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EFT
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Loc: Phoenix, AZ
You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced
      #5615221 - 01/10/13 10:41 AM

Surprised no one has posted this yet. Saw this mentioned on the Yahoo Groups: LX850.

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Gargoyle
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5615231 - 01/10/13 10:50 AM

Hhhmmm..... Lotsa stuff happening!

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Thomas Karpf
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Gargoyle]
      #5615268 - 01/10/13 11:07 AM

Yawn. Is there some way to actually read those ads?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


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mclewis1
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #5615459 - 01/10/13 12:47 PM

Wow, a complete re launch under a different model number ... that's a bold move.

I'm surprised this wasn't done for the LX80 first, that to me was much more of a launch disaster. The LX800's original issues didn't appear to be caused by a failure of the core product, rather more of the add on capabilities (although the raw PE numbers did seem a bit high for this class of mount). So I thought they would upgrade the autoguide/auto align hardware and software and carry on since the core product appeared sound.


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ur7x
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5615619 - 01/10/13 02:14 PM

Interesting news... but it generates way more questions than answers...

What does that mean for all of the customers who (for about 6 months now) have been waiting for a "fixed" 800? Are they going to be replaced with a "new" 850?

How long before the LX80 becomes the LX85? And what happens to those unfortunate owners?

What about the long delayed LX600? Is that now going to be a 650?

And why the odd way of announcing this? There is little to no news about this a Meade.com? The next 10-Q form is due in the next couple of days... Interesting timing.


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Griffin!
sage


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: ur7x]
      #5615636 - 01/10/13 02:24 PM

This looks more like an over zealous dealer posting before Meade was ready for a public announcement. I guess we'll see what happens.

EDIT:

Well, it looks like some more info has been posted:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5615608/page...

Edited by Griffin! (01/10/13 02:30 PM)


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EFT
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Griffin!]
      #5615697 - 01/10/13 03:03 PM

Supposedly, it will be in the next issue of S&T which means that the ad was purchased several months ago.

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belgrade
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: ur7x]
      #5615722 - 01/10/13 03:21 PM

"Existing backorders will be converted to the new items." So, yes, whoever preordered (and paid, of course) for the LX800 should be getting LX850. This cannot be read differently - or they should fire their lawyers.

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Geo.
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5615733 - 01/10/13 03:28 PM

Well, unless someone injects money into Meade or they had a great Christmas this can't go on for long. The burn rate is just too high. Lost almost $1.5 million last FY. Under a million in credit and less than a million in cash.

The move to sell OTAs again probably reflects a need to raise cash as the buyers aren't there for the new mounts once the back orders are filled.

I find it interesting that Meade claims the advanced user products are more profitable than the department store stuff due to the high return rate.


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bilgebayModerator
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Geo.]
      #5615746 - 01/10/13 03:40 PM

I don't think I will ever trust that company and buy any mounts from them.

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Orionis91
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5615798 - 01/10/13 04:06 PM

Hope this one works for Meade, I don't think anyone should throw in the towel for this one, who KNOWS whats going to happen.

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Jared
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Orionis91]
      #5615852 - 01/10/13 04:38 PM

I hope so, too. Meade just cancelled their prior factoring agreement and setup a new one. They immediately sold all their eligible receivables--$1.6M in total. I hope they aren't completely out of cash.

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Lane
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Orionis91]
      #5615855 - 01/10/13 04:41 PM

I waited and waited for an LX80, but the reports from those who got them were to discouraging, so I bought a TREX instead. I don't even waste time looking at their adds any more.

I feel sorry for Meade, I really wanted them to succeed. My brother is still using the LX200 8" I gave him in 2009, bought back when the LX200 first came out so its very old and not a single problem ever. Why can't they build them like that now?


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ur7x
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: belgrade]
      #5617624 - 01/11/13 05:25 PM

Quote:

"Existing backorders will be converted to the new items." So, yes, whoever preordered (and paid, of course) for the LX800 should be getting LX850. This cannot be read differently - or they should fire their lawyers.




A pre-order is completely different then someone with a completed order that was subsequently recalled.

The note says nothing to people with 6 month old LX800's at Meade waiting to be repaired. Those are NOT "pre-orders"... those are completed orders.

