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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5915577 - 06/11/13 06:04 PM

Quote:

I don't know, after all the complicated gobbledegook (including the fact that Per's mount does some kind of dance, but not which dance - hopefully not Gangnam Style, or I'd have to pass on that mount), it really does turn out to be quite simple:

Guided or unguided - do you get nice small round stars? Any rotation? Trailing? Etc.? If you get great stars, then it works. The longer the subs, the better. If you don't get great stars, it doesn't work.

People can declaim "something is impossible because I say it's impossible," but if you throw up a pre-post picture and the stars look great, those people are just plain wrong. Seriously - if someone says they get 30 minute unguided and there's a picture with nice round tight stars doing that, and they never throw out subs...there is no debate.

So, really: do you get great stars? If you do, then it works, no matter what anyone who doesn't have the mount, never seen the mount says. If you don't, then the mount's not up to spec.

There, simple. Do you get great stars?

At least that's how I pick my mounts,

Paul




I get great stars and the dance is just a buzz back and a buzz forward, not Gangnam Style

My M106 crop above, which is a single sub, has round stars. This forum doesn't allow picture posting to the extent that I am used to or I would post a few examples of unguided imaging from a balcony 14 km from the center of Stockholm (in Sweden, not Wisconsin). But if you do care to click on a link, here are two examples:

http://filer.frejvall.se/M101_v3.jpg

http://filer.frejvall.se/NGC2403_Norrland_edition.jpg

Both are unguided and shot with a not so perfectly collimated 190MN with scratches in the primary mirror (accident during collimation).

Anyway, I am very pleased with the mounts and will most likely get another one after I burn all I have saved up for now on a 29050-based QSI 700 series... Yikes!

/per


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5915646 - 06/11/13 06:55 PM

Those shots look really nice. I'd say your rig is working really well and you're enjoying it. Frankly, I'm just jealous of all the money you good people have to buy these amazing toys.


I really do not understand all the anger and implied cloak and dagger nonsense that certain users seem to push hard every time someone likes their equipment. For God's sake its a freaking equatorial mount, not a nuclear bomb, chill out and go look at some stars or something. Sheesh.


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psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: WesC]
      #5915670 - 06/11/13 07:07 PM

Per - yup, you get nice stars (that's why I mentioned that above), and that's the proof in the pudding (or, if you don't like pudding, just the proof).

Whether people want to guide or unguide, polarscope or not, heavy mount, light mount, those are all personal variables. In the end, do you get great stars? - that's always the one main thing a mount is supposed to do (well, track, but that's one of the best symptoms of great tracking/guiding/modelling).

If someone can get their old 1960's GEM with a "clock drive" all cherried out to get great stars while they're manually guiding with their eye through a finder scope, then bully for them! I'm not going to say anything's wrong with that. It all comes out in the wash. I just don't know why people who've never even seen a piece of equipment are SO SURE that someone who has that piece of equipment, are using that piece of equipment, are getting great stars with that piece of equipment is wrong. It baffles me.

It was like the time when I was younger and I had Ferrari's. I was parked outside a friend's house waiting for them to come out and this guy comes by, looks at the car, then tries to explain to me why it was a waste of money and a hopped up Honda would, and I quote, "kick its *BLEEP*." Of course, he had never even driven a Ferrari. Then my friend, who was a very beautiful actress, came out all dolled up for one of her movie premieres and got into the car. I smiled at the guy, who recognized the actress, and I winked and said: "But can your Honda do that?"

Paul


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coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5915786 - 06/11/13 08:17 PM

Great shots!

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frolinmod
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/06/10

Loc: Southern California
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: coz]
      #5916204 - 06/12/13 01:25 AM

Quote:

It was like the time when I was younger and I had Ferrari's.



Got a speeding ticket in 1975 in a Ferrari Daytona (on loan while the Dino was in the shop) going 165MPH. It was just loafing along like any other car would at 65MPH. Nice car. Spent a lot of time in the shop though. Or at least that's the way I remember it.



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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5916205 - 06/12/13 01:25 AM

Quote:

Now, what was the point of your comment? I don't get it.



No worry. I am sure you will get it one day when you learn more about TPoint.


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: R Botero]
      #5916266 - 06/12/13 02:20 AM

Quote:

Thank you!!! At last some sense to this nonsense of no manual being available anywhere!



The manuals posted on deepspaceproducts website are for the QCI models. Better something than nothing, i guess. I contacted Baader Planetarium back in May 2012 about the user's manual for the HPS model. Here is their response:

Dear Sir,

thanky for the inquiry. We do not offer the manuals in the web to not supply templates for countless
of Chinese how to reformulate their manuals.

Also we do not intend to provide information to all gifted competitors. This market is VERY small - not like
for refrigerators or consumer electronics.

If you were to ask us questions and let us know why you ask and if you ask for yourself or for whomever else,
then we will be thankful for the opportunity to answer them.

Best regards,



Service Team
BAADER PLANETARIUM GMBH


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Alph]
      #5916267 - 06/12/13 02:20 AM

Quote:

Don't worry. I am sure you will get it one day when you learn more about TPoint.




