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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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shams42
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 01/05/09

Loc: Kingsport, TN
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6096021 - 09/22/13 11:34 PM

I found myself in a similar quandry. I am fascinated by the 10Micron mount in particular and have read the instruction manual several times. It sounds amazing. Ultimately I ended up going with the Paramount MX due to all the information out there and the mature software integration. It also helps that the PMX can carry about twice the weight of the GM1000. I am hoping to try some unguided images via ProTrack and TPoint. The PMX arrives on Tuesday!

My Takahashi NJP has been an amazing mount for guided imaging and truthfully its only shortcoming is that it doesn't thrive in an automated environment.


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Hilmi]
      #6096149 - 09/23/13 01:30 AM

Quote:

...I saw an image from a DDM85 at 4500mm that was unguided and very impressive. but a DDM85 is not a DDM60. While the principles of operation are the same, I would still like to see feedback from users of the same mounts I am considering...





If you're seriously wanting to learn more about ASA mounts, you might want to check out some of the user experiences from their web site. It includes all kinds of set-ups. ASA forum is also a good place to ask what kind of results people are getting from their systems.

ASA


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Hilmi
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6096225 - 09/23/13 03:16 AM

Gir,

Thanks for the link. I have now found the sort of samples I was looking for. I found images done on a 10" LX200 unguided and they looked very nice.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6096264 - 09/23/13 05:27 AM

Quote:

Just have to comment on this

nd if you compare ASA to e.g. 10Micron who had problems to develop even proper ASCOM support without a help of a talented mount owner, not to even talk about other software development. I'd put my money on ASA




Well, they were late in releasing their ASCOM driver, that I can confirm. In the meantime I developed my own which is entirely mine and has nothing to do with 10Micron. Today both are available.

/per


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Hilmi
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6096290 - 09/23/13 06:29 AM

I see there is some healthy rivalry between the mount owners.

Per,

Did you purchase your mount with the full kit including the tripod and carry cases? How good re these accessories? Do you feel they are good enough to be considered influential in the purchase decision?


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6096315 - 09/23/13 07:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just have to comment on this

nd if you compare ASA to e.g. 10Micron who had problems to develop even proper ASCOM support without a help of a talented mount owner, not to even talk about other software development. I'd put my money on ASA




Well, they were late in releasing their ASCOM driver, that I can confirm. In the meantime I developed my own which is entirely mine and has nothing to do with 10Micron. Today both are available.
/per




It was just a comment to the way ASA is doing their software development, and a reminder how important a good software package really is.

What comes to 10Micron and ASCOM support the situation is like Per described, however, I'm not sure the current situation is any better what comes to the future software development.

Let's take the "local pointing model" which ASA already has, and which is quite a useful and important tool when doing unguided imaging.
As Per said earlier...

" ASA's software has the path tracking option as you mention. The same is doable with a 10Micron mount if you just choose to model along the path of the intended target. Easily done with my model making software (you can read about that on my site)"

Another example is the "Model Maker" tool which as far as I know is developed by Per. A quote from his web site:

"Model maker will completely automate the modelling of the sky and let you sit back with a cup of coffee while a 25-star model is built for you to a very high degree of accuracy. This application is a must and has taken many hours and crazy ideas to complete. I have released it as donor-ware and appreciate any contribution you want to give, large, small or non-monetary"

ASA on the other hand has a very sophisticated modeling tool as a standard feature.


For me it looksi like 10Micron is still not very active in developing their software package, and users have to make their own applications.

These are all of course personal preferences but was one of the main reasons I dropped 10Micron out of my list when was looking for a new mount.


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6096346 - 09/23/13 08:06 AM

I'm also considering these two mounts. But since I plan to purchase another fast and short refractor for wide imaging and install it on top of my present refractor I'm afraid that capacity from both mounts is too small. So I'm looking into PMX as a third option, I think that 40 kg would be enough.
I don't know if that would be an option for OP since PMX doesn't come with absolute encoders.


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Hilmi
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: orion69]
      #6096588 - 09/23/13 10:47 AM

I had originally considered the MX. I just wanted to consider options from Europe which for me will save me shipping cost if in the future I need technical support and have to send bits and bobs for repair.

I hqve had excellent response for support for my g11 but it costs a small fortune every time I have to send something back to the US for repair.


