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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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darkforce
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/05/07

Re: 10Micron new [Re: HowardK]
      #4399547 - 02/20/11 03:03 PM

Howard,

do what you want to do. It's the truth & sometimes it's hard to believe.
The best way to find it out is, buy a 10Micron and test it by yourself.

CS

Immo


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: 10Micron new [Re: darkforce]
      #4399613 - 02/20/11 03:32 PM

Quote:

From my point of view, the reason is a buggy software to translate the guider signals into servo signals. That is not realy trivial job.



This sounds very odd. Even fairly cheap mounts can handle guider commands correctly. Are you telling us that the 10Micron mount can’t track at a specified or desired rate? Is guiding done via the ST4 port or some other port?


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Andrea.Moroni
journeyman


Reged: 09/18/09

Loc: Milan - Italy
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Alph]
      #4399647 - 02/20/11 03:46 PM

Hi Emanuele,
looks like this german boy has something personal against 10micron.
Maybe he is right but the style and the fury are very suspicious to me.


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Emanuele
Lord of the Ring
*****

Reged: 11/19/03

Loc: Brescia-Italy, and Iowa-US
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Andrea.Moroni]
      #4399676 - 02/20/11 04:00 PM

I don't think there's anything to add to this thread, beside just going to Stern-fan.de website and look at the pictures Rolf is taking with a Planewave 12.5". and that is just one example.
Another example is Danilo Pivato pictures in the CCD forums.
I am guiding at 0.25X with my Lodestar through the ST4 port and usually take 20min subs at 1000mm of focal length without problems.
Aggressiveness is set to 1 in both X and Y axis.

Anyway, I am not going say anything more about this. Seems not worth it at this point.


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HowardK
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Re: 10Micron new [Re: Emanuele]
      #4399719 - 02/20/11 04:29 PM

It might not be "worth it" to you Emanuele but I am about to make a bank transfer for 14000 euros for this mount...which I am now being told cannot track with a guider...and I would imagine there are others equally alarmed by what Immo has to report..............the people in Italy will have to report on this..........this is as serious as it gets for a high end mount to be completely useless at guiding is a distinct breach of every retail sales law I know of...a product has to be fit for purpose..I would like to hear from others who cannot guide with their GM2000...........a report can then be made and class actions against the company can be initiated if this is indeed the case.............I will not let 10 Micron make and sell a mount that cannot guide

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Emanuele
Lord of the Ring
*****

Reged: 11/19/03

Loc: Brescia-Italy, and Iowa-US
Re: 10Micron new [Re: HowardK]
      #4399783 - 02/20/11 05:04 PM

Howard, please do get in contact with other 10Micron users and with the company itself as well.

I am not affiliated with 10Micron. just a very happy user of their superb mounts.


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dietmar
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/21/05

Loc: linz, austria europe
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Emanuele]
      #4400817 - 02/21/11 02:14 AM

hi guys,

I am afraid I will have to chime in with Immo.
you will not notice the guiding issue at an image-scale larger than 2" per pixel. in that cases, you might have nice results of course.
but anything that goes below that number (oversampling, like in longer focal length) you will certainly have the problem, like so many others! and it is a repeatable error.
nothing to do with mechanics, wich is veray good in 10 micron. it is a problem of the module "electronics-software".
high resolution imaging with 10 micron is simply not possible, in case you have to guide in dec-axis.
RA is reasonable and fairly ok.

please consider your purchase very carefully and gather this input.
unfortunately ba far not all users who have seen the same problems (and we are NOT talking about beta-testers but customers and users like we were) would ever want to report over this issues in public.

until 10 micron does not have a totally new setup for their dec-drive system, the mount does not qualify for high plate scale imaging (resolution below 2" per pixel) that is a mathematical evidenced based fact.

cheers


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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

Loc: Belgium
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Emanuele]
      #4400828 - 02/21/11 02:21 AM

It is also difficult for me to believe that a very expensive mount would have a problem!
But you never know!!!

