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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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rmollise
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Celestron VX mount
      #5613234 - 01/09/13 07:52 AM

Y'all's thoughts on the good, old CG5's replacement?

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Ouranos
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613245 - 01/09/13 08:04 AM

Rod - where can you find information on this particular mount?

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fuzzystuff4ever
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Reged: 11/26/12

Loc: Micco, FL
Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613246 - 01/09/13 08:04 AM

Where is there information about it? I looked on Celestron's site and on several vendor sites and can't find any mention of it.

Brian


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613247 - 01/09/13 08:04 AM

Quote:

Y'all's thoughts on the good, old CG5's replacement?




Got a link? Not finding much with Google.

Jon


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johnpd
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Reged: 04/13/08

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613248 - 01/09/13 08:04 AM

Unc,

Where did you find this?

JohnD


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: johnpd]
      #5613252 - 01/09/13 08:06 AM

Quote:

Unc,

Where did you find this?

JohnD




Uncle Rod secretly runs Celestron, has for years. He just put that out there to get a little pre-announcement advertising.

Jon


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johnpd
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Reged: 04/13/08

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5613265 - 01/09/13 08:17 AM

I see an announcement of that and other new Celestron products in the Vendor's forum but no real specs.

JohnD


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mclewis1
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5613266 - 01/09/13 08:17 AM

From the Astronomics folks ...

Completely re engineered
PPEC
Wider latitude range
Tracking past the meridian
Autoguider port (which the CG-5 already has)
New motors (which should mean new gearbox and therefore hopefully won't have the 8/3 period errors)
RTC
Screw on power connector

Price is $100 more than the CG-5 so presumably $899 USD list.

So some questions ...

Type of bearings used on both axis?
Same tripod?
If not is the tripod to mount head attachment the same (can the same accessories like pier extensions be used)?
Same counterweights?
Motor controller board different? (should obviously be different but had to ask)
Height of mount head the same?
Vixen/CG-5 dovetail saddle? Better setup than original?
External DEC cable?

Edited by mclewis1 (01/09/13 08:50 AM)


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ouranos]
      #5613278 - 01/09/13 08:27 AM

Quote:

Rod - where can you find information on this particular mount?




I got what little info I have from a dude in the industry, but I see there's a little announcement on it in the Vendor Announcements forum right here on good, old CN...


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5613279 - 01/09/13 08:29 AM

Quote:


Uncle Rod secretly runs Celestron, has for years. He just put that out there to get a little pre-announcement advertising.

Jon




Sigh. If that were true we'd be talkin' about the new C22!


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fuzzystuff4ever
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613300 - 01/09/13 08:42 AM

Sounds interesting. Once they fire-sale price the discontinued CG5s I may buy one or two for future use (and spare parts).

Brian


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613308 - 01/09/13 08:49 AM

Let's all hope that Celestron did a COMPLETE test of the new mount and that it does what it's supposed to do right out of the box. The CG5-GT, especially at its pricepoint, is a tough act to follow.

David


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MikeBOKC
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5613334 - 01/09/13 09:05 AM

I visited with a Celestron rep at the Astronomics grand opening a few months ago and he mentioned this as a coming attraction. I wonder if Celestron is also going to jump into the dual EQ/alt-az mount area like the Meade LX-80. Ioptron seems to be preparing a similar rollout. Lots of neat products in the last few years, with more goodies to come!

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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5613343 - 01/09/13 09:10 AM

Quote:

I visited with a Celestron rep at the Astronomics grand opening a few months ago and he mentioned this as a coming attraction. I wonder if Celestron is also going to jump into the dual EQ/alt-az mount area like the Meade LX-80. Ioptron seems to be preparing a similar rollout. Lots of neat products in the last few years, with more goodies to come!




Celestron is, after all, owned by Synta who just introduced an alt-az/EQ GEM, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a CGEM alt-az.


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5613345 - 01/09/13 09:12 AM

Quote:

Autoguider port (which the CG-5 already has)
New motors (which should mean new gearbox and therefore hopefully won't have the 8/3 period errors)





I know this is something of a problem with the CGEM, but I have never seen nor heard tell of it in a CG5... Mr Ed, what say you?


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Starhawk
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613385 - 01/09/13 09:28 AM

I sincerely hope Celestron isn't jumping on the LX 80's bandwagon. That's more of a hearse. Given what VX is, I am a bit concerned about the message being sent with the name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

The VX needs to have been wrung out like the EdgeHD evidently was, so the design is known to work and the manufacturing activity's shipped results meet its advertised specifications.

If not, Celestron, ye be warned.

-Rich


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RTLR 12
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5613409 - 01/09/13 09:42 AM

All 3 of my CG-5s have an 'Auto Guide' port.

Stan


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5613542 - 01/09/13 11:35 AM

Quote:

I sincerely hope Celestron isn't jumping on the LX 80's bandwagon. That's more of a hearse. Given what VX is, I am a bit concerned about the message being sent with the name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

The VX needs to have been wrung out like the EdgeHD evidently was, so the design is known to work and the manufacturing activity's shipped results meet its advertised specifications.

If not, Celestron, ye be warned.

-Rich




VX nerve gas? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

And I don't see how the VX is similar to the LX80, which is a different design altogether.

As to how the new one will pan out? You never know till one is in the hands of the users, but being based on the CG5, it appears, I would hope the introduction will be relatively smooth.


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5613545 - 01/09/13 11:36 AM

Quote:

All 3 of my CG-5s have an 'Auto Guide' port.

Stan




Yep, the CG5 has had an ST-4 port since day one.


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ghataa
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Reged: 06/20/11

Loc: Central, NJ
Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613580 - 01/09/13 11:52 AM

Curious what the weight capacity will be. My CG-5 has performed wonderfully (especially after hypertune!) so hopefully this mount is a step forward!

Apparently this was at CES this week.

George


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tjugo
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Reged: 11/06/07

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: ghataa]
      #5613677 - 01/09/13 12:50 PM

FWIW, not much info but probably soon they will post some videos from CES.

http://www.celestron.com/portal/articles/cat/press-releases/post/celestron-de...

Cheers,

Jose


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Starhawk
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: ghataa]
      #5613809 - 01/09/13 02:18 PM

StarSense looks interesting- I wonder what it means about having an included hand controller. Is it a NexStar+ style controller included? Will it guide? I want to know!

-Rich


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: ghataa]
      #5613818 - 01/09/13 02:22 PM

Quote:

Curious what the weight capacity will be. My CG-5 has performed wonderfully (especially after hypertune!) so hopefully this mount is a step forward!

Apparently this was at CES this week.

George




According to what I am told, the same weight capacity as before is being advertised, 30-pounds. Will the mount be able to support more for imaging than it does now, which is around the weight of a C8 - guide scope for the current mount? Only time will tell.

Edited by rmollise (01/09/13 02:23 PM)


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MikeBOKC
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5613849 - 01/09/13 02:43 PM

For what it's worth Astronomics has knocked down the price on the retiring CG-5 to $549 today clearing them out to make room for the new VX model I assume.

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cn register 5
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Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5614000 - 01/09/13 04:14 PM

I've been beta testing an AVX mount since the end of November.

I think people will like it.

The tripod is almost the same as the AS-GT tripod but has a slightly different top, basically the azimuth control peg is further out.
The mount is slightly bigger than the AS-GT and looks like a baby CGEM. Features are:
RTC
PEC
Good motors and gearboxes - no 8/3 error and no cogging. Totally new motor control with two aux ports as well as the HC and guide ports.
Will track 20 degrees past the meridian.
It uses the Vixen style dovetail but with two beefy bolts.

I was able to set it up for autoguiding and do a PEC check - the original PECTool program works. I haven't been able to do enough to get it fully characterised but as far as I can see the PEC on mine is about 25" and seems reasonably consistent from cycle to cycle.

I think it will work well for imaging with at least the same mass as the AS-GT, probably more.

The firmware in the HC and mount seems pretty good, I found some minor problems but nothing that stopped it working. The HC is Nexstar+ only.

Upgrade does NOT use the HCUpdate or MCUpdate programs, there's an updated CFM program.

If they all work as well as the one I've got they will be good.

Hope this helps,

Chris


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mclewis1
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5614019 - 01/09/13 04:23 PM

Chris,

Thank you for telling us what you can ... it's appreciated.

Good news on the motors/gearbox. I know many CGEM owners will also be watching this aspect of the mount very closely ... and hopefully this will bode well for a proper solution for those folks in the future.


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evilmedic13
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Reged: 06/23/12

Loc: Chicago,Il
Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5614026 - 01/09/13 04:24 PM

Would it be worth the $ to upgrade? I;m looking at snatching a cg-5 now but, if the other would be better for ap, I'll wait. What's your ,now informed, opinion? I don't want details, or anything like that. You couldn't say anyway, and it's irrelevant. I just want to know if you'd upgrade, or be happy with a CG-5?

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mclewis1
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5614035 - 01/09/13 04:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Autoguider port (which the CG-5 already has) New motors (which should mean new gearbox and therefore hopefully won't have the 8/3 period errors)



I know this is something of a problem with the CGEM, but I have never seen nor heard tell of it in a CG5... Mr Ed, what say you?



Rod, I agree, CG-5 owners wouldn't know much about this (with no PPEC not many folks have spent much time digging into PE on the CG-5), but much of the hardware is the same between the mounts (CG-5/CGEM) and presumably with new motors and gear boxes the problem won't be inherent in the VX mount ... and this gives hope to the CGEM owners who do have to live with the 8/3 period errors.

Edited by mclewis1 (01/10/13 12:33 PM)


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evilmedic13
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5614100 - 01/09/13 05:06 PM

Belay my last post. I just ordered the 5! I've been waiting for it to hit that price for a few months anyway. Going to use it mainly for observing, and maybe ap with the 80mm apo, that's about it.

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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5614103 - 01/09/13 05:09 PM

I think that if the AVX is only $100 more expensive than the AS-GT then it's a no brainer - get the AVX. I found it easier to set up and get good guiding.

But the AS-GT hasn't changed, it's no better or worse than it was yesterday and if it's available at a good price then it might worth getting it, especially if you plan to use it with a light short focal length scope.

So the answer is - as usual - it depends :-)

Chris


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A. Viegas
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5614242 - 01/09/13 06:34 PM

Seems to me that the new price point for entry level AP will be closer to $800-900 if we look at the pricing range of the LX80 post introduction. So my 2c would be to snatch up the few remaining CG5-AGSTs now. Sure no PEC and gears and what not so as good as the VX, but if you are doing visual or video astronomy, you dont need much better.

Obviously if the new VX works as anticipated this will put pressure on the basic CGEM, why pay $500 more for basically 10 lbs of additional payload?!? So Celestron will canabalize a higher margin product in introducing the VX. If the finance people think about this, it would obviously beg the question that they need to seriously upgrade the CGEM to keep that price point intact.

just my 2c

Al


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RTLR 12
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #5614299 - 01/09/13 07:01 PM

The new VX is shown on the Celestron site...

http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-advancedvx-mount.html

Stan


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ourobouros2k2
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5614432 - 01/09/13 08:07 PM

Nice info,RTLR! I especially like the 360 view. I didn't notice any mention of ASPA in the specs though, but surely it must have it.

Edit: there is a sign/icon that says allstar polar alignment above the product spec tab. Just didn't see it

Edited by ourobouros2k2 (01/09/13 08:11 PM)


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RTLR 12
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: ourobouros2k2]
      #5614448 - 01/09/13 08:17 PM

Yes, they list ASPA in the description along with PEC< RTC, and some other features. Looks like a CG-5 and a CGEM offspring.

Stan


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frozen.kryo
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Reged: 01/28/11

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5614529 - 01/09/13 09:20 PM

Wider latitude range... yet it only does 7 to 77 degrees??

Didn't the CG5 go from 0 to 90 degrees? How do you go wider than that? Am I missing something here?

Anyway, it looks like a great mount. I liked my CG5. Hope this new mount isn't as noisy as the old one.

Edited by frozen.kryo (01/10/13 02:28 AM)


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ghataa
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: frozen.kryo]
      #5614578 - 01/09/13 09:59 PM

Looks very polished and reasonably priced. Hopefully it has the guts to be a strong performer like its Momma.

George


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jrbarnett
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5614591 - 01/09/13 10:06 PM

Is it a Sirius/HEQ-5 derivative?

It sounds like Celestron has a great bundle with this new mount plus a C8 Edge HD OTA for under $2k.

I was considering an 8" Edge HD OTA to experiment with anyway. It sounds almost like I'd be nuts not to hold off a bit and get this mount + OTA bundle.

"The star of the series is the Advanced VX 8” Edge HD, which combines Celestron’s best optical design with the Advanced VX for a stellar astroimaging telescope under $2,000."

Star sense also sounds like a nifty little tool for popularizing and democratizing astronomy. So easy even a caveman can use it to align a GOTO mount.

Regards,

Jim


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5614708 - 01/09/13 11:40 PM

Quote:

Is it a Sirius/HEQ-5 derivative?




According to the photos, it's a Vixen-themed mount rather than Tak. Looks like an updated CG-5.


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #5614722 - 01/09/13 11:52 PM

Quote:

Obviously if the new VX works as anticipated this will put pressure on the basic CGEM, why pay $500 more for basically 10 lbs of additional payload?!?




The mounts are more different than the 30 pound/40 pound specs imply. Bigger gears, bearings, etc. The CGEM minus tripod weighs more than twice the weight published for the bare VX so it's substantially beefier (weighs about the rated capacity, rather than 1/2 the rated capacity). The price difference will still be justified for those wanting something more substantial - but with any luck the VX will be even more bang for the buck than the CG-5 was, and that's saying something!


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jrbarnett
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5614745 - 01/10/13 12:08 AM

John, where'd you find photos?

Thanks,

Jim


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5614781 - 01/10/13 12:50 AM

Quote:

John, where'd you find photos?




Sorry - Celestron added the mount to their site sometime after this thread started.


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mclewis1
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5614783 - 01/10/13 12:51 AM

So it appears we have lots of good changes with the VX mount compared to the CG-5 ...

Same HC - NexStar+ (very important for compatibility and functionality benefits)
Additional AUX port (good for accessories like SkySync and SkySense - no need for an AUX port extender)
Better alt and az adjustments (nice change for folks in the field who are always changing the positions)
Better motors and gearbox (faster slews and hopefully lower PE)
Smaller motor housings (good for clearance issues)
Mechanically able to track 20° past the meridian (good, less inadvertent meridian flips)
External dec cable (similar to original but appears to be shorter and routed better)
Same counterweight shaft diameter (good for compatibility with original CG-5 CWs)
Shaped 11lb counterweight (good for clearance issues at lower latitudes)
Similar tripod (good for stability)
PEC (good for imagers)
RTC (good - should be able to hibernate and come back without data input)
Better saddle (two bolts and wide spacing will provide more robust clamping and still use same dovetails as on CG-5)
Thread on power connector - like CGEM/CGE Pro (good, will eliminate many intermittent electrical issues)

What I didn't like ...
Tripod leg clamp knobs are still on the outside (cable snagging potential)
Increased amperage requirement (not a big deal but will push folks to the 5 amp CGEM/CGE Pro AC power adapter which is 3x the price of the 2.5 amp model) - and I'll bet the very poor Celestron DC power cable will now become even more of an issue unless it's been upgraded too.

Still to be answered ...
Bearings used on the DEC axis?
How smooth the DEC axis is when autoguiding (and amount of backlash)
PE targets and how smooth the transitions are


So in general there are nice improvements for visual work and big improvements for imagers. For an extra $100 (and actually a bit more since CG-5s are not sold at list) the VX looks like a clear winner.


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Mariner@sg
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: frozen.kryo]
      #5614835 - 01/10/13 02:15 AM

Quote:

Wider latitude range... yet it only does 7 to 77 degrees??

Didn't the CG5 go from 0 to 90 degrees? How to you go wider than that? Am I missing something here?

