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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6272745 - 12/25/13 09:09 PM

Well, the MEII has a 240lb. capacity and for $21,500, slightly more than the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 100lbs more capacity. And Mathis Instruments MI500 for the same price as the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 180lbs capacity. So there are alternatives that have all the goodies.

I don't ever see myself having a scope that requires a mount with that much capacity. But if I did, I'd probably go with Mathis Instruments. I just like the design.

David


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6272932 - 12/25/13 11:50 PM

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.

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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6273043 - 12/26/13 02:20 AM

Quote:

Well, the MEII has a 240lb. capacity and for $21,500, slightly more than the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 100lbs more capacity.
David




David,

As far as I can tell they have not yet released a version of the ME-II with encoders. Any news on when that may be available?

/per


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6273426 - 12/26/13 11:07 AM

Quote:

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.




True. But if you want counterweights, a power supply and a saddle, the price starts to climb. Just sayin'.

David


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6273436 - 12/26/13 11:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, the MEII has a 240lb. capacity and for $21,500, slightly more than the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 100lbs more capacity.
David




David,

As far as I can tell they have not yet released a version of the ME-II with encoders. Any news on when that may be available?

/per




I was going by this. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the information.

David


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Tonk
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Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6273503 - 12/26/13 11:48 AM

Quote:

I was going by this. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the information.




Am I reading that right - an additional $4,000 extra per axis to fit absolute encoders? or is it just $4,000 for both encoders?


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dawziecat
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: Rural Nova Scotia
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6273537 - 12/26/13 12:03 PM

Quote:

Am I reading that right - an additional $4,000 extra per axis to fit absolute encoders? or is it just $4,000 for both encoders?




Seems pretty clear.
Quote:

On-Axis Encoder Options...
Cost to upgrade each axis is $4000.




Pretty comparable to what Astrophysics charge too.

The price of admission to the world of quality AEs is daunting!


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Tonk
Postmaster
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Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6273560 - 12/26/13 12:16 PM

Glad I got the GM 1000 HPS then! For that axis encoder upgrade cost alone I got a whole working mount with abs encoders, mount controller + counter weights. A small/lightweight scope policy sometimes works for you

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6273602 - 12/26/13 12:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was going by this. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the information.




Am I reading that right - an additional $4,000 extra per axis to fit absolute encoders? or is it just $4,000 for both encoders?




Yup...it isn't cheap. My guess is that if you order a mount and request the encoders, they pull one off the assembly process or shelf and have it sent to a specified machinist that does the added work. And then it has to be integrated electronically. It puts the price right up there with the mounts that have encoders installed from the beginning.

David


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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6273788 - 12/26/13 02:40 PM

I'm a bit late, but I wanted to jump in and clarify erroneous information about the AP encoders.

I don't have encoders for my AP1600, but I have closely followed the discussion on the AP user groups about them. They are most definitely absolute encoders. Any claim to the contrary is categorically wrong.

You can cut power to the mount randomly and they won't get lost. You can release the clutches and move the mount randomly and they won't get lost.

What is different about the way that AP implements their software is (as near as I can tell), is that AP's mount control firmware works the same way with or without encoders. That is to say that, without encoders, the pointing, tracking, alignment, etc. assumes a perfect mechanical system. When you add the encoders, everything works exactly the same way, except that the encoders ensure a perfect mechanical system to within the tolerances of the encoders.

If you are looking for a feature that allows you to release the clutches and swing the mount without losing sky alignment, I don't believe that the AP encoders support this. The system is designed to work with the clutches locked at all times.

If the clutches do slip and you have encoders, you can recover the sky alignment (because the encoders *are* absolute). To do this, you would send a command to have the mount to move to a (user selectable) physical home position, which it will do with sub arc second accuracy. Then you do a sync and you will be aligned with the sky again.

From what I read about the 10Micron stuff, this is a completely different implementation. The AP encoders are designed to enable a highly robust remote installation.
They are also designed to be user installable and to allow the user to initialize the reference positions without having to send the mount back to AP.

I don't want to drag the thread further off topic, so I'll go back to reading about the 10Micron mount. If people want to discuss the AP system further, someone should start a new thread. I just wanted to clear up the misinformation that's already here.


