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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts
      #5937079 - 06/23/13 08:36 PM

I cannot believe that after almost a decade, Celestron's quality control is so pathetic that CG-5 mounts still have the totally useless grade 5 latitude adjustment bolts.

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RTLR 12
Post Laureate
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5937105 - 06/23/13 08:56 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

I spent $5 and replaced them with something better. Now I don't have to complain about them any more.

Stan


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5937113 - 06/23/13 09:02 PM

Quote:

I spent $5 and replaced them with something better. Now I don't have to complain about them any more.

Stan




Where'd you get those? I'm definitely heading to Home Depot tomorrow for some grade 8 hardware.


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5937118 - 06/23/13 09:03 PM

And now I have to figure out how to take apart the knuckle joint to remove the piece of the old bolt that broke off.

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RTLR 12
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5937121 - 06/23/13 09:04 PM

Granger's Hardware...

https://new.grainger.com/product/KIPP-Star-Grip-Knob-3DGA7


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RTLR 12
Post Laureate
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5937195 - 06/23/13 09:54 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

Sorry, I read this wrong. I posted longitude replacements. Here are the latitude replacements. I used these with a SS stud and jam nut.

https://new.grainger.com/product/KIPP-M8-Thread-Size-Star-Grip-Knob-WP57603/_...

Stan


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5937221 - 06/23/13 10:11 PM

None of the links work, it would be better to just post the part numbers.

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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5937473 - 06/24/13 04:09 AM

They have been upgraded look at the AVX mount.

Chris


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RTLR 12
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5937492 - 06/24/13 05:51 AM

Don't know why that happens. I can see them perfectly.

The Granger's part # for the alt knob is Kipp 3DFT3 and the az knobs is 3DGA7.

Stan


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RTLR 12
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5937493 - 06/24/13 05:57 AM

FlyDB5,

I have never had any trouble with the bolts breaking. I replaced them for ergonomic reasons. Why do you think you are breaking bolts?

Stan


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5937646 - 06/24/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

I cannot believe that after almost a decade, Celestron's quality control is so pathetic that CG-5 mounts still have the totally useless grade 5 latitude adjustment bolts.




Welll...that would be true if they were useless, but they are not. I haven't had any problems with them over almost 10 years of use. They are small, and it would be nice if the knobs were bigger as on the VX, but they work and work well. Can you describe the problem you are having with them?


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spencerj
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 11/17/04

Loc: Londonderry, NH
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: rmollise]
      #5937701 - 06/24/13 10:05 AM

Yeah the latitude knobs are small and the longitude flippers feel a little flimsy, but I have never had a problem with them in the 6 years I have had my CG-5. They have always functioned fine and I always make polar alignment adjustments with the telescope and weights already mounted.

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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5938355 - 06/24/13 04:48 PM

Quote:

FlyDB5,

I have never had any trouble with the bolts breaking. I replaced them for ergonomic reasons. Why do you think you are breaking bolts?

Stan




It's well known fact that the knobs are substandard, grade 5 bolts that bend inside the mount if the mount is raised to full latitude range. When trying to get one out it split.


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5938497 - 06/24/13 06:22 PM

Quote:



It's well known fact that the knobs are substandard, grade 5 bolts that bend inside the mount if the mount is raised to full latitude range. When trying to get one out it split.




Sorry you had a problem, but it is definitely not "well known." In fact, you are the first person I've head who's had this happen to them. Yes, bent bolts are fairly common on the Atlas...but not on the CG5...


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: rmollise]
      #5938594 - 06/24/13 07:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:



It's well known fact that the knobs are substandard, grade 5 bolts that bend inside the mount if the mount is raised to full latitude range. When trying to get one out it split.




Sorry you had a problem, but it is definitely not "well known." In fact, you are the first person I've head who's had this happen to them. Yes, bent bolts are fairly common on the Atlas...but not on the CG5...




No, Rod, that just means you haven't heard of it. The issue is so well known that you can buy upgrade kits on eBay to specifically deal with this issue of substandard bolts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQ5-CG5-Mount-Latitude-Azimuth-Bolt-Upgrade-Set-Meade...


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5938663 - 06/24/13 08:23 PM

...and here's yet another example.

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rmollise
Postmaster
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Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5938849 - 06/24/13 10:42 PM

Quote:


No, Rod, that just means you haven't heard of it. The issue is so well known that you can buy upgrade kits on eBay to specifically deal with this issue of substandard bolts.






