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nemo129
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/03/10

Loc: WMass
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #4300533 - 01/08/11 01:36 PM

We may have to wait until March to hear any real news, as they say the proof is in the pudding. I wish C the best with this new mount and will be happy to report any news of its make up if I hear of it.

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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: rmollise]
      #4300578 - 01/08/11 02:02 PM

Quote:

I believe it will be very similar in performance to a C14 on a CGE or G11.



Not even remotely.


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Tiny
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/02/08

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Gord]
      #4300620 - 01/08/11 02:27 PM

Quote:

Garry, thanks for the live update and confirming some of what people are suspecting/noticing. Definitely was a surprise, but as some have said, I think it makes sense. Minimal effort in terms of development, re-using of existing parts, and they now have something to slot in between the CGEM and CGE-Pro. Nice to see.

Clear skies,




This doesnt count as a mid tier mount in my opinion. Not in price or design.

CGE Pro $5,000 90lb capacity
CGEM DX $2,000 50lb capacity
CGEM $1,300 40lb capacity

Still a huge gap there.


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Gord
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/06/04

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Tiny]
      #4300779 - 01/08/11 03:48 PM

I think there is room in there for another offering, but this is a step up from the CGEM.

I'm also not sure I agree with the capacity ratings. If anything, I think they are somewhat conservative, and perhaps being stated more from an imaging perspective. Although in that case, I would say they are a little high, but I'm sure it's somewhat workable.

Look at it this way. Vixen rates the Sphinx DX at 50lbs. I *know* this setup, especially in CGEM-DX guise, is much more capable than the Sphinx. And if you look at the AS-GT, they rate it at 35lbs. That's a 12 lbs mount. And I can say, that I've used the AS-GT at 35+ lbs for a long time, and as imprefect of a setup as it is, it still works. And that's with a 44" long OTA.

With a (relatively) short tube like the C14, the CGEM-DX will work quite well.

There are no fast and hard rules (except that you can never overmount...), but an old guideline I've heard kicked around before is that "don't put more on it, that it itself weighs". The CGEM head is supposed to be around 41 lbs. 40-50lbs (or even a bit more) will be fine on this mount.

By the same guideline they followed for the AS-GT, it should even be able to swing 120lbs!

Clear skies,


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Tiny
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/02/08

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Gord]
      #4300840 - 01/08/11 04:16 PM

Quote:

I think there is room in there for another offering, but this is a step up from the CGEM.

I'm also not sure I agree with the capacity ratings. If anything, I think they are somewhat conservative, and perhaps being stated more from an imaging perspective. Although in that case, I would say they are a little high, but I'm sure it's somewhat workable.

Look at it this way. Vixen rates the Sphinx DX at 50lbs. I *know* this setup, especially in CGEM-DX guise, is much more capable than the Sphinx. And if you look at the AS-GT, they rate it at 35lbs. That's a 12 lbs mount. And I can say, that I've used the AS-GT at 35+ lbs for a long time, and as imprefect of a setup as it is, it still works. And that's with a 44" long OTA.

With a (relatively) short tube like the C14, the CGEM-DX will work quite well.

There are no fast and hard rules (except that you can never overmount...), but an old guideline I've heard kicked around before is that "don't put more on it, that it itself weighs". The CGEM head is supposed to be around 41 lbs. 40-50lbs (or even a bit more) will be fine on this mount.

By the same guideline they followed for the AS-GT, it should even be able to swing 120lbs!

Clear skies,




not for nothing but the SXD [what you meant?] has a payload capacity rated for 15kg[33lb] not 22kg [50lb]. There appeared to have been something lost in translation when the Vixen US people wrote their version of specs so i'd lean toward Vixen Japan being the correct capacity. Plus like you i've seen the mount and i never once thought it was substantial enough to take a 50lb ota.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.vixen.co.jp/at/sxd.htm&ei=ddMoTc3cMYiq8AalhpH-AQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.vixen.co.jp/at/sxd.htm%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26prmd%3Divns


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Gord
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/06/04

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Tiny]
      #4300901 - 01/08/11 04:47 PM

Quote:

not for nothing but the SXD [what you meant?] has a payload capacity rated for 15kg[33lb] not 22kg [50lb].




Sorry, you are right, it is the SXD. I have "DX" on the brain!

I've heard that said before as well about the Vixen ratings. That's more in line with how I would see it relative to the CGEM/EQ6/Altas in the 40-50lbs+ range.

Clear skies,


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Jay Wise
sage


Reged: 11/21/08

Loc: Near Williamsburg VA
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: rmollise]
      #4301017 - 01/08/11 05:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Boy, I just can't see that mount handling a 50lb OTA very well. It looks like a C11 sitting on top of a CG-5. Scary.




Well, a CG5 - C11 is nothing to be afraid of. I've used a buddy's setup for years and it has never sent us screaming...and has acutually worked pretty well.