It was nicely "lawyered" in my opinion. The recalled, are still in no-man's land as per that announcement.


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Starhawk
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: ur7x]
      #5617636 - 01/11/13 05:35 PM

I'm wondering if the LX800s will be converted to LX850s and reissued. I can't imaging Meade would chuck that much hardware. I'm very interested in learning what they tell existing owners who had their mounts recalled.

I'm also interested in what they give as the tracking specs, now. When Jason was still talking to us, he was giving about 16 seconds peak to peak and 5-6 guided. Of course, if they shift the price point away from the Mach 1 GTO's, this would be less of a big deal.

-Rich


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ur7x
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Geo.]
      #5617651 - 01/11/13 05:45 PM

By Wednesday we should see last quarter's Form 10-Q. (It is normally released between Jan 13 and 17.) In that legal document we will see how likely any of this is to happen.

There are almost always better percentage margins with high end equipment over Costco "toys" But chasing after the big bucks at the expense of the volume sellers is not without risk, especially when the high-end "money makers" are all in "indefinite" recall purgatory.


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: ur7x]
      #5617672 - 01/11/13 05:56 PM

Only 15 posts so far? I expected at least 15 pages by now.

Just dropped in to check my PM's and saw this post. Just an FYI, Meade was supposed to announce them on the 15th but it looks like the cat is out of the bag.

I happen to have one that I got on the 4th and have been doing a little last minute testing. I am trying to find bugs that need to be addressed before it starts shipping back out.

I am heading out this weekend to some dark skies and put it through its paces.

Praying for great weather.


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Jared
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5617746 - 01/11/13 06:33 PM

Can't wait to hear your results, Michael!

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Griffin!
sage


Reged: 09/12/10

Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Jared]
      #5617863 - 01/11/13 07:37 PM

After talking with someone more in-the-know than me, it sounds like all recall owners will be getting the LX850.

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belgrade
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Griffin!]
      #5618004 - 01/11/13 08:54 PM

They don't have any LX800 units with no issues to ship. The ones which are (supposedly) issue free will be labeled LX850 and sent as replacements/order fillers. It's not only the right thing to do but also the only one they can do. I guess they don't expect to go bust - yet. Sarcasm aside, I truly wish Meade well.

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n2dpsky
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Griffin!]
      #5618235 - 01/11/13 11:47 PM

Cool. Thanks for the update, Griffin.

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Starhawk
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5618288 - 01/12/13 12:25 AM

Seriously- make it do it all so there aren't surprises when they ship.

Good hunting,

-Rich


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Hilmi
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5618354 - 01/12/13 01:08 AM

Best of luck I'm glad you got a replacement for your mount, and I am 100% confident that this round of Beta testing will be far more thorough.

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sphelps
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5618368 - 01/12/13 01:27 AM

Michael,
I hope you will be posting some videos of your results. I will be buying a 12" version of the LX850 based on it's performance and from what I have read, it should be impressive. I wish you clear skies.


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mmalik
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5618439 - 01/12/13 04:11 AM

Let another year of (just) glittery ads begin...

Pun aside, for once I would like Meade to release a product first and advertise later. Was a big advocate of LX800 when it was first announced; now it sends a chill down my spine.


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EFT
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: mmalik]
      #5618706 - 01/12/13 09:59 AM

That's the problem with print advertising in the big magazines. With a 3 to 4 month lead time for ads, it would be hard to announce new products without predicting when they will be ready for release well ahead of time. That may be OK for a small, simple product, but it's a real challenge for something like a new mount. You would never convince the marketing people to release a new major product and then wait 4 months before it appears in the major print publications since they are the only true "advertizing" available for astro gear.

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Scotty H
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5618780 - 01/12/13 10:44 AM

Ah excellent. I know this is the you can start speculating thread, however i would really like to see some cold hard facts from the people who have there mounts back, ie. Michael etc..... before the fore and against arguments start all over again.......please?

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Lee Jay
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Scotty H]
      #5619143 - 01/12/13 02:08 PM

So when is the LX80 going to get fixed?

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EFT
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5619163 - 01/12/13 02:23 PM

Quote:

So when is the LX80 going to get fixed?