If that's your belief, that's fine. My experience is different.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5939463 - 06/25/13 10:33 AM

Flybede,

The scope stuff ad is just for flower handled bolts. Beware, stainless + aluminum = galvanic couple. It doesn't say anything about breaking the bolts. How did you do that, anyway?

For another thing, you might want to look up who Rod Molise is.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



It's well known fact that the knobs are substandard, grade 5 bolts that bend inside the mount if the mount is raised to full latitude range. When trying to get one out it split.




Sorry you had a problem, but it is definitely not "well known." In fact, you are the first person I've head who's had this happen to them. Yes, bent bolts are fairly common on the Atlas...but not on the CG5...




No, Rod, that just means you haven't heard of it. The issue is so well known that you can buy upgrade kits on eBay to specifically deal with this issue of substandard bolts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQ5-CG5-Mount-Latitude-Azimuth-Bolt-Upgrade-Set-Meade...




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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: rmollise]
      #5939467 - 06/25/13 10:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:


No, Rod, that just means you haven't heard of it. The issue is so well known that you can buy upgrade kits on eBay to specifically deal with this issue of substandard bolts.






If that's your belief, that's fine. My experience is different.




My experience is the same as Rod's. I have seen plenty of CG-5 mounts and have very rarely seen one with even a bent adjustment bolt. They are cheap bolts, but the reason most people replace them is because the little handle things are a pain to use. They change them to get a handle that is easier to grip and make fine adjustments with. Just because someone is selling replacements of a completely different design, doesn't mean that people are purchasing the replacements because their originals bent or broke. The EQ-6 is the mount that had bent and broken bolt problems. I fixed plenty of them.


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5939699 - 06/25/13 12:40 PM

Quote:

Flybede,

The scope stuff ad is just for flower handled bolts. Beware, stainless + aluminum = galvanic couple. It doesn't say anything about breaking the bolts. How did you do that, anyway?

For another thing, you might want to look up who Rod Molise is.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



It's well known fact that the knobs are substandard, grade 5 bolts that bend inside the mount if the mount is raised to full latitude range. When trying to get one out it split.




Sorry you had a problem, but it is definitely not "well known." In fact, you are the first person I've head who's had this happen to them. Yes, bent bolts are fairly common on the Atlas...but not on the CG5...




No, Rod, that just means you haven't heard of it. The issue is so well known that you can buy upgrade kits on eBay to specifically deal with this issue of substandard bolts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQ5-CG5-Mount-Latitude-Azimuth-Bolt-Upgrade-Set-Meade...







If you look at the eBay it specifically mentions the substandard bolts that what they sell are meant to replace. A simple Google search uncovers discussion threads going back to 2005 that talk about the bolts bending inside the mount, as well as breaking when an attempt is made to remove them because they are soft grade 5 bolts. Given that I've been working with aviation-grade hardware for more than 35 years, I think I can tell the difference between good quality bolts that fit the purpose for which they are being used, and the soft, poorly plated ones that Celestron is using in the mount. The evidence is there for everyone to see -- the fact that someone hasn't seen the evidence has no relevance to the validity of the evidence, unless you are prepared to seriously suggest that there are people in this hobby who believe that if he/she hasn't seen it happen, it has never happened. I do believe not even Mr. Mollise believes that, as he has already stated in his reply.


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5940448 - 06/25/13 08:43 PM

i will only say this,i'm the third owner of my CG-5 AGT, when i got it i assume it had the original firmware V4.10, one of the oldest versions that exist. the manual i got also reflects this. from my rough research my mount is probably 5-6 years old if not older. my adjustment bolts are all fine, yes i've taken them out completely, they are not bent.

yes i want to replace them but only because they are a real pain to use, esp the north facing one at my lat of 37 N the electronics cover gets in the way of being able to use the flip thingy adjuster on it if i don't make sure to flip it before turning it too far one way.

Edited by frito (06/25/13 08:44 PM)


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spencerj
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 11/17/04

Loc: Londonderry, NH
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: rmollise]
      #5941096 - 06/26/13 09:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:


No, Rod, that just means you haven't heard of it. The issue is so well known that you can buy upgrade kits on eBay to specifically deal with this issue of substandard bolts.






If that's your belief, that's fine. My experience is different.




Who is this Uncle Rod fella? He talks like he has seen a CG-5 or two, but I doubt he knows pea-turkey about classic C8's. It's not like he wrote the book on them.


