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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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neptun2
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/04/07

Loc: Bulgaria
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5534784 - 11/23/12 02:41 AM

I see that this new mount have permanent PEC. does that mean that we can use for example PEMPro to train the mount and store the information in the hand controller or this will not be possible?

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johnpd
sage


Reged: 04/13/08

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: EFT]
      #5534937 - 11/23/12 07:18 AM

That is interesting. I saw the post. It apparently has been deleted.

JohnD


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5534972 - 11/23/12 08:00 AM

Quote:



The encoder resolution is much more coarse 3.4 arc-min per tick. So for sure, the encoder is not used for closed-loop servo position tracking.
Encoder is only used in manual push-to situation.

I.e., view such design as a hybrid solution, either GOTO or PUSH TO, but not a combined solution.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello




Not really. Its intent is to provide just that, a combined system. Like the old Ultima 2000, go-to a target, then push to something without losing your alignment.


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TMSP
member


Reged: 07/21/12

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: rmollise]
      #5537222 - 11/24/12 01:09 PM

Looking at the discussion on the GOTO v. encoders as relates to on/off GT and push.

Appreciate the technical commnets, but don't understand. So, I am thinking about what works in the field. I started to map the options, but post to long. Basically, wonder how this will be managed and any options to "realign" (like the Meade program does) or otherwise handle. First reviewers, could you give us your thoughts? Does it work?

I set up GT, I use Handbox to choose and slew obtects. Now I want to do a long slew and impatient becauses its too slow (is it?), too noisy (is it) or I want to drive myself.

I imagine there is some "disengage" as simple as turning a clutch (no software buttons to pusH) and I speed across the Universe to the opject I want if viewable or close to it if I know the position.

What NOW? Engage, punch up the object and let the Handbox take over? Or,

If I center the obect manually and then turn to GT a


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: TMSP]
      #5537357 - 11/24/12 02:58 PM

TMPS,

1451:1 precision difference is about 1 mile vs. 1 yard.
Let's think about one axis (or one dimension) approach on this positioning precision problem.

Think about you've built a robot-car capable of driving on an Interstate Highway. With initial (3-star) alignment, it knows exactly the robot's position relative to the Highway's milepost.

If the robot is keeping track on yard measurement, if there is no slippage, the robot can drive for 321 miles 123 yard from milepost zero, its position should be 321 mile 123 yard. But if you disable the yard measurement method (or discard the result), all the robot can count is the milepost sign number with the precision of one mile range. So with the latter, it will know it's somewhere close to 321 mile +- 0.5 mile, but no more precision.
Would it be good enough? That's individual user's call.

Let me also provide a hint, if coarse precision is good enough for a GOTO system, how come there is no commercial GOTO system being built with that type of design (or will that vendor survive in a competitive world?)

My 0.02.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/27/08

Loc: Westminster, CO
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5537576 - 11/24/12 05:29 PM

Quote:

Let me also provide a hint, if coarse precision is good enough for a GOTO system, how come there is no commercial GOTO system being built with that type of design (or will that vendor survive in a competitive world?)




There are, and this is one of them. These encoders are designed for goto only, and the accuracy is to get the object into the field of view of the eyepiece. These are plenty good for that. Many systems have this feature.

Go here and start watching the video at 5:15 or so for an example of another system like that.


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5537619 - 11/24/12 06:08 PM

Yeah, he used the term: closed loop system on that XX16g. I'd call it a "rough closed loop" system instead for the reason I mentioned before.

P.S. when I said "that type of design" I meant a GOTO system only gives out arc-min type of resolution natively. (Yes I know that by using "push to" to ruin the precision resolution, the "rough" position can still be recovered.)


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5537624 - 11/24/12 06:11 PM

PPS. one way to regain precision positioning after the PUSH-TO is to inform the handbox the star (with its position known in the database) is now centered in the field. This would be similar with the one-star alignment.

Also, if encoder tick is precision enough (just like the milepost example), in the next GOTO, the handbox algorithm may use it to regain the precision position reference.


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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/27/08

Loc: Westminster, CO
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5537702 - 11/24/12 07:06 PM

Above you posted this. "The encoder resolution is much more coarse 3.4 arc-min per tick."

Well, that should be plenty for goto. Picking an extreme, a 50 degree APOV eyepiece at 600x is showing you 5 arc minutes of sky. Getting gotos to +/- 1.7 arc minutes would be great performance as it would have objects in the field of view of that extreme situation.

The high-precision stuff (either from the encoders/pulse counters on the motors or on really expensive systems by having high-precision encoders) is for accurately controlling speed and for guiding. For gotos, these encoders should be just fine, and they should enable a recovery from a slip or a push. Not that you should every cause the steppers to slip, but stuff happens you know.


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5538512 - 11/25/12 10:43 AM

Quote:


The high-precision stuff (either from the encoders/pulse counters on the motors or on really expensive systems by having high-precision encoders) is for accurately controlling speed and for guiding. For gotos, these encoders should be just fine, and they should enable a recovery from a slip or a push. Not that you should every cause the steppers to slip, but stuff happens you know.




Exactly. If properly executed, this will work more than well enough.