Well, I am not totally in the dark nor in the land of arrogance, so correct me if i am wrong. TPoint improves pointing and polar alignment by modeling the sky the same way that my Model Maker for 10Micron mounts does in cooperation with the firmware in the mount.

The mathematics included in the 10Micron firmware does the same thing as TPoint and the resulting model terms are thus able to affect not only pointing, but also the tracking.

TPoint.
If I use it in the TheSky add-on version it will improve the pointing of GM2000HPS and my NEQ6. Let those two represent two main categories of mounts.

Should my mount be a Bisque mount I also get the additional benefit of improved tracking as Software Bisque has bothered to implement it partly in-mount, or at least somewhere where the application of parameters can reach the behavior of the tracking.

So, TPoint, to which excellence I have have paid my due respect, will do absolutely nothing for me in terms of tracking unless I choose a Bisque mount or desire the perfect polar alignment. I do not ever need pointing accuracy as I only do AP and always use software that plate solve and correct after every slew.

With that I know that I know enough about TPoint, its great flexure modeling features and its shortcomings.

Without any discredit and without anything but admiration for TPoint, I can conclude that I need to learn about as much more about it as Mr Alph needs to know about the dual motor controller advanced fuel injection that I have in my car. This in spite of it being a very interesting system from Bosch that models the engine behavior in a very cool way controlling many parameters and many cylinders.

Oh, and my "I don't get it" comment had absolutely nothing to do with TPoint.

Now, even though I do love the summer time, there are so many things I need to try out and develop further in the AP field, so I find myself longing for the fall... Tonight's minimum sun altitude is a little over -7į, quite enough to read an instruction sheet


All the best,

Per


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R Botero
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/02/09

Loc: Kent, England
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Alph]
      #5916315 - 06/12/13 03:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thank you!!! At last some sense to this nonsense of no manual being available anywhere!



The manuals posted on deepspaceproducts website are for the QCI models. Better something than nothing, i guess.




NO THEY ARE NOT. Did you actually click on the links? There's a picture of the HPS model on the front page of each manual!...
I downloaded the 1000HPS manual from that link yesterday and read it from beginning to end. The way the encoders work is explained in several sections. The manuals are extremely well written by the way.
I don't own an HPS mount but I wanted a particular question answered about its operation and I found it clearly explained in the manual. Maybe you should try reading them?....
If the tone you used to write to Baader is the same you use in these forums, I'm not surprised something got lost in translation.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: R Botero]
      #5916351 - 06/12/13 05:12 AM

Personally, I would find the Baader reply satisfactory. No *BLEEP*, just a straight answer.

I just tried to download a Paramount ME manual and the Bisque site asked for a login name and a password... Also totally acceptable for me.

/p


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5916352 - 06/12/13 05:12 AM

Ah, sensoring! A cool feature!

/p


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vdb
sage


Reged: 12/08/09

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5916406 - 06/12/13 06:41 AM

I think we all can agree that high res encoders are the future ...
But we also see for the last 10 year great results with guiding ...
In the end it's a budget thing. As long as the encoders where not introduced to mask a mechanical and/or guiding issue ;-)
There are also plenty of unguided examples of the PM's without encoders, so getting the model and Polar alignment wright, with active tracking on RA and DEC seem to be of essence.
So to each his own, we made a selection on mechanical/weight capacity/software and today price performance nothing beats a mesu 200 ...
(which can be ordered with or without high res encoders)


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psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: frolinmod]
      #5916667 - 06/12/13 10:36 AM

Quote:


Got a speeding ticket in 1975 in a Ferrari Daytona (on loan while the Dino was in the shop) going 165MPH. It was just loafing along like any other car would at 65MPH. Nice car. Spent a lot of time in the shop though. Or at least that's the way I remember it.






Yeah, those Daytona's were something, but the Dino was maybe the prettiest of the whole lot. I got into the Ferrari's in the 80's when they didn't need mechanics so much (and I had a good mechanic, so it was never, ever a problem). Now, I have a kid, and astro gear. But at least the Italians are big in the beautiful astro gear!

And how could one see the wrong manual online if one looked? I mean, it's right there on the cover of the manual? HPS - right in the picture. Seriously. What's to miss? How could it be a QCI model when it says HPS. In big bold letters. And on the header of every page. Someone needs to apologize for disseminating wrong info on that one. I mean, what's up with that? I get it if you don't want to buy this mount, but really: wrong info? That's kinda low.

Paul


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frolinmod
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/06/10

Loc: Southern California
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5916906 - 06/12/13 12:47 PM

Quote:

I just tried to download a Paramount ME manual and the Bisque site asked for a login name and a password.



To be clear, anyone can freely download the Paramount ME/MX/MEII manuals. All you need to do is create a free account first. No big deal and takes just a few minutes to do. I recommend downloading the latest MX/MEII manual rather than the old ME manual. Much more informative and current. Most of the content applies to the ME as well with very little that doesn't.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: frolinmod]
      #5916969 - 06/12/13 01:17 PM

Frolin,

It was not a complaint from my side All is well!