Anyway, it looks like a great mount. I liked my CG5. Hope this new mount isn't as noisy as the old one.




Sigh. Low latitude users like myself needs more love here....



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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Mariner@sg]
      #5614898 - 01/10/13 03:56 AM

I checked mine, the latitude goes to just under zero degrees.

I've no idea about the bearings and I'm not about to take it apart.

I've not checked the power draw but the PSU is probably sized for the peak loads as the motors start. There are plenty of less expensive sources of power.

My guiding graphs look pretty good to me, peak error of a fraction of a pixel - when there's no cloud in front of the star at least.

The PEC graphs look reasonably smooth and consistent from cycle to cycle to me, with a peak to peak of about 25". I was able to use PECTool with PHD guiding to collect the PEC data.

Chris


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frozen.kryo
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5614907 - 01/10/13 04:20 AM

How about the noise level at max slew? Any improvement over the CG5GT? The motor covers look a lot better compared to the old 'resonators'.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: frozen.kryo]
      #5614998 - 01/10/13 07:55 AM

Quote:

Wider latitude range... yet it only does 7 to 77 degrees??

Didn't the CG5 go from 0 to 90 degrees? How do you go wider than that? Am I missing something here?

Anyway, it looks like a great mount. I liked my CG5. Hope this new mount isn't as noisy as the old one.




Yep, you are.

The CG5 did not really go from 0 to 90. If you wanted to go below about 30 degrees, you had to remove the front altitude adjustment bolt, which was the first thing I had to do when I got my mount.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5615001 - 01/10/13 07:56 AM

Quote:

Is it a Sirius/HEQ-5 derivative?






I'd have to say "no," since it uses servos. Looks like the offspring of Mama CG5 and Daddy CGEM to me.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5615174 - 01/10/13 10:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Autoguider port (which the CG-5 already has)
New motors (which should mean new gearbox and therefore hopefully won't have the 8/3 period errors)





I know this is something of a problem with the CGEM, but I have never seen nor heard tell of it in a CG5... Mr Ed, what say you?




It is somewhat strange that the 8/3 problem has never (to my knowledge) been reported with the CG-5 that uses the same motors as the CGEM. I don't know of any reports of motor cogging either. The CGEM uses a completely different motor board than the CG-5. The CG-5 board is derived from the same family of boards used by the CGE and Nexstar mounts and that is likely what makes the difference with the cogging. However, in regards to the 8/3 issue, I suspect that the 8/3 error is there with the CG-5 but it is lost in the noise of the mount in general. The improved design, gear quality and stability of the CGEM is likely the reason why the 8/3 error is more apparent since there is no other reason that the CG-5 should not have this error.

Hopefully, they have addressed these potential issues with the new mount.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5615200 - 01/10/13 10:31 AM

Quote:

Is it a Sirius/HEQ-5 derivative?

It sounds like Celestron has a great bundle with this new mount plus a C8 Edge HD OTA for under $2k.

I was considering an 8" Edge HD OTA to experiment with anyway. It sounds almost like I'd be nuts not to hold off a bit and get this mount + OTA bundle.

"The star of the series is the Advanced VX 8” Edge HD, which combines Celestron’s best optical design with the Advanced VX for a stellar astroimaging telescope under $2,000."

Star sense also sounds like a nifty little tool for popularizing and democratizing astronomy. So easy even a caveman can use it to align a GOTO mount.

Regards,

Jim




Definitely not a Sirius/EQ5 derivative. It clearly uses the same general structure as all Vixen GP clone mounts in this catagory. For me, if they added bearings to the DEC axis it will be a winner. Improving the bearings on the RA would be a bonus.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5615207 - 01/10/13 10:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Obviously if the new VX works as anticipated this will put pressure on the basic CGEM, why pay $500 more for basically 10 lbs of additional payload?!?




The mounts are more different than the 30 pound/40 pound specs imply. Bigger gears, bearings, etc. The CGEM minus tripod weighs more than twice the weight published for the bare VX so it's substantially beefier (weighs about the rated capacity, rather than 1/2 the rated capacity). The price difference will still be justified for those wanting something more substantial - but with any luck the VX will be even more bang for the buck than the CG-5 was, and that's saying something!




I agree that this is vastly different from the more robust CGEM design and will only compete with the CGEM as much as the CG-5 does. Its competition will be the Orions, Skywatchers and Vixens with similar configurations.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5615234 - 01/10/13 10:51 AM

Thanks John!

That's a very nice "clean up" of the CG5-GT.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5615271 - 01/10/13 11:09 AM

Quote:

That's a very nice "clean up" of the CG5-GT.




Nice turn of phrase, Jim. I wish I'd said that. Yes, it's clearly an update and adds some missing features plus there may be some performance improvement as well. At $800 it could well be an even better value than the $700 CG-5GT was.


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tjugo
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5615366 - 01/10/13 11:57 AM

IMO, the Cg5's achilles heel was the lack of bearings in the DEC axis, that made imaging more challenging even with light loads. I hope the VX has bearings on both axes. I want to move away the idea of getting an iOptron for my portable setup...

Cheers,

Jose

Edited by tjugo (01/10/13 12:12 PM)


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: tjugo]
      #5615536 - 01/10/13 01:26 PM

Theres some pics here

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/celestron-mounts/celestron-advanced-vx-mount....


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: tjugo]
      #5615588 - 01/10/13 01:53 PM

This looks like a definate upgrade from the old CG5AS, but I think I'll still spend the extra bucks for an HEQ5Pro when the time comes. If this works as advertized, good on Celestron.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5615695 - 01/10/13 03:02 PM

Where is the power connection? I can't see it in the photo.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Cow Jazz]
      #5615750 - 01/10/13 03:41 PM

I don't know what bearing type it uses and I'm not about to take it apart to find out. What I can say is that it guides well in Ra and Dec.

The latitude adjustment goes down to slightly less than zero degrees, but I'm not sure if the counterweight will miss the tripod at low latitudes, that may be why it's specified as 7 degrees.

I ended up doing far less playing with/testing the mount than I hoped because of the continuous clouds but found that it was quite easy to set up guiding, just run the PHD guiding calibrate function. I think I did have PEC on.

Chris


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5615865 - 01/10/13 04:46 PM

Here it is on their web site:
http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-advancedvx-mount.html

Price is $800
Latitude range is 7-77°

Here is a video by YouTuber CelestronDotCom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKDoxjmtmU


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Orionis91
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: ghataa]
      #5615886 - 01/10/13 04:56 PM

I want one :P it looks so cool and it has a bunch of ergonomic upgrades like bigger knobs and reshaped housings. should be fun :P.

Dave


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Orionis91]
      #5615996 - 01/10/13 06:21 PM

Anxiously awaiting this hitting the internet shelves. Looks like a viable option in today's market. Can't wait to hear reviews of this mount.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: fuzzystuff4ever]
      #5616145 - 01/10/13 07:43 PM

Quote:

Where is there information about it? I looked on Celestron's site and on several vendor sites and can't find any mention of it.

Brian




Here's the link:
http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-advancedvx-mount.html

Art


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dandabson]
      #5616554 - 01/11/13 12:40 AM

Probably I will buy one together with a C8 Edge

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5616607 - 01/11/13 02:29 AM

I've been asked about the noise levels of this new mount.

I think it's slews are quieter than my AS-GT but it's not silent - except when tracking.

It has the reduced rate 9 speed option.

Chris


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tjugo
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5616971 - 01/11/13 10:19 AM

I will never understand why people complain about CG5 slew noise, the mount is completely silent when tracking!

Cheers,

Jose

Edited by tjugo (01/11/13 10:20 AM)


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5616985 - 01/11/13 10:30 AM

Hi all, I don't think I have posted on this or any astronomy forum in quite a while. But I too was tapped to beta test the VX mount. I am not an imager, not even close, but I think it safe to say that anyone who liked the ASGT will like the VX even more. Everything about it is a bit nicer, a bit more robust, and of course up to date. It is amazing how the simple, simple addition of an RTC makes it more pleasant to use than its predecessor.

I scanned through the comments above and can answer a couple of questions I think have gone unanswered. The power connector is beside the thread on "south" polar axis cover. The power connector inserts parallel to the polar axis and it uses a connector with a threaded locking nut. The power cord is probably overly generous in length (I suppose for the benefit of those who power off an outlet in their cars) but it is decently heavy duty. It is the first Celestron supplied power cord that I have felt is worth using. To be fair I have not received one in quite a while and they may have upgraded their cords years ago, I remember the old, useless ones.

I've done a fair bit of testing with a Megrez 110 and a Celestron C6R which is counter weighted to move the eyepiece end a bit farther from the ground and comes in at 30 pounds before I add a diagonal or EP. For visual use it handles both of those loads like they aren't even there. So far I have run it down to 12 F (about -10 C) without any issues other than the expected LCD sluggishness. It points at least as accurately as any Celestron mount I own (Nexstar GPS, CGE, ASGT, CGEM), probably a bit better.

I would not say it is quieter than the original, although as Chris said it does have the reduced rate 9.

I think low latitude users will be happy with it. You will have to remove one of the adjustment screws. I believe if you live below about 5 deg you will have to tip the tripod slightly to get CW clearance. However it does adjust down to zero degrees and if you mount it on a permanent pier of small enough diameter it will be completely at home at the equator. Even at 42 degrees C6R owners like me will find that the focuser end of that OTA will crash into tripod legs during slews near the zenith so constant vigilance is required. Because of that I long ago purchased the 16 inch Orion pier extension for my ASGT. Be warned, although the Orion extension sorta fits the new mount and tripod you will have to remove the AZ adjust lugs and the mount head is not properly supported. So don't go there, you won't be happy. However if someone were to come out with a modified version of that pier extension or even just supply a modified upper mount head interface bracket for it you could have a completely portable setup that works fine at zero degrees and is free from long OTA crashes at any latitude. Just a hint to anyone, Celestron included, who owns a telescope mount accessory business....

Even though I don't image I am preparing to try to measure the PE and PEC. Wish me luck, I'm in way over my head! And like Chris my efforts to do more beta testing have been severely hampered by clouds. I've done enough to give it an enthusiastic thumbs up though!

Ken


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: tjugo]
      #5617036 - 01/11/13 10:57 AM

Quote:

I will never understand why people complain about CG5 slew noise, the mount is completely silent when tracking!

Cheers,

Jose




Just by doing some minor adjustments I have quieted my CG-5s down from about the 70db range to the 55db range. The larger the scope the louder the mount. The OTA acts like a megaphone. Using 'Custom Rate 9' reduces the noise level even more.

Stan


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5617045 - 01/11/13 11:04 AM

That is exactly what I am thinking too, Sedat.

It looks like they are offering a $100 savings on the C8 Edge HD + VX bundle (I assume "under $2000 means $1999).

Of course, if they end up clearing out Edge HD OTAs again and discounting the C8 version $200, buying the VX at full price and the OTA at a discount would be a better deal.

- Jim


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bilgebayModerator
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5617322 - 01/11/13 01:54 PM

Hi Jim,

My CG5 served me without any headaches for almost 8 years. Last year I sold it and bought an Astrotrac as part of my increased mobility plans but still missing the functionality and ease of use of CG5. As soon as I saw the VX news, I made the decision What remains now is to turn this into a reality If we can get a good deal on the bundle, that would be the icing on the cake as you say.

I plan to buy a Hyperstar lens for the C8 for imaging at f/2, which would take care of most of the tracking issues in addition to PEC and guiding.

This will be my dream setup for shooting on the go.

Clear skies

Sedat


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belgrade
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5617458 - 01/11/13 03:25 PM

The VX mount alone is priced right ($799), assuming this isn't only an "introductory" price which goes to $999 or something like that soon. If it works as advertised - something we will all know in only few months - it's a mount/tripod combo which can be bought and used by many for both causual visual astronomy and casual astroimaging. I know I will consider buying one. It's still fairly portable and can carry a payload of up 30 lbs. Not bad and definitively beats the competitor, LX80, which is, besides having issues, anywhere between $850 and $1,000 (most places $999).

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Orionis91
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: belgrade]
      #5617930 - 01/11/13 08:14 PM

I think this mount is a great idea, the question is, will it be enough to shake us from our already well loved ASGT's. I love the GoTo's I get with my Cg-5, and I just got my imaging set up working (yay). I will watch this mount and consider upgrading, but for me, the main thing to push me over the edge and buy it would be tracking performance and ease of use. Thumbs up for this little thing

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landshark99
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Orionis91]
      #5618037 - 01/11/13 09:17 PM

I just ordered one for my ES 127cf,they are supposed to start showing up in a few weeks

Edited by landshark99 (01/11/13 09:28 PM)


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bsim
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: landshark99]
      #5619255 - 01/12/13 03:15 PM

Looks like a nice mount. I'm looking forward to the reviews. I'm very happy with my CG-5 GT mount which has very good tracking and goto. I'm a strictly visual observer and don't use anything heavier than a C8. The only concern I have is that the VX mount looks to be quite large. The CG-5 GT mount is fairly compact and fits in a Plano case.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bsim]
      #5619573 - 01/12/13 06:13 PM

Actually, just the plain CG-5 was a very good mount, and it was based on the vixen Super Polaris. So the idea of a fourth generation for this size and style is interesting.

-Rich


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Orionis91
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5619941 - 01/12/13 10:33 PM

Anything based on the SP is good, I agree, CG-5 is built on SOLID ground. I am also very pleased with my CG-5. I hope this mount succeeds, and continues to strengthen the hobby.

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Geo.
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5620518 - 01/13/13 10:57 AM

Well, what's cheery is that it seems to be an evolutionary product building on the strengths of past mounts and eliminating some weaknesses. Nothing "revolutionary" and apparently not subjecting early adopters to the role of alpha testers as Meade seems to do repeatedly. It is interesting that the Vixen SP/GP heritage is so strong. Certainly, Synta has sufficient experience with the Tak type Sirius/HEQ-5 that it could have gone that route. Perhaps keeping the weight down was determative.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Geo.]
      #5620623 - 01/13/13 11:55 AM

Anybody seen "just" the VX mount alone listed anywhere for preorder? OPT has some VX/Scope packages but not just the mount alone.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5620644 - 01/13/13 12:05 PM

Astronomics has just the mount.

http://www.astronomics.com/celestron-advanced-vx-german-equatorial-telescope-...


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Starhawk
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5620905 - 01/13/13 02:21 PM

It looks a lot like they did something similar to the upgrade from the atlas to the CGEM. Much more evolutionary from the CG-5, and no hint they are considering a move to altaz.

-Rich


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5621236 - 01/13/13 05:01 PM

Any confirmation that there are bearings in the Dec Axis?

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5621328 - 01/13/13 05:52 PM

The "integer" gearbox is big news if it can be transferred to the CGEM. There is talk of a motor and control board package upgrade for the CGEM. That would take out the 8/3 error and make PPC something really useful in the CGEM. There is talk that there is a firmware update coming that does away with any DEC cogging issues. It looks like the CGEM and the VX are going in the right direction for Celestron.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Stew57]
      #5621368 - 01/13/13 06:11 PM

Quote:

The "integer" gearbox is big news if it can be transferred to the CGEM. There is talk of a motor and control board package upgrade for the CGEM. That would take out the 8/3 error and make PPC something really useful in the CGEM. There is talk that there is a firmware update coming that does away with any DEC cogging issues. It looks like the CGEM and the VX are going in the right direction for Celestron.




Would such an upgrade to the CGEM increase its load capacity and allow it to handle a C14 better?

Al


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Stew57
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #5621766 - 01/13/13 09:47 PM

It won't increase the ability of the bearings to carry more load, or the case, gears, and worm. It will give a greater tracking accuracy and enable the PPEC to work.

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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5621926 - 01/13/13 11:41 PM

Quote:

Any confirmation that there are bearings in the Dec Axis?