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tomcody
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/06/08

Loc: Titusville, Florida
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6097267 - 09/23/13 06:36 PM

GIR,
Could you please tell me about how the mount works with the power off? does the RA and DEC axis just turn freely? and if that is true? does the scope ( when mounted) just swing to its balanced point ( kind of like realeasing the clutches on a gear driven mount) . How do you put the scope on the mount ? do you have to have the power on to prevent the mount from moving while you set the scope on the saddle?
thanks, Rex


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: tomcody]
      #6097789 - 09/24/13 01:32 AM

Good questions Rex...

Yes the scope can move freely when the power is off, however, it's perfectly balanced so it doesn't move into any specific position. It'll always stay exactly where you've stopped it. So it can be parked or stopped into any position.
First it felt a bit odd but now it's kind of neat because you can rotate the system around when doing initial balancing or whatever reason you'll need to rotate the scope.

When you turn the power on the whole system will become very stiff, but it's kind of "elastic stiffness" and you can feel the resistant growing when gently pushing the scope.

It's good to remember that the encoders send signals to the mount 100x per second so the mount is able to react even into wind gusts and stay on track.

I've made some experiments to see how the mount reacts to the external interferences. Knocking the pier(I have a steel-concrete combination) will cause 1-2 arc sec corrections and a bit more rough banging on the pier will cause larger correction signals but they are all made in a fraction of a second. So the mount really is able to smooth out wind gusts when tuned properly.

RA and DE axis have screws you can tighten when putting the scope on ...and of course you'll loosen them before operating the mount. Sometime I'll use them sometime I don't.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: tomcody]
      #6097801 - 09/24/13 01:51 AM Attachment (12 downloads)

About the advanced bolt-on software from ASA. I would agree that ASA are more active in developing the software that the user sees, but in the case of 10Micron the situation is not that different.

The mount does everything in firmware while the ASA mount is totally dead without a computer attached. Take the modeling:

  • The entire modeling of the sky is handled WITHIN the mount
  • The model holds 100 points max
  • You can save and recall models
  • It models polar error, ortho error and consistent flexure
  • The model is used for gotos and dual axis tracking - in-mount
  • The mount models atmospheric refraction - again in-mount

You get all those functions without having a computer attached. As for development, well, you get the modeling improved in software by means of firmware updates instead of Windows applications (and their inherent "stability").

When you model an ASA mount you use Autoslew, Sequence, MaximDL, Pinpoint and the GSC 1.1 catalogue.

When you model a 10Micron mount you can use the handpad or any external software that can send syncs. There is no off-mount processing required; the mount calculates the model on its own. Just add a sync point in any planetarium software and the model is improved.

My Model Maker is an external piece of software with a reasonably nice user interface and feature set. Baader Planetarium, the "business end" of 10Micron, features it on their we site, and my writing it and offering it to the community has probably made them back off on the production of their own software in favor of concentrating on the firmware in the mounts.

Model Maker lets you click a bunch of points, slews to them one by one, exposes, plate solves and syncs the mount to the solved coordinates. There is no magic modeling going on as that is handled by the mount. The next iteration of Model Maker (in the works) will speed up the process by storing all plate solves and sending them all to the mount in one batch (at the time of building or later from a file, firmware support for that was released today). The current version can iterate through the mount model and remove points with higher errors, all in order to reduce the complex model terms resulting expected RMS error. Again, calculations are done in-mount.

What I am trying to point out is that the principles of the ASA and the 10Micron mounts differ fundamentally. ASA is 100 percent computer dependent, 10Micron is not. ASA sports the cool direct drive concept but lacks automatic locks (power off and the goose is loose, start a slew and cut power and the slew just goes on until impact).

I would get an ASA mount today if it had the model and motor handling in the mount and some kind of locks that would engage upon power loss. Those are my ONLY objections to the ASA mounts, and to me they are show stoppers as I want to run my mounts unattended in remote locations, something I would not dare to do with an ASA today.

Now, there's a rather large two-center, right?

/per


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Hilmi]
      #6097813 - 09/24/13 02:16 AM

Quote:

I see there is some healthy rivalry between the mount owners.

Per,

Did you purchase your mount with the full kit including the tripod and carry cases? How good re these accessories? Do you feel they are good enough to be considered influential in the purchase decision?




I got my GM2000HPS with the Centaur tripod (what a product!) and the carrying cases. Since I am now entirely going for remote stuff that would not have been my choice had I known. The GM1000 fits the tripod after drilling and tapering of three holes, and I got the GM1000 "naked" with two counter-weights.

/per


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6097815 - 09/24/13 02:20 AM

Quote:

What I am trying to point out is that the principles of the ASA and the 10Micron mounts differ fundamentally. ASA is 100 percent computer dependent, 10Micron is not. ASA sports the cool direct drive concept but lacks automatic locks (power off and the goose is loose, start a slew and cut power and the slew just goes on until impact).

