Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green GuÖ uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | (show all)
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: EFT]
      #5917097 - 06/12/13 02:25 PM

Famax,

Yep, I already have a "You pay me ninety euros NOW!" in bad french accent ringing in my ears from my honeymoon a few years ago (I should call it "honeyweek" because it was cut short by really poor weather).

The car is supposed to do well over 300 while maintaining a cool 18įC in the cabin with an outside temperature of +55įC. Ferdinand Piech - crazy guy but he pulled it off!

Ed,

I too have seen (and perhaps produced) excellent images shot with half indecent equipment. Maybe it is just the odds of success and the number of bad subs that change with the price of the gear.

I'm sure there is a car just like that in your area that you can have a spin in. They were sold in the US up to and including 2006 - with a speed limiter (and this is where I go "Moaaahahahahaaaa" with reverb).

/per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5917109 - 06/12/13 02:29 PM

Pedro,

You do me too much credit, but thanks for the warm words. You will get a kick out of this for sure. In two weeks time I will be back from my astro trip to Les Granges in Provence and thrilled to hear how you are getting along.

All the best,

Per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: EFT]
      #5917119 - 06/12/13 02:35 PM

Per - take your allergy pills before hitting the Autobahn...one sneeze at that speed, and it's all over!

Ed - yeah, someone can always make something work when they have the talent and knowledge and patience. And, I agree, the "better" the equipment, the easier it is to get it right and repeat getting it right, if someone knows what they're doing, but it isn't necessary. (8 feet - wow!)

Also, warning someone that something might be less efficient (like putting a 14" Edge on a photo tripod and trying to go f/20 with a barlow and taking 10 minute unguided subs) than something else is okay in my book, but coming down like a ton of bricks on good equipment that the person "warning" has never used...I just think it's bad for astronomy. It's tough enough trying to get this stuff to work for veterans, let alone beginners, and being essentially told "you're an idiot if you use that" just seems counter-productive to helping the hobby. I mean, people were down on ASA mounts - why? They're different than what most people are used to, therefore the learning curve might be different and the amount of people who can help might be less, but what's the point of being down on the mount? Makes no sense.

Glad you liked the story. And, for the record, the fastest I ever got in my 8-cylander Ferrari's was 157...on the 10 at 2 am, right after I'd passed a traffic incident where seven cop cars were. I figured: "If the cops are there, they won't be ahead of me." And I took off, but then the 405 snuck up REAL fast, and that was that.

Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5917140 - 06/12/13 02:46 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Paul,

Good point, but they make you drowsy, right? Hmmm... Need to contemplate...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5917179 - 06/12/13 03:12 PM

Quote:

Per - take your allergy pills before hitting the Autobahn...one sneeze at that speed, and it's all over!

Ed - yeah, someone can always make something work when they have the talent and knowledge and patience. And, I agree, the "better" the equipment, the easier it is to get it right and repeat getting it right, if someone knows what they're doing, but it isn't necessary. (8 feet - wow!)

Also, warning someone that something might be less efficient (like putting a 14" Edge on a photo tripod and trying to go f/20 with a barlow and taking 10 minute unguided subs) than something else is okay in my book, but coming down like a ton of bricks on good equipment that the person "warning" has never used...I just think it's bad for astronomy. It's tough enough trying to get this stuff to work for veterans, let alone beginners, and being essentially told "you're an idiot if you use that" just seems counter-productive to helping the hobby. I mean, people were down on ASA mounts - why? They're different than what most people are used to, therefore the learning curve might be different and the amount of people who can help might be less, but what's the point of being down on the mount? Makes no sense.

Glad you liked the story. And, for the record, the fastest I ever got in my 8-cylander Ferrari's was 157...on the 10 at 2 am, right after I'd passed a traffic incident where seven cop cars were. I figured: "If the cops are there, they won't be ahead of me." And I took off, but then the 405 snuck up REAL fast, and that was that.

Paul




I was able to use the 8-foot prints for tradeshow backgrounds. They're great.

Back in my sports car days I passed a cop going the other way when I was doing 145 on a long straight road in the middle of nowhere Nevada. I was darned glad that he didn't have his radar on. But I never had a car as nice as yours. Probably a good thing. Switched from sports cars to Volvos after my second kid and was glad I did when it got totaled 10 months later (not my fault) and have driven them ever since. It's good to drive a tank sometimes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: EFT]
      #5917193 - 06/12/13 03:16 PM

Volvo... Good old Swedish quality, soon to be replaced by Chineese quality... They're good! So why do I drive German cars and use Italian mounts with American cameras? Well, I don't know, do I?

