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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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bardo
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/13/09

Loc: US
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: j.w.white]
      #4400943 - 02/21/11 06:12 AM

I only edited the comment because it was worded wrong to me. newbs dont know what is solid fact and what isnt exactly, i remember being there. most of the hypertune hysteria ive seen is mere testament and conjecture. and most that ive personally dealt with was neutral at best and often negative. (especially as a used selling point)

also i do not have an unmoveable opinion, its actually easily swayed by solid data and experience.


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
*****

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: bardo]
      #4400951 - 02/21/11 06:23 AM

we may be comparing apples and oranges a bit too. We need to define 'hypertune' to me it means what in the old car tuning days was called 'blueprinting'. Many mounts have their own idiosyncrasies, some are made well but poorly assembled, some need more than a strip,clean, relube and adjust.
Replacing bearings and modifying parts to me counts as a hypertune.
Without replacing worms and bearings the PE is not likely to decrease BUT it may be smoother.


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mak7
sage
*****

Reged: 09/29/07

Loc: light polluted Phoenix AZ
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #4401562 - 02/21/11 01:07 PM

John,
You make a very good point that we have no definition between a Hypertune and some one just attempting a hotrod of their mount.

The Hypertune that my mount received from Deep Space Products polished internal surfaces, replaced cheap plastic bearings with teflon bearings, replaced original ball bearings with ceramic ball bearings, cleaned all surfaces and removed sticky grease and replaced it.

I can only wonder what some tinkerers have done to their mounts and no wonder people are leary of the thought of buying a home done fixer upper.

A Hypertune done at Deep Space Products is a plus, but it would be hard to tell what you would get from an authorised Hypertune kit done by an inexperianced mount owner trying to follow the directions. Even worse somebody that tears into their mount thinking they can fix it.

A Hypertune is not needed for every mount. I think once you know yours has problems and get no real recourse from the factory, the Hypertune is the next viable alternative and can be a great assistance to many of us.

My opinion is that my CGEM was turned around from unable to track and guide to a very respectable mass produced, mediocre mount. I can actually guide it now, and hope to start using it for photography once all things are in place, mostly only my own personal knowledge is lacking now.
Brad


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bookworm14
sage


Reged: 03/22/08

Loc: Georgia
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: mak7]
      #4401598 - 02/21/11 01:21 PM

Does "hypertune" also apply to optical tubes, or is there a different word for maximizing the performance of the OT beyond mere collimation?
bookworm


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
*****

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: bookworm14]
      #4401641 - 02/21/11 01:42 PM

OTA tune up? Much less scope there or need as the production tolerances are necessarily much tighter. It used to be common practice in the 'bad old days' to buy a mass produced scope, refigure the mirror and sell it on, gradually improving your current instrument over many years.

Focusers are a popular after sales modification but most optics are serviceable and if not up to spec (no pun) can usually be returned.
Rarely an ota may need baffling/flocking. Sometimes a better secondary mirror may help.
Unless you want to get into the esoteric world of lens design then generally no, ota's are probably best left to the manufacturers or experts.
Suitable test equipment and more importantly the expertise to use it and interpret the results would have to come first.

Also, I'm not sure 'hypertune' is an accurate term (or 'supertune') they both smack of marketing to me rather as 'de lux' has come to mean bigger, not better. Although they are in common usage, generally accepted and understood in the astronomical community to mean 'enhanced in some way'.


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bookworm14
sage


Reged: 03/22/08

Loc: Georgia
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #4401929 - 02/21/11 04:17 PM

Well, the reason I asked is because I am not getting good images of Jupiter on visual with my CPC 11 inch. Jupiter is mostly a bright blob with very little detail. I can barely make out some bands. So I was thinking about sending the OTA off to be "hypertuned" or "super-collimated" or "rejiggered" or whatever the term might be. Thus my question.
bookworm


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dkb
sage


Reged: 07/23/08

Loc: Minnesota
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: bookworm14]
      #4402035 - 02/21/11 04:56 PM

I'm not sure how finding a bearing inside a mount that takes a large amount of force to turn by hand, even compared to the other exact same bearings in the mount (this being a CGEM with 6 ring bearings) is not evidence enough that a "HyperTune" was worth it. You don't need a photometer outside to measure if it is day time or night time while you are standing outside do you? These fixes/modifications are quite evident and don't require empirical data to back them up. If I were to claim that this improved my periodic error then yes, I would expect to see some before and after data.

The problem is as I see it is that individuals here are lumping every modification/opening of a mount as "HyperTuning". Just because someone sells you a mount that is labelled as self "HyperTuned" doesn't mean they did a good job or knew what they were doing. They are using the terminology to sell a product that they perceive as an extra feature that can garner more money. When it is "HyperTuned" badly it obviously gives the rest of the people who did do a good job a bad stigma. Some of the "fixes" which have shown drastic improvements mentioned here are for the CGEM which are fairly easy to fix when you know how to fix it or "HyperTune" it and have consistently shown improvements.


