller siblings and when well tuned they are very capable mounts. HyperTuning is also cost effective with these mounts when compared to the next step up in mounts which cost three times as much (and may still be mass-produced in China). More expensive mounts that are not mass-produced in China benefit less from HyperTuning because they are generally manufactured to tighter tollerances in the first place. However, even those mounts benefit from occasional tear-downs and maintenance.

Ed Thomas


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BobH
sage
*****

Reged: 01/03/08

Loc: Right Coast
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: faltered]
      #4088273 - 10/02/10 05:50 PM

My frustration with the CGEM as well as the ETX is why do we need a hypertune/supercharge in the first place?

Given the economy of scale, how much more could it possibly add to the basic price to just build a quality mount in the first place?

I'd like to see a ground swell of astronomers demand better quality scopes and mounts and, especially, truth in advertising.

Fat chance.

Oh, add the MiniTower to that as well.

Bob

Edited by BobH (10/02/10 05:54 PM)


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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: BobH]
      #4088384 - 10/02/10 06:57 PM

IMHO, it's not the quality of the components per se, it's the quality of the assembly and final QA pass / fail.

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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #4088601 - 10/02/10 08:58 PM

If you made 53 cents an hour, how much would you care? Welcome to the USA, currently being leased by China! The demand isn't there for telescopes right now, too many laid off workers can't afford them since their job was sent to Asia in the name of greater profits. I went to look at Meade APO's who the salesrep assured me was better than celestron since it wasn't owned by a chinese company. I looked at the scope that was clearly marked "made in China". The $1499 price tag would make me think it was quality American made. Wonder where the $1200 went after wages and materials?

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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #4088647 - 10/02/10 09:15 PM

Quote:

If you made 53 cents an hour, how much would you care? Welcome to the USA, currently being leased by China! The demand isn't there for telescopes right now, too many laid off workers can't afford them since their job was sent to Asia in the name of greater profits. I went to look at Meade APO's who the salesrep assured me was better than celestron since it wasn't owned by a chinese company. I looked at the scope that was clearly marked "made in China". The $1499 price tag would make me think it was quality American made. Wonder where the $1200 went after wages and materials?




It went into Meade's pocket where it was spent on advertising, a very little bit of R&D, and retained profits.

/Ira


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
*****

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: j.w.white]
      #4089132 - 10/03/10 05:43 AM

Some thoughts on mount fiddling....

bear in mind that an old well used worm is probably better run in and performs better than a brand new shiny one.
High prcision worms and worm bearings are well worth the money on the low to mid priced mounts. (eq5, heq5, eq6 + clones etc).
Lapping in a new worm is time consuming but worth the effort of tearing down twice to clean the lapping oil out.

Very fine ceramic hybrid bearings can be fitted to the shafts but the performance improvement is not as obvious. OK if the existing bearings are faulty but not top of my list. Teflon washers and spacers in place of the stock nylon are a no brainer.

Worm end float control is woefully lacking on most mounts, (yes eq's I'm looking at you :-). Thrust washers or a pin bearing on at least one end of the worm should be fitted. This could be as simple as a grub screw ground to a point and tapped into the worm end covers.(think along the lines of a plain lathe centre).
A single ball bearing between the worm shaft and the pin might be another idea (as found in some Fullerscope mounts)the tiny ruby and saphire ball lenses from Edmund's would pimp it up a bit? "jewelled movement" ? :-)

Spur gears of better quality with a constant velocity profile may stop some PE components, as will extra grubs on more shaft flats, these allow the gears to be adjusted for concentricity.


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bardo
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/13/09

Loc: US
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #4089143 - 10/03/10 05:56 AM

Quote:

Wonder where the $1200 went after wages and materials?





but, but, but...its a niche market. they have to make their initail investments back.