As for the C14 on an improved CGEM. No reason you need to be afeared. I believe it will be very similar in performance to a C14 on a CGE or G11. That is...you wouldn't want to try to do "20 hour total exposure time" imaging, but for us aging babyboomers like moi who are almost exclusively visual/short video exposure oriented, this could be a godsend.




Finally a sane voice among the naysayers! For those of us who are tormented by Gemini (I thought observing was supposed to be fun) a possible mount for my older but optically great C14. I only need it for visual and 1-2 minutes max for videocam. I can quit saving for the PRO. Hooray!

JayW


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Alph]
      #4301314 - 01/08/11 08:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I believe it will be very similar in performance to a C14 on a CGE or G11.



Not even remotely.




OK...can't help but ask...why? Have you used a C14 on either of these mounts? It is OK, but it is not exactly the Rock of Gibraltar.


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Learken
member


Reged: 03/17/05

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: drksky]
      #4301581 - 01/08/11 10:57 PM

Under the details tab for the mount on the Celestron web site, the marketing blurb reads as follows regarding the improved payload capacity.

"Power Management - Redesigned electronics deliver constant regulated power to the motors making them capable of driving the telescope even when not perfectly balanced. This allows the CGEM DX to have the payload capacity of that of much larger mounts without sacrificing smooth tracking motion and pointing accuracy across the entire sky."

They don't mention that in the marketing blurbs for the standard CGEM mount, so it appears that they have made some changes to the internal electronics package, as well a beefier tripod.


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: rmollise]
      #4301632 - 01/08/11 11:27 PM

Quote:

Have you used a C14 on either of these mounts?



Don't you dare to compare the stinking CGEM to my observatory class CGE Suddenly the CGEM is good enough for the C14. I am sure they will manage to dupe a lot of people. So far people were comparing the CGEM to the Atlas and the likes. However to compare it to the G11 is a big stretch. Slow down guys.


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mak7
sage
*****

Reged: 09/29/07

Loc: light polluted Phoenix AZ
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: rmollise]
      #4301657 - 01/08/11 11:40 PM

I have a CGEM and had my trials and tribulations with it. Had to send the first one back yada yada yada. I have since had the new replacement CGEM( thanks OPT) Hypertuned since it had already cost a lot for purchase price, shipping for warranty, time without and time down and the new one was better than the first but still hard to balance with axis stiction. I also added a TPI spreader bar and now think that I have a very good and substantial mid sized gem mount.The turning point was the Hypertune from Ed Thomas at DSProducts. Complete turnaround of a new mount. Wasn't real bad, but needed lots of help.
I am very happy at this point, more than I thought I would be, but pleased with my investment in the mount. 1.5 hour tracking and rock solid. The Hypertune made a world of difference in my ability to balance and guide.

My point in all of this is that all though Celestron has had trouble getting the CGEM up and running, I believe the CGEM is a capable mount as designed. Not as executed!!! I can now use the CGEM past the load limit I originally expected, about 50% of stated limit.

Load ratings differ, I expected to use it at one half of stated rating for AP. I am actually using it at 75 % of Celestrons load rating, and could go slightly more, but that has cost a lot of extra.. An AP or Tak mount would handle its rating without skipping a beat, or so I hear.

My point is that the new CGEM DX will probably be better than the standard CGEM. They have had time to fix simple things, put probably not QC. It will be another mass produced, mediocre offering !!!! I will hopefully have the ability to afford better when my current $ 2,100 CGEM needs to be replaced.

Hopefully your experiance will be different,

Brad


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Garry
member


Reged: 10/01/06

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Learken]
      #4301722 - 01/09/11 12:38 AM

Keen eye Learken.

In regards to my previous post:
Kevin Kawai tried to describe briefly the improvement of performance and used the word "chip" in relation to the
" Power Management - Redesigned electronics deliver constant regulated power to the motors making them capable of driving the telescope even when not perfectly balanced. This allows the CGEM DX to have the payload capacity of that of much larger mounts without sacrificing smooth tracking motion and pointing accuracy across the entire sky."

The mounts new larger locking clutch lever would allow for
easier and more secure locking of the clutch for larger payloads.

A larger diameter counterweight bar would handle more weight
better for larger payloads.

The larger beefier tripod would be better for larger payloads.

C has upgraded & strengthened the mount/tripod both physically and electronically. That's a plus.
So why shouldn't it have a higher payload rating?

If a C14 were to be mounted on the CGEM DX the net results
should be better than the CGEM I would think.

Now as far as the picture on C's site I'll have to tell ya
I was close enough to read the DX on the side of the mount
and I'm slightly nearsighted but to my recallition the pic
looks like what I saw at CES.


Garry


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alrosm
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/27/10

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Garry]
      #4301798 - 01/09/11 01:55 AM

When you got to move your C14 OTA outside, you just know you are not gonna try to put it on a 50 lbs capacity mount.
CGE capacity was 65 lbs...
G11 is 60 lbs...