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gnowellsct
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/24/09

Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: dkb]
      #4402124 - 02/21/11 05:46 PM

I think hypertuned means that the mount has been altered after market to perform to the manufacturer's specifications because the manufacturer can't or won't meet specifications.

regards
Greg N


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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #4402688 - 02/21/11 10:11 PM

Greg,
I think you're pretty much on target. The reason many of us Hypertune our CGEMs is because of its poor mechanical performance, specifically in balancing and tracking. This is typically due to ring gear binding in the housing or a bad bearing. These are not minor problems that work themselves out. Take a look at John's photos of his DIY Hypertune over on the Yahoo group.

I don't think a majority of mounts need a rework and upgrade. Most folks are pleased with their performance. There are some mounts though that do need some significant work to get them running correctly.

Hypertuning is just one more aspect of this hobby that seems to spark a heated debate. LOL. Like every other aspect does not? I find these debates both informative and at the same time, frustrating. Far too often they devolve into FUD and we're left with just another thread abandoned and archived with no one who reads it later, really sure what the 'facts' are.


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alrosm
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/27/10

Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: j.w.white]
      #4402807 - 02/21/11 11:03 PM

I'm surprised, I heard a lot about doc clay with meade but I never heard about hypertuning for celestron mounts.

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gosavich
member


Reged: 12/22/08

Loc: Tempe, Arizona, USA
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #4404391 - 02/22/11 06:04 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Here's to confirmation bias and the celebration of quantitative and actual comparisons....

Clear Skies!

:-)


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RTLR 12
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: gosavich]
      #4404409 - 02/22/11 06:14 PM

Would a simple worm gear adjustment show the same results?

Stan


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gosavich
member


Reged: 12/22/08

Loc: Tempe, Arizona, USA
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #4404467 - 02/22/11 06:48 PM

In this particular case, no. I don't think a simple worm gear adjustment would have improved the raw PE as much as doing a complete tear-down, bearing replacement, re-assembly, re-greasing, and final adjustment has shown here with my particular results. One of my original RA bearings had been throroughly worn and needed to be replaced. As with anything in the hobby, however, YMMV.

I do agree with the interpretation that "hypertuning" can, in some cases, be thought of as regular servicing. But servicing implies the periodic application of basic work and adjustments to maintain performance. The goal of "hypertuning" is to measurably improve performance.

So, whether you choose to embellish the terminology or not, the end results in my case were very positive.

:-)


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? *DELETED* new [Re: gosavich]
      #4405869 - 02/23/11 12:05 PM

Post deleted by Bowmoreman

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tjugo
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/06/07

Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: EFT]
      #4406155 - 02/23/11 02:07 PM

Hi,

In my experience hypertune means that the mount has been disassembled and adjusted to improve performance. But that doesn't mean the mount will perform better.

In my experience a DIY hypertune will degrade the mount's performance.

I tried to hypertune my CG5, why? Because the Dec axis was impossible to balance. I ruined my mount, after a couple of nights the Dec axis was stuck...

I gave up and send the mount to deep space products. I was lucky because the damage I inflicted to my mount was repairable.

After the service provided by deep space products the mount can be balanced in Dec and the PE is much smoother...

My advise is:

-- Don't hypertune your mount unless it really has a problem. In case you decide to do it, send it to a pro
-- Don't do it yourself, really, it is more likely that you will break it!

Cheers,

Jose


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? *DELETED* new [Re: tjugo]
      #4406201 - 02/23/11 02:26 PM

Post deleted by Bowmoreman

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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
*****

Reged: 09/11/06

Loc: Bolton, MA
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? *DELETED* new [Re: EFT]
      #4408669 - 02/24/11 03:41 PM

Returning this thread for resumption of the discussion after some cleanup relating to TOS violations.

Thanks for your patience


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jimb1001
sage
*****

Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: Florida
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? *DELETED* new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #4410521 - 02/25/11 12:01 PM

If your mount is working properly, ie. to manufacturing specs, hypertuning is unlikely to make it "better".

If your mount is broken or not operating to spec, hypertuning then becomes a repair with maintenance issues resolved as a result of tear down and reassembly.

Warranty work is likely to be hit or miss in terms of actually fixing the perceived problem and will likely take much longer than you want.

Doing it yourself is likely to worsen performance.

If its broken, get it fixed, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Does that pretty much sum things up?


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? *DELETED* new [Re: jimb1001]
      #4412514 - 02/26/11 10:05 AM

Quote:

Doing it yourself is likely to worsen performance




Not if you know what you're doing.


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avarakin
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/13/09

Loc: Parsippany NJ, USA
Re: What does HyperTunes mount mean? new [Re: alpal]
      #4415373 - 02/27/11 05:16 PM

Quote:

There is an adjustment on the Dec & RA shafts to place
the gears closer together (on an EQ6 mount & probably all mounts)
It is very important to have it right otherwise backlash
problems will stop auto-guiding from working.
That was my case until I had it fixed.
That is a hypertune in my book but you could also put
in good quality bearings & grease.




Al,

What you described is called worm gear mesh adjustment and I don't think this can be called hypertuning. All owners of GEMs should be able to perform this simple mechanical operation because it has to be done periodically and may require several iterations to get it just right.

Alex


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