I think that may be a much harder sell. I am surprised at the number of people who still seem to be willing to buy it, while I don't think anyone would have bought the former LX800.


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Lee Jay
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5619366 - 01/12/13 04:15 PM

So, I see Meade has removed all mention of the f/5 reducer from their site. Am I missing it or is it on indefinite delay?

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Dixie
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5619471 - 01/12/13 05:18 PM

So basically a LX850 is a LX800 that works? Hmm. Wouldn't have me rushing to buy a Meade.

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Mkofski
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Dixie]
      #5619496 - 01/12/13 05:30 PM

Quote:

So basically a LX850 is a LX800 that works? Hmm. Wouldn't have me rushing to buy a Meade.




Yes, but if the 850 works to the original specs it could be a very nice mount.


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Bill Dean
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5619731 - 01/12/13 07:50 PM

Reducer is still mentioned for the LX600 series SCs. Presumably they're the same OTAs so maybe there's less going on than what you're reading into the more recent LX850 info.

Clear skies,
Bill


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ur7x
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5619982 - 01/12/13 11:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So basically a LX850 is a LX800 that works? Hmm. Wouldn't have me rushing to buy a Meade.




Yes, but if the 850 works to the original specs it could be a very nice mount.




So would the LX80


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: ur7x]
      #5619999 - 01/12/13 11:18 PM

Kind of reminds me of the LXD-55.. it wasn't long until the improved version, the LXD-75 was introduced.

Jon


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mmalik
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5624031 - 01/15/13 09:09 AM

Some developments here.... Thx

Note: More info here....

Edited by mmalik (01/15/13 06:43 PM)


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Starhawk
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: mmalik]
      #5624086 - 01/15/13 09:50 AM

I wonder if David will take down those old LX800 threads he made sticky, now.

From a post on Cats, the LX 850s coming back to owners are rebuilt LX 800s. If we can't get better data, the tracking on the rebuild is 16 seconds rms, so it's half of what it was. Jason reported 5"-6" guided. But then he got mad when asked about testing to the spec and that was the end of the thread. It appears the claimed performance is now 1 arc second if atmospheric conditions allow. Given you can get an AP Mach 1 GTO for the cost of this thing, it's hard to reconcile this, so please post carefully gathered tracking data.

-Rich


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ahopp
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5624151 - 01/15/13 10:39 AM

Rick,

The recalled scopes will not be rebuilt LX800s, they will be factory line produced LX850s. I confirmed this with VP Support.

Tony


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galaxy_jason
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5624231 - 01/15/13 11:33 AM

Quote:

Jason reported 5"-6" guided. But then he got mad when asked about testing to the spec and that was the end of the thread.
-Rich




Totally incorrect. The TRAINED PE is 4-5". Starlock's guiding is to spec.


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jgraham
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5624923 - 01/15/13 06:19 PM

Meade announced on the Meade 4M site that all recalled LX800s would be returned as LX850s.

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EFT
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: jgraham]
      #5624957 - 01/15/13 06:47 PM

A very interesting discussion on Meade financial condition was just deleted from the Cats & Casses group. Apparently such as discussion will not be allowed so if anyone wants to continue it elsewhere there is now a Yahoo Group for the LX850: LX850 Yahoo Group. Please post there to avoid any TOS violations.

For those who are uninterested in the Meade LX850 discussions, there is a special key on your keyboard that will help you.



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cn register 5
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Reged: 12/26/12

Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5624984 - 01/15/13 07:09 PM

Is that peak to peak or RMS?

I've just measured an unguided but PEC applied error of +- 2.6 arc sec RMS on the new AVX mount and wonder if that is about the same.

Chris


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mmalik
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5624988 - 01/15/13 07:09 PM

Quote:

A very interesting discussion on Meade financial condition was just deleted from the Cats & Casses group. Apparently such as discussion will not be allowed so if anyone wants to continue it elsewhere there is now a Yahoo Group for the LX850: LX850 Yahoo Group. Please post there to avoid any TOS violations.




Quote:

@Alph: That's a lot of hooey. Enough of that ranting. It's high time to lock up this thread which should have been moved to another forum anyway. Moderators, are you sleeping? What does this thread have to do with discussing Cats & Casses?.