Yes of course there are bearings on the DEC axis, all mounts have bearings on both axes. I have no idea what kind of bearings the DEC axis has. I am not going to tear my mount apart and I cannot tell what kind of bearings it has without doing that. I would assume that unless Celestron is advertising whatever kind of DEC bearings you are keen to have as upgrades on this mount then it most likely has whatever DEC bearings (plain?) the previous version had.

I will, however, ask my Celestron contact and perhaps I can get you an answer some time tomorrow.

Ken


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core
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5621927 - 01/13/13 11:41 PM

Quote:

I checked mine, the latitude goes to just under zero degrees.





Chris, thanks for the confirmation; hopefully the shipped VX will go down to 0° latitude as in your unit (cwt hitting a tripod leg not withstanding); I'm a little weary as the official specs on Celestron's website states 7°-77°; hopefully there's an official option to go lower.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: core]
      #5621977 - 01/14/13 12:25 AM

I'm also not prepared to tear my AVX apart to find out what type of bearing it has. I don't think it really matters, my experience is that whatever it has it does accurate Dec guiding and that's what matters.

I asked about fitting these motor/gearboxes for the CGEM, I was told "not yet".

The 7 degree latitude limit is because of the tripod, not the mount adjustment range. The counterweights would hit the tripod legs.

Chris


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EFT
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5621987 - 01/14/13 12:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Any confirmation that there are bearings in the Dec Axis?




Yes of course there are bearings on the DEC axis, all mounts have bearings on both axes. I have no idea what kind of bearings the DEC axis has. I am not going to tear my mount apart and I cannot tell what kind of bearings it has without doing that. I would assume that unless Celestron is advertising whatever kind of DEC bearings you are keen to have as upgrades on this mount then it most likely has whatever DEC bearings (plain?) the previous version had.

I will, however, ask my Celestron contact and perhaps I can get you an answer some time tomorrow.

Ken




Ken,

The CG-5 was a perfect example of a mount that did not have bearings of any kind on the DEC axis. Thus, we cannot assume that the new mount has bearings. In fact, based on the apparent size of the DEC axis housing, I am not going to be surprised if the DEC still does not have bearings. I hoping that I am wrong since that was one of the big design flaws of the CG-5. BTW, the LXD55 did not have bearings on RA or DEC axis but it did have brass bushings which the CG-5 lacks. The CG-4 also does not have bearings.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EFT]
      #5622005 - 01/14/13 12:56 AM

These look pretty nice. I just put in a pre-order for one and I pre-ordered star sense too. Mount should ship this weekend. No idea when the starsense will ship.

Edited by Whichwayisnorth (01/14/13 10:54 PM)


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zawijava
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EFT]
      #5622321 - 01/14/13 09:30 AM

Thank you Ed, I'm glad you understood my question and gave an enlightened answer! -Tim

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Any confirmation that there are bearings in the Dec Axis?




Yes of course there are bearings on the DEC axis, all mounts have bearings on both axes. I have no idea what kind of bearings the DEC axis has. I am not going to tear my mount apart and I cannot tell what kind of bearings it has without doing that. I would assume that unless Celestron is advertising whatever kind of DEC bearings you are keen to have as upgrades on this mount then it most likely has whatever DEC bearings (plain?) the previous version had.

I will, however, ask my Celestron contact and perhaps I can get you an answer some time tomorrow.

Ken




Ken,

The CG-5 was a perfect example of a mount that did not have bearings of any kind on the DEC axis. Thus, we cannot assume that the new mount has bearings. In fact, based on the apparent size of the DEC axis housing, I am not going to be surprised if the DEC still does not have bearings. I hoping that I am wrong since that was one of the big design flaws of the CG-5. BTW, the LXD55 did not have bearings on RA or DEC axis but it did have brass bushings which the CG-5 lacks. The CG-4 also does not have bearings.




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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EFT]
      #5622635 - 01/14/13 12:57 PM

Quote:


The CG-5 was a perfect example of a mount that did not have bearings of any kind on the DEC axis.




bearing
n
1. (Engineering / Mechanical Engineering) a support, guide, or locating piece for a rotating or reciprocating mechanical part

I cannot speak for anyone else's mounts but both my ASGT and my AVX have some kind of bearings to support and guide the DEC axis. The DEC axle does not flop around loose inside the DEC housing. What the ASGT and probably the AVX have on the DEC axis are plain bearings. They are still bearings though. Some rather large and powerful steam locomotives used to run on bearings no better. They ran well enough that Timken actually had to commission the construction of a steam locomotive with roller bearings which they then loaned to railroads to convince them to abandon plain bearings. I understood perfectly well what the real question was and I promised to give a specific answer when and if I get one. And I still will. How was that not a thoughtful answer??? Just checked my email and I see a message from Celestron about another matter I asked about earlier in the weekend so hopefully they will work their way down to the bearing question in their inbox soon and I can tell you what kind of bearings the mount uses shortly.

So the weather lady just all but promised us sub-zero (F) weather in Chicago by this time next week. Oh joy! If you want to know know how the AVX handles that, ask me next week. Unless it is cloudy....

Ken


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5622706 - 01/14/13 01:37 PM

Well, the CG5 has bearings OF A SORT on the dec axis, just not bearings of the sort used on the RA axis. Which is what we want.

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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5623009 - 01/14/13 04:27 PM

I'm quite puzzled by this belief - almost an article of faith - that a plain bearing doesn't count as a bearing. We are talking about an axle that has a maximum rotation rate of 2/3 rpm. Why do people insist that the bearing must be a ball bearing that can run at 1000 rpm or more?

My tests show that the Dec can be guided to an accuracy of an arcsec or two and I think that that - regardless of the type of bearing - is what matters.

From a look at the mount there seems to me to be room for ball races.

Anyway, I've asked, let's see what comes back.

Chris


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5623052 - 01/14/13 04:47 PM

While a "bearing" can be quite a variety of things most folks don't consider a shaft sitting in a curved area cut into the casting of a mount to be a true bearing. True it can function quite well (as proven by the CG-5 and many other mounts) but it's also susceptible to being damaged through dirt/debris or just long term wear and once that happens there is no recourse.

Add a dissimilar metal sleeve in between and you have a "real" bearing, same as adding a race of ball or roller bearings. Any of these can be replaced and in some cases adjusted to compensate for wear or damage.

When bearings are used it is assumed (but certainly not always the case) that tolerances can be tightened up a bit which in our example could make for a mount with a bit less PE.


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tjugo
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5623094 - 01/14/13 05:17 PM

I own a CG5. The mount tracks well but DEC guiding was a big challenge, when imaging the DEC axis suffered from terrible stiction, it took several guide pulses to start moving and when it started it jumped by 4 arcsec. I had better results disabling DEC guiding.

I sent the mount for a tuning service and after that the stiction problem disappeared. So indeed this simple bearing-less design can work if it properly executed, however that is my main concern. I am sure that the beta tester mounts were carefully assembled and perform average or above average of the 'street' mounts.

As already stated a bearing-less design is more sensitive to manufacturing process, assembly, grease quality/amount, debris etc. For me a bearing-less design is a showstopper, at least for AP.

Cheers,

Jose


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5623329 - 01/14/13 08:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The CG-5 was a perfect example of a mount that did not have bearings of any kind on the DEC axis.




bearing
n
1. (Engineering / Mechanical Engineering) a support, guide, or locating piece for a rotating or reciprocating mechanical part

I cannot speak for anyone else's mounts but both my ASGT and my AVX have some kind of bearings to support and guide the DEC axis. The DEC axle does not flop around loose inside the DEC housing. What the ASGT and probably the AVX have on the DEC axis are plain bearings. They are still bearings though. Some rather large and powerful steam locomotives used to run on bearings no better. They ran well enough that Timken actually had to commission the construction of a steam locomotive with roller bearings which they then loaned to railroads to convince them to abandon plain bearings. I understood perfectly well what the real question was and I promised to give a specific answer when and if I get one. And I still will. How was that not a thoughtful answer??? Just checked my email and I see a message from Celestron about another matter I asked about earlier in the weekend so hopefully they will work their way down to the bearing question in their inbox soon and I can tell you what kind of bearings the mount uses shortly.

So the weather lady just all but promised us sub-zero (F) weather in Chicago by this time next week. Oh joy! If you want to know know how the AVX handles that, ask me next week. Unless it is cloudy....

Ken




Ken,

I would say that the DEC axis on the CG-5 does not really even meet this definition. There are surfaces that bear the load in the axis, but they are cast aluminum on cast aluminum that is machined without even a polish to the surface. While nearly any surface can be described as a bearing where one material moves past another, for the layman, bearings are ball, roller, needle so some other kind of bearing that consists of a round or spherical aparatus that rolls between races. The LXD55 had brass bushings that served as the bearing surfaces and, under right circumstances can be made to as good or better a tollerance than ball bearings (but of course that was not the case with the LXD55). I would take the brass bushings over the cast aluminum to cast aluminum contact surfaces in the CG-5. The DEC of the CG-5 causes me more trouble and takes me more time to get to a point that I consider satisfactory than just about any other mount I work on. While such an arrangement can work, it must be implemented correctly and manufactured with precision, which is simply not the case.

I look forward to hearing (and seeing) what you find.

Ed.


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EFT]
      #5624064 - 01/15/13 09:37 AM

I don't know, I talk to laymen all the time who use the word bearing correctly as a generic term like eyepiece. They understand that if you want a roller bearing then you say roller bearing. They would understand that a humble Kellner is still an eyepiece even if it doesn't have a hundred degree field. So far I have no response 17 from Celestron. Perhaps Chris will have better luck.

In the mean time I will try to remember something a couple of my dogs taught me long ago: keep the palm of your hand flat and stiff while feeding Cloudy Nights....

Ken


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5624415 - 01/15/13 01:28 PM

Ed, you took the words out my mouth there vis bearings.

Also interesting that the CG5 has no bearings in its DEC. i have one here to strip down but havent started on it. It will be the first CG5 I have taken to bits....deep joy. Its my sisters and in a bit of a mess.

I'd agree vis bearing faces that the precision of the faces in most of this stuff is not terribly high, usually its not a problem because it has some kind of bearing ( ball race or other ) but a unit where theres no interface of any kind doesnt to my mind bode well for smooth running even at the slow speeds and low loading of a telescope mount.

With all that said if the mount does run well without them then thats good news I guess, how do they wear I wonder. With the soft ally in these mounts I would think they must have limited life even at the slow speeds they are running at.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5624963 - 01/15/13 06:54 PM Attachment (120 downloads)

This is the sort of guide log I get, I'm using PHD with an ATK16 camera and a ST80 scope, this has a scale of about 4.3 arc sec per pixel

This is with PEC on and guided. I've measured the PE and the RMS error with PEC on and no guiding seems to be +- 2.6 arc seconds.

Edited by cn register 5 (01/15/13 06:56 PM)


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5625321 - 01/15/13 10:17 PM

If I may... I am curious why someone stated that the Orion pier extension won't work with the new mount...? Looking at the photos I can find on the web don't show to me how the knobs would get in the way or for that matter how the mounting is different on the head... Could someone please explain why it won't work?

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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5625615 - 01/16/13 03:33 AM

It's probably because the way the mount connects to the tripod is slightly different.

If the Orion pier extension is for the CG5 then the main difference is that the post that the Azimuth adjuster push against is further out. It should be fairly easy for the manufacturer to drill and tap a new hole for the adjuster.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5625652 - 01/16/13 05:14 AM

0.9" RMS with guiding? that's better than the spec of the LX850

6" p-p with PEC only is a very good figure, if correct.

The graph shows a persistent DEC error on one side only. Looks like a bit of DEC stiction there..

Replacement motors for the CGEM would interest me far more though... hoping.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5626141 - 01/16/13 12:50 PM

I sent an email to Celestron Tech Support on Monday requesting clarification on the VX Mount Dec Axis "bearings or no bearings" question but have not received a response. Seems like a simple question to answer....are they perhaps dragging their feet because.... "oops, we should have put bearings in the Dec Axis" ?

Quote:

Well, the CG5 has bearings OF A SORT on the dec axis, just not bearings of the sort used on the RA axis. Which is what we want.




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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5626473 - 01/16/13 04:04 PM

Quote:

It's probably because the way the mount connects to the tripod is slightly different.

If the Orion pier extension is for the CG5 then the main difference is that the post that the Azimuth adjuster push against is further out. It should be fairly easy for the manufacturer to drill and tap a new hole for the adjuster.

Chris




That would be fine. I can tap a new hole myself. My concern was that it was mentioned that the entire mount head itself would not attach correctly to the collar base. The current collar base has a inch or so cylinder that extends up from the base and the CG5 settles down on top of it then the retaining screw underneath fits into that.

If the new head doesn't have that same cylinder coupling then it would not work without a redesign of the collar base...

Does anyone know if this is the case?

Thanks again!


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5626716 - 01/16/13 06:11 PM

All I can say is that I tried it on my AS-GT tripod and it seemed to fit but that the Azimuth adjusting bolts didn't meet the post.

Try emailing Celestron.

Chris


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5626730 - 01/16/13 06:19 PM

Quote:


6" p-p with PEC only is a very good figure, if correct.




Not quite, I measured RMS of +-2.6", not peak to peak.
Assuming a normal distribution 68% of the samples will be within 2.6" of the mean and 95% within 5.2".

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5626870 - 01/16/13 07:47 PM

ohh that's RMS. Still a very creditable showing.

if the motors become available for the CGEM then I'm holding on to it forever (in spite of owning a Mach1)


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5626887 - 01/16/13 07:55 PM

Cheers Chris. I have been on the phone to Celestron relating to some issues I am having with my C11 and did actually ask them. They haven't actually seen the mount yet (at least the head Tech Support guy I spoke to and met in person) so they can't comment.

The post issue is an easy fix with a new hole tapped. Not fitting on the mounting part would be a problem! As it would require custom fabrication of a new base collar.


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627413 - 01/17/13 03:43 AM

Quote:

if the motors become available for the CGEM then I'm holding on to it forever (in spite of owning a Mach1)


I hear that's in the pipeline but an email to Celestron will help to keep them aware of the demand for this.

Chris


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5628812 - 01/17/13 08:18 PM

Quote:

If I may... I am curious why someone stated that the Orion pier extension won't work with the new mount...? Looking at the photos I can find on the web don't show to me how the knobs would get in the way or for that matter how the mounting is different on the head... Could someone please explain why it won't work?




I am the one who said that. The pieces do fit together but the interface between the mount head and the the tripod has both an inner cylinder and an outer bearing surface. The inner cylinder fits together fine the outer surface is larger in diameter than the Orion pier diameter so it just hangs off in space with nothing to support it. I ran that way for a while with a Megrez 110 which is around 12 pounds all up and I did not notice any issues. Then I tried it one night with a C6R. Mine is just about 30 pounds all up. Things started out fine. Then I did a polar alignment and as soon as I loosened one of the azimuth adjustment screws I got a HUGE shift in both AZ and EL. Ok, no problem I just readjusted everything to center the polar star and everything was good. Then I started taking some pointing accuracy data and after half a dozen stars or so it started missing everything by degrees. Nothing else seemed wrong and I have never had this issue again after removing the Orion pier so I can only assume that while I was running the test the poorly supported mount head shifted again and blew my alignment. The mount head is quite "floppy" with that much weight on it and that outer bearing surface left unsupported so I cannot recommend its use even at lower payloads because just because I did not see an issue with the Megrez it doesn't mean it can't crop up.

Here's a picture of how the mount head fits the upper pier adapter in the upper left corner and you can see the issue:



The outer edge of the mount head is unsupported and the location where you need to drill a new hole to mount the azimuth adjust lug is likewise air. It will be very easy to drill and tap! The next photo clockwise shows the pier adapter removed from the mount head and you can see how I solved the missing azimuth lug problem. The next photo clockwise shows the mount head set to zero degrees and the CW shaft straight down. The small CW is the one shipped with the AVX and it easily clears the pier. The large one is actually a CGEM Pro CW shimmed to fit the CW shaft and even it clears by about 6 mm. So there is incentive to use the pier extension near the equator but a new or modified top adapter is needed. Even at 42 degrees the extension will keep the C6R from crashing into tripod legs during slews which it will do with the mount head directly mounted to the tripod.

