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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270300 - 12/24/13 10:24 AM

Strange arguments. If the encoders are on the worm axis they won't reduce PE and other mechanical mishaps, and the scope can get lost. Reset of the encoders would be based on some homing sensor, and how accurate are they???

I am confused.

/per


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6270308 - 12/24/13 10:27 AM

Quote:

if you're worried about clutches slipping then just tighten them down using an allen key rather than your fingers. Your mount then behaves like a clutchless mount and the absolute position will never be wrong...


Clutchless?
And give up panning by hand, with the mount computer (or PC) telling you where you are pointing? That is one of mine main pleasures in astronomy, manual (by hand not keypad) panning. I always wanted my LX200 to do that, 20-years later I want something better.
And being unable to move the mount when powered off?
No thanks.

Edited by pbsastro (12/24/13 10:30 AM)


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270376 - 12/24/13 11:08 AM

Quote:

Strange arguments. If the encoders are on the worm axis they won't reduce PE and other mechanical mishaps, and the scope can get lost. Reset of the encoders would be based on some homing sensor, and how accurate are they???

I am confused.

/per




For each axis (RA, DEC) there are 3 axis: axis 1 fixed, axis 2 which connects to axis 1 via gear, and axis 3 that conects to axis 2 via clutch. So if clutch is tightened axis 3 = axis 2 and all is equal to 10micron.
AP encoders measure axis 2 releative to axis 1, so if clutch is loose axis 3 is lost, and axis 3 is the output one, the one that matters.

Edited by pbsastro (12/24/13 11:35 AM)


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
*****

Reged: 04/30/03

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270397 - 12/24/13 11:16 AM

Quote:

If the encoders are on the worm axis they won't reduce PE and other mechanical mishaps




That's true. Of course, nobody would ever bother to do that since it would gain nothing. It has been clearly stated in this thread that the AP encoders connect to the worm gear, not to the worm.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6270479 - 12/24/13 11:48 AM

OK, enlighten me here as a non-native English speaker, which part is which is that mess? "Worm" is the roller and "Worm gear" the big wheel?

In the 10Micron mounts, the encoders are on the final axis, the the scope is on. That means that an uneven worm gear would be compensated for as the encoder is in the feedback loop to the motor controller.

/per


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Bob Abraham
sage


Reged: 05/17/05

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270523 - 12/24/13 12:04 PM

Hi Per,

Yes, the worm is the thing that looks sort-of like a screw (or a roller), and the worm gear is the thing that looks like a spur (or a wheel). But according to Wikipedia, it's common to mess this up: "The terminology is often confused by imprecise use of the term worm gear to refer to the worm, the worm gear, or the worm drive as a unit." I'm know I'm guilty of doing this!

Bob


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6270554 - 12/24/13 12:17 PM

Thanks!

Always looking to improve the command of the language, ever since 1975 when I went to high school in Albuquerque as an exchange student

/per


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Bob Abraham
sage


Reged: 05/17/05

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270560 - 12/24/13 12:21 PM

Hi Pedro,

Quote:

Quote:

if you're worried about clutches slipping then just tighten them down using an allen key rather than your fingers. Your mount then behaves like a clutchless mount and the absolute position will never be wrong...


Clutchless?
And give up panning by hand, with the mount computer (or PC) telling you where you are pointing? That is one of mine main pleasures in astronomy, manual (by hand not keypad) panning. I always wanted my LX200 to do that, 20-years later I want something better.
And being unable to move the mount when powered off?
No thanks.




Fair enough, I really enjoy slewing scopes around by hand too. I also enjoy occasionally finding things with analog setting circles... so I certainly see your point of view. But I think the arguments for AP's design choice (and for the truly clutchess mounts like the Paramount ME) are fundamentally quite sound, given that their main purpose is astrophotography (often via remote or even fully robotic operation). So I think for most people being able to loosen clutches and slew around by hand while maintaining absolution position information is not a priority. Of course, if it is a priority for you, then I guess it's not a good mount choice for you.

Bob

Edited by Bob Abraham (12/24/13 12:33 PM)


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dawziecat
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: Rural Nova Scotia
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270581 - 12/24/13 12:26 PM

Quote:


AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again.