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Cliff Hipsher
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Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: North Chesterfield, VA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: spencerj]
      #5941114 - 06/26/13 09:40 AM

Speakin' of cheesy latitude bolts, has anyone considered using a worm gear arrangement to adjust latitude? In other words, replace the adjustment bolts with a worm shaft and cut threads on the latitude stub... And why wouldn't the same thing work for Azimuth?

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5941201 - 06/26/13 10:42 AM

It's a low use mechanism- and at most should be getting used once per session. Sure, you could jazz it up all the way to making it a motion platform with motors and encoders. And that would double the cost of the mount.

-Rich


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DaveJ
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/07/05

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: spencerj]
      #5941248 - 06/26/13 11:05 AM

Quote:

Who is this Uncle Rod fella? He talks like he has seen a CG-5 or two, but I doubt he knows pea-turkey about classic C8's. It's not like he wrote the book on them.




Good one!


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5941338 - 06/26/13 12:06 PM

Quote:

Speakin' of cheesy latitude bolts, has anyone considered using a worm gear arrangement to adjust latitude? In other words, replace the adjustment bolts with a worm shaft and cut threads on the latitude stub... And why wouldn't the same thing work for Azimuth?




There are definitely upper-level mounts that use better adjustment systems for the latitude, but such luxuries come with a price.


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: EFT]
      #5941561 - 06/26/13 02:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Speakin' of cheesy latitude bolts, has anyone considered using a worm gear arrangement to adjust latitude? In other words, replace the adjustment bolts with a worm shaft and cut threads on the latitude stub... And why wouldn't the same thing work for Azimuth?




There are definitely upper-level mounts that use better adjustment systems for the latitude, but such luxuries come with a price.




I agree, but when it comes to bolts like these, the difference can't amount to more than $3-4, at most.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5941585 - 06/26/13 03:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Speakin' of cheesy latitude bolts, has anyone considered using a worm gear arrangement to adjust latitude? In other words, replace the adjustment bolts with a worm shaft and cut threads on the latitude stub... And why wouldn't the same thing work for Azimuth?




There are definitely upper-level mounts that use better adjustment systems for the latitude, but such luxuries come with a price.




I agree, but when it comes to bolts like these, the difference can't amount to more than $3-4, at most.




These are 5 cent bolts. They can definitely be better (if nothing else at least smoother). The problem actually goes beyond the bolts to the fact that they are threaded through relatively thin cast aluminum which wears quickly when used frequently. The contact angles on the plate where the adjustment bolt pushes is also an issue. Better systems run the bolts through solid machined aluminum or brass, even better systems use some type of cam system and the best systems use a worm or rack and pinion setup. Some systems use moving or moveable tongues or even moveable RA housings to provide for different latitude adjustments. Numerous ways to get to the same result, this is just the cheapest way.


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Cliff Hipsher
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: North Chesterfield, VA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5941607 - 06/26/13 03:19 PM

Quote:

Sure, you could jazz it up all the way to making it a motion platform with motors and encoders. And that would double the cost of the mount.

-Rich




"Jazzing it up" as you put it is not the idea. The idea is to make the latitude adjustment more robust, more reliable, and easier to use.

As they are now, latitude and azimuth adjustment mechanisms (if in fact you can call then mechanisms..) are a joke.

With the advancements in technology we see in the latest mounts, one could easily compare using these "mechanisms" to the crank starting your car.

What really surprises me is updating to a simple worm gears is infinitely more elegant and not all that expensive.


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SergeC
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 03/23/12

Loc: Gainesville, FL
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5941824 - 06/26/13 05:39 PM

Don't you just love when someone complains endlessly about the quality of a mass-produced, entry-level product?

I was third owner of my (now gone) CG5. I got the ScopeStuff altitude replacement knobs, but took them off and re-installed the original flipper bolts. I found I could get much better torque with less effort (and thus easier adjustment - and isn't that the whole point?) with the flipper bolts.

The mod I found most useful was two-fold: I put a 1/32" layer of Slick Strip tape on the tripod head, and replaced the azimuth knobs with ball-end knobs with a toggle thrust pad (the M6X1.0, 45mm stud length, 15mm thrust pad). I had to sand down the thrust pad to fit within the mount cavity, but the resulting force distribution over a larger area on the azimuth pin made for ultra-smooth and almost effortless azimuth adjustment. Have done the same on my CGEM.