The final, lower left, photo shows the CW shaft end of the DEC axis with the CW shaft and "locknut" removed. It doesn't really tell you anything about the bearings on the DEC axis other than it does look a whole lot like the same view of the ASGT mount. I can't disassemble this mount any further because I need to be able to pull valid quantitative data from it.

Ken


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frozen.kryo
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5628956 - 01/17/13 09:52 PM

Wow, that view of the DEC locknut reminds me of the CG5 and the endless hours fine-tuning that nut.

I sure do hope there are at least thrust bearings behind that locknut. I think tapered rollers are too much to ask at this price range.

The castings look better than the old mount though.

Ken/Chris, any chance you could upload a video to youtube showing the mount at max slew? I think people would be interested in hearing and seeing the mount in action.

Edited by frozen.kryo (01/17/13 09:57 PM)


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: frozen.kryo]
      #5628995 - 01/17/13 10:16 PM

the Vixen GP has that exact same DEC lock nut..

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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5629223 - 01/18/13 12:55 AM

Quote:



I am the one who said that. The pieces do fit together but the interface between the mount head and the the tripod has both an inner cylinder and an outer bearing surface. The inner cylinder fits together fine the outer surface is larger in diameter than the Orion pier diameter so it just hangs off in space with nothing to support it. I ran that way for a while with a Megrez 110 which is around 12 pounds all up and I did not notice any issues. Then I tried it one night with a C6R. Mine is just about 30 pounds a





Thank you Ken! That is *EXACTLY* what I was confused about! I see from the photos what you mean! *THAT* dog is not gonna hunt for sure! Looks like I keep the CG5 for visual with the ES 127mm and get the AVX for AP with the 80mm until someone comes up with a replacement for the pier...

May have to design it and have it fab'ed it myself since the pier is a nice way to view but a bit too tall as it is... Something to do in all my spare time!


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5629311 - 01/18/13 03:26 AM

Thanks for posting that Ken, I was assuming that the pier head was about the same size as the tripod head. Sorry to mislead people, it shows how easy it is to speculate out of one's experience.

Chris


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5629605 - 01/18/13 10:13 AM

Quote:

Thanks for posting that Ken, I was assuming that the pier head was about the same size as the tripod head. Sorry to mislead people, it shows how easy it is to speculate out of one's experience.




And as you have said, people should look at your guiding numbers rather than making judgements based on assumptions about what type of bearings are in this mount or what plain bearings are capable of doing. In my experience Celestron is a company that does listen to customers and that does implement their suggestions to the limit of what they can do within the budget set by what those same customers are willing to pay. If dissatisfaction with the DEC bearings on the ASGT has been made known to Celestron then it is likely that they have done something to address it in the AVX and we should judge that something by whether it is successful or not, rather than preemptively declaring anything except our personal favorite solution to be unacceptable.

Ken


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5629646 - 01/18/13 10:35 AM

Quote:

until someone comes up with a replacement for the pier...

May have to design it and have it fab'ed it myself since the pier is a nice way to view but a bit too tall as it is... Something to do in all my spare time!




I've been noodling some ways to add a support plate to the pier adapter I have because I honestly can't see using the ASGT any more now that I have the AVX! In fact for what I do I don't need a CGEM any more either since the AVX can do much of what I might use the CGEM for and my CGE can do the rest but better and garage space is at a premium. But that is me and my personal situation, I am NOT trying to claim that the AVX obsoletes the CGEM!

I think that I can come up with something to do with my existing Orion pier adapter that will make it compatible. I've put a bug in the ear of Celestron about offering a compatible version. For all I know Synta makes the Orion piece and they have all the information in house to make a compatible version. It could help the cause if others were to do likewise. Failing that there are any number of astronomy machine shop businesses that could be petitioned to offer a replacement adapter either as a product or as a one-time/occasional group buy. I agree that the Orion pier is too long or at least longer than it needs to be by about 4 inches.

Ken


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zawijava
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5629684 - 01/18/13 10:55 AM

I agree Ken, but until someone at Celestron speaks up and states what "that something" is or isn't, we're left in the dark. With statements like "Engineered from the ground up with astroimaging in mind", and "The new Advanced VX mount was specifically designed to provide optimum imaging performance for smaller telescopes" , I would hope that they have done something to the Dec axis which would allow for consistently good guiding performance in the Dec axis.....something the ASGT apparently lacked. I, for one, am not willing to place a preorder for a VX until clarification is forthcoming. If changes have been made and spelled out then I would very likely preorder this mount. If no changes have been made to the Dec axis then I will have to go into "wait and see" mode....possibly never buying this mount. Again, seems like a simple question to answer....is no one at Celestron reading this Thread?

Quote:

If dissatisfaction with the DEC bearings on the ASGT has been made known to Celestron then it is likely that they have done something to address it in the AVX and we should judge that something by whether it is successful or not, rather than preemptively declaring anything except our personal favorite solution to be unacceptable. Ken




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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5629719 - 01/18/13 11:12 AM

I'll have mine today. I'll post YouTube videos hopefully by early Saturday.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5629903 - 01/18/13 12:51 PM

Quote:


I've been noodling some ways to add a support plate to the pier adapter I have because I honestly can't see using the ASGT any more now that I have the AVX! In fact for what I do I don't need a CGEM any more either since the AVX can do much of what I might use the CGEM for and my CGE can do the rest but better and garage space is at a premium. But that is me and my personal situation, I am NOT trying to claim that the AVX obsoletes the CGEM!





Funny you mention that...! Last night I had my C11 up on my CGEM. I realized last night that I just wasn't having fun with either of them. It was more frustration and anger than enjoyment. Frustration because it takes me up to 5 trips to setup the CGEM whereas with the CG5 it takes 2. Frustration because cooling the C11 means I have to sit out in front of my house doing nothing for an hour+ (can't leave it alone) and even then I am dealing with cooling issues through the night. Anger because it had been a really *BLEEP* week on top of a really *BLEEP* month and I kept having problems with the finderscope keeping alignment with the OTA for some reason.

So I am killing time right now until the freeway's calm down enough that I can drive over to my local shoppe. I will be trading in my C11 and CGEM for something else.

A big part of the reason was what I see here with the VX. My AP loadout is well within the spec of the VX and the improvements in it mean that the CGEM becomes something that is not needed for the AP work I am capable of at this point and for the near to mid term future so the added weight and hassle of setting it up doesn't warrant keeping it for AP.

Since I realized that this should be FUN and not FRUSTRATING and a big part of the frustration was the C11 I realized it too has to go. I may end up with a 8" Edge since I want something that will punch a bit deeper and be good for planetary AP but I am not sure yet.

In terms needing to fabricate something up it shouldn't be too hard or too costly to rejigger a mount plate for it, no? I haven't seen it yet so can't say for sure and (unfortunately) I don't have my own metal working tools so I would have to design it then farm it out but again shouldn't be too much. Or for that matter to fab up something to replace it with something that isn't quite as tall... It's going to be a 1/8" steel tube with collar for the base and a detachable one for the top. Or am I smoking crack?


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5630265 - 01/18/13 05:09 PM

Quote:

I agree Ken, but until someone at Celestron speaks up and states what "that something" is or isn't, we're left in the dark. With statements like "Engineered from the ground up with astroimaging in mind", and "The new Advanced VX mount was specifically designed to provide optimum imaging performance for smaller telescopes" , I would hope that they have done something to the Dec axis which would allow for consistently good guiding performance in the Dec axis.....something the ASGT apparently lacked. I, for one, am not willing to place a preorder for a VX until clarification is forthcoming. If changes have been made and spelled out then I would very likely preorder this mount. If no changes have been made to the Dec axis then I will have to go into "wait and see" mode....possibly never buying this mount. Again, seems like a simple question to answer....is no one at Celestron reading this Thread?

Quote:

If dissatisfaction with the DEC bearings on the ASGT has been made known to Celestron then it is likely that they have done something to address it in the AVX and we should judge that something by whether it is successful or not, rather than preemptively declaring anything except our personal favorite solution to be unacceptable. Ken






Celestron's specification is totally correct. They have addressed the problems with Dec and Ra guiding that were evident on the earlier mounts. They say how - by upgrading the motors and gearboxes, updating the driver software and adding PEC.

It may, or may not, have ball bearings, I don't know. But it doesn't matter. They have solved the guiding issues and that's what is important.

I see this sort of thing at work where people come up with a really complex and difficult solution to what they perceive the problem is. I often find that by drilling down and finding out what the problem really is there's a much simpler way to solve it that's better for the user.

As I've shown this one guides very well. I can't speak for how typical it is but there's no rational reason I can see that Celestron would do anything other that pull some off the production line for the beta testers.

I'm almost certain it's not a Mach1 painted black

Chris


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5630401 - 01/18/13 06:59 PM

Ok all set up and ready to go for tonight. I did an unboxing video and a video with it slewing around. Two parts, each 15 minutes long, It'll take me quite a while to upload them to youtube and for the processing to take place. I'll post links asap. Also I'll get in touch with Ed on Monday and talk about taking this thing apart so I can show what it looks like inside.

P.S. So far I love this mount.

Update: Currently uploading to youtube part 1 of 2. Both broken down into 15 minute pieces. Here is the link for

part 1. http://youtu.be/-L8r7yHmKeU

part 2. on its way... http://youtu.be/5lYRIWdBzSo Give it 50 minutes from this post.

Edited by Whichwayisnorth (01/18/13 08:47 PM)


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5630573 - 01/18/13 08:56 PM

Quote:

If no changes have been made to the Dec axis then I will have to go into "wait and see" mode....possibly never buying this mount. Again, seems like a simple question to answer....is no one at Celestron reading this Thread?




It is your money and you have performance criteria that are important to you so I certainly will not criticize you for being cautious. As Chris said Celestron has spelled out some improvements they made to this mount and Chris is certainly getting good number off his. I'm trying to get some numbers too but being a visual observer I am not exactly familiar with the procedures. One thing is certain, if I can get good numbers it is the mount, not me, that produces the results. Looks like there is at least one more AVX online here already so it shouldn't be too long before those who are interested in performance have the data they need to decide.

I suspect that no one at Celestron is reading this thread and that the advertising copy for the AVX contains all the improvements that have been made to it. But if I ever do get an answer about the bearings I will certainly report it here.

Ken


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hectar
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5630635 - 01/18/13 09:46 PM

Quote:

Ok all set up and ready to go for tonight. I did an unboxing video and a video with it slewing around. Two parts, each 15 minutes long, It'll take me quite a while to upload them to youtube and for the processing to take place. I'll post links asap. Also I'll get in touch with Ed on Monday and talk about taking this thing apart so I can show what it looks like inside.

P.S. So far I love this mount.

Update: Currently uploading to youtube part 1 of 2. Both broken down into 15 minute pieces. Here is the link for

part 1. http://youtu.be/-L8r7yHmKeU

part 2. on its way... http://youtu.be/5lYRIWdBzSo Give it 50 minutes from this post.



Just watched both videos. found them good. I am in market for a new mount and keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks for posting it.

Edited by hectar (01/19/13 09:13 AM)


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zawijava
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5630776 - 01/18/13 11:04 PM

thanks for the videos, looking forward to hearing more! -Tim

Quote:

Ok all set up and ready to go for tonight. I did an unboxing video and a video with it slewing around. Two parts, each 15 minutes long, It'll take me quite a while to upload them to youtube and for the processing to take place. I'll post links asap. Also I'll get in touch with Ed on Monday and talk about taking this thing apart so I can show what it looks like inside.





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Zamboni
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5630862 - 01/19/13 12:12 AM

Quote:

Ok all set up and ready to go for tonight. I did an unboxing video and a video with it slewing around. Two parts, each 15 minutes long, It'll take me quite a while to upload them to youtube and for the processing to take place. I'll post links asap. Also I'll get in touch with Ed on Monday and talk about taking this thing apart so I can show what it looks like inside.

P.S. So far I love this mount.

Update: Currently uploading to youtube part 1 of 2. Both broken down into 15 minute pieces. Here is the link for

part 1. http://youtu.be/-L8r7yHmKeU

part 2. on its way... http://youtu.be/5lYRIWdBzSo Give it 50 minutes from this post.




WAIT WAIT WAIT

So you bought a whole new mount, it arrived today, and you expect to test it tonight as if it will be CLEAR?

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!!


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Zamboni]
      #5630869 - 01/19/13 12:15 AM

Hey! I bought one today too and put it together and got to use the new OTA! It was just down right WIERD! Perhaps it's the Mayan Calendar ending or something!

Here are some images of it:

Side detail view of the Celestron AVX mount. Note the attention to detail with the dec connector being on top and the extra AUX ports and most importantly a REAL on/off switch! Celestron does listen it seems...


This is a *BLEEP* shot of the latitude adjustment scale. What you can't see is that unlike the CG5 you can actually tell where you are on the scale like on the CGEM. Another nice feature that Celestron listened to users on.


Rear view. Note that the knobs holding the OTA on the mount are now much more robust. And... Note that the Index marks are actually visible!


Final detail shot. And an important one. No more loss of alignment due to cord pull! It's a threaded plug just like the CGEM!


And here is the front on the VX...


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Zamboni]
      #5630896 - 01/19/13 12:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Ok all set up and ready to go for tonight. I did an unboxing video and a video with it slewing around. Two parts, each 15 minutes long, It'll take me quite a while to upload them to youtube and for the processing to take place. I'll post links asap. Also I'll get in touch with Ed on Monday and talk about taking this thing apart so I can show what it looks like inside.

P.S. So far I love this mount.

Update: Currently uploading to youtube part 1 of 2. Both broken down into 15 minute pieces. Here is the link for

part 1. http://youtu.be/-L8r7yHmKeU

part 2. on its way... http://youtu.be/5lYRIWdBzSo Give it 50 minutes from this post.




WAIT WAIT WAIT

So you bought a whole new mount, it arrived today, and you expect to test it tonight as if it will be CLEAR?

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!!




Well, there is this moon up and the wind is still sticking around. Oh and the seeing is still kinda bad regardless of what my clear sky chart says below.

But I am happy to report that after 2+4 the go-to's were reasonable. I am simply too tired tonight to press on with drift alignments and PEMPro charts. Maybe tomorrow night. I'll take a nap tomorrow.


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FoxTrot
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5630967 - 01/19/13 01:45 AM

Mike, many thanks for the most informative videos. I had no idea the mount was already selling retail, whoa! I'm not sure if its the right upgrade for me. The major drawcard is that it certainly seems to be a tighter mount all around compared to the standard CG5, and that it maintains the lightweight design. But from first appearances, I'm curious why they have stuck with plastic motor housings and not gone towards something along the lines of say the HEQ5. I guess that they wanted to keep it around the original price point.

Questions:
1) Would you say the stiffness and load carrying capacity is better than the CG5 ? I ask because my the LXD75 can carry a TV NP127is (about 7-8 kgs OTA), but it's not exactly optimal, even after adjusting the slack out of the worm gears.

2) How do the motor housings and worms attach to the axes? Its my big gripe about the LXD75 - they attach via a large single Allen bolt, and boy IMHO its very crude in design and build quality indeed.

Cheers,
Fox


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Stew57
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: FoxTrot]
      #5630988 - 01/19/13 02:21 AM

Looks like the best thing about the VX is Celestron packaged some clear skies with it!

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gmartin02
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Zamboni]
      #5631026 - 01/19/13 04:19 AM

One thing I noticed that no one else has mentioned yet - the dec motor on the AVX does not rotate with the dec axis like on the AS-GT, but is stationary (and smaller than the AS-GT motor housing). Also, it looks like the RA motor & electronics on the AVX are attached much more securely to the mount than on the AS-GT.

