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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
*****

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: Logan Tudor]
      #5183124 - 04/21/12 12:05 PM

Quote:

Hey guys, for anyone planning to attend those conferences, would you kindly take video footage of the mount, upload to YouTube and post the link back here (for the benefit of your international astro brothers).

Cheers,

Logan.




Just wanted to say welcome to Cloudy Nights!

David


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gdd
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: N Seattle suburb, WA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: bobhen]
      #5183130 - 04/21/12 12:11 PM

Quote:

I would actually like to see AP develop a killer 25lb imaging/35lb load capacity mount that is as portable as say a CG5 or Losmandy GM8 with all the attributes of their other mounts – and with a target price of 3.5 – 5k. Lots of amateurs are getting older and downsizing but wanting to retain AP quality and precision. I just bet a mount in that range would be their biggest seller in the coming years.




The problem is to retain the same goto and tracking precision in a smaller package requires more mechanical precision and greater cost. For example the G-11 and the GM8 are manufactured to the same level of precision, but the GM-8 can track only half as accurately because the worm wheel is half the diameter.

Gale


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bobhen
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/25/05

Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: Paul G]
      #5183163 - 04/21/12 12:33 PM

.




I would actually like to see AP develop a killer 25lb imaging/35lb load capacity mount that is as portable as say a CG5 or Losmandy GM8 with all the attributes of their other mounts – and with a target price of 3.5 – 5k. Lots of amateurs are getting older and downsizing but wanting to retain AP quality and precision. I just bet a mount in that range would be their biggest seller in the coming years.

Bob




The old AP400 GTO fit the bill perfectly.





Yes - the AP400 did.

And I’m a little surprised that AP has not revisited that end of the market. Of course, there could be many reasons from profit margin, to competition, to manufacturing start-up costs, etc. that, as an outsider, I/we are not privy to. But, from the bleachers, it looks like a market segment that would be worth addressing – for those that want more than what a GM8 or the imports offer.

Bob


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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: bobhen]
      #5183189 - 04/21/12 12:51 PM

Quote:

A Mach 1 will handle a C14 for visual a lot better than a G11 – especially with a Losmandy G11 or Rob Miller tripod.




I am certain that this is true. I would like to work up to imaging at 3900mm with the C14, though. I doubt that the Mach1 would do well here. By spec, the 900 will do it. But I've spoken with 900 and 1200 owners, as well as some folks at AP. All pretty much say that it's a stretch for the 900, and that the 1200 would be a better choice.

I'm currently thinking about the 900 with something like the Edge HD 11". It's very rare to get seeing that will support 3900mm, plus the quality of the Edge's field should be much better than the C14. But since I already have the C14, that's a pretty expensive option by comparison.

Long term, I was hoping to do an observatory with a 14" to 17" RC or CDK and get away from SCTs. That's definitely AP1200 (or I guess AP1600, now) territory.


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saadabbasi
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/23/09

Loc: 29N
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5183212 - 04/21/12 01:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A Mach 1 will handle a C14 for visual a lot better than a G11 – especially with a Losmandy G11 or Rob Miller tripod.




I am certain that this is true. I would like to work up to imaging at 3900mm with the C14, though. I doubt that the Mach1 would do well here. By spec, the 900 will do it. But I've spoken with 900 and 1200 owners, as well as some folks at AP. All pretty much say that it's a stretch for the 900, and that the 1200 would be a better choice.

I'm currently thinking about the 900 with something like the Edge HD 11". It's very rare to get seeing that will support 3900mm, plus the quality of the Edge's field should be much better than the C14. But since I already have the C14, that's a pretty expensive option by comparison.

Long term, I was hoping to do an observatory with a 14" to 17" RC or CDK and get away from SCTs. That's definitely AP1200 (or I guess AP1600, now) territory.




Celestron states that a C14HD's weight is about 45lbs. The AP900 can hold 70 lbs, if I recall correctly. This really shouldn't be an issue for a AP900, even with accessories. A 17" scope, of course, requires a bigger mount. Just my 2 cents - I've never really owned a mount besides G11 so I don't know what I'm talking about, but thought I'd pitch in.


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Logan Tudor
member


Reged: 12/28/11

Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #5183622 - 04/21/12 05:39 PM

Thanks David, long time reader at this forum - but with this big news - time to check in! Can't wait for the video footage Logie.

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turtle86
Pooh-Bah Everywhere Else
*****

Reged: 10/09/06

Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5185641 - 04/23/12 12:20 AM

Quote:

I'm wondering if this encoder option will migrate to the AP900 and Mach 1. That would appear to be the way of the future. I hope it would be a retrofit, though. Otherwise, that would really be heck on mount sales/ resales. Maybe a slightly larger mount than the AP900 could appear (AP1000?), but going any bigger than the Mach 1 is coffin corner, since that will kill mobility; the raison d'κtre for the Mach 1 GTO.