/p


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5916977 - 06/12/13 01:21 PM

Quote:


Got a speeding ticket in 1975 in a Ferrari Daytona (on loan while the Dino was in the shop) going 165MPH. It was just loafing along like any other car would at 65MPH. Nice car. Spent a lot of time in the shop though. Or at least that's the way I remember it.






Ah, that is good for a 70's car! I'm aiming for above 187 mph when I drive down to Olly Penrice's place in Provence on Friday. Autobahn! Rules!

(187 mph becomes the magic 300 km/h when translated to units that differ from "furlongs per fortnight" and the likes)

/per


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5917001 - 06/12/13 01:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Got a speeding ticket in 1975 in a Ferrari Daytona (on loan while the Dino was in the shop) going 165MPH. It was just loafing along like any other car would at 65MPH. Nice car. Spent a lot of time in the shop though. Or at least that's the way I remember it.






Ah, that is good for a 70's car! I'm aiming for above 187 mph when I drive down to Olly Penrice's place in Provence on Friday. Autobahn! Rules!

(187 mph becomes the magic 300 km/h when translated to units that differ from "furlongs per fortnight" and the likes)

/per




Woof! That's scary fast.


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: EFT]
      #5917027 - 06/12/13 01:46 PM

Care Per, lots of cops theses days on french Autobahn, just keep this for germany...

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc [Re: psandelle]
      #5917047 - 06/12/13 01:57 PM

Quote:

Per - yup, you get nice stars (that's why I mentioned that above), and that's the proof in the pudding (or, if you don't like pudding, just the proof).

Whether people want to guide or unguide, polarscope or not, heavy mount, light mount, those are all personal variables. In the end, do you get great stars? - that's always the one main thing a mount is supposed to do (well, track, but that's one of the best symptoms of great tracking/guiding/modelling).

If someone can get their old 1960's GEM with a "clock drive" all cherried out to get great stars while they're manually guiding with their eye through a finder scope, then bully for them! I'm not going to say anything's wrong with that. It all comes out in the wash. I just don't know why people who've never even seen a piece of equipment are SO SURE that someone who has that piece of equipment, are using that piece of equipment, are getting great stars with that piece of equipment is wrong. It baffles me.

It was like the time when I was younger and I had Ferrari's. I was parked outside a friend's house waiting for them to come out and this guy comes by, looks at the car, then tries to explain to me why it was a waste of money and a hopped up Honda would, and I quote, "kick its *BLEEP*." Of course, he had never even driven a Ferrari. Then my friend, who was a very beautiful actress, came out all dolled up for one of her movie premieres and got into the car. I smiled at the guy, who recognized the actress, and I winked and said: "But can your Honda do that?"

Paul




I agree with you on this. There are definitely different ways to skin the cat, some are just easier than others. It is rarely, if ever, a matter of "you can't do that." I have seen absolutely brilliant images taken with relatively inexpensive equipment, particularly in the hands of naturally talented imagers. Some people do great work with nearly anything. I have some images taken with a CGEM that I blew up to 8 feet tall and they were perfect. Besides the mount being well tuned, the person who took the images is simply a very naturally talented imager and understands the proper match between scope and mount. There are many people who would say that the level of his images are simply not possible on that mount, but they are wrong. At the same time, for many people a lot of benefit is gained and less effort required to get the same results by using better gear in the first place. Even then, it is possible to take poor images with very good gear.

Every time you tell someone that something can't be done, you will find someone who has done it (although some things are ill advised). It's really just a matter of how hard you want to work at it in many cases and how talented you are.

BTW, this is one of the best anecdotes I have read in a while. I enjoyed relating it to some of my family members.


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc [Re: psandelle]
      #5917091 - 06/12/13 02:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Now, what was the point of your comment? I don't get it.





I think it's Precision Mount Envy....




I understand that, I have that too.
To solve it, I have just placed an order *today* for a GM1000HPS. Two weeks delivery time.
I had an AP600EGTO, which I sold intending to buy the Mach1GTO, for the extra load capacity. Then I bumped into the GM1000HPS and was sold on it, everything I always wanted in a mount, except for the weight which is not on par with AP.
Then AP comes with the AP1100, which is an amazing achievement in terms of load/weight. I discarded the Mach1 and my decision become between the 1000HPS and AP1100.
It took me a couple of weeks to confirm my decision on the 1000HPS.
I have read both AP1600 and 1000HPS manuals carefully several times. The HPS manual is very well written and easy to follow. In some parts AP manuals look like guide for dummies, listing obvious unnecessary steps.
Conclusion is HPS is another world. It is everything high-end mounts will be in the future. The AP is really old tech.
Note weight is the most important factor to me, and AP clearly wins there, but everything else comes short to the HPS.

Although I feel like criticizing both companies, 10micron for not improving on the weight and AP for not offering such a brilliant system as HPS, I really have to congratulate both companies for their pieces of art: AP weight and 10micron HPS. These are what other companies will try to copy in the future. Except for ASA but that is another world that does not really fit my needs.

I have to thank the people that have went ahead and have been using this mount with great success in the last few months, but very specially to Per, which is an amazingly knowledgeable guy and HPS master user. I hope 10micron will try to use to use his services to improve HPS software even more.

Pedro


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