/sarcasm


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DanB
No Capos Allowed


Reged: 12/05/07

Loc: Central Oregon High Desert
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: bardo]
      #4090247 - 10/03/10 05:42 PM

my unguided shots before hypertuning my eq6 were horrid, even at 30 seconds only every 3rd frame was keepable. I had intermittent jumping around of my star and trails. The slack in both axis' was probably 1/16th inch or more and the end play plus grease used were sub par for astrophotography. I used my mount for 2 years before deciding on the Hypertune from Deep Sky Products. I cant prove to you here my improvements but tracking is now smooth, every frame (for the most part) is a keeper, the slack in both axis' is gone and the grease replaced with a high quality grease. Also, the slight broken glass or grinding noises which I had on slew are now entirely gone... My mount sounds like a new 747 winding up its engines when it slews.
IOW, I could not be happier with the results, not to mention the fact that I was able to pull this off myself in a small room with few tools. My only purchases as I remember were the Hypertune kit, the high end grease (my brother runs a bicycle shop here, he gets the really good stuff) and a set of calipers for fine measuring.

My only gripe so far... That I did not use loctite on a couple of things and those nylon spacers or bearings... I wish there were something which could not compress or deteriorate because that changes the gap over time. I would love to hear of any other solution, maybe ceramic or similar? Anyway, no hardcore complaints.
GL with your decision. Regards, Dan


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DanB
No Capos Allowed


Reged: 12/05/07

Loc: Central Oregon High Desert
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4091144 - 10/04/10 04:06 AM

Quote:

For those people comfortable with tearing their mounts apart (this is usually someone who has a garage full of tools to start with), I think that doing it yourself (with or without a kit) is a good idea since it gives you a better feel for just how the mount works and what can and cannot be done to improve its operation. However, if you are not comfortable with doing it yourself or you don't have the time, then my recommendation is to send it in to be HyperTuned. In general, tinkering is OK with a CG-5 or LXD75, but things get serious with a $1400 (or more) mount and while getting it apart may (or may not) be relatively easy, putting it back together and getting it adjusted right can be challenging. I do receive mounts that people haved tried to tune themselves but have ended up having to send it to me. Sometimes it is not big deal, other times serious damage has been done. Some mounts are easy to tune up while others are just a bear for one reason or another, even for me. There is a lot of variation in the mass-produced mounts so it is difficult to predict how a particular mount will be. For example, many of the CGEMs that I have worked on lately have been much easier to disassemble than the average Atlas mount, however, they have been all over the map in regards to putting them back together and getting them adjusted, whereas the Atlas mounts have been more consistent in the effort necessary to put them back together and adjust them.

If a mount is performing well and doing everything its owner needs it to do then there may be little or no need to HyperTune it. However, when a mount is not performing up to reasonable expectations, particularly in regards to balancing, backlash and tracking, then HyperTuning can often be very helpful.

The mid-level mounts like the Atlas and CGEM are some of the best mounts to HyperTune because they are much more capable than their smaller siblings and when well tuned they are very capable mounts. HyperTuning is also cost effective with these mounts when compared to the next step up in mounts which cost three times as much (and may still be mass-produced in China). More expensive mounts that are not mass-produced in China benefit less from HyperTuning because they are generally manufactured to tighter tollerances in the first place. However, even those mounts benefit from occasional tear-downs and maintenance.

Ed Thomas



Oh hey Ed I didnt see you there the first post The DVD and the kit were great but I already said that. Did you see my remark about the nylon washers and is there anything else we could use besides that and still get a good spacing?

Your nylon washers were obviously better. My stock eq6 washers were only 2 years old and were falling out in my hand when I took the mount apart last winter.

Thanks for any advice. Regards, Dan


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fetoma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/26/06

Loc: Southern New Jersey
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: DanB]
      #4091433 - 10/04/10 09:36 AM Attachment (71 downloads)

I'm probably going back to an Atlas myself. I had one, hypertuned it, then sold it for a CGE. Since I moved, I now need something portable, and the Atlas is fine for me to cart around.