I tend to disagree that the post that was deleted was in violation; it just could have been moved to another forum. Let's not promote that kind of censorship; Mr. Alph being overzealous there in my opinion. Thx


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5625000 - 01/15/13 07:19 PM

Yah there is already an 850 group going. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lx850users

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EFT
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: mmalik]
      #5625010 - 01/15/13 07:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A very interesting discussion on Meade financial condition was just deleted from the Cats & Casses group. Apparently such as discussion will not be allowed so if anyone wants to continue it elsewhere there is now a Yahoo Group for the LX850: LX850 Yahoo Group. Please post there to avoid any TOS violations.




Quote:

@Alph: That's a lot of hooey. Enough of that ranting. It's high time to lock up this thread which should have been moved to another forum anyway. Moderators, are you sleeping? What does this thread have to do with discussing Cats & Casses?.




I tend to disagree that the post that was deleted was in violation; it could just have been just moved to another forum. Let's not promote that kind of censorship; Mr. Alph being overzealous there in my opinion. Thx




mmalik,

I agree with you. If you see it elsewhere, let us know. I did find the information and the interpretation of it interesting and useful. But I figured it would be good to have another outlet if necessary. We will see.

Now how did you know who the image was for.


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A. Viegas
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: EFT]
      #5625054 - 01/15/13 07:44 PM

Actually, I think it quite important to speculate when Meade wil file for chapter 11 bankruptcy... First, there will be some great deals on OTAs and equipment... Next, it will become important for Meade customers to understand how and where they will need to find support for their products... Finally, will a white knight or potential acquirer care to attempt a rescue...

Having reviewed the financials it is plainly obvious that Meade has at best one or two quarters left...

Al


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Starhawk
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #5625086 - 01/15/13 07:59 PM

Dude, stick to mounts or this whole thread is gone.

To Jason- OK- so what's the deal with the listed spec at 1" tracking? I rechecked the Meade web page, and there it was, plain as day, and it is repeated for the LX850:

http://meade.com/lx850/specifications

So, I'll go ahead and ask the insufferably stupid question: What gives? Why do you say 4"-5" is the same as the spec? I'm obviously missing something.

-Rich


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austin.grant
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5625098 - 01/15/13 08:07 PM

Rich,

I think Jason reported the Tracking with PEC at 4"-5". He says the Guiding is to spec, which is listed on Meade's site as +/- 1". I think you are trying to apply guiding specs to tracking.


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Starhawk
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: austin.grant]
      #5625110 - 01/15/13 08:15 PM

Was that the intent?

Something like 16" raw, 4-5" PEC, 1" guided?

-Rich


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austin.grant
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5625133 - 01/15/13 08:29 PM

Don't know, I'm just helping you interpret the data. Whether you like the method, if it guides at +/- 1" then it meets spec. I'd never buy it, given the multitude of truly excellent mounts in that category, but that's a different thread.

Edited by austin.grant (01/15/13 08:30 PM)


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5625352 - 01/15/13 10:32 PM

Quote:

Was that the intent?

Something like 16" raw, 4-5" PEC, 1" guided?

-Rich




Yes, Maybe I wasn't clear. I do the PEMPro testing with the Starlock off. PEMPro can bring the raw PE down to 4-5" p-p. Turn on Starlock guiding and I see at worst a two pixel error in exposures which is about 1.5 arc seconds.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5625438 - 01/15/13 11:24 PM

Jason, thank you for the clarification.

They really did it, then. That's very encouraging.

-Rich


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orlyandico
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5625627 - 01/16/13 03:59 AM

1.5" with guiding?

That seems incredibly.. high for a mount of this dollar value.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5625784 - 01/16/13 08:50 AM

That's what I was thinking... isn't the CGE Pro +/-3 native these days? With PEC alone I thought they were down around that guided Meade range.

Clear skies,


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announce new [Re: Gord]
      #5625816 - 01/16/13 09:09 AM

That's with Starlock guiding. Its limited by the focal length of the Starlock and the resolution of the guide chip. Off axis guiding would do a bit better.

PEC may improve a bit with direct upload from PEMPro, right now I am training using playback which has a minimum pulse resolution of 10ms.