Looks like a bunch of good evolutionary changes compared to the AS-GT. I guess its time to shine up my 5 year old AS-GT (which has been a great mount) and trade it up for one of these things. It looks like it would work as a decent imaging mount for my FS-60, MK-67 (for moon & planets), and maybe even my 110ED.

Greg


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5631076 - 01/19/13 05:42 AM

Nice videos Michael.

That's a 10" Meade SCT isn't it? It will be interesting to see how well it carries that much weight.

If you are using the ASCOM driver for guiding you will need to upgrade to version 5.0.30 or better. I've just put this in the files area of the ASCOM-Talk Yahoo group. The earlier versions don't recognise the new mount ID and assume that guiding isn't possible.

With the correct driver it uses the new guide command in the motor controller so doesn't rely on the PC for it's timing.

I had clear skies about a day after the scope arrived, but I'm in the UK and it may have taken a bit longer to arrive


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5631338 - 01/19/13 11:08 AM

Quote:

Nice videos Michael.

That's a 10" Meade SCT isn't it? It will be interesting to see how well it carries that much weight.

If you are using the ASCOM driver for guiding you will need to upgrade to version 5.0.30 or better. I've just put this in the files area of the ASCOM-Talk Yahoo group. The earlier versions don't recognise the new mount ID and assume that guiding isn't possible.

With the correct driver it uses the new guide command in the motor controller so doesn't rely on the PC for it's timing.

I had clear skies about a day after the scope arrived, but I'm in the UK and it may have taken a bit longer to arrive




Thanks for the tip. All I got around to last night was doing the initial alignment, testing pointing out then I spent way too much time collimating my OTA. Which I still need to work on.

The mount seemed to carry the weight really well visually but I haven't tested with a camera yet. I want to re-align tonight, do the polar alignment routine and get my auto guider up and running.


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stryder
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5631835 - 01/19/13 04:23 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but I have an 8SE -- I'm assuming it's got a Vixen dovetail so I should be able to upgrade to that mount down the road right?

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Mkofski
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: stryder]
      #5631998 - 01/19/13 06:41 PM

Yes

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drksky
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5632074 - 01/19/13 07:22 PM

I see notes that people are buying them. Are they actually available at retailers? Last I saw was that delivery was going to be late February.

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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: drksky]
      #5632108 - 01/19/13 07:38 PM

Quote:

I see notes that people are buying them. Are they actually available at retailers? Last I saw was that delivery was going to be late February.




I called up Farah at Woodland Hills Camera and Telescope and I said "hey, that new Celestron Advanced Vx, when can I get one?" and she said "I can ship it out Thursday so you'll have it by the weekend (I am about 50 miles from there)." I said "cool" " she said send me your info via email" I did that. I got it friday.

So to answer your question, YEP. They are available. The Starsense accessory is scheduled for March though.


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5632293 - 01/19/13 10:02 PM

Celestron told me they were planning to have the AVX in stock when the announcement was made. Sounds like the plan worked. Perhaps the February date on the Celestron website indicates that everything they had is already in dealer's hands and once the dealer stock is gone the next shipment will arrive then? I'm just guessing....

Ken


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5632501 - 01/20/13 12:29 AM

Woodland Hills Camera and Telescope is my shop too and Farah is great to work with. So is Kevin. Really knows his stuff. I picked mine up from there as well. I know she has several in the warehouse if someone wants one ASAP.

And to the poster about the 8SE... As long as it's Vixen it will work fine on this mount. And the 8" does very well on it.


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drksky
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5632681 - 01/20/13 06:54 AM

Dang..Woodland Hills must have a direct line to Celestron. Every place else still shows them as Pre-Order.

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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: drksky]
      #5632914 - 01/20/13 10:32 AM

What I am really pleased with is that I heard about the mount and a week later I had one. A week. Not 6 months or a year.

Also I like the fact that it has worked really well so far. My only complaint is, and I may have to do a reset later, the go-to's when doing the 2 initial star alignments were off a lot. It wasn't until I was on the 2nd calibration star that it seemed to understand what it's purpose was. Having said that, the first night it was a lot closer. I've also been building pointing models using The Sky X T-point addon. The new celestron ascom driver that was posted earlier in this thread seems to work great.


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hectar
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5633048 - 01/20/13 11:55 AM

Quote:

..the go-to's when doing the 2 initial star alignments were off a lot. It wasn't until I was on the 2nd calibration star that it seemed to understand what it's purpose was...



Thanks for posting the honest opinion. Any AP done last night??


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Mkofski
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5633098 - 01/20/13 12:21 PM

Michael,

I had a CG5 that did the same thing on the alignment stars. After the alignment was done everything was fine. I guess that everything was fine from the beginning and that was what the alignment stars were for.

Edited by Mkofski (01/20/13 12:22 PM)


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5633239 - 01/20/13 01:33 PM

Quote:

Michael,

I had a CG5 that did the same thing on the alignment stars. After the alignment was done everything was fine. I guess that everything was fine from the beginning and that was what the alignment stars were for.




Well my first night out with it which was Friday night the two first alignment stars were within reason, the first calibration star was very close and the second calibration star was very very very close. I went ahead and did two more because why not?

Last night was different. I set it all back up in a new spot, leveled the tripod, took both caps off the RA and sighted through them and tried to put Polaris kinda in the middle. Just to get a rough PA you understand.

I expect the first alignment star to be off because the mount doesn't have any reason to know where it is. But by the second I expect it to be in the ball park. It wasn't. After the second calibration start it was back to putting them near the center of the eyepiece. Once I did 2+4 I did a polar alignment using the built in routine. I then checked that by doing a quick drift alignment. Sad to say it wasn't very close after all. After fine tuning the drift alignment quite a bit, spending 30 minutes creating a pointing model using SkyX T-point and fighting with my OTA's collimation, focus etc, it was too late for me as I had to get up early. So hopefully tonight I can repeat this whole process a lot faster and have time to take some photos using my dslr with and without guiding. But I also have to get up early tomorrow so I have to do it fast and correct.


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Mkofski
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5633278 - 01/20/13 01:51 PM

Good luck tonight! Looking forward to your results. By the way, I enjoyed your videos. You had a good helper...

Although I'm a happy LX80 user at this point, I'm interested to see how the VX mount works out. It looks like everything that Meade did wrong on their introduction, Celestron did right. Delivery as soon a the announcement was made, a product that seems to work out of the box, etc. It may have not been a coincidence that the mount is currently only available from one dealer and that dealer is close to Celestron. In the event of a problem coping up, returning the mount wouldn't be a major issue. So far, you have to give credit to Celestron.

On the other side, the VX is more of an evolutionary product than the LX80 and I'd expect less problems initially.


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SkipW
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5633380 - 01/20/13 02:56 PM

My CG5 would typically be fairly far off the pair of alignment stars (several degrees - maybe 10 or so), even with reasonably good initial polar alignment, accurate time (and TZ/DST setting) and location, but by the second cal star, it was usually very close. I discovered that if the second cal star wasn't near the center of the FOV, it was better to just cycle power and start over. Probably one of the earlier stars wasn't centered correctly; at any rate, if I kept going, GoTos were significantly less accurate than with a "good" 2+4 alignment and calibration.

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jwheel
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: SkipW]
      #5633421 - 01/20/13 03:27 PM

Looks like a nice mount.

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cherokawa
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: jwheel]
      #5633485 - 01/20/13 04:10 PM

Hi Michael,
I think a number of CGEM owners (amongst others) would be very interested in knowing how the "integer gear ratios" end up affecting PEC. Maybe you already have plans of doing this, but if you can use something like PEMPro to measure out-of-the-box PE and the improvement after PEC propramming, you'd be helping answer many of these questions. Thanks!!

PEMPro has a 60 day free trial - I used it last night to program my CGEM.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cherokawa]
      #5633811 - 01/20/13 07:26 PM

I used PECTool to program the PEC. It's a free download from the Celeston site.

PECTool may need updating to handle the AVX mount, at present it returns a message "Warning: Unknown Model type: 20". It's possible this will affect using PEMPro.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5633877 - 01/20/13 08:19 PM

I think the first star being mis-aligned is due to inaccuracy of the index marks for home position.

I have the same issue with my CGEM - even with a very good polar alignment, when starting up from power off, the first star is usually quite a ways off, but the second one is pretty close to the center of the finder FOV and the succeeding ones are very close to the center of the main scope FOV.


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Orionis91
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5633999 - 01/20/13 09:58 PM

My CG-5 is dead on my targets with a 2+4 alignment.

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Orionis91]
      #5634029 - 01/20/13 10:14 PM

Quote:

My CG-5 is dead on my targets with a 2+4 alignment.




Ayup! The CG5-GT is one of the best deals in the hobby. I use a 10" Meade R and there's three 11lb counterweights on it and it tracks well and the gotos are just fine.

David


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5634088 - 01/20/13 10:45 PM

I had a funny thought.... I was wondering if a replacement motor board could be made (by the NexSXD folks) so that we could drive the AP motors with a Nexstar..

Thing is, the AP motors are totally separate from the motor controller (the GTO CP3) so if we knew the pinout of the AP motors it should be possible to do this.

So we'd get the ASPA and the really good GoTo alignment on an AP mount, in a totally non-destructive way (the worm phase for PEM would be lost though). The Nexstar is that good!


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: drksky]
      #5634173 - 01/20/13 11:47 PM

Quote:

Dang..Woodland Hills must have a direct line to Celestron. Every place else still shows them as Pre-Order.




Farah, the owner, is well known in the community and seems to be very wired in with the major manufacturers. I think it's because she has compromising photos of everyone! Just kidding.

I think it's because she is the kind of person that people just like. She is charming and friendly and really wants to do well by the customer which is what keeps me coming back there and she has a good reputation in the community.

As an example Scott Roberts the CEO of Explore Scientific took the time out of his schedule to fight Los Angeles West Side traffic to drive up to her shop from LAX during his layover on the way to China just to stop by and socialize. Anyone who knows West Side Los Angeles traffic knows what a big deal this is!

Because of that I think she gets first crack at quite a bit of the new kit coming out...


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AlienRatDog
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5634605 - 01/21/13 09:55 AM

Is the new VX mount any quieter??

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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: AlienRatDog]
      #5634918 - 01/21/13 12:57 PM

Much quieter! I had my CG5 and the VX out last night for a comparison I was doing between an 8" Edge HD and my 127mm APO. My CG5 sounds like two cat's having adult relations with each other. My CGEM sounded like it was loudly purring. The VX sounds like it's a smaller version of the purr that the CGEM makes. From what I have found with this mount it is what I would call a CGEM Lite.

Brass tacks it's a lot smoother motion sound and about 1/2 the level of the CG5.

Edited by dr.who (01/21/13 12:58 PM)


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5635180 - 01/21/13 03:13 PM

Just so you know, the AVX has a 144 tooth gear so the worm period is 598.362 seconds.

PECTool handles this with no problem, PEMPro may need a bit of juggling to set the right period. I've let Ray know so.

Chris


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5635273 - 01/21/13 04:10 PM

Have you had any luck with Nexremote?

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cn register 5
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Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5635340 - 01/21/13 04:54 PM

NexRemote works but thinks the mount is a CG5. I didn't spend a lot of time but it did align.

Chris


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davenport
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5635704 - 01/21/13 08:59 PM

Greetings everyone,
Normally I prefer to lurk. But on the bearings issue I just had to set up an account to say something - mostly because I want to refocus the discussion.

Some of you guys are looking at it all backwards. You don't ask yourself "are there bearings" and then from that decided whether or not the mount will perform as you need. Instead you ask whether or not the mount will perform and from that decide whether the price meets that performance spec. Only if the mount fails that performance spec do you then go in and say "would the problem be fixed by adding bearings".

On top of that, a few of the things mentioned in this thread with regards to why you might want (or even require) bearings are completely unrelated. Since I went to the trouble to abandon lurker-dom, I might as well correct those while I am at it.


I saw someone early in this thread saying that they wanted improved PEC.
PEC doesn't work on Dec (at least not on Celestron mounts). Adding bearings to the Dec axis (if indeed they are missing) won't help your PEC (in RA).

Someone talked about "non-smooth" movement in Dec (I can't remember the words he used for "non-smooth".) And they were concerned that this non-smoothness would affect imaging.
Assuming you are polar aligned, DEC doesn't even turn when you are tracking the star - so a lack of perfect "smoothness" is irrelevant for tracking/imaging. (see however, the next item)

The lack of bearings could cause sticking which could lead to problems guiding in Dec.
The Dec axes of the CGEpro and CGEM have bearings and they also have issues guiding in Dec. Clearly, bearings alone are not sufficient to provide good Dec guiding. For that, you need a change to the motor controller firmware/electronics. There is a firmware fix in the works for CGEpro and CGEM. The Advanced VX is said to already have that firmware update! Until someone shows me that the Dec guiding problem present in other Celestron EQ mounts has "jumped the gap" to the AVX (which has new motors, new electronics, and presumably new firmware) I am inclined to give the Celestron engineers efforts the benefit of the doubt. I can understand why buyers will want to wait until others can independently verify this. Hopefully we will see some "guide" results soon.

The unit might wear out if dust got between the sliding surfaces (if there is no bearing).
As a rule I avoid pouring dirt in my mount. No really, I almost never do that. If that isn't possible for you, a good cleaning might be in order once a while. If such wear got really bad, then it might increase the noise from the mount, and it might affect pointing. But it wouldn't affect tracking/imaging unless it got so ridiculously bad that the whole thing was loose. I have never heard of such a thing actually happening. On the other hand I _have_ heard of cases where bearings in telescopes were too soft and so got warped/worn over time (which did screw up tracking in RA). And I have personally used seen bearings (they didn't happen to be in a telescope but a similar appliance) that caused the need for maintenance because the bearings were too hard.


Bearings can be replaced if they wear out, but a worn out slip surface spells the end of the entire mount.
Okay that is pretty much true. I think the motors or the gears would wear out before the slip surface, but suppose the slip surface really was the part that wears out first. How long would it take for that to occur? Should Celestron really design an $800 mount to last forever? I just bought a new cellular phone that cost me almost as much; and it will probably be hopelessly obsolete in less than 3 years. Unless you are tinkering with your mount, I can pretty much guarantee you that your mount will last a lot longer than 3 years.

None of this is to "justify" the failure to include bearings in the Dec axis, if indeed there are none. I am not an ME so I am in position to judge the whether or not this was a mistake. Instead, if this rant had a point at all, it would be that

"The lack of bearings on the DEC axis does not appear to present large problems for the design of a telescope of this caliber. There are much more important things people should be asking about this mount."

What things you ask? Off the top of my head I can think of several?

1. Has the Dec guiding issue really been resolved on this mount?
2. What is the typical hub error?
3. How stiff is this mount?
4. Does it have any vibration resonances?
5. If it binds when it is cold, can I easily adjust this in the field?
6. Will the all new firmware/electronics be compatible with my other hardware/software?
7. What is the raw pointing accuracy?
8. Will a "precise goto" ensure my object in the FoV of my camera?
9. What is the best guiding accuracy that I can expect to achieve?
10. What type of wind gust will the AVX tolerate before imaging is affected?
11. Will my polar alignment degrade if I brush the tripod leg with my sleeve?

Want to see something amazing? NONE of those questions can be answered by the knowledge of whether or not there bearings in the DEC axis. Only if it fails one of those criteria will I ask myself, someone pointlessly, whether or not Celestron could have done it better (at slightly higher cost of cousre) if they had included bearings in the DEC axis.

Until these other questions are answered, I might indeed be reluctant to buy this mount for my own imaging apparatus. And until these other questions are answered, the implementation details of the Dec Axis are of secondary concern (to me).

Dave


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rockethead26
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: davenport]
      #5635719 - 01/21/13 09:07 PM

Dave,

Thanks for the clarification, it was really well stated. Oh yeah, welcome to CN, too.