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Cliff Hipsher
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Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: North Chesterfield, VA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: SergeC]
      #5941844 - 06/26/13 06:01 PM

Quote:

Don't you just love when someone complains endlessly about the quality of a mass-produced, entry-level product?

I was third owner of my (now gone) CG5. I got the ScopeStuff altitude replacement knobs, but took them off and re-installed the original flipper bolts. I found I could get much better torque with less effort (and thus easier adjustment - and isn't that the whole point?) with the flipper bolts.

The mod I found most useful was two-fold: I put a 1/32" layer of Slick Strip tape on the tripod head, and replaced the azimuth knobs with ball-end knobs with a toggle thrust pad (the M6X1.0, 45mm stud length, 15mm thrust pad). I had to sand down the thrust pad to fit within the mount cavity, but the resulting force distribution over a larger area on the azimuth pin made for ultra-smooth and almost effortless azimuth adjustment. Have done the same on my CGEM.




OK, you got me, and I think I'll look into these mods for my mount.


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5941885 - 06/26/13 06:25 PM

I suppose everything is relative, but a $700+ mount is not entry-level, especially when you consider that there are dozens of less expensive mounts that can certainly be classified as truly entry-level. Anyway, the azimuth bolts are not a big deal, they're not nearly under as much stress as the altitude bolts.

So does anybody know the procedure to open up the knuckle joint to get inside and remove the piece of bolt that broke off?

Edited by FlyBD5 (06/26/13 06:28 PM)


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5942002 - 06/26/13 07:18 PM

for a tracking goto EQ mount 700 is entry level but keep in mind the CG-5 AGT is no longer 700 as the AVX has replaced it and new CG-5's are now 550 by far making it one of the cheapest and still the best bang for your buck at the budget level but it does have flaws and limitations, its an old and cheap design.

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SergeC
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 03/23/12

Loc: Gainesville, FL
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: frito]
      #5942036 - 06/26/13 07:42 PM

Yes, there are tons of less expensive mounts, none of them GoTo. Doesn't matter if it's Celestron, Meade, iOptron, Orion, etc., the $700-800 range WAS the entry level price for a GoTo, but as Dwayne pointed out above that entry price is now at $550.

If I was still doing mostly visual I'd have kept my CG5. Great payload capacity for a relatively lightweight mount that was easy to take into the field, very accurate GoTos, comparatively low power consumption (meant fewer deep cycle batteries to lug along to the remote sites). I would recommend one to anyone looking for a grab-and-go mount for primarily visual, especially at the new lower price.


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: SergeC]
      #5942179 - 06/26/13 09:35 PM

Like I said, it's all relative. This is exactly the same thing people say about the NexStar mounts. And so it goes.

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5942284 - 06/26/13 10:57 PM

They should be used before the saddle is loaded with a payload. With lots of counterweight and a heavy payload the thin bolts are doing a fair amount of work when being turned. Unloaded it should be almost impossible to bend or break one.

- Jim


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5942523 - 06/27/13 04:49 AM

What I don't understand is how people manage to break or bend these screws. Don't they notice that the adjustment is getting difficult to move. Do they keep going until something breaks rather than stopping and finding out what is happening?

Chris


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Cliff Hipsher
Pooh-Bah
***

Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: North Chesterfield, VA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5942697 - 06/27/13 09:03 AM

Quote:

They should be used before the saddle is loaded with a payload. With lots of counterweight and a heavy payload the thin bolts are doing a fair amount of work when being turned. Unloaded it should be almost impossible to bend or break one.

- Jim




OK, so I'm doing a 2 star (Polar) alignment with my LXD75. I have the mount in the Polar Home position, I press Enter, and the mount slews to Polaris. I hear a beep and the handbox prompts me to use the alt and az bolts to adjust the mount to get Polaris centered in my eyepiece.

My question is, if I'm not supposed to use the adjustment bolts with an OTA mounted, how do I get Polaris centered in the eyepiece?


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Cliff Hipsher
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Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: North Chesterfield, VA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5942704 - 06/27/13 09:10 AM

Quote:

What I don't understand is how people manage to break or bend these screws. Don't they notice that the adjustment is getting difficult to move. Do they keep going until something breaks rather than stopping and finding out what is happening?

Chris




I've known some really smart people who were, shall we say, "mechanically challenged"? As a case in point, I served with a Chief Machinist Mate who would quote engine room equipment specs, repair procedures, operating procedures, and such, but the Chief Engineer had to order him not to touch any tools...