My apologies, Pedro, for doubting your post. This is certainly news to me. Thanks for stating it succinctly enough to get my attention!


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Bob Abraham
sage


Reged: 05/17/05

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270602 - 12/24/13 12:39 PM

Quote:

Thanks!

Always looking to improve the command of the language, ever since 1975 when I went to high school in Albuquerque as an exchange student

/per




You're welcome, and your English is excellent (not to mention a million times better than my Swedish). Albuquerque is a neat place to visit - and a pretty big astronomy hub with the VLA and Apache Point relatively nearby - I bet you'd enjoy visiting it again!

Bob


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6270618 - 12/24/13 12:48 PM

Quote:

But I think the arguments for AP's design choice (and for the truly clutchess mounts like the Paramount ME) to be fundamentally quite sound, given that their main purpose is astrophotography (often via remote or even fully robotic operation).

Bob




Bob,
The argument would be sound if they would be giving up something (free movement) to gain something, I I do not see anything to be gained from AP design.
Roland says: "advantage of always having the encoder tied directly to the worm gear teeth, so when you build up a pointing model, it will always be valid because you are not changing the relationship between the worm teeth and the encoder."

He implies the model is not valid if the relation between the worm teeth and the encoder changes. That is not true because the model is made based on measures of the output axis, totally independent of the gear (worm or teeth). The gear is just a mean to get there, as it could be pushing it by hand, blowing or whatever. So I am sorry to say, but AP argument does not make any sense at all. That from theory only. The practice is 10micron.

Pedro


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6270661 - 12/24/13 01:21 PM

Quote:


My apologies, Pedro, for doubting your post. This is certainly news to me. Thanks for stating it succinctly enough to get my attention!




No problem Terry, few people are aware of that.
The new Skywatcher EQ8 Pro Synscan is a comparatively weak mount of course, but also allows free movement.

I have always been a big fan of AP. It was always number one for me, since 1994. However with time I have been disappointed with AP.
First with scopes, instead of selling them at the proper price they prefer to have 10+ years waiting lists with higher prices on the secondary market, and then making draws... I'm out of there.
Now with mounts. I sold my AP600E to buy a bigger AP mount. I wanted an AP mount because AP mounts are still the best by far concerning capacity/weight ratio. The 1100 has the same weight of 1000HPS but double capacity. The problem is 10micron is so much better everything else, that it was a big dilemma for me. Weight is crucial to me, the most important factor to me, because I have back injury. So it was very painful to me to have to choose 1000HPS over 1100. But no way I would pay that money for an outdated design mount. It is just not the encoders issue. It is the weak controller, and associated software making the mount so poor compared to 10micron. If one cares to read both manuals, we see that 10micron is much simpler, intuitive and powerful.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/24/13 01:31 PM)


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270946 - 12/24/13 04:07 PM

Hi Pedro and other 10 Micron mount users!

I have some questions about "full" PC control only. You can PM me if you like.

Does the 10 Micron ascom driver have a pointing model and variable tracking speed with the encoders? It shows on their site it can compensate for atmospheric refraction, can this be done through a PC and not the hand controller? Iím pretty much 100% PC based.. no hand controller.

I'm pretty sure I am going to sell my AP1600 with Encoders and get a 3000GPS. As Pedro stated above, AP has become, odd.. This is not a vendor bash but personal experience:

When you wait 10+ years for a scope that Roland only makes a few of, It would really chap my butt if they let people cut the line. AP sent out Christmas cards this year to its customers. Those customers that spent a certain amount received a cut the line pass to move up the list 10-25 spots! WOW!. Add a few more years to your wait list if you haven't spent major$$$ with AP.

#2 I heard this from a pretty reliable source. When their software developer has a disagreement with an end user, he told AP/Marj not to allow said user to participate in the APCC beta program. Straight up bully move. When I heard this, this was the straws that broke the camels back into why I totally regret buying an AP mount. When I post on the AP yahoo group or call, I feel segregated against. Sign of the times I guess.. But I don't have to support..

Like I said, this is from personal experience.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6271614 - 12/25/13 01:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks!