I would like to somehow integrate thrust bearings (pictured below) into the mount and eliminate the nylon washers all together. I did this with an LXD55 to a certain extent. When I pick up my next Atlas and tear it down, I'll see if this is feasible with a bit of machining.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: DanB]
      #4091449 - 10/04/10 09:47 AM

The spacers that I produce and sell are actually Teflon. The axes in the mount should not be tighted so much that these spacers get significantly deformed but they are soft. Actually, if the axes are that tight they wouldn't work anyways. I have had discussions about substitutes (like specially coated brass) but the costs (materials and equipment like a laser cutter) start to get prohibitive.

Ed Thomas


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Bart
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/28/06

Loc: Somewhere near Charlottesville...
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #4091454 - 10/04/10 09:50 AM

Hey BlueGrass,

Quote:

The CGEM noise can be reduced somewhat by changing the default slew / goto rate in the HC.





"Changing the default slew" to what, faster, slower? What percentage?

Thanks


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: fetoma]
      #4091459 - 10/04/10 09:52 AM

This might be possible like you did on the LXD55 but it will be even more difficult. The spacers only account for between .020" and .080" on each axis. There is little space for machining the mount components and the ring gears house two of the axis ball bearings so you would have to shorten the ring gear and move one of the ball bearings further in. In addition, there is only about 2-3mm available at the end of the ring gear before you get into the axis lock groove.

Ed Thomas


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faltered
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/01/05

Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4091461 - 10/04/10 09:53 AM

You know, I think I am convinced. Sounds like most who get this service are really happy they did it. Ill start with my CGEM. Thanks everyone for this - now I just need to find a darn tripod for my CGEM.

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Bart
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/28/06

Loc: Somewhere near Charlottesville...
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: faltered]
      #4091468 - 10/04/10 09:57 AM

If one has thrown away the shipping box for the CGEM, how should one go about packing it for shipping?

Thanks


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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Bart]
      #4091508 - 10/04/10 10:21 AM

Bart,

I've reduced both my RA and DEC rates to 5. It takes a little more time for the mount to complete a goto, but it is quieter. I've not had any problems using these reduced rates so far. Good luck.


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Bart
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/28/06

Loc: Somewhere near Charlottesville...
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #4091569 - 10/04/10 10:38 AM

Thanks.

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Bart]
      #4091617 - 10/04/10 10:50 AM

The simplest way is to find a good sturdy box (double thickness if possible) that is a good bit larger than the mount (20x20x12 is good). Wrap the mount head in at least a couple of layers of large bubble wrap and wrap the hand controller in bubble wrap as well. Cushion everything as well as possible using peanuts or other packing material in the box. You want the mount to move around as little as possible.

The only way I would allow a pack-and-ship place to do it is if they are going to use the one-shot foam packs that expand to conform to the item being shipped. Otherwise they will just drop it in a box of peanuts which is insufficient.

If you want to get hard core, then what I do sometimes is get a good box and line it with styrofoam that you can get in sheets from Home Depot. Doing it this way, you can make a custom-formed box for the mount.

Finally, if you have a Pelican case (or similar) that you store the mount in, it can be shipped in that case. However, shipping may cost a little more this way.

Ed Thomas


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MrJones
Pooh-Bah
****

Reged: 09/15/10

Loc: Indiana
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: faltered]
      #4091701 - 10/04/10 11:28 AM

Quote:

Could I be biting off more than I can chew by thinking I could DIY?




Sounds like you made your decision to hypertune and I don't know about the CGEM but here's my 2c.

I got a LXD75 a week ago and was immediately frustrated with its performance, just for visual. I'm fairly mechanically inclined so with the help of the internet guides went for it. After 4 days of working on it for a few hours a day then taking it out at night to play with I have it set up ok with what I think is a balance of minimal lash, minimal play and minimal drag. It's definitely not perfect but it would take full disassembly and a lot more work to make any better. I did replace a few screws.