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FlyBD5
sage
*****

Reged: 02/12/13

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5942718 - 06/27/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

What I don't understand is how people manage to break or bend these screws. Don't they notice that the adjustment is getting difficult to move. Do they keep going until something breaks rather than stopping and finding out what is happening?

Chris




This happens exactly the way it happens to others, and is perfectly logical. The bolts get bent under conditions where they should not, and of course I noticed they were hard to turn. When that happened to me I checked the web to see if I could understand what was going on, and I found multiple references to the exact same issue. I then carefully worked the bolt trying to get it to come out so I could replace it with a stronger one, but it is a CHEAP, SOFT GRADE 5 BOLT that should not have been used in the first place. During the process of extracting it, it came about about half the distance, and then it broke.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5942804 - 06/27/13 10:01 AM

I just tried this, tightening one bolt against the other, and indeed it gets tight. But if you have the slightest mechanical sympathy you stop before things bend. It takes a lot of force to bend this 8mm bolt.

Now you seem to have applied even more force, trying to force a bent bolt through a straight hole, and as a result have broken the bolt. If it hadn't broken you would probably have stripped the thread.

Your best option is to find a local engineer who can drill the wreckage of the bolt out and, if necessary, retap the hole in the mount, possibly fitting a helicoil thread insert.

It might also be possible to screw the broken end of the bolt into the mount - with the other bolt removed to give room - and so remove it inwards. Even so the threads in the mount are probably in a bad way now so fitting helicoils may still be a good idea.

Chris


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5942874 - 06/27/13 10:45 AM

Quote:

I just tried this, tightening one bolt against the other, and indeed it gets tight. But if you have the slightest mechanical sympathy you stop before things bend. It takes a lot of force to bend this 8mm bolt.

Now you seem to have applied even more force, trying to force a bent bolt through a straight hole, and as a result have broken the bolt. If it hadn't broken you would probably have stripped the thread.

Your best option is to find a local engineer who can drill the wreckage of the bolt out and, if necessary, retap the hole in the mount, possibly fitting a helicoil thread insert.

It might also be possible to screw the broken end of the bolt into the mount - with the other bolt removed to give room - and so remove it inwards. Even so the threads in the mount are probably in a bad way now so fitting helicoils may still be a good idea.

Chris




You don't seem to understand what happened. Try to focus on what I said, rather than what you think I said. The bolts worked fine until they got bent by the normal movement of the head. I didn't find them tight or hard to turn until after they got bent. As I said, I have worked with aviation-grade hardware all my life. I know exactly how not to abuse a bolt. The thread is fine, precisely because I know how to do this kind of work. No helicoil or any other repair is needed there. And if you had read the thread before commenting you would have seen that the piece of the bolt is inside the knuckle joint (because I threaded it in rather than risking damaging the thread using an extractor), which is why I am asking if anyone knows how to take it apart.

If I could get an answer to that question, rather than all sorts of ruminations and creative stories about what happened, I would appreciate it.


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5942876 - 06/27/13 10:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

They should be used before the saddle is loaded with a payload. With lots of counterweight and a heavy payload the thin bolts are doing a fair amount of work when being turned. Unloaded it should be almost impossible to bend or break one.

- Jim




OK, so I'm doing a 2 star (Polar) alignment with my LXD75. I have the mount in the Polar Home position, I press Enter, and the mount slews to Polaris. I hear a beep and the handbox prompts me to use the alt and az bolts to adjust the mount to get Polaris centered in my eyepiece.

My question is, if I'm not supposed to use the adjustment bolts with an OTA mounted, how do I get Polaris centered in the eyepiece?




Exactly.


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RTLR 12
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5942898 - 06/27/13 10:59 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

Juan,

Pry the plastic covers off the the wedge axis and you will find the pivot bolt.

Stan


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EFT
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5942913 - 06/27/13 11:06 AM

Quote:

You don't seem to understand what happened. Try to focus on what I said, rather than what you think I said. The bolts worked fine until they got bent by the normal movement of the head. I didn't find them tight or hard to turn until after they got bent. As I said, I have worked with aviation-grade hardware all my life. I know exactly how not to abuse a bolt. The thread is fine, precisely because I know how to do this kind of work. No helicoil or any other repair is needed there. And if you had read the thread before commenting you would have seen that the piece of the bolt is inside the knuckle joint (because I threaded it in rather than risking damaging the thread using an extractor), which is why I am asking if anyone knows how to take it apart.