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FoxTrot
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5636187 - 01/22/13 03:27 AM

Mike, DrWho, see my previous post, but may I ask - do you think the VX's stiffness and load carrying capacity is cut above the old CG5 ? Also, whilst I wouldn't expect you to have pulled the motors apart (... yet), would you say the motor housing and their attachment is better than the LXD75? Thanks, Fox!

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Adam Taylor
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5636647 - 01/22/13 11:02 AM

Can the VX take a 3" Losmandy type dovetail? If not, can the saddle be changed for one that can?

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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: FoxTrot]
      #5636649 - 01/22/13 11:03 AM

I never had a lot of experience with my CG5ASGT. I mean, I had one but only used it a few times with my 80mm refractor. I will say that this Vx mount seems to handle the wind very nice even under heavy load. I've spent the last two nights, with wind, imaging with my dslr and having a pretty good time of it. However I am splitting my time between that mount and another so I haven't been able to do everything yet. I have a bunch of unprocessed raw images I still need to transfer off my laptop and onto my main computer for an easier time with them. I was hoping to be able to post some examples soon but I haven't had the extra time.

I am pleased with the quiet motors, I am pleased with how smooth it seems to operate. The tracking seems to be doing well so far. I am using a guide scope using the ST-4 connection and haven't had any issues. I'd say, based on just a few nights with it, we have a winner here.


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EFT
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5636713 - 01/22/13 11:43 AM

Quote:

I never had a lot of experience with my CG5ASGT. I mean, I had one but only used it a few times with my 80mm refractor. I will say that this Vx mount seems to handle the wind very nice even under heavy load. I've spent the last two nights, with wind, imaging with my dslr and having a pretty good time of it. However I am splitting my time between that mount and another so I haven't been able to do everything yet. I have a bunch of unprocessed raw images I still need to transfer off my laptop and onto my main computer for an easier time with them. I was hoping to be able to post some examples soon but I haven't had the extra time.

I am pleased with the quiet motors, I am pleased with how smooth it seems to operate. The tracking seems to be doing well so far. I am using a guide scope using the ST-4 connection and haven't had any issues. I'd say, based on just a few nights with it, we have a winner here.




How freely do the axes turn with the clutches released?


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: FoxTrot]
      #5636770 - 01/22/13 12:15 PM

Quote:

Mike, DrWho, see my previous post, but may I ask - do you think the VX's stiffness and load carrying capacity is cut above the old CG5 ? Also, whilst I wouldn't expect you to have pulled the motors apart (... yet), would you say the motor housing and their attachment is better than the LXD75? Thanks, Fox!




As to the first part... Yes. By about 5 lbs IME. As in for AP you could go to 18-20 lbs on the mount which would put you in the 60-65% rated weight vs. the 50% that is normally recommended.

For Visual I think it will handle a higher load easier. For example I would regularly use my C11 with the CG5. All up it came in at about 33-34 lbs with the bigger EP's on it and the CG5 would handle it but strain a bit. Based on what I see with the VX it will handle it without strain.

I have never seen an LDX75 so I can't comment on the comparison. What I can say is that this mount has a better... "finish" to how it's put together than the CG5 in terms of housing.


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Adam Taylor]
      #5636775 - 01/22/13 12:20 PM

Quote:

Can the VX take a 3" Losmandy type dovetail? If not, can the saddle be changed for one that can?




No. It's Vixen. And I emailed ADM last night about a similar issue and the response I got from Anthony was the mount head is different than the CG5 ergo it would not. I am sure that he will be getting something rapidly to market since this is supposed to replace the CG5.


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EFT]
      #5636783 - 01/22/13 12:22 PM

Quote:


How freely do the axes turn with the clutches released?




Mine was a bit stiff in Dec but it has smoothed out with a bit of use.


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Adam Taylor
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5637340 - 01/22/13 04:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Can the VX take a 3" Losmandy type dovetail? If not, can the saddle be changed for one that can?




No. It's Vixen. And I emailed ADM last night about a similar issue and the response I got from Anthony was the mount head is different than the CG5 ergo it would not. I am sure that he will be getting something rapidly to market since this is supposed to replace the CG5.




If not, this is a deal breaker for me.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Adam Taylor]
      #5637357 - 01/22/13 05:09 PM

As Dr Who says it's Vixen only. The top seems to be held on with four socket screws and I expect that there will be after market adaptations before long.

Chris


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Adam Taylor]
      #5637579 - 01/22/13 07:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Can the VX take a 3" Losmandy type dovetail? If not, can the saddle be changed for one that can?




No. It's Vixen. And I emailed ADM last night about a similar issue and the response I got from Anthony was the mount head is different than the CG5 ergo it would not. I am sure that he will be getting something rapidly to market since this is supposed to replace the CG5.




If not, this is a deal breaker for me.




I can tell you it's not, so your deal is broken.

Which is not to say that ADM or somebody else won't come out with a replacement saddle...AND there are Vixen - Losmandy adapters out there already that will work.


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5637783 - 01/22/13 09:15 PM

Quote:

AND there are Vixen - Losmandy adapters out there already that will work.




In fact I had enough bits and pieces laying about to put one together without ordering anything! A Losmandy only design would probably be inappropriate for a mount in this size class but a dual Vixen/Losmandy design would have been one way to make a great mount even greater.

Ken


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zehnmm
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Reged: 12/24/07

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5638839 - 01/23/13 12:31 PM

I see that some dealers have this with the 11" OTA. For a totally visual application, do you think this mount can handle the 11" reasonably?

Thanks!


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zehnmm]
      #5638915 - 01/23/13 01:11 PM

i hear of people putting the C11 on a CG-5.. so i guess anything is possible. depends on your definition of reasonable..

personally my C9.25 on CGEM is barely tolerable for visual. Shakes take a couple seconds to damp out after focusing. A motor focuser would be a big help.


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5639055 - 01/23/13 02:58 PM

For what they are worth...

Link to the mount sorta disassembled. At least as much as I could with the tools I had. I need a better spanner wrench.

Click here


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Joe Cipriano
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5639072 - 01/23/13 03:12 PM

Are there any worm adjustment screws? From what little I can see of the worm block in your pics, there aren't any. Same basic design as the CGE - and one of my gripes when I owned one; gapping the worm was a hassle.

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EFT
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5639155 - 01/23/13 04:06 PM

Quote:

For what they are worth...

Link to the mount sorta disassembled. At least as much as I could with the tools I had. I need a better spanner wrench.

Click here




From the pics I would say that it is the same motor but a differnt gearbox, which makes sence with what they are saying. Definitely a different spur gear differential. Unfortunately, they went with more course toothed spur gears similar to what they did in the CGE Pro. There are some advantages to the older fine-toothed spur gears in the CG-5 and CGE mounts but are probably more noticeable in the CGE Pro than in this mount. These courser gears are undoubtably cheaper to manufacture. New motor/worm housings which I suspect have the same 3-bolt adjustment setup as the CG-5 (the CGE was the only mount that had no real means of adjustment). Unfortunately, that motor worm housing is almost certainly cast rather than machined like the old one and that can be problematic. Hopefully the worms stiff have ball bearings. Obviously, the detector for the PEC has been added to the RA motor.

Will have to drill down further to see ring gears and bearings.


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Pak
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EFT]
      #5639192 - 01/23/13 04:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

For what they are worth...

Link to the mount sorta disassembled. At least as much as I could with the tools I had. I need a better spanner wrench.

Click here




From the pics I would say that it is the same motor but a differnt gearbox, which makes sence with what they are saying. Definitely a different spur gear differential. Unfortunately, they went with more course toothed spur gears similar to what they did in the CGE Pro. There are some advantages to the older fine-toothed spur gears in the CG-5 and CGE mounts but are probably more noticeable in the CGE Pro than in this mount. These courser gears are undoubtably cheaper to manufacture. New motor/worm housings which I suspect have the same 3-bolt adjustment setup as the CG-5 (the CGE was the only mount that had no real means of adjustment). Unfortunately, that motor worm housing is almost certainly cast rather than machined like the old one and that can be problematic. Hopefully the worms stiff have ball bearings. Obviously, the detector for the PEC has been added to the RA motor.

Will have to drill down further to see ring gears and bearings.




Well hey, compared with the cheapy plastic slack gap *rap gears we saw in the LX80 for the same price point, I think I'll take this one.


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EFT
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Pak]
      #5639207 - 01/23/13 04:32 PM

Quote:

Well hey, compared with the cheapy plastic slack gap *rap gears we saw in the LX80 for the same price point, I think I'll take this one.




No contest there in my opinion.


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zehnmm
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5639247 - 01/23/13 05:05 PM

Quote:

i hear of people putting the C11 on a CG-5.. so i guess anything is possible. depends on your definition of reasonable..

personally my C9.25 on CGEM is barely tolerable for visual. Shakes take a couple seconds to damp out after focusing. A motor focuser would be a big help.




Thanks. Unless someone advises me otherwise, I am considering a C11 to be too much for this mount nevermind that Celestron is offering such a product.


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zehnmm]
      #5639328 - 01/23/13 06:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i hear of people putting the C11 on a CG-5.. so i guess anything is possible. depends on your definition of reasonable..

personally my C9.25 on CGEM is barely tolerable for visual. Shakes take a couple seconds to damp out after focusing. A motor focuser would be a big help.




Thanks. Unless someone advises me otherwise, I am considering a C11 to be too much for this mount nevermind that Celestron is offering such a product.




Depends on your needs. For visual, the C11 is not too much with the CG5 and likely won't be too much for this mount.


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tjugo
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5639402 - 01/23/13 06:42 PM

I've done it, C11 on a CG5, with good balance and with no wind it works OK for visual. So if the VX is as strong as the old CG5 it will work.

Cheers,

Jose


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zehnmm]
      #5639460 - 01/23/13 07:30 PM

Yes. Get anti vibration pads though and be prepared for some shaking if you have a standard focuser. I ran a C11 on my CG5 without problem but on a hard surface like my driveway I did get a second or so of vibration when I touched the focuser.

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akawaka
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5639532 - 01/23/13 08:31 PM

I'm a little disappointed that I bought a CG5 less than a month ago. This mount seems like it would be a nice compromise between the CG5 and the CGEM.

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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5639541 - 01/23/13 08:39 PM

A SECOND OR TWO OF VIBRATION? Oh noes!

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Brian Risley
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5639608 - 01/23/13 09:47 PM

It least the grease looked good. No Synta Glue on what I could see.
Brian


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FoxTrot
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5640083 - 01/24/13 06:43 AM

Geezez Mike, you're a brave man to take apart a new toy so soon... ;-)

There are a few more nice VX videos on Youtube, posted by Mike Fowler. I must say that the mount has some very neat and thoughtful finishing touches for a "CG5 class" mount. And the sound seems more restrained and less screechy than the LXD75 does. Its a nice contender, for sure! Fox

Quote:

For what they are worth...

Link to the mount sorta disassembled. At least as much as I could with the tools I had. I need a better spanner wrench.

Click here




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Mike X.
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: akawaka]
      #5640334 - 01/24/13 10:16 AM

Quote:

I'm a little disappointed that I bought a CG5 less than a month ago. This mount seems like it would be a nice compromise between the CG5 and the CGEM.




I can imagine, but if it helps i can tell you that still you chose a really good mount for the money and if you treat it well i will serve you really well both in photographic and visual use.


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Brian Risley]
      #5640360 - 01/24/13 10:31 AM

Quote:

It least the grease looked good. No Synta Glue on what I could see.
Brian




The grease you speak of hasn't been used in years AFAIK.


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5640442 - 01/24/13 11:06 AM

Quote:

A SECOND OR TWO OF VIBRATION? Oh noes!




Aye! It's a bloody travesty! It didn't bother me but some folks and something about a pea under N number of mattress's...


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zehnmm
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5640513 - 01/24/13 11:50 AM

"Depends on your needs. For visual, the C11 is not too much with the CG5 and likely won't be too much for this mount."

Hi Rod. Thanks. This might interest me. I have been lurking over at the Mallincam Yahoo forums a bit and I see you have posted there.

Question: Do you think I could "reasonably" use a C11 + CG5/VX mount with a Mallincam setup, like the VSS Color?

Thanks!

Steve


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zehnmm]
      #5640605 - 01/24/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

"Depends on your needs. For visual, the C11 is not too much with the CG5 and likely won't be too much for this mount."

Hi Rod. Thanks. This might interest me. I have been lurking over at the Mallincam Yahoo forums a bit and I see you have posted there.

Question: Do you think I could "reasonably" use a C11 + CG5/VX mount with a Mallincam setup, like the VSS Color?

Thanks!

Steve




You could. You'll be a-running the C11 at f/3.3 or so to accomodate the Mallincam, of course. To be honest, while I often use the C11 with my Xtreme, especially when I am after small galaxies, I think the C8 is really better overall...for the larger stuff and the prettier stuff, anyhow. Its field at f/3.3 is just about freaking perfect for the M-Cam.

If you do use the C11, be aware that, naturally, there are gonna be some gotchas for imaging, even with a Mallincam. You will want vibration supression pads under the tripod feet, avoid wind, and, one thing that can really help, add a larger tripod spreader, one that goes a little further toward stablizing the tripod.


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zehnmm
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5640637 - 01/24/13 01:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"Depends on your needs. For visual, the C11 is not too much with the CG5 and likely won't be too much for this mount."

Hi Rod. Thanks. This might interest me. I have been lurking over at the Mallincam Yahoo forums a bit and I see you have posted there.

Question: Do you think I could "reasonably" use a C11 + CG5/VX mount with a Mallincam setup, like the VSS Color?

Thanks!

Steve




You could. You'll be a-running the C11 at f/3.3 or so to accomodate the Mallincam, of course. To be honest, while I often use the C11 with my Xtreme, especially when I am after small galaxies, I think the C8 is really better overall...for the larger stuff and the prettier stuff, anyhow. Its field at f/3.3 is just about freaking perfect for the M-Cam.

If you do use the C11, be aware that, naturally, there are gonna be some gotchas for imaging, even with a Mallincam. You will want vibration supression pads under the tripod feet, avoid wind, and, one thing that can really help, add a larger tripod spreader, one that goes a little further toward stablizing the tripod.




Thanks much Uncle Rod! Great information. 'Preciate that you took your time to help!

Steve


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zehnmm]
      #5641044 - 01/24/13 04:49 PM

From a look at the two mounts side by side I think that the AVX will carry any load at least as well and the C5 and probably better.

If you find the CG5 impossibly wobbly it's unlikely that you will find that the AVX enough better to be satisfactory but I think you will find it to be better.

Opinions about what counts as rigid or not seem to be far too subjective to be definite.

Chris


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kepler22
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5641423 - 01/24/13 08:37 PM

i dont know why people keep saying this will carry more
than a CG-5 its just a much better CG-5 with way better
motors and a lot more things but the pay load is still
the same 25lbs and thats pushing it bigtime its really
a cgem lite redesign on a CG-5 frame.

about two years ago a celestron engineer told me the
CG-5 was made for the C-6 and C-8 thats why the cgem
was made because of payload peoblems with the C-9
nevermind the C-11 then people started complaining
about payload problems when imaging with the C-11
that why the cgem dx was made this VX mount will
go into the astronomy history books i have no doubt
but to put a C-11 on it just defeats its purpose.


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RTLR 12
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: kepler22]
      #5641539 - 01/24/13 09:28 PM

Payload for the CG-5 is listed at 35lbs and the pay load for the VX is listed at 30lbs.

Stan


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Orionis91
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5641679 - 01/24/13 10:48 PM

The CG-5 was "listed" at 35, however there is nothing about it that makes it carry more than the other CG-5 clones, as they were listed for 30, so the CG-5 really carries 30, although some people, really don't care about what is "listed" heeheheh I have seen some LOADED cg-5s...

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Mike X.
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Orionis91]
      #5641732 - 01/24/13 11:34 PM

35lbs for visual use probably won't break it..but photographically...35lbs is way optimistic for the CG5.Talking about Long exposure.
My opinion from personal experience is that this mount will perform well up to 25-26 lbs maximum and with short OTAs and even better with less weight on it.
Of course that's my opinion only.