The trickiest part of the operation other than just figuring out how it all worked was that a lot of the performance gain came down to fiddling with torques on screws. In the end I'm glad I did it myself because I'm kind of expecting that I'm going to have to periodically keep tweaking things to keep it working well and I know what to do now. Also someday I'll probably have another mount and it seems I can expect I'll have to do the same again with it.

Good luck either way,

Doug

And this topic clearly requires the involvement of graemlins



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DanB
No Capos Allowed


Reged: 12/05/07

Loc: Central Oregon High Desert
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4091899 - 10/04/10 12:39 PM

Thanks Ed, I thought it might be something like this and you've got the best possible pieces/ parts in the kit already.
Apologies for calling the washers 'nylon', I knew they were Teflon and just made a tired mistake.
They really do work fine, its only my imagination which has them compressing or getting scraped up and needing replacememt down the road. On my EQ6 the surface which the bearings ride on is rough and pitted. Not super bad but the casting has bubbles in it and some of the holes are exposed with rough edges not suitable for any bearing really. I used JB Weld on them like you might use bondo to smooth the surface, fill in the couple of pits and get any snags smoothed off and that worked ok. I cant help but think there is a better solution for washers with some creative thinking like on the above post mentions thrust bearings.
Still not complaining though Ed.. I'm super happy with the positive changes I've made with my mount and this Hypertune kit. The fine tuning/ adjustments to the slack in both axis' was priceless as were the new bearings and all of it... All slack is gone and I had a good noticable amount!

About the tripod.. I'm on a pier now days. Did you mix me up with someone asking about the tripod? Be sure to get back to that guy:-)
I should be able to post some images in the CCD forum really soon, perhaps by this weekend so keep eyes open for that. Thanks again, its a wonderful product!
Dan


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: DanB]
      #4092051 - 10/04/10 01:37 PM

You're right. I sent that PM to the wrong person. I thought it was a little strange that I was sending it to you in the first place.

The holes in the casting are definitely common. As long as the surface is smooth to the touch (i.e., no noticeable snags) I don't think they represent a problem. If there are snags though, then the surface definitely needs to be smoothed out and you are correct that something like a body filler would probably do a good job if the holes are really bad. I haven't run into any that bad yet and I would hope that those would not normally make it through QC in the first place.

Ed Thomas


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philming
member


Reged: 04/18/11

Loc: France
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: faltered]
      #4533375 - 04/21/11 03:05 AM

Hi there !
I just tweaked my CG5-GT as well, and noticed something.
Sorry I dont have the cash at the moment to get the proper hypertune kit yet, but here's my finding, and a few subsequent questions :
I strated remounting the DEC shaft and noticed the plastic washers wouldnt really fit where they should have for some reason. The one at the bottom of the teethed wheel was OK, but the one on top just would get squashed when I put the shaft back into its housing.
So I just removed the plastic washers alltogether, applying quiet some amount of grease instead. And guess what ? The shaft is turning WAY more smoothly than with the plastic washers...
So here's a question though : I have noticed that the little screw that allows to lock the numbered dial at the bottom of the dec axis, just where the counter-weight bar goes, if screwed in just a tad bit too much, would rub against the lower part of the dec shaft, so that after 1/2 turn of the axis, it would just stuck the mount. Unscrewing it a little solved the problem.
The funny thing is that i dont rememeber it was doing this before i took the mount appart. Not that i really paid attention to it beforehand, but i was just wondering if I had done anything wrong.
What other problem did I run into ? Puting de DEC part back together. Unless I put a LOT of lithium grease that i've been using for this, the teethed wheel and-or the 6006 type bearing wheel would get stuck into the housing. A real pain to unstuck. I'm not sure i didnt damade this sealed bearing in the process and was wondering if that could be purchased somewhere as well ? Any reference - site you could point me to ?