If I could get an answer to that question, rather than all sorts of ruminations and creative stories about what happened, I would appreciate it.




All you need to do is remove the plastic caps off both sides of the mount base. Under there you will see the bolt that attaches the mount base and acts as the axle. Remove that and you will be able to remove the base and get access to the inside where the bolt is. You may have to be a bit creative to get in there to either cut it off or thread it completely through, but that's the method for removing the bent bolt. Ben there, done that.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5942929 - 06/27/13 11:14 AM

I have flown and instructed on aircraft all my adult life. I hope you never work on any aircraft I fly.

You said yourself that you broke the bolts trying to remove them. Your best option is to contact Celestron. I doubt you can do this yourself. And your policy of insulting everyone who responds is unlikely to cause you to get much help.

Chris


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5942940 - 06/27/13 11:21 AM

Thank you, Stan and Ed. The piece of the bolt is inside, already dropped in. I carefully thread it in with a screw long enough to reach so I can remove it. Much appreciated.

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spencerj
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5942942 - 06/27/13 11:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

They should be used before the saddle is loaded with a payload. With lots of counterweight and a heavy payload the thin bolts are doing a fair amount of work when being turned. Unloaded it should be almost impossible to bend or break one.

- Jim




OK, so I'm doing a 2 star (Polar) alignment with my LXD75. I have the mount in the Polar Home position, I press Enter, and the mount slews to Polaris. I hear a beep and the handbox prompts me to use the alt and az bolts to adjust the mount to get Polaris centered in my eyepiece.

My question is, if I'm not supposed to use the adjustment bolts with an OTA mounted, how do I get Polaris centered in the eyepiece?




Exactly.




You get it very, very close with a Polar scope before you mount the OTA. If the Polar scope is used properly, very little adjustment would be needed. We are talking about fractions of a turn as opposed to cranking on the bolts 8-10 times.


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5942943 - 06/27/13 11:24 AM

Quote:

I have flown and instructed on aircraft all my adult life. I hope you never work on any aircraft I fly.




I have plenty of customers around the world, so I can afford to be very choosy. You don't qualify. Find someone else.


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hottr6
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5943116 - 06/27/13 01:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I spent $5 and replaced them with something better. Now I don't have to complain about them any more.

Stan




Where'd you get those? I'm definitely heading to Home Depot tomorrow for some grade 8 hardware.



Anything with a handle is not Grade 8, almost by definition.

And I don't think Grade 8 will work... doesn't the CG5 use metric?


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RTLR 12
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: hottr6]
      #5943194 - 06/27/13 02:16 PM

Shane,

How about metric grade 10.9? That's the metric equivalent to grade 8 std. It's only nomenclature.

Stan


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5943325 - 06/27/13 03:44 PM

Quote:

Shane,

How about metric grade 10.9? That's the metric equivalent to grade 8 std. It's only nomenclature.

Stan




Correct, if it's a metric bolt (I haven't looked at it that closely) then it should be a 10.9 which is equivalent to grade 8 in proof load as well as tensile and yield strength.


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: hottr6]
      #5943327 - 06/27/13 03:47 PM

Quote:

Anything with a handle is not Grade 8, almost by definition.




Well, that's true if the handle is made of the same material and stamped the same way, I suppose, but if you take a strong bolt you can also injection mold the handle or knob over it. Where there's will, I'm sure there's a way.


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Cliff Hipsher
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: spencerj]
      #5943469 - 06/27/13 05:19 PM

Quote:


You get it very, very close with a Polar scope before you mount the OTA. If the Polar scope is used properly, very little adjustment would be needed. We are talking about fractions of a turn as opposed to cranking on the bolts 8-10 times.




Talk about a "DUH!" moment. This makes perfect sense. Now I'm wondering why this is not covered in the manual?


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hottr6
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #5943536 - 06/27/13 05:57 PM

Quote:

How about metric grade 10.9? That's the metric equivalent to grade 8 std. It's only nomenclature.



Stan,

Yep, 10.9 is sort-of similar to Grade 8, but in metric.

Alas, it is not just nomenclature. There are very different standards applied to Grade 8 and 10.9 fasteners. Metric fastener grading is subject to ISO ruling. Grade 8 does not follow ISO rulings. E.g., there are no standards for surface discontinuities on any inch-standard fastener, but there are for metric. There is more reading at ASTM's (formerly the American Society for Testing and Materials) website than all of us here at CN could consume in a lifetime.


