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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255496 - 12/15/13 11:42 PM

Gday Ed

Quote:

Are they expected to supply a complete parts list,
specifications and design drawings for their mounts




I dunno that mentioning what encoder is in there would have any great effect on anything, esp in context with this thread.
People who really want to know how it works for ulterior motives would just buy one and reverse engineer it without telling anyone.
No stopping that.

Quote:

but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised?




I guess part of the fun here is if in certain circumstances,
it doesnt work as advertised.
Knowing a bit more about what may cause errors is always useful.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6255503 - 12/15/13 11:53 PM

Quote:

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.




"Astounded" in a good way I hope.

Of course that is why you keep some things as trade secrets.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #6255524 - 12/16/13 12:10 AM

Quote:

Gday Ed

Quote:

Are they expected to supply a complete parts list,
specifications and design drawings for their mounts




I dunno that mentioning what encoder is in there would have any great effect on anything, esp in context with this thread.
People who really want to know how it works for ulterior motives would just buy one and reverse engineer it without telling anyone.
No stopping that.

Quote:

but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised?




I guess part of the fun here is if in certain circumstances,
it doesnt work as advertised.
Knowing a bit more about what may cause errors is always useful.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia




Hey Andrew,

I don't think that mentioning the type or specification of the encoder has any meaning here, but making it available is not a decision that is up to me and a manufacturer has a right to keep confidential what it wants to. There is another manufacturer out there who posts perhaps more information on the internal guts of their mounts but then they turn around and accuse others of steeling their ideas on the basis that they made so much information public in the first place. Is that how to protect ideas? Make everything public (but not patented) and then say that no one can do anything similar or use any of the same materials without it being a copy? I don't really get that.

Certainly no way to stop someone from reverse engineering something. But at least they have to spend the money on one first. Even patents don't protect you very well on an international basis. When I was at ASAE one of the people that I work with over at one of the mass-manufacturers came over and was looking at the Avalon mounts and said that they should buy one and reverse engineer it (I probably had an interesting look on my face). But then he also admitted that they couldn't build it to match.

If something doesn't work as advertised in this level of equipment, that should not be the customer's problem to solve. That's like telling me I should fix my Volvo myself if something happens to the engine.


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255547 - 12/16/13 12:32 AM

Gday Ed

Quote:

I don't think that mentioning the type or specification of the encoder has any meaning here



Dunno there.
After reading the original work OrlyAndico has been doing on this subject,
i for one would have been interested in his insights based on whats used.

Quote:

Is that how to protect ideas? Make everything public (but not patented) and then say that no one can do anything similar or use any of the same materials without it being a copy?




In the context of the "far east" its irrelevant.
If they want to do something, they will copy what they want,
patented or not, and as long as its cheaper than local,
people will buy it.
And lets face it, thats where 99% of the new stuff is now coming from.

Quote:

That's like telling me I should fix my Volvo myself if something happens to the engine.




If you owned a Volvo, then you should learn fix it yourself
as it would be too embarrasing to take it into a repairer

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6255786 - 12/16/13 08:16 AM

Quote:

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.






You get the point, but still miss a thing that you obviously notice without paying attention to :
The price .
How to avod costly absolute encoders ?: simple : make yours...and make a pattent with it... 10microns guys have been very smart on this.
the patent is on google, just find it (i let you find the correct search terms (PM me if you are lost ...:)


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6255930 - 12/16/13 09:57 AM

I'm sorry that I have created many doubts and questions after my message.
To the right of equality I have to say that Ed is a representative in the USA, of two major Italian companies manufacturer of mounts, 10micron and Avalon.

10micron I had the pleasure to speaking by phone with the producer of electronics, Avalon I personally know Luciano dal Sasso.

Both these companies are very important in other areas, apart from the astronomical stuff. These are NO small companies and especially have a Know How successful.

The cost of the Mount is simply expensive for two reasons:

- Quality
- Cost to import

In Europe, we are very used to paying double the price from dollars to euros because the taxes are very high here.

A Celestron CGE PRO cost 4500 bucks in the USA and in Italy two years ago, it cost 7,000.00 !

If 10Micron and Avalon they haven chosen Ed, probably because they transferred the right information for adequate assistance.

Today in a lot of business people use the Made in Italy " brand " for confirming the quality, even those who have no legitimacy to do, as when I go in Manhattan for eating the Pizza or Italian Restaurant and I couldn't see anyone Italian in the staff

I believe that the American market get used to receive these opportunities from new companies with happiness , because local producers will start to use the most competitive prices for not lose the market place.

Thanks
Gianluca

Edited by contedracula (12/16/13 09:59 AM)


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dgmoses
member


Reged: 12/31/12

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6257278 - 12/16/13 10:57 PM

From my experience, if Ed Thomas is going to service these mounts inside the USA, that is all I need to know about service/maintenance issues. All that matters now is whether the mount stacks up against its competition. From what I have read in the 10 Micron manual, AP had better look over their shoulder. Time will tell.