Always looking to improve the command of the language, ever since 1975 when I went to high school in Albuquerque as an exchange student

/per




You're welcome, and your English is excellent (not to mention a million times better than my Swedish). Albuquerque is a neat place to visit - and a pretty big astronomy hub with the VLA and Apache Point relatively nearby - I bet you'd enjoy visiting it again!

Bob





Yes, I do. I have been back so many times I lost count long ago

/per


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6271641 - 12/25/13 02:07 AM Attachment (24 downloads)

Skunky,

10Micron mounts keep the model in the mount. You do not need a PC to enjoy it. They have a good ASCOM driver but it arrived a bit late, so I developed my own and was ready before them. Today there are no issues with their driver and I still maintain mine. As the model is in the mount it is used for both tracking and pointing. The mount also compensates for atmospheric refraction.

A model can be built with the hand controller in the same manner as any mount's alignment procedure. Maximum model size is 100 points, which is boiled down to complex model terms (highest number of model terms I have seen is 23) which I think works like a curve-fit/trend-line in 3D spherical.

I wrote a utility that builds a model in a very short time using repeated exposures and PinPoint plate solves. It is now a mature freeware (or donorware if people want to donate) that 10Micron and Baader Planetarium feature on their web-site.

Tracking speed is variable/modeled in Ra and model controlled in Dec. It does support tracking of satellites, asteroids and comets that are in the database and it can be loaded with TLE files (orbit data). Once you have loaded the data into the mount with your PC you can let go of the PC.

Encoders are mounted on the actual axis (Ra and Dec) and are in the neighborhood of 12 million ticks per rev, which is equal to 0.108 arc-seconds. There are also encoders on the motors. The motor control feedback loop uses both encoders, motor and axis, in the control of the motor, so PE and other things are compensated for automatically.

The GM1000HPS is capable of slewing at 15į/s, the GM2000HPS 20į/s. The same maximum speeds can be used when tracking fast moving objects like satellites. In that case, the mount auto-flips during tracking - really fast. Neat feature

The GM1000HPS has a dual belt reduction stage before the worm, the bigger ones a single belt. So, one can say that they are a marriage of solid old high-precision mechanics and modern day technology like absolute encoders. The company that make the mounts, Comec, has been active in high precision mechanics for many years so they have the experience.

I stumbled upon 10Micron in early 2012 and bought a GM2000HPS ultra portable (you can split it in two halves, Ra and Dec) with their massice Centaur tripod and flight cases unseen. Never regretted that!

Below is an image of my GM2000HPS taken apart. It has the round control box which is no longer available. Instead, the rectangular detached box is what you get. They have also re-designed the exterior of the mount and changed to a single cable between the mount and the box, just like the GM1000HPS.

All the best and a Merry Christmas to all!

/per


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6271643 - 12/25/13 02:08 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

And... Comparison between my GM1000HPS and my GM2000HPS...

/per


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6271658 - 12/25/13 02:33 AM

Thanks Per.

I came across your site earlier today. I would be perm mounted and tied to a PC. I see software is available for any purpose I might choose to pursue. I'm looking into the new GM3000HPS


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6271717 - 12/25/13 05:00 AM

No worries!

The 3000 seems to be a nice addition to the family!

/per


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R Botero
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/02/09

Loc: Kent, England
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6271745 - 12/25/13 06:17 AM

Skunky

Quote:

Those customers that spent a certain amount received a cut the line pass to move up the list 10-25 spots! WOW!. Add a few more years to your wait list if you haven't spent major$$$ with AP.





I am sorry but you misread that thread on the Yahoo Group completely. It was a joke that was posted by an user and others followed up and even Roland and Marj Christen joined in jest. They were throwing around models of scopes that they'd be getting...it was clearly harmless fun...

Roberto


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS [Re: Skunky]
      #6272219 - 12/25/13 01:28 PM

Skunky, I have my 1000 HPS only for 3 months now, and did not use it yet connected to a PC. Per is the 10micron guru and always uses it connected to a PC, so he is the perfect person to help you on all PC control matters, besides writing great software of his own to 10micron mounts which are very popular with 10micron users.

Pedro


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