Best regards,


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jbattleson
Happily Retired
*****

Reged: 03/02/09

Loc: Nebraska
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4534313 - 04/21/11 01:07 PM

Quote:

I have had discussions about substitutes (like specially coated brass) but the costs (materials and equipment like a laser cutter) start to get prohibitive.

Ed Thomas




Ed,
Have you considered making a punch and die set to punch out brass shims from shim stock? I made one out of a piece of Lexan and aluminum for .002 to .010" and steel for .010 and up. Just a thought.
John


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: jbattleson]
      #4536298 - 04/22/11 11:00 AM

I've have looked into this in the past but my need to be able to cut custom sizes and shapes keep me with the blade cutting and Teflon. There really would be no added benefit to go with brass and the materials cost as well as the equipment costs (punch press) and the increased production time (punching one spacer at a time) just don't support it. I am also able to maximize the use of the Teflon by cutting different spacers and bearing within each other to reduce waste but makes for complicated dies (that's were laser cutting would be better). I have farmed some things like this out in the past but that is quite expensive.

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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4537741 - 04/22/11 10:06 PM

Ed,
I didn't consider different shapes. The dies for that would be expensive.
Another thought is water jet. In the past I bought a lot of custom hydraulic seals from a company called Seal Jet. Not even sure they are around now. They could cut most plastics.
John


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: jbattleson]
      #4538582 - 04/23/11 11:29 AM

I have finally gotten the drive completely adjusted on my CGEM, and I have to say, it seems to be incredibly smooth, now.

What it took was having power on and doing slews while adjusting the drive set screws (side with the drive bumps loosens, far side set screw on the round area tightens). What it really needed was to have the four cover bolts loosened to allow the drive to move. They are shipped gorilla tight (never get bolts this tight). With them gently snug, it was possible to have the drive backlash free, yet free spinning in about 5 minutes. Then tighten the bolts down in a diagonal pattern to keep it from moving. I spun itg through a few 360s to make sure everything was happy.

Do you really need to send it off and pay $325 for that?

-Rich


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: jbattleson]
      #4538625 - 04/23/11 11:47 AM

Quote:

Ed,
I didn't consider different shapes. The dies for that would be expensive.
Another thought is water jet. In the past I bought a lot of custom hydraulic seals from a company called Seal Jet. Not even sure they are around now. They could cut most plastics.
John




Water jet cutting is certainly another method to use for things like plastics and if I move up in equipment it is a likely method I would consider. That is one of the methods I looked at for cutting the foam for camera insulation but I went with a local company that did die cutting instead. A water jet cutter is a significant investment and, more important, I currently don't have the space for it. I like to be able to make things myself for cost reasons but particularly for turn around time reasons. If I need something for a customer that I don't have I can cut it now. It can take a fair amount of time to get things from another company. In addition, one-off parts, even when they only require a little bit of CADD programming can be very expensive. There are pluses and minuses to each method but as my business expands I'm sure that the equipment I use will expand as well. I already have a 3-car/no-car garage/shop that my wife loves (and that doesn't include all the stuff that has taken over the house).


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #4538634 - 04/23/11 11:53 AM

Quote:

I have finally gotten the drive completely adjusted on my CGEM, and I have to say, it seems to be incredibly smooth, now.

What it took was having power on and doing slews while adjusting the drive set screws (side with the drive bumps loosens, far side set screw on the round area tightens). What it really needed was to have the four cover bolts loosened to allow the drive to move. They are shipped gorilla tight (never get bolts this tight). With them gently snug, it was possible to have the drive backlash free, yet free spinning in about 5 minutes. Then tighten the bolts down in a diagonal pattern to keep it from moving. I spun itg through a few 360s to make sure everything was happy.

Do you really need to send it off and pay $325 for that?

-Rich




If that's all it entailed, I felt confident making the adjustment, and I didn't mind voiding the warranty by doing so, then I certainly wouldn't pay for it. I'm glad your mount required so little work. That's one less that I have to worry about.