But it doesn't matter! I've produced hundreds of publication quality, perfectly guided photos with an RCX 12" that has a corrected PE of about 10". It's 6.5 minute worm cycle. The worst case drift is easily removed by guiding.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5625856 - 01/16/13 09:33 AM

Quote:

I happen to have one that I got on the 4th and have been doing a little last minute testing. I am trying to find bugs that need to be addressed before it starts shipping back out.




Are you their beta tester now; sounding like 'them' ?


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Whichwayisnorth
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: mmalik]
      #5625954 - 01/16/13 10:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I happen to have one that I got on the 4th and have been doing a little last minute testing. I am trying to find bugs that need to be addressed before it starts shipping back out.




Are you their beta tester now; sounding like 'them' ?




Jason is their beta tester. All I am supposed to do is pretend to be a new user with an out of box experience. No tips or tricks, no directions on how to test or what to test. I am supposed to use it as I normally would and if I see things that are not right, let Meade know ASAP. I know that sounds like Beta testing and I guess if you are interpreting it strictly I guess I am. Like a computer game before it hits store shelves I am playing it and giving feedback.

However I am definitely not one of THEM.

Edit: I hadn't seen this before but it looks like Meade made the official announcement on their page which includes a list of what they have changed from the LX800 to the LX850.
http://meade.com/lx850

Edited by Whichwayisnorth (01/16/13 12:09 PM)


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #5626116 - 01/16/13 12:36 PM

Quote:

includes a list of what they have changed from the LX800 to the LX850.



Did they modify/improve the focusing mechanism on their OTAs?


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5626127 - 01/16/13 12:45 PM

Quote:

Dude, stick to mounts or this whole thread is gone.



That's the way to go.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5626443 - 01/16/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

1.5" with guiding?

That seems incredibly.. high for a mount of this dollar value.




Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announce new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5626459 - 01/16/13 04:01 PM

Quote:

But it doesn't matter! I've produced hundreds of publication quality, perfectly guided photos with an RCX 12" that has a corrected PE of about 10".




What is the average achievable star FWHM in arc-seconds in long-exp (10+ min) *RAW* subs (calibrated/linear-stretched only)? That would be needed for proper quantification and comparison of the telescope system. Are these available to peruse?


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: korborh]
      #5626589 - 01/16/13 05:02 PM

Quote:

Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.



The specs say +/- 1" which means that the guiding error is more or less 1" or you could say that RMS is around 1".
Also Jason said that the maximum (not RMS) guiding error was 1.5".


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Alph]
      #5626780 - 01/16/13 06:46 PM

There are two issues here:

(1) Does the mount do what the spec says? The original was nowhere close; the new one appears to be smack on it. This was my main care-about with this system, and the one which really had to be fixed.

(2) Is the performance a good deal for the money/ a good match for the payload, or whatnot. The 90 lb. capacity leads to the conclusion it could carry some scopes with really long focal lengths, so it's definitely possible for tracking to get challenged. There are other mount options, different levels of performance at different prices, capacities, and so on, but that's really another subject entirely, and not the one which has people tuning into this thread.

I'd say for all intents and purposes the LX850 is what it is claimed to be. There may be some issues found by folks like WhichWayIsNorth, but I'd anticipate those are probably going to be more like typical teething, which kind of never ends for telescope mounts.

If someone wants to discuss mount performance further, it sounds like a bunch of owners are about to have something to play with. If one wants to go further with the performance envelope, I'm sure more data will be coming.

-Rich


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: korborh]
      #5626873 - 01/16/13 07:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

1.5" with guiding?

That seems incredibly.. high for a mount of this dollar value.




Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.




my thoughts exactly.. since my mach1 does 0.35" - 0.6" guided easily.

on the other hand... if it can do 1.5" guided with say a 70lb load... then it would blow away the Mach1 since the Mach1 can't carry that much..

and it would challenge the AP900 and PMX (at least payload-wise), at a (slightly) lower price. If I were in that price bracket though I'd still go for the AP or Bisque offerings..


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Griffin!
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5626904 - 01/16/13 08:04 PM

Well, with the new pricing it would be significantly cheaper than a PMX. For the price of just the PMX mount head you can get the LX850 (with tripod, guiding, etc) and the 12" f/8 OTA.