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TennDon
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5943545 - 06/27/13 06:00 PM

Quote:

What I don't understand is how people manage to break or bend these screws. Don't they notice that the adjustment is getting difficult to move. Do they keep going until something breaks rather than stopping and finding out what is happening?

Chris




I always try to give my CG5 alt/az bolts a helping hand by gently pushing the mount is the direction I want it to go. Haven't had any bolt-bending or breaking off problems. Just my $0.15 worth ( adj. for inflation ).


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SKYGZR
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5943625 - 06/27/13 06:51 PM

Quote:


You get it very, very close with a Polar scope before you mount the OTA. If the Polar scope is used properly, very little adjustment would be needed. We are talking about fractions of a turn as opposed to cranking on the bolts 8-10 times.




One can also adjust via the tripod legs (best method if scope is already mounted. It's a bit tricky, yet with practice works well.). When close, then fine tune with the adj bolts while giving it a "helping hand" by reaching around to the CW shaft.


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: FlyBD5]
      #5943626 - 06/27/13 06:52 PM

The mount is fixed. Piece of bolt retrieved from inside the knuckle joint, and it definitely failed as I would have expected a soft bolt to fail under torsion force as I was trying to remove it. Threads are just fine, I replaced the bolts with the knobbed ones from ScopeStuff and they fit fine with a little lubricant.

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jrbarnett
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5945342 - 06/28/13 06:24 PM

Can't help you there. But this post isn't about the LXD75. It's about the CG-5 as the thread title indicates. Does the LXD75 also have spaghetti noodle bolts?

For visual use with a CG5 there's no need to do anything more than align Polaris with the polar scope axial bore hole. You can do that without loading the saddle. Then load the saddle, apply the counterweights and proceed with a 2 star alignment and 3 or 4 calibration stars. You'll be bang on all night and will never bend or break the flimsy little bolts.

With the LXD that requires you to make adjustments loaded, I'd suggest having a buddy help maybe. Someone lifting up lightly on the counteweight shaft while you make the bolts go will really lessen the work being done by the bolts during adjustment.

The Atlas EQ-G is even a bigger joke than the CG5 in this regard. Same flimsy painful bolts but much more head mass to move with them, loaded or not. I replaced those with big all stainless steel bolts with knurled hand knobs from McMaster-Carr, but even with those the buddy system helps during alt-az adjustments, loaded or not.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (06/28/13 06:50 PM)


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Cliff Hipsher
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5945501 - 06/28/13 08:06 PM

Quote:

Can't help you there. But this post isn't about the LXD75. It's about the CG-5 as the thread title indicates. Does the LXD75 also have spaghetti noodle bolts?






Yep. The Celestron and Meade GEMs are cousins... When I have an OTA aboard it is impossible to move the mount in ALT by just turning a bolt. If I need to raise the mount (RA axis is too low), I make sure the North bolt is loose, and then I "lift" the optics to take weight off of the South bolt, and then I turn the bolt. Needless to say it takes several iterations to get to where you need to be.

With that being said, next time I get to go out (the weather and seeing/transparency have not been very good lately...), I'm going to try doing a polar before I load the mount and see how it goes....


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dragonslayer1
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Reged: 02/25/12

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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: Cliff Hipsher]
      #5945663 - 06/28/13 09:48 PM

there was a thread about this topic somewhat; adjusting the polar alignment with hardware... I seem to remember they were saying they found this like heavy duty waxpaper they put between mount head and base. It holds up forever and makes the head rotate so smooth and easy. It was not too long ago in the mount section, mabey under GEM polar align?? not sure but would be worthwhile finding and checking it out.
Kasey


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dragonslayer1
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: dragonslayer1]
      #5945682 - 06/28/13 10:00 PM

Found it, is about 7 pages back under " improving polar alignment", talks about this UHMW product,
Kasey


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FlyBD5
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Re: Pathetic CG-5 latitude adjustment bolts new [Re: dragonslayer1]
      #5970299 - 07/14/13 12:14 PM

After a couple of weeks I can confirm the ScopeStuff replacement bolts fix this issue. No more problems. I'll probably replace the aluminum plate that screws into the mount and through which one of the bolts threads with a steel replacement. Easy enough to get it cut, drilled, countersunk and threaded...

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