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6273974 - 12/26/13 04:32 PM

What you're saying, Wade, is that say, for instance, you have the mount all set up with a good pointing model doing its thing like an AP mount can. You get a new piece of equipment and have to balance it which means that you have to release the clutches.

Your description sounds to me like you have a preselected homing position that the mount will seek when commanded to do so. At that point, all is well with the pointing model and you just go back to imaging or viewing. If that's the case, then the AP mount should be just fine in a remote operation. Did I get that right?

Question: I don't have encoders on my MI250, but what I do have is pinstripe tape. What?! What I did was just indexed the Dec. and RA axes with the pinstripe tape and when I have to release the clutches for whatever reason (mount has to be off), all I do is place the two axes at their indexed points, make sure that the clutches are tight, turn on the mount, enable SiTech, tell SiTech to goto a star, when it gets there, I center and sync it and the mount has no idea that the axes have been fooled with.

Does the AP mount, once set up, have to be in a specific spot to home properly or will it home no matter the position?

Thanks!

David


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6273990 - 12/26/13 04:42 PM

I have some comments about all the secrecy in designs.

As an electronics technician for over 30 years it is
something that has always bugged me & is getting worse.
In the "good old days " you could get a circuit diagram &
component overlay to help find the parts on the PCB - by law.
This has all changed & even if you're inside a company repairing
their products it can be very difficult to get information.
The information is often out of date & doesn't reflect changes or revisions.
Forget about getting source code for firmware.
That's always held at Fort Knox in a safe - not even technicians can get it.
Often the faults occur in the same areas & that's why the revisions are made.
In other words - just what you need to know about is not on the circuit.

Then comes quality & reliability.
High quality circuit boards have their solder via holes filled with solder
to strengthen them & the whole boards are usually masked & conformally coated
at the factory to keep moisture out.
Moisture is a killer of electronics especially when it is
exposed to outside conditions - the situation of all mounts.
Wouldn't you like to know if your printed circuit board is conformally coated?

Another thing that worries me are those rubber toothed belts.
Are they a standard size that can be replaced easily?
I've seen tiny belts in mounts that stretch & get torn to pieces after many years of use.
I would want to quickly get a new belt & replace it myself & not have
to send a whole mount overseas for a 5 minute replacement job.
Some belts are inside slip rings ( rotating electrical connecting rings )
& are difficult to replace.
Wouldn't you like to know more about the rubber belts in the mount before you buy it?

I would also like to know the part numbers of all integrated circuits on PCBs -
people would be surprised at how quickly parts go obsolete.
It used to be 20 years & now it can be in a matter of 5 years.
That could mean a whole mount is un-repairable if some obscure part is used that breaks down from a $10 integrated circuit.
If you don't have a circuit you can't even modify it for a later part to be used.
I've heard a rumour that absolute encoders can get dirt or dust on them & become unusable.
Are the encoders protected from this?

Maybe we should all bear this in mind when buying a secret mount?
On the other hand - all the manufacturers are secretive so we don't have much choice.


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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6274013 - 12/26/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

Your description sounds to me like you have a preselected homing position that the mount will seek when commanded to do so. At that point, all is well with the pointing model and you just go back to imaging or viewing. If that's the case, then the AP mount should be just fine in a remote operation. Did I get that right?




That is my understanding.

Quote:

Does the AP mount, once set up, have to be in a specific spot to home properly or will it home no matter the position?




I went back to the messages, to be sure I got this right. According to Roland, there is a routine that you run once (presumably per installation) so that the encoders know how your scope is oriented to the mount. Once this is done, you can - at any time (without having to see the sky) - press the home key, and then calibrate (same as other mounts sync). From then on, you are good to go.

One correction from my previous post is that it appears that the physical home for the mount will be park 3, which is scope pointed north and counterweight down. You can still park the mount in any chosen position, but for the purpose of recalibrating the encoders, it uses park 3.


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6274150 - 12/26/13 06:24 PM

correct and yes.

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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6274155 - 12/26/13 06:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.




True. But if you want counterweights, a power supply and a saddle, the price starts to climb. Just sayin'.

