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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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korborh
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/29/11

Loc: Arizona
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announce new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5626459 - 01/16/13 04:01 PM

Quote:

But it doesn't matter! I've produced hundreds of publication quality, perfectly guided photos with an RCX 12" that has a corrected PE of about 10".




What is the average achievable star FWHM in arc-seconds in long-exp (10+ min) *RAW* subs (calibrated/linear-stretched only)? That would be needed for proper quantification and comparison of the telescope system. Are these available to peruse?


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: korborh]
      #5626589 - 01/16/13 05:02 PM

Quote:

Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.



The specs say +/- 1" which means that the guiding error is more or less 1" or you could say that RMS is around 1".
Also Jason said that the maximum (not RMS) guiding error was 1.5".


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Alph]
      #5626780 - 01/16/13 06:46 PM

There are two issues here:

(1) Does the mount do what the spec says? The original was nowhere close; the new one appears to be smack on it. This was my main care-about with this system, and the one which really had to be fixed.

(2) Is the performance a good deal for the money/ a good match for the payload, or whatnot. The 90 lb. capacity leads to the conclusion it could carry some scopes with really long focal lengths, so it's definitely possible for tracking to get challenged. There are other mount options, different levels of performance at different prices, capacities, and so on, but that's really another subject entirely, and not the one which has people tuning into this thread.

I'd say for all intents and purposes the LX850 is what it is claimed to be. There may be some issues found by folks like WhichWayIsNorth, but I'd anticipate those are probably going to be more like typical teething, which kind of never ends for telescope mounts.

If someone wants to discuss mount performance further, it sounds like a bunch of owners are about to have something to play with. If one wants to go further with the performance envelope, I'm sure more data will be coming.

-Rich


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: korborh]
      #5626873 - 01/16/13 07:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

1.5" with guiding?

That seems incredibly.. high for a mount of this dollar value.




Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.




my thoughts exactly.. since my mach1 does 0.35" - 0.6" guided easily.

on the other hand... if it can do 1.5" guided with say a 70lb load... then it would blow away the Mach1 since the Mach1 can't carry that much..

and it would challenge the AP900 and PMX (at least payload-wise), at a (slightly) lower price. If I were in that price bracket though I'd still go for the AP or Bisque offerings..


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Griffin!
sage


Reged: 09/12/10

Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5626904 - 01/16/13 08:04 PM

Well, with the new pricing it would be significantly cheaper than a PMX. For the price of just the PMX mount head you can get the LX850 (with tripod, guiding, etc) and the 12" f/8 OTA.

Now, do I think it'll perform the same as a PMX? No. But I think if it peforms as spec'd it'll be a great value.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627017 - 01/16/13 09:02 PM

Time out- AP's idea of capacity is more conservative than just about anyone's. When they say 45, yeah, you can do that, and with a really long focal length.

There's more to see happen, here.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

1.5" with guiding?

That seems incredibly.. high for a mount of this dollar value.




Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.




my thoughts exactly.. since my mach1 does 0.35" - 0.6" guided easily.

on the other hand... if it can do 1.5" guided with say a 70lb load... then it would blow away the Mach1 since the Mach1 can't carry that much..

and it would challenge the AP900 and PMX (at least payload-wise), at a (slightly) lower price. If I were in that price bracket though I'd still go for the AP or Bisque offerings..




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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5627256 - 01/17/13 12:02 AM

That's why I said 70lb. Instead of Meade's 90lb claim...

Heck if the LX850 can do that 1" RMS guiding with a 14" OTA then it would definitely beat a Mach1. Not - quite - as precise, but much higher capacity.

Now compared to a PMX.....

Hmm... I see the new pricing is now $6k. Much more sane. 1000 more than the CGE Pro but with the nifty built in guider.

I can now see the market for this. Someone who wants G11 class precision, AP900/PMX capacity, but can't spend 8000. Might work.

A bit cheaper and less precise than the Mach1, but more capacity. For the money though a used Tak NJP or AP900 CP2 would buy better precision for the same or less price...


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Griffin!
sage


Reged: 09/12/10

Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627267 - 01/17/13 12:13 AM

It's now $5,999 for the mount and $8,999 for mount + 12" ota.

The PMX price I got was from OPT for $8,995


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orlyandico
Postmaster
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced *DELETED* new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627268 - 01/17/13 12:13 AM

Post deleted by orlyandico

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orlyandico
Postmaster
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627272 - 01/17/13 12:17 AM

You're right... PMX is 9k. Must have had a brain fart. Thought it was 8k. And that's without tripod.

Well at least Meade is now competing with Losmandy instead of AP. More achievable target.

AP seems to be improving their spec. My 2012 mach1 has a raw PE below 3" peak to peak. Its gotten so that PEC isn't really needed. But.. It doesn't have the capacity of this Meade. I think a C11 is the max I'd put on it.

If Jason's figure of 1" RMS guiding is with a 12" or 14" then I think we have a decent offering here. Not a slam dunk - the CGE Pro and Titan are in this price range and capacity - but a credible offering.

Not something that could be said about the 800...


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627298 - 01/17/13 12:35 AM

The Mach 1 can do 45 lbs. I do admit the c11 is about he right looking size.

-Rich


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5627305 - 01/17/13 12:45 AM

Rich,
I've had a C9.25 on my Mach1 and it is not giving 0.35" RMS anymore - more like 0.9" RMS. Admittedly on a night when I was losing the guide star half the time. And I was massively unbalanced (couldn't lower the weights enough because they'd strike the tripod legs - I'm at 1 degree latitude).