Now, do I think it'll perform the same as a PMX? No. But I think if it peforms as spec'd it'll be a great value.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627017 - 01/16/13 09:02 PM

Time out- AP's idea of capacity is more conservative than just about anyone's. When they say 45, yeah, you can do that, and with a really long focal length.

There's more to see happen, here.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

1.5" with guiding?

That seems incredibly.. high for a mount of this dollar value.




Also, the spec is at 2" so assuming 1.5 is optimistic (otherwise that would be the spec published by Meade).
2" *guiding* is not good at all for a long focal length instrument, especially for a mount priced like this.




my thoughts exactly.. since my mach1 does 0.35" - 0.6" guided easily.

on the other hand... if it can do 1.5" guided with say a 70lb load... then it would blow away the Mach1 since the Mach1 can't carry that much..

and it would challenge the AP900 and PMX (at least payload-wise), at a (slightly) lower price. If I were in that price bracket though I'd still go for the AP or Bisque offerings..




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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5627256 - 01/17/13 12:02 AM

That's why I said 70lb. Instead of Meade's 90lb claim...

Heck if the LX850 can do that 1" RMS guiding with a 14" OTA then it would definitely beat a Mach1. Not - quite - as precise, but much higher capacity.

Now compared to a PMX.....

Hmm... I see the new pricing is now $6k. Much more sane. 1000 more than the CGE Pro but with the nifty built in guider.

I can now see the market for this. Someone who wants G11 class precision, AP900/PMX capacity, but can't spend 8000. Might work.

A bit cheaper and less precise than the Mach1, but more capacity. For the money though a used Tak NJP or AP900 CP2 would buy better precision for the same or less price...


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Griffin!
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627267 - 01/17/13 12:13 AM

It's now $5,999 for the mount and $8,999 for mount + 12" ota.

The PMX price I got was from OPT for $8,995


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orlyandico
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced *DELETED* new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627268 - 01/17/13 12:13 AM

Post deleted by orlyandico

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orlyandico
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627272 - 01/17/13 12:17 AM

You're right... PMX is 9k. Must have had a brain fart. Thought it was 8k. And that's without tripod.

Well at least Meade is now competing with Losmandy instead of AP. More achievable target.

AP seems to be improving their spec. My 2012 mach1 has a raw PE below 3" peak to peak. Its gotten so that PEC isn't really needed. But.. It doesn't have the capacity of this Meade. I think a C11 is the max I'd put on it.

If Jason's figure of 1" RMS guiding is with a 12" or 14" then I think we have a decent offering here. Not a slam dunk - the CGE Pro and Titan are in this price range and capacity - but a credible offering.

Not something that could be said about the 800...


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Starhawk
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627298 - 01/17/13 12:35 AM

The Mach 1 can do 45 lbs. I do admit the c11 is about he right looking size.

-Rich


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5627305 - 01/17/13 12:45 AM

Rich,
I've had a C9.25 on my Mach1 and it is not giving 0.35" RMS anymore - more like 0.9" RMS. Admittedly on a night when I was losing the guide star half the time. And I was massively unbalanced (couldn't lower the weights enough because they'd strike the tripod legs - I'm at 1 degree latitude).

Based on that experience, and feedback on the AP forum that the Mach1 can't carry the 40-odd pound AT12N (which has a short focal length) I'm fairly sure the Mach1 would never be able to challenge this Meade in the payload department.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5627719 - 01/17/13 09:56 AM

What's the support under your mount? I've been using an eagle pier and its like being mounted to concrete- I've got trying out the Starizona flattener with a conventional c11 in my mid-near term plan with it. SCTs with their mirror flop may not perform all that well. Something like the new TEC RCs or something from RC optical would be needed to test the load limit with a compact form OTA.

I really think Meade rationalized the price on the LX 850, and if it delivers on spec, then someone could predict a rig's performance with the LX 850. And that's all I ever wanted to see. This 90 lb business must have some clarification since long OTA geometries challenge any mount.