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martl
sage


Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Innsbruck/Austria
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: rmollise]
      #5538921 - 11/25/12 03:09 PM

Quite a lot of speculation going on here...In Europe the EQ6AZ costs about the same than a normal CGEM, but an illuminated polar scope comes as standard. The mount is, as far as I can judge after one test, cleverly designed. The altitude adjustment with only one screw is superior to the screw&counterscrew adjustment I have seen on many other mounts, because you can easily operate it with one hand with little force applied. Also the slip clutches are a very cool thing. First, the handles are always at the same position (anybody, who has tried to locate RA and Dec clamps in the dark while stabilizing the scope in that position will appreciate this greatly). Second, the danger of applying too much force to the worm block(e.g. if somebody bumps accidentially the tube or counterweights in the dark and believe me, this can happen! ) is reduced. The additional encoders may only be a consequence of the slip clutches to prevent the alignment from getting lost (it is of course easier to shift a telescope with slip clutches accidentially than with locking srews tightened down fully). Anyway, this is my first goto telescope and I didn't put my focus on goto precision, but rather wanted to test the guiding accuracy. This is what really counts if you want to do astrophotography, and the results exceeded my expectations. RA is very smooth, and the response in DEC to the autoguiding signals is very fast even if they change direction due to small overshooting. If weather permits, I will carry out further tests, but so far I don't regret bying this mount a second.
CS
MArtin


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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/27/08

Loc: Westminster, CO
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: martl]
      #5538956 - 11/25/12 03:24 PM

More than one site in Europe also reports the payload capacity as 25kg. Any thoughts on that?

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martl
sage


Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Innsbruck/Austria
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5539114 - 11/25/12 05:04 PM

Well, maybe if you are using a SC/RC or another short tube system on a permanent pier. I wouldn't mount a C14 on that, but if the CGEM can handle a C11, the EQ6AZ should be capable of doing this also.

CS
Martin


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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/27/08

Loc: Westminster, CO
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: martl]
      #5539148 - 11/25/12 05:40 PM

Quote:

Well, maybe if you are using a SC/RC or another short tube system on a permanent pier. I wouldn't mount a C14 on that, but if the CGEM can handle a C11, the EQ6AZ should be capable of doing this also.

CS
Martin




Well, a C11 weighs 27 pounds, and a C14 weighs 46 pounds. 25kg = 55 pounds. This guy (above) mounted a 37.5 pounds Newtonian and got great results tracking with OAG. I'm wondering if a C14 is really out of the question without lots of auxiliary components and for planetary imaging.


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TMSP
member


Reged: 07/21/12

Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5539174 - 11/25/12 05:54 PM

martl:

Thanks for your comments on the mount. Yours is the first report I have seen from a buyer. I mostly observe, so the push to is interesting feature, but does it work to keep alingment in the field and what is done to get it realigned is needed? Have you seen the manual for the SynScan? I understand it somewhat different in features to accomadate both AltAz and Eq. Thanks for any further comments as you have time and inclinations. I am looking hard at dropping $$ on one and appreciate any insight.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5540139 - 11/26/12 11:18 AM

Hard to say. You see the same stuff with Vixen mounts. The manufacturer's website provides one rating, and the US dealer "makes up" another, more favorable rating, likely to suggest that the mounts compete capacity-wise with more popular higher capacity, lower priced mounts. I'd go with the capacity rating Sky-Watcher posts when it lists the mount on its website.

- Jim


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martl
sage


Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Innsbruck/Austria
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5540505 - 11/26/12 03:21 PM

Well, "this guy" was me and I carried out the tests with my 8"f4 because I have to make an adapter for my smaller tripod to use the 10"f5, otherwise the eyepiece will be out of reach. However I have no reason to doubt that the mount also carries my 10"f5 for photographic applications provided that there isn't too gusty wind.

The manufacturer's specifications are 20kg and I don't think that they give this without reason. You may be able to fit a C14 to that, but with the necessary counterweights (at least 4x5kg I would estimate because a C14 will set the COG farther out) this will add a considerable mass which has to be kept in motion and accelerated for goto. Also the tripod may be too weak for this weight. If you want to use it for planetary imaging, it may work. For deep sky I have my doubts.

CS
MArtin


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martl
sage


Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Innsbruck/Austria
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: TMSP]
      #5540523 - 11/26/12 03:29 PM

Well, I certainly won't fiddle with the altaz configuration. I think this feature was completely dictated by the market, for me it is of no use, so I can't help you in this regards, sorry. I will test how the additional encoders can keep the goto orientation at the next possibility, however the forecast is mostly cloudy for the next 5 days, so I am a little bit dependant on weather conditions.

CS
MArtin


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BPO
sage


Reged: 02/23/10

Loc: South Island, NZ
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: martl]
      #5550490 - 12/02/12 02:55 PM

martl, your review should be interesting.

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Jack Huerkamp
Vendor - Waning Moon


Reged: 10/13/05

Loc: Louisiana
Re: AZ EQ6 in the US? new [Re: martl]
      #5559601 - 12/07/12 04:51 PM

Marti,

Based upon your success, I ordered an Az EQ6 from KW Telescopes in Kitchener, Ontario last week and it will be delivered next Tuesday. I plan on using a C9.25 on mine; and since the mount did so well with your 10" f/5, it should handle my OTA with ease.

Jack Huerkamp


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