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A. Viegas
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Mike X.]
      #5642988 - 01/25/13 05:06 PM

I have had my CG5 with C8 + C80ed+ finder + filter wheel + malincam. Total weight 29 lbs. unguided I could easily do 30 seconds and guided 1-2 mins no problem, 3 mins showed oval stars. So maybe not great if you are trying Ccd or dslr imaging needing +5 mins. But for video astronomy... No problem! Can't beat it if you can buy slightly used less than $500!

Al


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #5643355 - 01/25/13 09:03 PM

The C6R OTAs are terribly nose heavy. As they come from the factory when they are balanced around the DEC axis the eyepiece end has a close encounter with the ground whenever they are pointed near the zenith. Maybe that is not a problem for those who live closer to the equator but here in northern Illinois the ground is very, very cold this time of year. Triple dog dare or not, no one wants to lay on the ground to look through the EP because forget about your tongue, your whole body sticks to the ground in the winter!

The long introduction explains why my C6R has a counterweight on the EP end so it will balance farther forward to keep it far enough above ground level to sit in an observing chair. As a result it clocks in a little heavier than a C11. I have used it for years on my ASGT. People who like a super steady visual mount won't be happy but it works fine on the ASGT for many people's taste. It works better on the AVX. The long tube of the C6R gives it a higher moment of inertia and a longer damping time so the C11 is only going to work better. Ultimately you have to let your own taste in these matters decide. The AVX can sling the weight around without breaking a sweat, it will point it quite accurately, and it settles fast enough to satisfy me.

Ken


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5643432 - 01/25/13 09:47 PM

Since we are talking weight load and since I am getting more into the AP side but do not want to deal with the weight of a CGEM (hence why I bought this mount) would you all mind giving me your thoughts on imaging with an ES 127mm APO on it?

Per the website the ES weighs in with all the accessories on it at 18.5 lbs/8.16 kg and is 41.75/1060mm long. That would be with dew shield, finder/guidescope, and Canon XSi. The XSi is 16 oz and the diagonal that comes with it is close to that and the finder it came with is replaced by a Stellarvue 60mm with SBIG ST-iC but I could save weight by about 2 pounds or so by pulling the dew shield...

Much as like the 80mm APO it just too small for what I want to do...


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5643633 - 01/26/13 12:23 AM

i know someone imaging with the ES127 and a G11. it's not a walk in the park. the issue with the ES127 is that it is long. you'll have a lot of vibrations and it will be very susceptible to wind.

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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5643645 - 01/26/13 12:40 AM

Thank you Orly for the reply.

Good grief! It has problems on a G11?!? That mount is a tank! I think I can tackle the vibration issue via vibration suppression pads but the wind issue is going to depend on what you mean by wind. If it is a case of winds like you find on a prairie plain or on a busy city street with tall buildings funneling it then I am ok since I am in an isolated area in terms of wind most times but if its a gentle breeze or the air displacement as the ground cools I will be toast...

Or am I fooling myself and need to look at a 102mm APO paired with a FR on the C8...?


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5643661 - 01/26/13 12:54 AM

I have no experience with the AVX. My acquiantance is not an experienced imager either (neither am I). I think someone who is experienced with the mount, knows its issues and how to get around them, would get better performance.

I did use an Orion 100ED f/9 on a Vixen GP. That was not a suitable setup.

Here's another. I've revisited my CGEM and have been trying to make it work more precisely. One of the things I did was loosen the worm mesh. This improved the PE slightly and made the mount a lot quieter. But, it also increased the backlash in both axes.

I noticed last night that the wind can cause the scope to move back and forth due to the not-to-tight worm mesh. If you tighten the worm though you will get increased PE, noise, and might burn out your motors or motor board. This was a CGEM with an AT90EDT (which admittedly is heavy, but not as heavy as an ES127).

For these reasons... I would not try imaging with the ES127 on the AVX. I think it's more of a CGEM class tube, and even there would not be trouble-free. I actually think the C8 with a reducer would be a better bet. With the Starizona reducer you're at 1500mm which is a bit more than the ES. But a much shorter tube.


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5643664 - 01/26/13 12:57 AM

All for imaging of course. I think for visual the ES127 would be OK-ish (if the AVX is anything like the Vixen GP, I didn't really enjoy the Orion 100ED on the GP even for visual).

p.s. folks on here might be thinking I'm excessively conservative about mount capacity. But I know people imaging with FSQ-106's and AP130EDF GT's on G11s, Mach1s, and PMXs. That is massive mount overkill by the conventional wisdom, but it pays off in zero subs thrown away and very good tracking even over very long exposures. Much less hair loss all around


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5643689 - 01/26/13 01:29 AM

Cheers Orly, And thank you again.

For what it's worth I use the 127 on the CG5 with ZERO problems for visual and this new mount seems in my limited use of it to be at the mid point between the CGEM and CG5. It glides on the CG5 with no strain at all.

I finally gave up on my CGEM because at the end of the day it was just too darn heavy and too many trips to get setup for the majority of the times I had time to image since said time was very limited and I didn't want to spend it setting up and tearing down. With this mount and the CG5 I can carry the entire primary setup out in one trip with only a follow on or two for misc. gear

I knew going in that I was facing a trade off by giving up on the CGEM but I don't think it was a bad choice. I gave the 80mm a try but like I said in my mind it was going to end up being ultimately too wide for what I wanted to shoot. There are only so many times you can take a photo of Orion or M31.

Ideally I would like a 700 FL 102mm APO like the one I sold (STUPID STUPID ME!) and then the SCT with the reducer at 1500 (by the way the one from Starizona won't work it's for standard C8's not the Edge) and ultimately the SCT at f/10 2032 for truly deep shots but there are no 102's out there in the price range I can afford at f/7 and there won't be for at least a couple of months.

So I was hoping to see if I could get the 127mm (also a great FL at 900ish) to fly on this mount...

Oh and I am not worried about having to toss some subs if I have to.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5643818 - 01/26/13 05:27 AM

I'm thinking of getting a 6" GSO RC for my AVX. It's a bit bigger than the 80mm and is at a price I can afford, even if I have to get a focal reducer - although will probably try a SCT FR and see how it goes.

The RC, with an Atik camera, filter wheel, and ST80 with another Atik camera as a guide scope, and mounting rings should give it a bit of a work out.

Chris

Chris


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George N
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5644346 - 01/26/13 12:49 PM

Quote:

Cheers Orly, And thank you again.

For what it's worth I use the 127 on the CG5 with ZERO problems for visual ......




I use an ES127ED on the CG-5 and have had three rather minor issues:

At times the diagonal hits the tripod legs when the scope points too close to the zenith, and this sometimes happens unfortunately during moving to find the set-up stars. A friend with the same rig solved the problem with a pier extender from Orion, but that adds more weight (and cost).

The mount often stops during a slew…. waits up to 10 seconds, and then continues on to its final position. It sometimes does this *twice* before getting to the right spot. It never does this with less weight.

There is a little more shake during focus than I’d like, even with vibration pads under it.

On the other hand, I have successfully done deep sky imaging by limiting my exposures to 30 seconds (no guiding). I find that using a lit crosshair eyepiece to center stars during set-up and polar alignment improves slewing and tracking accuracy.

Of course putting the ES127 on my Mountain Instruments MI-250 is an entirely different world, but that can mean taking that beast to star parties, when I’m already dealing with a 20-inch Dob and the refractor is “just my secondary scope”.


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: George N]
      #5644395 - 01/26/13 01:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Cheers Orly, And thank you again.

For what it's worth I use the 127 on the CG5 with ZERO problems for visual ......




I use an ES127ED on the CG-5 and have had three rather minor issues:

At times the diagonal hits the tripod legs when the scope points too close to the zenith, and this sometimes happens unfortunately during moving to find the set-up stars. A friend with the same rig solved the problem with a pier extender from Orion, but that adds more weight (and cost).





I apologize George I should have also put in that I have it on the pier as well. It does add weight to the tripod but not the mount and really not that much and the cost was about $80 if I remember right. I had the same problem as well as needing to almost lay down when things were at zenith.

Quote:


The mount often stops during a slew…. waits up to 10 seconds, and then continues on to its final position. It sometimes does this *twice* before getting to the right spot. It never does this with less weight.





Now that is interesting! And sounds like a possible problem with the mount... I have never seen this happen even with my all up 34 lbs Celestron C11 on it...

Quote:


There is a little more shake during focus than I’d like, even with vibration pads under it.





Oh. That would be a problem. I was hoping the pads would take care of that. Thank you.

And thank you for the post.


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landshark99
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5645235 - 01/26/13 10:42 PM

Which Orion pier the skyview pro or atlas and does it need to be modified to use with the VX

Edited by landshark99 (01/26/13 11:31 PM)


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: landshark99]
      #5645272 - 01/26/13 11:18 PM

well of course with 30 second subs a lot can be forgiven

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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5645282 - 01/26/13 11:23 PM

Skyview pro is what I use and it will not work with the VX. The base on the mount is now different on the VX than the CG5 with the base being wider which in theory means more stability.

Orly- Sure . But I am aiming for 5 minute subs or greater as I plan to do narrow band...


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landshark99
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5645289 - 01/26/13 11:36 PM

Thanks,so at this point there does not seem to be a pier option for the VX

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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: landshark99]
      #5645362 - 01/27/13 01:34 AM

Unfortunately no mate. Unless you want to have one fabricated you are going to be out of luck. I am thinking about it but not too much at this point because I still have my CG5 so there isn't much point to it.

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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5645483 - 01/27/13 04:58 AM Attachment (204 downloads)

I've done three minute exposures with the AVX with no problems. I can see no reason why it could not do 5 minutes or more.

I've attached an image, this was about an hour of 3 minute exposures. I've had to crop it to get it below the CN size limits. I'm not a good astrophotographer (as this shows), it was stacked using deep sky stacker and some light curves applied, that's it.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5645495 - 01/27/13 05:14 AM

Chris, what scope? if it's a C8 or similar that's fine, that scope has a much shorter moment arm than the ES127.

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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5645504 - 01/27/13 05:27 AM

Oynx 80EDF and a ST80 mounted side by side on a massive Al plate. It's reasonable heavy, especially once two ccd cameras are added.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5645527 - 01/27/13 06:29 AM

ahhh... there's the thing. an ED80 is quite in a different class from an ES127... although its an SBS with a heavy plate, the moment is still fairly concentrated near the scope axes.

not like the ES127 which is a triplet ( = heavy cell ) at the end of a 1-meter long tube.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5645617 - 01/27/13 08:42 AM

Just send me the ES127 and I'll try it and let you know

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5645831 - 01/27/13 11:07 AM

it's not mine

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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5645842 - 01/27/13 11:15 AM

Sure Chris. No problem! Right after you send over $1,600 US... Seriously thank you though for the image. I am not so much worried now about the weight it is sounding more like it's going to be a problem with vibration than weight due to size of tube. Looks like the only way to find out is to just bloody well man up and try it!

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bunyon
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: dr.who]
      #5646539 - 01/27/13 05:51 PM

The image is nice. The main question I have is whether or not the declination axis on the vx has less (or no) stiction/backlash trouble relative to the cg5. Those of you with the mount, can you comment on that?

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tiptip
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5647257 - 01/28/13 12:34 AM

For anyone looking to buy the advanced VX mount, check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T03G0DZMJ9E

We need more reviews and videos about it.


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Ray Gralak
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5647622 - 01/28/13 09:06 AM

Quote:

Just so you know, the AVX has a 144 tooth gear so the worm period is 598.362 seconds.

PECTool handles this with no problem, PEMPro may need a bit of juggling to set the right period. I've let Ray know so.

Chris




The latest build of PEMPro V2 (Build 131) now supports the AVX. Anyone who wants to try it just use the Check for Updates feature in PEMPro's help menu.

-Ray


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zawijava
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5647810 - 01/28/13 10:59 AM

I can say this Paul, I contacted Celestron Tech Support on Jan 14th 2013 and asked for clarification regarding the VX Dec Axis design, bearings or no bearings(?). After 4-5 days of no response I sent a followup email that got their attention. Their response: "Thank you for contacting Celestron Technical Services. I am sorry that it is taking a little longer than anticipated for a response. I have sent an email out to our engineering staff regarding your inquiry. We have not been given the full details of this product yet, so I am waiting on a response from our engineering team. Thank you for your patience." That was on Jan 18th....still nothing

I'm not that impressed at this point

Quote:

The image is nice. The main question I have is whether or not the declination axis on the vx has less (or no) stiction/backlash trouble relative to the cg5. Those of you with the mount, can you comment on that?




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bunyon
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5647850 - 01/28/13 11:15 AM

Well, I don't really care if it has bearings, no bearings or little magical leprechauns inside it. I just want to know if it moves better in Dec than the CG5.

I really like the CG5 and have had a lot of (for me) success with it. The ONLY thing I don't like about it is the Declination axis. It moves terribly and is essentially useless in guiding. By polar aligning carefully, I can avoid needing to guide in Dec. I would be interested in changing mounts if, and only if, I get the same performance in all other areas but can turn my PhD guiding Declination axis back on.

I am surprised you aren't getting faster feedback from them.


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zawijava
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5647972 - 01/28/13 12:06 PM

FWIW I sent another email to Celestron Tech Support a sort while ago, it prompted an almost immediate response:

Hello Tim,

I am just as disappointed as you are. Unfortunately, it also looks like the new mounts also do not have bearings in the DEC axis. Again a apologize for such a long delay.

Best regards,

[name removed]

Celestron Technical Services Representative


Quote:

Well, I don't really care if it has bearings, no bearings or little magical leprechauns inside it. I just want to know if it moves better in Dec than the CG5. I am surprised you aren't getting faster feedback from them.




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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: zawijava]
      #5648559 - 01/28/13 03:58 PM

I posted an image of a PHD graph on this thread. It's back a bit, about page 5 I think. It shows a consistent PEC error with a variation of a fraction of a pixel. I'm able to get nice images with round stars, I posted an image of M33 a bit back. I've never managed to get such good guiding with so little effort.

I think that Celestron have delivered what they say they have; improved Ra and Dec guiding with better motors, gearboxes and drive software.

Chris


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bunyon
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5648594 - 01/28/13 04:11 PM

Chris, I missed the graph, thanks.

Did you find that that was consistent over time? Generally, I found that with the CG5 it would be cool in Dec for a few minutes and then swing wildly off and not come back. You haven't observed that with the VX?


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dr.who
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5648706 - 01/28/13 04:57 PM

Do keep in mind folks that Celestron (and others) are still dealing with the after Christmas n00b support process so they are pretty swamped. This is from a couple of people at their HQ when I drove over to deal with a problem with my C11 about 2 weeks ago. So phone's get answered first then emails. Call them if you want to talk to them ASAP.

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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5648708 - 01/28/13 04:58 PM

It continued until it got cloudy or I got bored or had to pack up, over an hour in some cases.

The weather has been appalling in the UK and it's been a struggle getting any imaging time at all.

The bottom line is that this is the easiest and most successful guiding set up I've had.

Chris


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bunyon
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5648716 - 01/28/13 05:01 PM

That's great to hear! Thanks. I never had the Dec axis on the CG5 guide for more than 10 minutes or so - and that is with polar alignment that, after the Dec guiding was switched off, allowed 2 minute exposures. Definitely wouldn't have gone an hour.

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EManT2200
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5649017 - 01/28/13 07:22 PM

Does anyone know if the AVX is designed to accept a polar scope, perhaps a CG-5 polar scope ?

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nebultick
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EManT2200]
      #5649157 - 01/28/13 08:14 PM

I was just wondering the same thing, I have a vixen sp polar scope would it fit. I want a goto system that will work for AP that's cheap this seems like it could fit the bill.

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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: nebultick]
      #5649169 - 01/28/13 08:20 PM

Why mess with a polar scope when you've got AllStar?