-Rich


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Pak
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5627916 - 01/17/13 11:43 AM

CGE-PRO -/+5as before PPEC $4999.99
Starsense accessory for wide field pointing and alignment $329.99
GPS $179.99
A/C Adapter $62.95

Now at this point all the LX850 has over it is internal cable routing and built in auto guiding. However as has been discussed quite a bit, the focal length of the guide scope vs. the OTA are at such a disparity that the guiding accuracy is limited. Perhaps if/when Meade offers their F/5 reducer this will be a better idea. But for now you need to have an OAG. The Starlock's claim to fame is that it communicates DIRECTLY with the motor controllers which is supposed to somehow improve tracking. I am not convinced there is enough of an advantage if any at all. Jason Ware straight out said that there was a lot of flexure in the system which is somewhat addressed by putting the Starlock up on top of the OTA but if you are serious about taking long exposures even at F/8, you need to go with an OAG. So at this point we have one company selling a complete package ready to go but with limited capabilities for $6K where if you are serious you need to buy an OAG and guide cam but still leave the Starlock installed for pointing, or you can buy their competitors product for $500.00 less and have that much more to apply towards the guide cam and OAG you'll need anyways. Unless your CCD has it built in of course. Also I want to add something else, Regardless of the system you use, 99% of buyers are still hooking up their laptops to their telescopes. That means you can take advantage of various software such as The Sky which has some very amazing tools built in to it. Also I would like to mention that Celestron's product has been out a few years now. There are adapter plates, drivers, ASCOM, and a large support community already in place. Meade has none of those things.

I think I could give up internal cable routing for everything else. Besides, what I am really looking at is the PMX. I just need twice the cash


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Lee Jay
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5627945 - 01/17/13 11:55 AM

Quote:

Also I want to add something else, Regardless of the system you use, 99% of buyers are still hooking up their laptops to their telescopes.




I would say that's mostly because they have no choice. It's unlikely that I'd ever do that unless I also had no choice.


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orlyandico
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #5627956 - 01/17/13 12:01 PM

IMHO you need the laptop anyway to drive your CCD.

the only use case for not bringing a laptop is if you're using a DSLR. which is limited in terms of maximum exposure time because it's not cooled.

if you're taking 4-8 minute DSLR subs, then most of these mounts are massive overkill.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: orlyandico]
      #5628020 - 01/17/13 12:40 PM

Gentle reminder to all... NOT directed at any given poster...

lets try to keep on original topic: the 850... and avoid drifts off topic!

thanks for understanding!


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OzAndrewJ
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5628471 - 01/17/13 05:02 PM

Gday Pak

Quote:

The Starlock's claim to fame is that it communicates DIRECTLY with the motor controllers which is supposed to somehow improve tracking.




This has been discussed before, but i would like to reclarify.
After looking at the initial code,
( and assuming it hasnt changed drastically meantime )
the Starlock does NOT directly talk to the motor "controllers",
it just issues standard serial pulseguide commands,
which then get processed as and when possible.
Where the big innovation appears to be is
code has been added to the telescope side
to allow genuine "standalone" two way comms
between the mount and the StarLock lump.
Ie the scope can independently control when and what Starlock does
based on whatever else is happening,
thus avoiding clashes when third party operations interrupt guiding.
I'm sure there are some extra smarts in the StarLock end of things too,
but as to DIRECT motor "control", nup.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5628935 - 01/17/13 09:39 PM

Quote:

However as has been discussed quite a bit, the focal length of the guide scope vs. the OTA are at such a disparity that the guiding accuracy is limited.

---------------

Jason Ware straight out said that there was a lot of flexure in the system




Not if the sensor on the guide scope has very fine pixels.

I didn't say there was a lot of flexure in the system. I said. I believe there was some mirror movement. The rest of the system looks very good.

As for the mirror movement, I am currently working with a 14" where this has been addressed. Its looking really good.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announce new [Re: korborh]
      #5628941 - 01/17/13 09:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But it doesn't matter! I've produced hundreds of publication quality, perfectly guided photos with an RCX 12" that has a corrected PE of about 10".




What is the average achievable star FWHM in arc-seconds in long-exp (10+ min) *RAW* subs (calibrated/linear-stretched only)? That would be needed for proper quantification and comparison of the telescope system. Are these available to peruse?