So I'm hoping for the retrofit kit...

-Rich




My thoughts too. The absolute encoder option sounds great, but I'd also like to see in a more portable mount like the AP 900.


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orlyandico
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: turtle86]
      #5185848 - 04/23/12 05:48 AM

well if you look at the price of an AP400GTO - even used, today, its $3500.

this is an 18lb imaging capacity mount.

now before you all pillory me - the AP600 is the 25-lb capacity imaging mount (straight from Roland - the C9.25 @ 22lb is the most he'd recommend on the AP600).

is anybody going to buy an 18-lb capacity imaging mount for $3500?

thought so..

and the Mach1 weighs less than the AP600. How much does an AP400 weigh? 21 lb according to AP. The Mach1 is.. 29. And carries more than the 33 lb AP600.


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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/01/08

Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5186463 - 04/23/12 01:50 PM

Quote:

well if you look at the price of an AP400GTO - even used, today, its $3500.

this is an 18lb imaging capacity mount.

now before you all pillory me - the AP600 is the 25-lb capacity imaging mount (straight from Roland - the C9.25 @ 22lb is the most he'd recommend on the AP600).

is anybody going to buy an 18-lb capacity imaging mount for $3500?

thought so..

and the Mach1 weighs less than the AP600. How much does an AP400 weigh? 21 lb according to AP. The Mach1 is.. 29. And carries more than the 33 lb AP600.




The Mach1 is actually listed as 32.1 lbs once you include the counterweight shaft. It's in the same ballpark as the AP600, so yeah, I can see the benefits of the Mach1 over the AP600.

However, 21 lbs vs 32.1 lbs is a bit more noticeable. If you are looking for something as portable as possible, there are better options than the Mach1. The AP400 was in that realm and was culled. Right now, there aren't many obviously great options for folks looking in the lightweight range for doing AP at star parties where you don't want a lot of weight in the mount itself.

That said, I can still see why the AP400 was culled. The group of folks looking for "ultra-portable" setups and willing to pay the costs for such are fairly small. Most folks will want more capacity, and shrug at 10 lbs (50% extra weight in this comparison). Also, if the AP400's PE wasn't worlds better than the more affordable mounts, then that is another ding. As a lot of folks will look at p-p numbers at time of purchase, and not the smoothness, as almost nobody reports it.

Although in the case of the AP1200, I suspect it got culled because of what the AP1600 represents: the next set of technologies. With the encoder system able to bring down the periodic error so low, I'd imagine he'd want to roll this out to the rest of the lines. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the AP900 gets replaced by a newer model with a bit more capacity and this encoder system "soon-ish".


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
*****

Reged: 04/30/03

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: Kolenka]
      #5186480 - 04/23/12 01:55 PM

Quote:

Right now, there aren't many obviously great options for folks looking in the lightweight range for doing AP at star parties where you don't want a lot of weight in the mount itself.




Yes, the 25 pound EM-11 is pretty much alone in that category.


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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #5187431 - 04/24/12 01:43 AM

Quote:

Celestron states that a C14HD's weight is about 45lbs. The AP900 can hold 70 lbs, if I recall correctly. This really shouldn't be an issue for a AP900, even with accessories. A 17" scope, of course, requires a bigger mount. Just my 2 cents - I've never really owned a mount besides G11 so I don't know what I'm talking about, but thought I'd pitch in.




I just thought that I'd post a follow-up on this.

I spoke with AP again this morning and decided on the AP900. I placed the order and it should ship this week.

-Wade


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saadabbasi
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/23/09

Loc: 29N
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5187496 - 04/24/12 03:37 AM

That's great Wade! Hope to order mine soon enough.

I have no doubt that the AP900 should be able to handle the C14. I recall some people even having success with a C14 on a G11 - yes, for imaging. So if G11 can handle it, with some effort, then the AP900 shouldn't even break a sweat.


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Sunspot
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 03/15/05

Loc: Surprise, AZ
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #5187859 - 04/24/12 10:53 AM

My question is would a C14 on an AP900 mount work if I do planetary imaging at F/30 or so. Of course I'm using the C14 on a CGE-Pro right now, so that should probably answer my question...

Paul


Quote:

That's great Wade! Hope to order mine soon enough.

I have no doubt that the AP900 should be able to handle the C14. I recall some people even having success with a C14 on a G11 - yes, for imaging. So if G11 can handle it, with some effort, then the AP900 shouldn't even break a sweat.