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bunyon
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5649226 - 01/28/13 08:46 PM

A polar scope is easier and faster. And, in my hands, as accurate. Neither preclude a drift alignment. Is it supposed to?

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5649361 - 01/28/13 10:11 PM

Quote:

A polar scope is easier and faster. And, in my hands, as accurate. Neither preclude a drift alignment. Is it supposed to?




My experience is that if you do a couple of iterations of the All Star alignment routine, you don't need to do a drift alignment. It works very well.

David


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5649758 - 01/29/13 06:52 AM

Quote:

A polar scope is easier and faster. And, in my hands, as accurate. Neither preclude a drift alignment. Is it supposed to?




Not my experience. My experience is that the AllStar is considerably more accurate than the polar scope--in anyone's hands.

And you don't have to scrunch down and get close and personal with a polar scope.

If the VX polar scope/housing are improved from the CG5, it could be OK, but my guess is AllStar will still be more accurate and easier.

Edited by rmollise (01/29/13 06:54 AM)


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5649765 - 01/29/13 07:01 AM

I suppose I should re-engage efforts to get AS to work. I tried it a number of times over the first few weeks I had the mount and while it wasn't terrible, it wasn't great. I suppose balanced against 25+ years of polar aligning an SP through a polar scope, a few weeks isn't much time.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5649864 - 01/29/13 08:47 AM

An ASPA is only as good as your initial alignment. Don't skimp there.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Stew57]
      #5649872 - 01/29/13 08:53 AM

This is off-topic at this point, I think, but my experience was, I'd do a polar alignment with the polar scope and be very close. I'd then do an ASPA and be a little closer or a little further, depending. Either way, I inevitably had to do a drift alignment. I figure that if I can get as close with the scope, that is, for me, a couple of minutes, maybe less, then do the drift align. The only thing the ASPA did was take up some time between scope and drift.

I can get close enough with the scope alone to do 2-3 minute subs at 400mm with no drift in Dec. I only do a drift align if I image at 1200mm.

I completely agree that if one can do an ASPA and not then do a drift alignment that that would be a huge benefit. I'll spend a moonlit night soon trying to figure out where I'm going wrong with the ASPA.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Edited by bunyon (01/29/13 08:55 AM)


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5649941 - 01/29/13 09:56 AM

The ASPA is simply awesome. Depending on where I set up on my property I don't always have a view of Polaris. With the ASPA, light pollution becomes more limiting for me than my CG5 subs.

It's worth time getting it to work!

Best,

George


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: ghataa]
      #5649946 - 01/29/13 09:58 AM

agreed. aspa is the killer feature of nexstar, along with the multiple star pointing model.

me, i don't get to see polaris at all - i'm at 1.37 degrees north latitude. so aspa is pretty much mandatory, and better than guess-timating with a compass and level, and then doing a lengthy drift align (which is what i do with my other mounts).


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5649953 - 01/29/13 10:01 AM

Quote:

This is off-topic at this point, I think, but my experience was, I'd do a polar alignment with the polar scope and be very close. I'd then do an ASPA and be a little closer or a little further, depending. Either way, I inevitably had to do a drift alignment.




Unless you've also done a 2+4 star alignment before the ASPA, then the ASPA can't possibly work correctly. An initial polar alignment with your polar scope is fine, if you want to take the time & effort to do it, but it must be followed immediately with the 2+4 alignment THEN the ASPA which will get you closer to polar alignment than the polar scope.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: DaveJ]
      #5649996 - 01/29/13 10:26 AM

Dave that may be it. I don't do 2+4 - I just do the 2 star alignment. I'll do the full 2+4 next time out before trying ASPA. Thanks.

But my larger point is this: all that aligning and getting the computer stuff takes me far longer than sighting Polaris through the polar scope and making the necessary and trivial adjustments to go from Polaris to the pole.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: bunyon]
      #5650162 - 01/29/13 12:03 PM

A 2 + 4 star alignment followed by an "All Star" polar alignment takes less than 10 minutes. The "All Star" take less than 10 seconds.

Stan


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5650623 - 01/29/13 03:47 PM

I'd have to demolish my house to see Polaris.

I'm not sure that a full 2+4 alignment is needed but if you do a 2* alignment use a star on the same side of the meridian as the alignment stars.

Chris


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DaveJ
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5650958 - 01/29/13 07:05 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure that a full 2+4 alignment is needed but if you do a 2* alignment use a star on the same side of the meridian as the alignment stars.




No, a 2+4 is required FIRST to give the mount the information it needs to build an accurate sky model in order to know the cone error. The cone error computed from the sky model is necessary for an accurate ASPA.


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: DaveJ]
      #5651134 - 01/29/13 08:44 PM

i dont think you can even do an ASPA unless you do a 2+4... the menu option doesn't become available until enough stars have been added to the model.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5651182 - 01/29/13 09:16 PM

I am in a balcony type situation and my view is limited to the east.

I do an accurate 2-star alignment only, and ASPA works fine with good results as long as the star is near the celestial equator and the meridian.


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Ken Hutchinson
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: EManT2200]
      #5651427 - 01/29/13 11:55 PM

Quote:

Does anyone know if the AVX is designed to accept a polar scope, perhaps a CG-5 polar scope ?




I don't have one so all I can say is probably. The polar axis is hollow and the non-polar end is threaded. I take the caps off, center Polaris in the hole, and I am done. The only time I do an All Star is when I am testing for Celestron. You do not have to do a 2+4 to do a polar alignment. I never do more than 2+3 and I think you can do a polar with a 2+0 because I think the polar error is pulled from the initial two star alignment. I've never done any testing to see if the polar alignment is improved by adding calibration stars. Goto performance is, of course, but the polar alignment is based on a sync to the alignment star and I don't know if the polar alignment is affected by the general goto performance. It could be, I just don't know.

Ken


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cn register 5
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Ken Hutchinson]
      #5651577 - 01/30/13 03:26 AM

From a quick test the polar align option is available after a 2* alignment, the ASPA option is active and can be done.

At least one calib star is required to get the cone error but that's not the same as the polar align error.

After all the fork mounts only have 2* with no option of adding calibration stars and they can do ASPA.

Of course more stars should give a more accurate alignment but that's not the same as it being essential.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5651580 - 01/30/13 03:32 AM

thanks Chris. i will have to revisit that menu structure again..

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5651727 - 01/30/13 07:43 AM

I don't know the details of this mount, but I do know some things about how the calibration affects AllStar. A key point is that if a mount is ever calibrated with a 2+n alignment - that calibration will overwrite the previous one. If you just do a 2-star alignment, it will use the calibration info from the previous session - but that info will be old and possibly stale. A key issue is if this mount has index switches like a cge, or just index marks. In order for the calibration to be reusable, the index marks would need to be set very accurately.

In short, the AllStar polar alignment accuracy is dependent on the calibration accuracy and there would likely be a win with a fresh 2+4 alignment. 2+1 alignments are probably much less accurate than 2+3, and may even be worse than doing a simple 2-star alignment and relying on old 2+4 calibration data.

So - this is somewhat convoluted, but these are some of the factors at work. You should be able to tell something about the expected AllStar accuracy based on the GoTo accuracy using the different methods.

Frank


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: freestar8n]
      #5651805 - 01/30/13 08:45 AM

It really doesn't take that long to do a 2+4, so you may as well do it and get a good polar alignment along with a good pointing model.

David


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5651812 - 01/30/13 08:51 AM

David, I appreciate that for many it doesn't take long. For me it takes much longer (okay, minutes) than using the polar scope and, again, in my hands, didn't get better accuracy. I'm completely willing to believe that is user error. I have been polar aligning Super Polaris and later CG5 mounts with the scope since 1983. I gave it a half dozen tries and a few weeks with ASPA.

As for pointing accuracy, I don't use the Goto. I only upgraded from the SP so that I had an autoguide port.

I'm old is what I'm saying.


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WadeH237
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: freestar8n]
      #5651892 - 01/30/13 09:37 AM

Quote:

If you just do a 2-star alignment, it will use the calibration info from the previous session - but that info will be old and possibly stale. A key issue is if this mount has index switches like a cge, or just index marks. In order for the calibration to be reusable, the index marks would need to be set very accurately.




This would be true if NexStar actually had a pointing model...but it doesn't.

The 2 alignment stars orient the mount to the sky. The calibration stars are used to determine cone error, which is a single value that represents orthogonality error. In an ideal world, a single calibration star would be sufficient. In practice, adding calibration stars just refines the single cone error value by averaging the results.

Since orthogonality error is determined by the physical difference between the scope's axis and mount's axis, it only changes if you physically change or move the scope relative to the mount.

There is no need to redo the calibration stars if you have not removed the OTA since the last calibration.

I routinely do a 2+4 alignment when I first set up the mount. And then if I power cycle without removing the OTA, I just power up and do a 2 star alignment with no calibration.


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freestar8n
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5651970 - 01/30/13 10:18 AM

Quote:

This would be true if NexStar actually had a pointing model...but it doesn't.




I stand by my story. The 2+4 does more than just cone error, and a key item overlooked is the declination offset - which is tied to the index accuracy. For some reason people focus on cone and orthogonality - while the dec. offset is critical to a good alignment and benefits from the additional calibration stars.

Even if you don't move the mount - if there is a slight change in the dec. offset, it can have a big effect on both pointing and ASPA.

Doing a fresh 2+4, as suggested above, takes care of all these concerns, and doesn't take too long.

Frank


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WadeH237
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: freestar8n]
      #5652227 - 01/30/13 12:30 PM

When I've queried Celestron (and folks familiar with the NexStar code), they have told me that the calibration only addresses cone error. If you have any better source of information, I would welcome clarification.

Also, my own anecdotal experience (since NexStar 4.0 was released) matches my assertion that calibration only needs to be done after removing/installing the OTA. For example, skipping calibration after setting up the mount and OTA freqently results in poor pointing performance. Skipping calibration after power cycling, etc. without removing the OTA never results in poor pointing performance. This is true on both my CGEs and my CG5s, so I have examples both with and without home switches.

I will note that my information applies to the NexStar 4.x hand controller. The NexStar+ controller that ships with the VX has more capabilities (perhaps even to include a real pointing model someday), but I didn't think that the current version of the firmware takes advantage of that.


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freestar8n
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5652254 - 01/30/13 12:48 PM

Again, I stand by my story. Any pointing system I know of, including a formal mount model, includes a term representing the dec. offset - and it is hard to get accurately from only a few stars. For some reason, this value is overlooked and people focus on Cone error. But right next to Cone error in the NexStar menu, is the declination offset. There is also RA offset, but it is less critical. If you want good pointing - you need both cone and dec. offset to be accurate. Try changing the dec. offset by 0.5 degrees...

The CGE has switches to mark the dec. offset - and they are very repeatable. I don't know what the VX has - which is why I mentioned it. If it has manual alignment marks to set the axes - they should be done with care so the dec. offset from the previous calibration is accurate.

Frank


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WadeH237
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: freestar8n]
      #5652280 - 01/30/13 01:02 PM

Interesting.

It should be simple enough to test on a CG5. You could do a 2+4 alignment, then power off the mount. Release the clutches and move the dec axis 30 degrees or so from the index mark. Finally, start up the mount, do a 2 star alignment with no calibration and then test pointing accuracy.

I will try this when I get a chance. Unfortunately, I'm not expecting clear skies any time in the next month or two (gotta like that Seattle overcast). And when I do get a clear night, I have a new AP1600 that needs first light - and that one is my priority.

If anyone else wants to try it, it would be interesting to see the result.


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5652321 - 01/30/13 01:24 PM

Not sure what not starting from the marks, which are only there do give the mount a start position reference--it has no switches--will do. But I can tell you the calibration stars make a considerable difference in go-to accuracy. Whether this is "always" or "only when you remove/replace OTA" depends on the particular mount and OTA. With an SCT on a mount that's used portably, the answer is "always."

Edited by rmollise (01/30/13 03:13 PM)


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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5652338 - 01/30/13 01:33 PM

The dec ofset is to get the initial stars closer. Once the model is mazde it has no relevance. The calibration (which is actually just one as the 4 are averaged together) will make a big difference as the mount WILL have cone error.

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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Stew57]
      #5652443 - 01/30/13 02:21 PM

Thanks for the input Rod and Mark.

My suggested test is a response to Frank's assertion that the dec offset is both set by calibration and important to goto.

His statements do not match what I've been told and observed, at least for the CGE and CG5. I am curious to see if it's possible to demonstrate that the calibration affects more than just cone error.

I am planning on trying it myself to satisfy my curiosity. But like I said, it probably won't be any time soon. If anyone else has an interest, it could be something to try.

Understanding how these mounts actually work seems like a good thing.


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freestar8n
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Stew57]
      #5653588 - 01/31/13 03:58 AM

Quote:

The dec ofset is to get the initial stars closer. Once the model is mazde it has no relevance. The calibration (which is actually just one as the 4 are averaged together) will make a big difference as the mount WILL have cone error.




I actually disagree with this assessment. The dec. offset is very important because if it is wrong, the error in dec. couples into the measurement of RA - and both are wrong. On the other hand, an error in the RA index does not couple into dec., so it is less critical. The dec. error causes the measured separation of two stars to be way off - which would make the two-star alignment very unhappy. And the calibration stars don't act as a single star - they sample the error around the sky just like a more elaborate mount model.

On the topic of how to get best ASPA with this mount - if it doesn't have index switches I would align it to the marks carefully, and for best results I would use a fresh 2+3 or 2+4. If you don't want to take much time - it may be better to use a 2-star alignment that relies on a prior 2+4, rather than a fresh 2+1, which may be inaccurate because it didn't sample enough across the sky.

Frank


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rmollise
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: freestar8n]
      #5653742 - 01/31/13 07:37 AM

The marks give a starting position. BUT...it doesn't even matter what that position is _as long as you use it every time_ you can make your marks wherever you want them.

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DaveJ
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: rmollise]
      #5653788 - 01/31/13 08:27 AM

Quote:

The marks give a starting position. BUT...it doesn't even matter what that position is _as long as you use it every time_ you can make your marks wherever you want them.




+1 to that, Unc! I've proven that with my CGEM DX - both in RA and DEC.


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Stew57
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: DaveJ]
      #5654240 - 01/31/13 12:30 PM

According to Celestron engineer the calibration are averaged together to give one value.

Quote;
That said, the last 4 points in a 2+4 alignment each measure cone error against the "backdrop" of the two star alignment. In that sense, this is really just a 3 point alignment with the last point being an average of 4 measurements. Why would the 4 measurements of the cone error vary? One cause is mount flexure as the OP eluded to. In principle you could use some of the extra data points in the 2+4 to back out the mount flexure terms. The legacy handcontrol did not have the computational prowess, the code space, or even sufficient RAM to do that kind of computation. The NS+ has enough of all three (I think) to do that. Look for something like this to be available in the future.
End quote

I was the original poster and I was questioning the ability of calibration stars to cancel out mount flexure.


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freestar8n
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: Stew57]
      #5654567 - 01/31/13 03:42 PM

I think I saw that posting somewhere else on CN but I don't remember if I commented. Well I have a different take on the question, but feel free to ignore it.

Although the 2+4 doesn't have an explicit model for flexure and atmospheric refraction, it does accomodate more parameters than just cone, and a key one is the declination offset. The resulting pointing allows some "mush" and distortion across the sky to help reduce the error with the 4 stars. For my c11 on cge, and including stars down low and refracted, there would have to be some "mush" in the pointing to result in the 3-5' all sky accuracy that can be achieved. I have never seen a good write up of this stuff, but I studied it in detail some time ago.

So - I think there is already some accomodation for non-rigidity and refraction in the model, and it does very well with just 6 stars. I expect that when the new stuff comes out, with more horsepower, more stars, and an explicit model - it will do even better.

Frank


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186vett
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Re: Celestron VX mount new [Re: freestar8n]
      #5655356 - 01/31/13 11:55 PM

Just looking for someone with real experience re: the new Celestron VX.
Thanks Everyone-Jerry


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