In any case I was planning to buy a GM 2000, but now after reading this.....?

Is 10MICRON aware of these problems?

Are there other persons who have NO problem with this mount?

After all it is a seriously investment.

Please, give us more information!


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Emanuele
Lord of the Ring
*****

Reged: 11/19/03

Loc: Brescia-Italy, and Iowa-US
Re: 10Micron new [Re: MAURITS]
      #4400870 - 02/21/11 03:23 AM

Dietmar,

If what you are saying is true, how do I image, then, at 1.14"/pixel?
How do people using Planewaves and Officina Stellare RC image?
If there ever was a problem in the Beta Test software it has certainly been corrected because I, like many other users, dont have it.


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HowardK
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Re: 10Micron new [Re: Emanuele]
      #4401503 - 02/21/11 12:39 PM

the company in Italy will be fully informed and I will keep all posted here on what they have to say....I for one have cxl'd my order and will look at an american high end mount that actually functions

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Emanuele
Lord of the Ring
*****

Reged: 11/19/03

Loc: Brescia-Italy, and Iowa-US
Re: 10Micron new [Re: HowardK]
      #4401546 - 02/21/11 01:00 PM

The company has already been fully informed of the accusations Howard

Hope you'll be happy with the new mount and lots of clear nights to you.
E.


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geissi
member


Reged: 12/28/06

Loc: Germany
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Emanuele]
      #4401618 - 02/21/11 01:32 PM

Hello Maurits,
Hello HowardK

>Are there other persons who have NO problem with this mount?

Yes, there are! Me and many other satisfied 10micron users!

Do you detect any severe guiding problems in the following raw-images?
Autoguiding was done with an off-axis guider and a SX lodestar cam. Location was my city-balcony, surrounded by many other houses.
Mount was a 10micron GM2000.



20 min H-alpha-frame with TEC140 (980mm focal length)
FLI ML 16803-65 cam with 9µm Pixels




full res


20 min luminance-frame with Planewave 12.5" CDK (2541mm focal length)
FLI ML 16803-65 cam with 9µm Pixels




full res

Please check out my gallery at www.stern-fan.de for further pics.



Review 10micron GM2000 in German:
http://www.stern-fan.de/Seiten/montierung-gm2000.htm

Review 10micron GM2000 in English:
http://www.stern-fan.de/Seiten/montierung-gm2000_eng.htm



In my optinion, 10micron manufactures very fine mounts with most advanced firmware and
very helpful features. The developers at 10micron improve the internal firmware
to the customer’s needs.
Of course, a GM2000 can even handle big focal length scopes properly.
I can recommend this mount - no matter what other's may say.
I use my 10micron since several years without any problems.

There are many happy 10micron users around, please read their
reports on www.10micron.de (everybody can translate the German
language with Google), even professional observatories are working
successfully with these mounts in the conventional QCI version
But the GM 1000 HPS is even more advanced because it has high
resolution encoders in both axis and corrects every little
tracking problem - if it´s from wind or mechanically - immediately.



Regards
Rolf Geissinger

Edited by geissi (02/21/11 02:29 PM)


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wz2
Most Boring Astronomer...


Reged: 07/30/10

Re: 10Micron new [Re: geissi]
      #4401700 - 02/21/11 02:15 PM

I e-mailed 10-Micron and suggested they join this discussion. Would like to know their position on this.

Chris


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HowardK
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Re: 10Micron new [Re: wz2]
      #4401723 - 02/21/11 02:25 PM

chris

i will also be contacting the company directly and drawing their attention here............there is completely conflicting information presented here about the most critical part of this mount.........being able to guide


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darkforce
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/05/07

Re: 10Micron new [Re: HowardK]
      #4401817 - 02/21/11 03:18 PM

Hello,

hope we can talk factually without polemics and without trading insults.
So what I can see, there are several experiences about this Mounts. I can accept this and I think, we should demonstrate respect for each other.