For anyone that wants complete instructions on how to adjust the worm gear on the CGEM and Atlas/EQ6 mounts, I have posted them in a pdf file on the appropriate Yahoo groups. No charge.


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4538706 - 04/23/11 12:31 PM

There are a lot of us who don't have free time to play with mounts. Sending it off to get the job done right, by folks who know what they are doing is a good investment.
Phil


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #4538843 - 04/23/11 01:29 PM

Quote:

There are a lot of us who don't have free time to play with mounts. Sending it off to get the job done right, by folks who know what they are doing is a good investment.
Phil




That is great advice if you consider the expertise a guy like Ed has developed doing the different types of mounts he has hypertuned. If you are not comfortable the with type of work or do not have the time and or tools, the expense of shipping the mount off to an expert to do the work is a wise choice and will save you some angst! Well worth the extra $ IMHO.


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: nemo129]
      #4538976 - 04/23/11 02:46 PM

What I describe doesn't void the warranty. No parts are taken apart, no bearings unseated. All it is is a little bit of adjustment.

-Rich


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #4539023 - 04/23/11 03:14 PM

Quote:

What I describe doesn't void the warranty. No parts are taken apart, no bearings unseated. All it is is a little bit of adjustment.

-Rich




It does not void the warranty if you don't tell anyone about it. If you decide to make those adjustments, be sure to not tell them if you have to send the mount in later. I guaranty you that they will consider the warranty void. I think that is wrong since the mount is clearly meant to be adjusted in that fashion but that is their position. I'm sure that is because you can damage the motors (if nothing else) by doing it wrong.

For anyone considering making the adjustment, as soon as the gears bind, STOP SLEWING. It is possible to tear the teeth off of one of the gears in the motor gear box if you continue to slew the axis with the worm and ring gear bound.


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4539026 - 04/23/11 03:19 PM

Ed,
I had a garage like that for a long long time. You must have a very understanding wife.

Quote:


For anyone that wants complete instructions on how to adjust the worm gear on the CGEM and Atlas/EQ6 mounts, I have posted them in a pdf file on the appropriate Yahoo groups. No charge.




Have you written anything up on the CGE mount?
Just wondering how hard it would be to do myself.
John


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: jbattleson]
      #4539115 - 04/23/11 04:13 PM

Quote:

Ed,
I had a garage like that for a long long time. You must have a very understanding wife.

Have you written anything up on the CGE mount?
Just wondering how hard it would be to do myself.
John




When this became my full time employment (not by choice at the time but I'm glad for it since I like this a lot more than what I use to do), certain sacrafices had to be made. The garage is one of them. I'm just glad I have the space I have since this economy really doesn't support leasing or buying more. Now I have to get the air conditioner installed out their so I don't have to roast as much this summer as I did last summer.

The CGE is in many respects and easier mount to work on since it is a better design in most respects. The tough part is getting the worm gear alignment right since it does not have a good system for that. I have the filming done for a video but I haven't had the time to do the editing yet. Another thing on my long list of things to do. I'm also working on a cable upgrade for it with the prototypes being manufactured right now.


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jbattleson
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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4539158 - 04/23/11 04:43 PM

Ed,
I will keep an eye out for your video but am sure I won't be doing anything until next winter.


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4539251 - 04/23/11 05:31 PM

If you decide to laser cut teflon be careful, the fumes are toxic.

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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Mary B]
      #4539281 - 04/23/11 05:44 PM

Quote:

If you decide to laser cut teflon be careful, the fumes are toxic.




Yes. I think that the laser cutting would be more appropriate for brass. Water jet would be better for the Teflon and probably most plastics.


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Starhawk
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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4539365 - 04/23/11 06:30 PM

The fumes from Teflon include fluorine, so yes, toxic.

On the design of the CGEM, I'm not scan of how the two axes are in ine block. So there is no further breakdown for transport.