David




That's with an AP mount or SB mount too regardless.

ap1600 with encoders is $18,660 with no counterweights, dovetail, power supply, saddle, etc.


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
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Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6274231 - 12/26/13 07:13 PM

Quote:

I'm a bit late, but I wanted to jump in and clarify erroneous information about the AP encoders.
They are most definitely absolute encoders. Any claim to the contrary is categorically wrong.





There was no erroneous information. It was said:
"Note the encoders are absolute, the mount is not, because the encoders are not connected directly to the mount output shaft, but rather to the internal gear.
So with AP you pay premium absolute encoders, but do not get absolute mount because of AP (poor in my opinion) design decision. "

Quote:

You can release the clutches and move the mount randomly and they won't get lost.



Of course it does get lost. You say so here:
Quote:

If you are looking for a feature that allows you to release the clutches and swing the mount without losing sky alignment, I don't believe that the AP encoders support this. The system is designed to work with the clutches locked at all times.




Quote:

If the clutches do slip and you have encoders, you can recover the sky alignment (because the encoders *are* absolute). To do this, you would send a command to have the mount to move to a (user selectable) physical home position, which it will do with sub arc second accuracy. Then you do a sync and you will be aligned with the sky again.



You say you can recover alignment because encoders are absolute, but then you say it recovers because it does a home. These are contradictory statements.
If you have to do home that is not absolute behavior, that is how relative encoders work, going home to sync.

Quote:

I just wanted to clear up the misinformation that's already here.



I'm afraid the misinformation comes from your contradictory statements above.

Pedro


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6274555 - 12/26/13 10:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.




True. But if you want counterweights, a power supply and a saddle, the price starts to climb. Just sayin'.

David




That's with an AP mount or SB mount too regardless.

ap1600 with encoders is $18,660 with no counterweights, dovetail, power supply, saddle, etc.




Note that I didn't include AP mounts in my posts.

Included hardware with the MEII. Click on Included Items: Link.

And the included hardware with the MI500 (not sure if the saddle is included). Click on Included Items: Link.

David


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6274666 - 12/27/13 12:04 AM

Quote:


Note that I didn't include AP mounts in my posts.

Included hardware with the MEII. Click on Included Items: Link.

And the included hardware with the MI500 (not sure if the saddle is included). Click on Included Items: Link.






meII, $13,500 +$6000 for encoders =$19,500 + counterweights, dovetail, power supply, etc..

MI500 MI-500 German Mount $14,200 + $5,600 = $19,200 + counterweights, dovetail, power supply, etc..

The OP asked about a GM2000HPS which is with encoders, your going to have to add in the encoder option on those mounts if were comparing apples to apples here...

The GM2000HPS is not in the same class as an ap1600, MEII or Mi-500... DOH!

to the admins!


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6274725 - 12/27/13 01:22 AM

About the ME-II even having decoders, the note that they"will be available in late 2013" is still on the Bisque site, with a price tag of $3000, while Optcorp qoutes $4000. Both are per axis and there is no definite details on availability.

The encoders will only take away PE and flex if used with Protrack, their in-PC software for modeling the sky.

With the GM2000HPS you have all that in-mount and ancoders have been available for two or three years, and hence is aready a mature design.

I still think the 10MIcron way is the best. PLease note, however, that the AP is an old-school reduction gear and worm solution, while the Bisque and 10Micron are both belt reduction and worm, alas a bit more modern.

I saw some note about belts not being as reliable as gears, but that is not a statement I subscribe to.

/per


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6274780 - 12/27/13 02:46 AM

Looks like the 10Micron campaign is in full speed again

They are all "old technology" 10Micron, Bisque and AP. The only "new way" of building a mount is the ASA way.However, that doesn't mean mounts can't be built reliably with worm gears and belts. Bisque and AP are very good examples of that. They have a track record both ASA and 10Micron can only dream about.

A high quality mount is a sum of all parts not just trying to highlight some details. E.g. ASA mounts Renishaw encoders are capable of resolving 0.01 arc sec and 10Micron "only" 0.1. So are ASA mounts 10 times better than 10Micron ? I doubt it. ...better but not 10 times


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