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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #5187867 - 04/24/12 10:58 AM

The AP900 is going to be a great mount. I did order sufficient counterweights to be able to run it with the C14 set up for imaging.

I do think that we may have different ideas about what "works". I'm not looking for what can be done. My CGE is the equal of a G11, and I know several people who have successfully imaged with a C14 on one. After 9 years of using the CGE, I am not interested in pushing the envelope.

I am looking forward to taking it for granted that I don't have to consider mount behavior in my session planning and execution. I don't want to have to worry about losing data when the wind blows. I don't want to have to shift balance on a meridian flip. I don't want to spend a bunch of imaging time trying to troubleshoot why the same setup that gave me 1 arc second guiding last night, is now giving me 3 arc second oscillations.

To be honest, I've actually gotten to be pretty good at doing all these things. It's just that I've been there and done that. Now I want to be spending my dark sky nights looking at the sky while my rig quietly captures data.

The AP900 should easily fit the bill for every combination that I use most of the time. And I believe that if AP says it will work, it will also give me a good experience with the C14. The AP1200 would have removed all doubt.

Finally, I want to clarify that I'm only pointing out some of this because I was fully planning to get the 1200, and I'm offering an explanation as to why I didn't select the 900 from the start. This doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for getting my new mount next week in any way. I've been thinking about this upgrade for the last 4 years and it really hasn't settled in yet that it will be here next week. I am totally jazzed about it.


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5187896 - 04/24/12 11:20 AM

Quote:

I spoke with AP again this morning and decided on the AP900. I placed the order and it should ship this week.



Did you ask them when they are going to discontinue the AP900. I think it is coming. They need a modern/updated mount to compete with the Paramount MX. The AP900 is just a replica of the old AP1200 design.


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DeanS
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: Alph]
      #5187902 - 04/24/12 11:26 AM

Or was the 1200 a replica of the 900?

Either way I am in no rush to get rid of my mounts, however I did sign up for the 1600 just in case

I hope Roland has a price on these for this weekend at NEAF. I see the base for the 3600 as $20k so can't imagine the base for the 1600 should be more than $12-13k?? The bigger question is what will it be loaded with all the fancy encoders.

Oh, and one has to wonder how long it will be before an all new Paramount is released? I doubt it will be too long from now

Edited by DeanS (04/24/12 11:28 AM)


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saadabbasi
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/23/09

Loc: 29N
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5187927 - 04/24/12 11:44 AM

Quote:


I do think that we may have different ideas about what "works". I'm not looking for what can be done. My CGE is the equal of a G11, and I know several people who have successfully imaged with a C14 on one. After 9 years of using the CGE, I am not interested in pushing the envelope.




Not sure if that was for me, but yes, I agree with you. If you spend this much money, you shouldn't be thinking of pushing the envelope, or making the sure the balance is just a tiny bit off so the gears mesh right etc.

The mount should just work and should be able to handle it's rated load without any issue and I definitely think AP900 would work well for this.

And yes, after the AP1600's announcement I did begin to wonder if AP will introduce a AP900 with absolute encoders. Wish we had the answer to that because then I would definitely wait for that mount.


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RAKing
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/28/07

Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5187965 - 04/24/12 12:03 PM

Quote:

I am looking forward to taking it for granted that I don't have to consider mount behavior in my session planning and execution. I don't want to have to worry about losing data when the wind blows. I don't want to have to shift balance on a meridian flip. I don't want to spend a bunch of imaging time trying to troubleshoot why the same setup that gave me 1 arc second guiding last night, is now giving me 3 arc second oscillations.




Welcome to the world of A-P!

I have been using my Mach 1 for over three years now and I forgot about all those hassles the day after I started using it.

The quality and reliability are what sent me to A-P in the first place and I think I am done thinking/worrying about mounts for the rest of my astro career.

Cheers,

Ron


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5187978 - 04/24/12 12:10 PM

Perhaps the A-P 900 will grow in capacity (but not mass) to become the A-P 1000 or A-P 1100, next year.



- Jim


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AFAdrenaline
sage


Reged: 12/08/10

Re: AP 1200 No longer Available-1600GTO! new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5188109 - 04/24/12 01:32 PM

Really bummed that the 1200 is done for (though hopefully in the quasi-near future I can help donate to someones purchase of the 1600... all i ask for is their 1200 haha)

In all seriousness though... the 900 was a little less than I wanted (capacity wise) and the 1200 a little more... an AP1000 or 1100 would be ideal and if it came with encoders I wouldn't have to think twice about it.


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