Meaningless in the seeing we have been having. For example, tonight the best FOCUS (two sec exposure) FWHM I can get is around 3" in a 14" LX850. However, in a ten minute sub that is only growing to about 3.8" with no trailing. Starlock is working as advertised.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5628951 - 01/17/13 09:52 PM

Quote:

Gday Pak

After looking at the initial code,





Considerable code changes in various areas since the initial release.


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Pak
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5629013 - 01/17/13 10:28 PM

Sorry Jason I didn't mean to misquote you. I was reading between the lines. Or trying too. I thought you mentioned having the Starlock on the saddle introduced flexure that was addressed by moving the Starlock onto the top of the OTA. It was that to which I was referring.

Quote:

Quote:

However as has been discussed quite a bit, the focal length of the guide scope vs. the OTA are at such a disparity that the guiding accuracy is limited.

---------------

Jason Ware straight out said that there was a lot of flexure in the system




Not if the sensor on the guide scope has very fine pixels.

I didn't say there was a lot of flexure in the system. I said. I believe there was some mirror movement. The rest of the system looks very good.

As for the mirror movement, I am currently working with a 14" where this has been addressed. Its looking really good.




Edited by Pak (01/17/13 10:30 PM)


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OzAndrewJ
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5629047 - 01/17/13 10:47 PM

Gday Jason

Quote:

> Gday Pak

> After looking at the initial code,

Considerable code changes in various areas since the initial release.




Yep, seen some of it
but none of what i have seen so far, ( up to 1.0k ), tells me they have changed all the code to allow StarLock to talk "DIRECTLY" to the motors, which is what i was addressing.
To do that would require a rewrite of Starlocks comms and a complete replacement of the electronics inside the LX850 ( as the LX800 used basically the same cards as the LX200s and hence the motor cards are controlled by the main motherboard ).
I hardly think that change will have happened in the timeframe given.
If you send me a copy of the latest rom, i can check it out fairly quickly.
If not, it wont take long to confirm once the scopes are out in the wild.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: Pak]
      #5629051 - 01/17/13 10:48 PM

Quote:

Sorry Jason I didn't mean to misquote you. I was reading between the lines. Or trying too. I thought you mentioned having the Starlock on the saddle introduced flexure that was addressed by moving the Starlock onto the top of the OTA. It was that to which I was referring.





Good point, thanks. I did move it to the tube. I think it made a bit of difference but I think the majority of the movement I was seeing was mirror. The guys at the factory have compared it in both places and they have not seen much of a difference.


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5629142 - 01/17/13 11:43 PM

Andrew we are on version Z

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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5629148 - 01/17/13 11:49 PM


Latest code version.
14" f8
2845mm f.l.
10 minute sub in HA.
Average to Poor CSC seeing.
800x....

http://galaxyphoto.com/tmp_800/starlock_track1_17.jpg


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5629152 - 01/17/13 11:53 PM

Actually the FWHM is a bit lower than shown. Just realized I forgot to set the image scale for the 14" and check the "arc seconds" box so it was reading in pixels. I think that is just over 2" if I did the math right.

Edited by galaxy_jason (01/18/13 12:16 AM)


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OzAndrewJ
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5629195 - 01/18/13 12:25 AM

Gday Jason

Quote:

Andrew we are on version Z




Damn, i was hoping for version "X"

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia

PS Does hi precision pointing/tracking near Venus work OK ????


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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5629200 - 01/18/13 12:33 AM

We have already been through version X. It had a problem with Uranus. Just kidding.

I haven't tested that but I believe the software keeps track of the planet locations.


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OzAndrewJ
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Reged: 11/30/10

Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: galaxy_jason]
      #5629210 - 01/18/13 12:39 AM

Gday Jason
Quote:

I haven't tested that but I believe the software keeps track of the planet locations.





I saw the new code to exclude the bright planets and moon in 1.0k, but if i read the code correctly, it had used Earths data for Venus, hence my suspicion of if the system worked properly near Venus.
All will come out in the wash

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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n2dpsky
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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5629211 - 01/18/13 12:39 AM

Nice image. Perfectly shaped star, especially for 2800mm fl. Thanks, Jason.

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galaxy_jason
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Reged: 05/22/07

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Re: You can start speculating - New LX850 Announced new [Re: n2dpsky]
      #5629221 - 01/18/13 12:52 AM

2845

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