So here are two examples from guiding error-graphs which we have done with Maxim DL ca. one year ago.
Scope was a 9" Folded TMB APO with round about 2000mm of focal
length. Camera was a SBIG STL 11k. So the image scale is something like
0,90arcsec/pixel. The Guiding was done via guider Relays, with self guiding (SBIG) plugged in the ST4 port from the GM4000. We have also tried software guiding (pulse) with AP - Protocol. Without success. Also various programs like CCD-Soft.

The Mount was a GM4000 fitted on a concrete pier at our Remote Observatory in the south of france. The problems, we had with guiding in the DEC-Axis is, as I mentioned, ca. 1 year ago. I do not know, cause we sold both mounts (GM2000 & 4000) if they have a solution for this problem right now, but that was our experiences with both mounts - I'm sorry.

Here are the two examples from Guiding-Error Graphs (Blue=DEC):




So you can see, in DEC the graph shows something like a saw tooth design. Both Mounts GM2000 & GM4000 showed the same type of saw tooth error. As I mentioned, we tried many things (rd. about 6 month) to get this out. We is Dietmar Hager, Martin Winder and myself.

And here is the PE Curve from the same Mount. As you can see, it's very good and smooth (Peak to Peak 2,65"):

PE-Curce GM4000

So it's no question from the PE or the mechanics. From our experiences it was a problem with electronics, software .... especially in DEC.

Hope this helps a little bit to show our point of view.

CS

Immo


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HowardK
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Re: 10Micron new [Re: darkforce]
      #4401838 - 02/21/11 03:32 PM

Thanks for this Immo

We will have to see what 10 Micron themselves have to say.......i would not be happy if i had ordered a mount from them


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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

Loc: Belgium
Re: 10Micron new [Re: HowardK]
      #4402986 - 02/22/11 01:11 AM

Thanks for all the answers and let's hope these arguments end up good!

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Dennis Sakva
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/19/04

Loc: Kiev, Ukraine
Re: 10Micron new [Re: MAURITS]
      #4403600 - 02/22/11 11:33 AM

Sawtooth graphs like this can be due to a sticky axis combined with bad balance when worm rotation pulls heavier side of the telescope instead of pushing it. This way the strain accumulates in worm-wheel pair until the force breaks the friction and telescope makes a small jump which is seen on the graph.
If the guiding graph shows accumulation of the error followed by rapid correction overshoot there's high probablity that we are dealing with improperly loaded axis.


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HowardK
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Re: 10Micron new [Re: Dennis Sakva]
      #4405369 - 02/23/11 07:11 AM

Dennis

Please read what Immo has to report.....he states absolutely that the guiding problem with 10 micron's mounts are due to electronic or software problems and NOT MECHANICAL such as sticky axis or poor
balancing.....i have been calling the company but there is no one answering the phone.......my order is cancelled for the GM2000 as I will
wait for the new mount to come out....I would presume then that this
issue would have been corrected so that a guider can talk perfectly with
the mount.


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Emanuele
Lord of the Ring
*****

Reged: 11/19/03

Loc: Brescia-Italy, and Iowa-US
Re: 10Micron new [Re: HowardK]
      #4405599 - 02/23/11 09:40 AM

Howard, it's really interesting how you only give weight to what Immo says. Makes me think if you are the same person?
Immo and Dietmar shared an observatory together. The problem they were having might have been localized to their own setup (stability problems with a folded refractor?), as no one is having this problems now.

If you take a moment to read again what Immo wrote in his posts, you'll see that:
In his first post he said the mounts have big problems guiding.
Then he said that he was a beta tester for a new software.
Then he said the guiding problem is up to date.
Then in his last posts he said the he doesn't have the mount anymore since 1+ year ago, and he doesn't know if the problem is still there.

Which one is it of the 4 different answers?

I don't think it's really coherent to say that 10Micron mounts apparent guiding problems (which again might have been very well localized to their own setup) are up to date, when they don't even own a 10micron mount since 1+ year ago.

And why are you considering only Immo report and not mine, Rolf Geissinger, and the other reviews we have linked to?


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