I would get an ASA mount today if it had the model and motor handling in the mount and some kind of locks that would engage upon power loss. Those are my ONLY objections to the ASA mounts, and to me they are show stoppers as I want to run my mounts unattended in remote locations, something I would not dare to do with an ASA today.





Per, It's kind of funny how fiercely you defend 10Micron and pick on ASA. First it was the encoders and now the "loose goose" thing. All I can say that ASA mounts are used a lot also remotely all over the world, and I've never heard or experienced myself anything even close what you're implying.

I have no interest in promoting ASA, just telling my experiences when someone asks. There is a lot of information available on ASA mounts, including user experiences. So anybody can find out themselves what ASA is all about and doesn't have to make decissions based on comments made by people who've never even used the mount. Anyway, I'm sure all high end mounts are able to do their job very wellÖ


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6097836 - 09/24/13 03:26 AM

Gir,

Please don't take this as "fierce defence" or "picking". I guess I'm just defending my own choices. The DDM60 was on my short list and I decided against it. I now have input from a bunch of people running it and some are very happy, while other (50/50) are not, a fact that makes me wonder a bit. Obviously, you are on the good end

Also, I believe hey now ship the 60 with true encoders - a fact that merits them. From a pure opinion standpoint, I don't think anyone could convince me about the soundness of having motor control via USB, that's just what I am. I design electronics and software a lot and am not very keen on being USB dependent.

So, again, don't interpret my rants as fierce, they really are not, just another voice in a never ending debate.

/per


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6097878 - 09/24/13 05:43 AM

Per,

As far as I know DDM60 has been shipped with the same encoders than other ASA mounts for sometime already. What comes to unhappy ASA mount owners you seem to know them all because the complaints I've heard are quite rare and not on issues you've been talking about.
But let's end this pointless discussion here and let people buy what ever mount they feel suits them best


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Nodinute
member


Reged: 06/05/07

Loc: 49¬į21'N / 6¬į10′E
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6097892 - 09/24/13 06:32 AM

I've seen this thread on the equipment forum.
May be this Direct Drive Mount could be a solid challenger..
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6044045/page...


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Nodinute]
      #6097915 - 09/24/13 07:32 AM

Yes, that is a very nice looking mount! I'd be very interested in more details about it. Must Google...

Gir, agreed!

/p


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6103681 - 09/27/13 09:01 AM

Hi there,i have the gm 1000 full package.
it is really nice and well made. No problem with the quality.
Unguided images supposes good & quick moddeling if you' re in the field which i'm.

The plus of the 10Ķ is it feels simple to use (compared to what i saw from ASA, which look very complex...)

The minus is the lack of modelling devellopement which should not has been done by an external as Per.

by the way 10Ķ is very reactive in the update of firmware and drivers

Edited by famax (09/27/13 09:03 AM)


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Hilmi
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Muscat, Sultanate of Oman
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6103812 - 09/27/13 10:07 AM

Famax,

How are the accessories provided such as the tripod and the carry cases. I understand the carry case uses the same foam the mount came with. Is the foam good enough to last a long time?


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Tonk
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: ASA DDM60 Pro vs. GM1000HPS new [Re: Hilmi]
      #6107678 - 09/29/13 02:53 PM

I'm a proud owner of a new 10Micron GM1000HPS mount. I originally planned on a Paramount MX

On talking to the vendor (Ian King) about my specific needs - lengthy unguided tracking and a self contained system with no external computer required - especially as I go mobile to remote elevated sites, he recommended the 10Micron.

I've been running it 2 months now. I can consistently get polar alignment to within a bounds of 25 to 15 arc seconds error using just the built in firmware. Firmware upgrades are easy to install when needed.

I am able to shoot unguided reliably for 10 minutes at FL 600mm - in fact I've only dropped 2 frames so far due to tracking errors.

I use the mount unattended most of the time and its 100% reliable so far - so far that's 12 sessions - so its still new stuff so long term reliability is still to be tested.

I've just posted a separate thread on the consequences of a pier crash - the results was NO loss of pointing accuracy even though the mount was driving the camera against the pier plate for 30 seconds before I got my wits back into gear and found the stop button (the original error is mine - I still need to set slew limits).

So all in all the mount services my needs 100% and exceeds my expectations. I guess the only issue might be the load limits but right now my scopes are well within bounds. The mobile and self sufficiency ticks are the prime reasons I got this mount.


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