And I'm floored about the motor adjustment. Yeah, I suppose I'll need to be quiet on that score.

-Rich


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #4539818 - 04/23/11 10:22 PM

Many plastics cut well with a laser, Acrylic, ABS are 2 I can think of right away.

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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: nemo129]
      #4540140 - 04/24/11 01:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There are a lot of us who don't have free time to play with mounts. Sending it off to get the job done right, by folks who know what they are doing is a good investment.
Phil




That is great advice if you consider the expertise a guy like Ed has developed doing the different types of mounts he has hypertuned. If you are not comfortable the with type of work or do not have the time and or tools, the expense of shipping the mount off to an expert to do the work is a wise choice and will save you some angst! Well worth the extra $ IMHO.




I have heard of Ed for only a month or so, read extensively of him only for a week or so.... and have never ONCE heard a negative word said, not so much as a "I thought it would be better than this...."

That's why, after a 10 minute phone conversation with him on Friday in which he was most gracious, and most knowledgeable, I boxed up my CGEM and will ship it to him on Monday for a hypertune and RA gear upgrade. I've sunk many thousands into hardware and software (much of it frivolously or via ignorance), but of all $500+ purchases I've made in astronomy, this is one I have zero doubt is worth it.

Seldom do you find someone with that sort of reputation, willing to sell his long experience for so little. I'm mechanically inclined, but have few tools, and don't trust myself not to break things. Thus, I trust Ed implicitly to improve my mount, based on his reputation.

I will report back the good and bad in 3-4 weeks (depending on the weather), but I'd be flabbergasted if I had anything negative to say.

For "before" pics, see my post in "Beginning Astrophotography" under the thread "Is this gear binding or a PEC/PHD feud".

After pics will be posted as well.

Jester


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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: ADBjester]
      #4542247 - 04/24/11 11:54 PM

I've only communicated with Ed via e-mail but he seems like a genuine individual. I just ordered a Hypertune deluxe kit from him for my CGEM and he shipped it the same day (should be here tomorrow). The weather stinks so i'll have a project to do this week.

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jp071848
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Re: anyone think hypertune is overrated? new [Re: EFT]
      #4543023 - 04/25/11 12:08 PM

Quote:



The CGE is in many respects and easier mount to work on since it is a better design in most respects. The tough part is getting the worm gear alignment right since it does not have a good system for that. I have the filming done for a video but I haven't had the time to do the editing yet. Another thing on my long list of things to do. I'm also working on a cable upgrade for it with the prototypes being manufactured right now.




My experience bears out Ed's CGE comments exactly. I bought a late-model used CGE last year, trading in a CGE Pro. The CGE worked fine but felt rough and unhappy, though this is based solely on qualitative rather than quantitative criteria. Being an inveterate tinker and tool wonk, I dove right in and started a self-hypertune, using documents and videos available here and from the CGE Yahoo group. Ed's service appears to be fantastic, and had I been in the same country as Ed, I would have sent it to him rather than attempting it myself (... and Ed, I'll be buying that video when it's available). The shipping and trans-border hassles, however, made it not a viable solution for me.

In tearing down and re-building the mount, I discovered a number of nasty surprises courtesy of Celestron and their poor manufacturing and assembly, and I ended up with a much better feeling and sounding mount. Though I can't quantitatively prove it, I'm sure it performs better than before. I found that the CGE is very simple to work on, and it is hard to have anything go very wrong to the point where you'd need Ed's adult intervention. That being said, I had to disassemble the RA axis at least twice, and the DEC axis more times than I can remember, to really NAIL IT. To paraphrase Ed, it's easy to get it OK, very tough to get it very good. Now that I can dis- and re-assemble it in my sleep with my eyes closed, I am now able to dial it in very well, and am very happy with how it moves, sounds and performs. If I suffer any performance issues or failures in the future, I won't hesitate to strip it down to try and repair it myself

Jeff


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