Don


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dgmoses]
      #6257466 - 12/17/13 02:36 AM

I believe that the origin of many questions is just the price. I hope at the next NEAF there will be a good match between Astro-Physics and 10micron

Thanks
Gianluca


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Dan McConaughy
sage


Reged: 11/11/06

Loc: LA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6264443 - 12/20/13 08:41 PM

How much do absolute encoders cost? They are a lot of money on an A-P.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6264624 - 12/20/13 11:11 PM

I have to take a moment to amplify this comment. Lots of people complain about how much the high end gear costs.

If you have ever really gotten into what is needed for making it, you become amazed at how cheap it is.

-Rich

Quote:

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.




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orlyandico
Post Laureate
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6264633 - 12/20/13 11:17 PM

The Renishaw ring alone is over $1500 new. Per axis. I never did figure out how much the read head is. But I figure that with AP charging $4000 per axis, there isn't much profit left.

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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6265522 - 12/21/13 03:43 PM

Is the encoder absolute or incrimental?

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: cloudywest]
      #6265547 - 12/21/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

Is the encoder absolute or incrimental?




Absolute (i.e., it is able to always tell where it is pointed).


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6266455 - 12/22/13 06:23 AM

The main cost for expensive encoders is in absolute encoders. Incremental ones are cheap, and are the sort of thing a CGEM uses.

Ed, does the GM2000HPS have the same control system as the GM1000HPS?

-Rich


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6266676 - 12/22/13 11:09 AM

Quote:

The main cost for expensive encoders is in absolute encoders. Incremental ones are cheap, and are the sort of thing a CGEM uses.

Ed, does the GM2000HPS have the same control system as the GM1000HPS?

-Rich




Yes, all four 10Micron mounts use the same control system.


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6266975 - 12/22/13 02:11 PM

Quote:

Incremental ones are cheap, and are the sort of thing a CGEM uses.



Maybe cheaper than absolute, but still very expensive. Renishaw incremental encoder is nearly $2000. I don't think it is sort of thing a CGEM uses.


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: contedracula]
      #6270047 - 12/24/13 07:10 AM

Quote:

I believe that the origin of many questions is just the price. I hope at the next NEAF there will be a good match between Astro-Physics and 10micron

Thanks
Gianluca




Price is not the only issue. AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again. That is exactly the way my 20-year-old LX200 works. I don't know how anyone can call that absolute. The 10micron mounts are absolute, you can turn it off, move the axis, pack it in the case, and it still knows where the axis are. Again, not so with the AP.
The surprise is AP relative encoders cost a fortune, and 1000HPS absolute encoders come for free. Go figure.


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dawziecat
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: Rural Nova Scotia
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270091 - 12/24/13 08:09 AM

Quote:


AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again.







Somebody who knows more than I about these things, please jump in here.

With respect to Pedro, is his statement not just categorically wrong?


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Bob Abraham
sage


Reged: 05/17/05

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6270246 - 12/24/13 09:50 AM

I don't own an AP mount with absolute encoders but from the discussion on the ap-gto Yahoo group, I believe Pedro is correct in the sense that the absolute encoders are on the worm shaft and the clutches are independent of the worm. So if you loosen the clutches you can move the scope without moving the worm, and then the absolute position would be wrong. You'd still get the benefit of cancellation of periodic errors though.

It seems to me that a disadvantage of AP's implementation of absolute encoders on their mounts is that it's not quite a totally foolproof design. (A clutchless mount with a fixed home position would never lose track of its mechanical position). But AP's design optimizes for flexibility, and is still pretty close to foolproof; if you're worried about clutches slipping then just tighten them down using an allen key rather than your fingers. Your mount then behaves like a clutchless mount and the absolute position will never be wrong... you just have to calibrate the home position once and you're done forever. And an advantage of the AP design is that you can can define the home position to be anywhere you want it to be.

Can somebody post a link to the manual for the absolute encoder system? I can't seem to locate it on the AP website.

Bob

Edited by Bob Abraham (12/24/13 10:11 AM)


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS [Re: dawziecat]
      #6270282 - 12/24/13 10:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:


AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again.







Somebody who knows more than I about these things, please jump in here.

With respect to Pedro, is his statement not just categorically wrong?




From Roland himself, ap-gto group, 17-Apr-2013:

"The encoders are tied to the worm gear, not to the clutched shaft, so if you loosen the clutches and move it by hand, you will have to reset the encoder positions. However, this has the advantage of always having the encoder tied directly to the worm gear teeth, so when you build up a pointing model, it will always be valid because you are not changing the relationship between the worm teeth and the encoder."

"The Mach1 does not have large enough shafts for the encoder rings. This mount was designed to be a lightweight, affordable, portable mount, and I would suggest that adding precision encoders will negate the affordability of this mount."

Note the encoders are absolute, the mount is not, because the encoders are not connected directly to the mount output shaft, but rather to the internal gear. Roland arguments on these two sentences do not convince me, and the proof is 10micron superior precision, which AP can only equal when connected to a PC.
So with AP you pay premium absolute encoders, but do not get absolute mount because of AP (poor in my opinion) design decision.


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