/per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5917201 - 06/12/13 03:20 PM

I switched to Volvos on my kid, too! Fits astro gear better, too, though I always wanted to do an article for Sky & Telescope about traveling over the summer from Star Party to Star Party across the States in a Ferrari.


Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5917229 - 06/12/13 03:39 PM

OK, I'll do one while astro-traveling with a Veyron, then. Germany against Italy, kind of...

/p


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5917238 - 06/12/13 03:41 PM

Per - works for me. Fortunately, there's a lot of red astro gear to match the Ferrari red when the time comes.

Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5917240 - 06/12/13 03:43 PM

Grossly off-topic... It is blue but it is not mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIsao6YG4Zo

/per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5917362 - 06/12/13 05:08 PM

Per - in order to bring it back on topic, we must theorize a mount that does not track, but is attached to a car fast enough, on a road long enough and straight enough, to counter the rotation of the Earth.

There, back on topic.

And thanks for all the info the 10Microns...I didn't know enough about them, though I've looked them over online off-and-on. Up till this point, the ASA mounts were the most exotic of the bunch that I was learning about.

Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: psandelle]
      #5917369 - 06/12/13 05:12 PM

See my avatar

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Stew57]
      #5917416 - 06/12/13 05:43 PM

I knew it! It's old technology already. I'm so behind the times on mount innovation....

Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bratislav
sage


Reged: 09/07/06

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5917712 - 06/12/13 08:57 PM

Quote:

my decision become between the 1000HPS and AP1100.
It took me a couple of weeks to confirm my decision on the 1000HPS.
...
I have read both AP1600 and 1000HPS manuals carefully several times. The HPS manual is very well written and easy to follow. In some parts AP manuals look like guide for dummies, listing obvious unnecessary steps.
Conclusion is HPS is another world. It is everything high-end mounts will be in the future. The AP is really old tech.





Good luck with it. I have no experience with 10micron 1000HPS, but just looking at it, it is obvious to me that 1100 is in completely different class, capacity wise. It will carry your scope way, way easier, smoother, secure and with far greater precision.

I just hope your decision, based on comparing manuals, was wise.

I know I would pick AP1100 in a heartbeat. It is beefy where it counts, and that is by far the most important aspect in an astrophotography mount. All the glitz and software smarts matter exactly zilch when wind buffets start to shake your scope.

I hope one day you will get a chance to set up next to someone with AP1100 (or 1200 or even 900). Grab a counterweight shaft and try to wiggle it. Repeat the same with 1000HPS.
As I said, I haven't even seen a 10micron mount, let alone try it; but I've been in this game long enough to be fairly sure of the outcome. Old technology it might be, but that is what mounts are - old technology. They need to be rigid, precise, stiff, smooth and solid. Yes, software smarts are nice. But mount basics are crucial.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: bratislav]
      #5917824 - 06/12/13 09:59 PM

Quote:

Good luck with it. I have no experience with 10micron 1000HPS, but just looking at it, it is obvious to me that 1100 is in completely different class, capacity wise. It will carry your scope way, way easier, smoother, secure and with far greater precision.

I just hope your decision, based on comparing manuals, was wise.

I know I would pick AP1100 in a heartbeat. It is beefy where it counts, and that is by far the most important aspect in an astrophotography mount. All the glitz and software smarts matter exactly zilch when wind buffets start to shake your scope.

I hope one day you will get a chance to set up next to someone with AP1100 (or 1200 or even 900). Grab a counterweight shaft and try to wiggle it. Repeat the same with 1000HPS.
As I said, I haven't even seen a 10micron mount, let alone try it; but I've been in this game long enough to be fairly sure of the outcome. Old technology it might be, but that is what mounts are - old technology. They need to be rigid, precise, stiff, smooth and solid. Yes, software smarts are nice. But mount basics are crucial.




In reality, German equatorial mounts are "old tech" seeing as they have been around for a long time now. What works, works. The new tech is actually the drive systems (high precision, belts, zero backlash, direct drive, etc.) and the high precision encoder systems that are coming into play. Even mount computerization is not really new tech anymore, but it is certainly improving in capabilities.

There is of course no real comparison between the AP1100 and the 1000HPS. One is a semi-permanent mount while the other is a portable mount with half the payload. The real comparison would be with the 2000HPS which is in the same capacity and cost class. If you are choosing a mount with a 55 pound instrument payload capacity but are planning on putting a 110 pound instrument load on it, that would be a ill advised with any mount (of course there are people who claim to do this all the time, but they don't usually do it with equipment in this price range).

However, in either case I'm sure you would find the mounts to be rigid, precise, stiff, smooth and solid within the rated capacities. This is one of the prime reasons people purchase high-end mounts in the first place.