Based on that experience, and feedback on the AP forum that the Mach1 can't carry the 40-odd pound AT12N (which has a short focal length) I'm fairly sure the Mach1 would never be able to challenge this Meade in the payload department.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627719 - 01/17/13 09:56 AM

What's the support under your mount? I've been using an eagle pier and its like being mounted to concrete- I've got trying out the Starizona flattener with a conventional c11 in my mid-near term plan with it. SCTs with their mirror flop may not perform all that well. Something like the new TEC RCs or something from RC optical would be needed to test the load limit with a compact form OTA.

I really think Meade rationalized the price on the LX 850, and if it delivers on spec, then someone could predict a rig's performance with the LX 850. And that's all I ever wanted to see. This 90 lb business must have some clarification since long OTA geometries challenge any mount.

-Rich


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Pak
super member
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Reged: 09/15/12

Loc: The Great Arc
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5627916 - 01/17/13 11:43 AM

CGE-PRO -/+5as before PPEC $4999.99
Starsense accessory for wide field pointing and alignment $329.99
GPS $179.99
A/C Adapter $62.95

Now at this point all the LX850 has over it is internal cable routing and built in auto guiding. However as has been discussed quite a bit, the focal length of the guide scope vs. the OTA are at such a disparity that the guiding accuracy is limited. Perhaps if/when Meade offers their F/5 reducer this will be a better idea. But for now you need to have an OAG. The Starlock's claim to fame is that it communicates DIRECTLY with the motor controllers which is supposed to somehow improve tracking. I am not convinced there is enough of an advantage if any at all. Jason Ware straight out said that there was a lot of flexure in the system which is somewhat addressed by putting the Starlock up on top of the OTA but if you are serious about taking long exposures even at F/8, you need to go with an OAG. So at this point we have one company selling a complete package ready to go but with limited capabilities for $6K where if you are serious you need to buy an OAG and guide cam but still leave the Starlock installed for pointing, or you can buy their competitors product for $500.00 less and have that much more to apply towards the guide cam and OAG you'll need anyways. Unless your CCD has it built in of course. Also I want to add something else, Regardless of the system you use, 99% of buyers are still hooking up their laptops to their telescopes. That means you can take advantage of various software such as The Sky which has some very amazing tools built in to it. Also I would like to mention that Celestron's product has been out a few years now. There are adapter plates, drivers, ASCOM, and a large support community already in place. Meade has none of those things.

I think I could give up internal cable routing for everything else. Besides, what I am really looking at is the PMX. I just need twice the cash


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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 02/27/08

Loc: Westminster, CO
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5627945 - 01/17/13 11:55 AM

Quote:

Also I want to add something else, Regardless of the system you use, 99% of buyers are still hooking up their laptops to their telescopes.




I would say that's mostly because they have no choice. It's unlikely that I'd ever do that unless I also had no choice.


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5627956 - 01/17/13 12:01 PM

IMHO you need the laptop anyway to drive your CCD.

the only use case for not bringing a laptop is if you're using a DSLR. which is limited in terms of maximum exposure time because it's not cooled.

if you're taking 4-8 minute DSLR subs, then most of these mounts are massive overkill.


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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
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Reged: 09/11/06

Loc: Bolton, MA
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5628020 - 01/17/13 12:40 PM

Gentle reminder to all... NOT directed at any given poster...

lets try to keep on original topic: the 850... and avoid drifts off topic!

thanks for understanding!


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 11/30/10

Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5628471 - 01/17/13 05:02 PM

Gday Pak

Quote:

The Starlock's claim to fame is that it communicates DIRECTLY with the motor controllers which is supposed to somehow improve tracking.




This has been discussed before, but i would like to reclarify.
After looking at the initial code,
( and assuming it hasnt changed drastically meantime )
the Starlock does NOT directly talk to the motor "controllers",
it just issues standard serial pulseguide commands,
which then get processed as and when possible.
Where the big innovation appears to be is
code has been added to the telescope side
to allow genuine "standalone" two way comms
between the mount and the StarLock lump.
Ie the scope can independently control when and what Starlock does
based on whatever else is happening,
thus avoiding clashes when third party operations interrupt guiding.
I'm sure there are some extra smarts in the StarLock end of things too,
but as to DIRECT motor "control", nup.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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galaxy_jason
Vendor


Reged: 05/22/07

Loc: Texas
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5628935 - 01/17/13 09:39 PM

Quote:

However as has been discussed quite a bit, the focal length of the guide scope vs. the OTA are at such a disparity that the guiding accuracy is limited.

---------------

Jason Ware straight out said that there was a lot of flexure in the system




Not if the sensor on the guide scope has very fine pixels.

I didn't say there was a lot of flexure in the system. I said. I believe there was some mirror movement. The rest of the system looks very good.

As for the mirror movement, I am currently working with a 14" where this has been addressed. Its looking really good.


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galaxy_jason
Vendor


Reged: 05/22/07

Loc: Texas
Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announce new [Re: korborh]
      #5628941 - 01/17/13 09:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But it doesn't matter! I've produced hundreds of publication quality, perfectly guided photos with an RCX 12" that has a corrected PE of about 10".




What is the average achievable star FWHM in arc-seconds in long-exp (10+ min) *RAW* subs (calibrated/linear-stretched only)? That would be needed for proper quantification and comparison of the telescope system. Are these available to peruse?





Meaningless in the seeing we have been having. For example, tonight the best FOCUS (two sec exposure) FWHM I can get is around 3" in a 14" LX850. However, in a ten minute sub that is only growing to about 3.8" with no trailing. Starlock is working as advertised.


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