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Gord
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/06/04

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: alrosm]
      #4302086 - 01/09/11 09:32 AM

I know the G11 is better than the CGEM (or EQ6/Atlas) as it's machined billet vs. cast. That being said, I'm wondering how much all the quoted numbers are just pulled out of the air.

For example, the G11 is called the G11 because it was originally designed to carry the C11, not the C14. I remember having a conversation with Susanne Kidner on this topic, and her discussions with Scott Losmandy about Celestron putting the C14 on the G11. She was skepitcal, and as it sounds so was Scott. But Celestron seemed to think it was good enough was my understanding of what was said, and so we got the C14 on G11. And now it seems generally accepted that the G11 is up to the task.

Is it really that different to think the CGEM can't be as well, especially with some improvements to address the weaknesses?

As I said before, I know billet is better than cast, but the CGEM is actually a heavier mount than the G11 (by 5 lbs).

Clear skies,


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Gord
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/06/04

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Garry]
      #4302092 - 01/09/11 09:43 AM

Quote:

The larger beefier tripod would be better for larger payloads.





Absolutely. If it's not on a solid base, the mount and telescope as a unit are going to flex at the tripod. I know because I've experienced it myself with the G11 and my C10N.

I had my G11 on a light duty pier for testing. It's the same pier for my EQ5. Interestingly, the G11 was really not much more stable in carrying the C10 than was the EQ5. The flex was all coming from the pier.

I've noticed that the standard 2" SS tripod is also kind of light for heavier loads, especially when extended. The heavier tripod will improve that and let the mount work up to it's potential.

As someone earlier pointed out, if you want to get a true sense of what a mount will do, put it on a heavy concrete pier with a solid coupling. Then what you are really seeing is the capabilities of the mount.

Clear skies,


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Alph]
      #4302132 - 01/09/11 10:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Have you used a C14 on either of these mounts?



Don't you dare to compare the stinking CGEM to my observatory class CGE Suddenly the CGEM is good enough for the C14. I am sure they will manage to dupe a lot of people. So far people were comparing the CGEM to the Atlas and the likes. However to compare it to the G11 is a big stretch. Slow down guys.




Nobody said the CGEM. We are talking about a significantly strengthened mount. Only real world use will show whether it is up to the task or not. I am glad you like your mount, I do too in many ways, but I've used one with a C14 out at a breezy dark site. Dern near got me seasick.

Bottom line? If you want stability for a C14, you need to bump it up to the next tier, to at least a Losmandy Titan. But...that said...I believe the new CGEM DX will do about as an _acceptable_ job as the CGE and the G11.

Edited by rmollise (01/09/11 02:00 PM)


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ccreigh
newbie


Reged: 11/11/09

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: fetoma]
      #4302471 - 01/09/11 01:06 PM

Here is an idea. I have the CGEM 11 HD with the "old" tripod and am looking to beef it up as well. The counterweight bar is definitly not long enough but C is sending me another gratis. I think this website may be the answer on the tripod fix....

http://www.tpiastro.com/index.htm


Chuck in Las Vegas
CGEM 11 HD
Meade ETX 90
Not enough Teleview lens!


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Garry
member


Reged: 10/01/06

Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Jim7728]
      #4305129 - 01/10/11 03:45 PM

Jim.
Here are the "Details" & "Specs" from C's site:
Power Management

CGEM CGEM DX CGE PRO

No Yes Yes

Power Requirement

12VDC 3.2A 12VDC 3.5A 12VDC 3.5A

Counterweight

17 lbs 22lbs 22lbs
(Same Accessories Item # 94187)

Tripod Leg/Wt.

2”SS / 17lbs 2.75”SS / 45lbs* 2.75”SS / 52lbs**
(* “CGE PRO style” ) (**Wt. includes Electronic Pier)
Mount Wt.

41 lbs 41 lbs 75 lbs

Payload Capacity

40 lbs 50 lbs 90 lbs


Check out the Flickr link for photos : CES Celestron Booth

There are about a hundred photos to go through but there
are a few decent ones of the CGEM DX.

Garry


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Jim7728
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/10/05

Loc: Stoop Landing Observatory, NYC
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Garry]
      #4305382 - 01/10/11 05:10 PM

Thanks for the link,Garry.

Good shot here.

DSCO4255/Flickr


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Jay Wise
sage


Reged: 11/21/08

Loc: Near Williamsburg VA
Re: New Celestron CGEM DX- 50lb capacity! new [Re: Garry]
      #4305391 - 01/10/11 05:14 PM

Gary,
Thanks for the tour and all the great photos!
The CGEM DX is clearly beefed up from my CGEM and I am going to have to try it. I only need it to carry my older C14 for visual and videocam. I house it in an Exploradome so wind and setup and breakdown are not an issue. Is there a firm price out on it yet? If it works as well as my CGEM I will not feel the slightest bit "duped".

JayW


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