Wind is not a terrible problem for dual absolute encoder mounts and is another of their advantages. If you take an absolute encoder mount (or usually a direct drive mount as well), set the control display to show you the RA and DEC coordinates and give the mount a good shove, you will see the coordinates change with the shove and then very quickly go right back to tracking at the original coordinates (adjusted for tracking time). They can do this because of the precision of the encoder and drive systems. Not that I really understand the desire to be out in a wind storm, but people who live in areas with frequent very windy conditions can use absolute encoder and direct drive mounts very effectively to combat the problems caused by wind (within reason). While not necessarily the only way to combat wind, it is a very effective way to do so when you have no choice but to be out in it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bratislav
sage


Reged: 09/07/06

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: EFT]
      #5917905 - 06/12/13 10:42 PM

Quote:



Wind is not a terrible problem for dual absolute encoder mounts and is another of their advantages. If you take an absolute encoder mount (or usually a direct drive mount as well), set the control display to show you the RA and DEC coordinates and give the mount a good shove, you will see the coordinates change with the shove and then very quickly go right back to tracking at the original coordinates (adjusted for tracking time).




Perhaps in theory. "Very quickly" is a strechable term. What is very quick for someone observing at low magnification will not be so quick for an imager pushing the arc second envelope; even with direct drive mounts. There is simply way too much inertia and mass involved. And my understanding that 10micron are NOT direct drive, so they will be even slower to react. (but same logic applies for AP)
The only way to combat wind is with rigidity or adaptive optic (tip/tilt guiding); even better, both at the same time! There is no such thing as "overmounting" in astrophotography.

PS it was the poster I quoted that compared 1000HPS and AP1100. And in my mind there is no comparison. I agree the choice between 2000HPS and 1100 could be tougher, depending on user's priorities. AP's track record is second to none in the US; it is hard to compete on someone else's turf - good luck! Competition is always good for consumers.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: bratislav]
      #5918102 - 06/13/13 01:17 AM

I have only looked an AP mount once and they are mechanically very sturdy. Being very interested in encoder technology I have investigated the 1600GTO and found that they opted for the Renishaw Resolute series of encoders. Th Resolute series is a new offering from Renishaw and sports good resolution from a single optical track on the outside of a ring. This makes it one of the least installaton sensitive encoder systems on the market. Basically, if any encoder can be user retrofitted it is the Resolute series.

What boggles my mind is that they do not get to model the encoder. Suppose it ends up slightly off-center (we're talking a few microns only). The excentricity would make it behave differently over the course of a revolution and the system as a whole would thus benefit from modeling in situ. Being a single channel encoder, the axial offset is of less concern which is good. This is what makes it more installation insensitive. The radial problem, however, remains.

I am quite certain that Bisque models their encoder solution about to be released (only offered as a factory installed option) as does ASA.

The again, perhaps most people continue to guide and the problem thus never pops up.

Has anyone checked AP's encoder solution and can offer any insights?

(definitely back on topic now)
/per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
vdb
sage


Reged: 12/08/09

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #5918121 - 06/13/13 01:51 AM

If I take high res encoders it would only be on direct drive or friction based systems ...
The reasons being quite simple ...
-less prone to wind (even very low wind speeds can affect a big scope, especially if there is backlash)
-gears will potentially require more maintenance over time ...

Only if portability is important I would go for a 10micron 1000HPS (we dismissed it for the fix setup as it was limited in capacity and the 2000 pricing is just out of proportion)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jjongmans
super member


Reged: 02/11/12

Loc: The Netherlands
Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc [Re: vdb]
      #5918241 - 06/13/13 06:09 AM

Interesting topic. I decided to buy a high precision mount last year. I chose the ASA DDM60, absolutely no regrets, outstanding performance for its price:
- Direct Drive
- No Periodic Error
- No Backlash
- Needs a PC
- Pinpoint stars on 30 min unguided subs (0.806"/px)
- No problem with strong wind (5 beaufort)
- 0.3" tracking peak-to-peak (even 0.22" once)
- Silent, absolutely no sound
- Affordable < $12000

I use it completely automated with guiding, just to be sure. I always analyze the guiding log and I almost never see a correction.

I had a USB issue once, the mount was picked up by ASA and I received it back within 2 weeks. Great service! I live in Europe.

Edited by jjongmans (06/13/13 06:20 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: Mount Upgrade Time! AP, SB, 10Micron, etc [Re: jjongmans]
      #5918278 - 06/13/13 07:20 AM

jjongmans, do you have a permanent setup? if not do you build a pointing model with the DDM60 for each use? How long does that take? thx

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | (show all)


Extra information
18 registered and 27 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Dave M, richard7, bilgebay, iceblaze 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 6938

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics