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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Tonk
Postmaster
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Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6274841 - 12/27/13 04:33 AM

Quote:

The only "new way" of building a mount is the ASA way




Looks like the ASA campaign is in full speed again


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6274875 - 12/27/13 06:35 AM

Depends on which way you look at it. AP-campaign, SB-campaign, 10M-campaign.

We all like what we have and most of us have good reasons for our choices.

/per


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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
*****

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6275116 - 12/27/13 10:27 AM

I surrender. If and when the time comes, I'll buy a Mathis or an SB. I'll bet on their LONG track records.

David


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frolinmod
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/06/10

Loc: Southern California
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6275219 - 12/27/13 11:42 AM

Quote:

+ counterweights, dovetail saddle, power supply, etc..



Just wanted to mention:

1. With the MEII, all of the above are already included in the base price. For instance, you receive two counterweights each of which are 14 Kg (30 lbs). But if you're buying this mount for its weight capacity, you probably need a few more.

2. The MEII has already gone up in price considerably from it's introductory price, which was a real bargain at the time. Unfortunately the price is going up even more very soon. If you're in the market for an MEII, best to purchase one now.


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: frolinmod]
      #6275506 - 12/27/13 02:50 PM

Well asas are pretty and with nice technology, so sad that it takes two hours to setup in the field... ( )

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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6275552 - 12/27/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Well asas are pretty and with nice technology, so sad that it takes two hours to setup in the field... ( )




Even though this is only meant as a provocation, just in case someone is taking it seriously...

...setting up ASA in the field doesn't take any longer than other mounts. As a matter of fact, it's the opposite because most of the procedures can be automated. If someone is using 2 hours setting things up, it's his way of doing things and not a general rule. So please no cheap shots...


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6275593 - 12/27/13 03:30 PM

just was jocking GIR, but was also reapeting some asa's user report, certainly not a trained one.

We are very lucky in these days to have such choice in fine technologies to play with.


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Jeff B
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/30/06

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6276887 - 12/28/13 10:05 AM

You bet.

This seems to be an imaging-centric discussion concerning the encoders. For us visual guys, it's just not an issue, though it would be nice to hand slew the scope around without it getting lost.

But even then, all I do is return to the last star I recalibrated on (AP mount), center it in the high power x-hair eyepiece and slew from there. Takes hardly anytime at all.

Jeff


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Jeff B]
      #6277176 - 12/28/13 12:50 PM

Quote:

This seems to be an imaging-centric discussion concerning the encoders. For us visual guys, it's just not an issue, though it would be nice to hand slew the scope around without it getting lost.

But even then, all I do is return to the last star I recalibrated on (AP mount), center it in the high power x-hair eyepiece and slew from there. Takes hardly anytime at all.

Jeff



Quite the opposite. I am 90% a visual guy. And 10micron encoders make all the difference there. For all-time-PC operation or remote operation there is not much difference between 10micron and AP+encoders. Although there Per is the expert, he can tell better. What it concerns to me most, keypad operated mount, and visual, 10micron makes all the difference, because of the superior 10micron controller and software, while a PC can override most of it.
For example if you want to pan the sky and want the mount tell you what you are pointing at, how can you sync the mount if neither of you know where it is pointing? With AP, the mount is blind you are the dog (that needs to sync it), with 10micron, you can be blind, the mount is your dog.
Also, I am 50% solar guy, 10micron is much more convenient for daytime alignment and operation.
There are many other use cases, comparing both manuals tells a lot.
Of course you can do all with the AP. With first cars, you needed to get out out of the car, and turn a hand-level manually in order to start the engine. But it worked fine, just a few more seconds, not significant, and owners were very happy with them, as they were the best thing in the world.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/28/13 01:39 PM)


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Jeff B
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/30/06

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277474 - 12/28/13 04:00 PM

Well true that, which is why I said it would be nice to have a closed-loop system. But not necessary, especially at the asking prices of the 10 Micron stuff.

However, I've noticed that such features are starting to show up on cheaper items like the new Orion Atlas mount and some of their goto dobs.

As you pan around by hand, do any errors accumulate?

I wish AP and others had similar, less expensive offerings.


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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277588 - 12/28/13 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This seems to be an imaging-centric discussion concerning the encoders. For us visual guys, it's just not an issue, though it would be nice to hand slew the scope around without it getting lost.

But even then, all I do is return to the last star I recalibrated on (AP mount), center it in the high power x-hair eyepiece and slew from there. Takes hardly anytime at all.

Jeff



Quite the opposite. I am 90% a visual guy. And 10micron encoders make all the difference there. For all-time-PC operation or remote operation there is not much difference between 10micron and AP+encoders. Although there Per is the expert, he can tell better. What it concerns to me most, keypad operated mount, and visual, 10micron makes all the difference, because of the superior 10micron controller and software, while a PC can override most of it.
For example if you want to pan the sky and want the mount tell you what you are pointing at, how can you sync the mount if neither of you know where it is pointing? With AP, the mount is blind you are the dog (that needs to sync it), with 10micron, you can be blind, the mount is your dog.
Also, I am 50% solar guy, 10micron is much more convenient for daytime alignment and operation.
There are many other use cases, comparing both manuals tells a lot.
Of course you can do all with the AP. With first cars, you needed to get out out of the car, and turn a hand-level manually in order to start the engine. But it worked fine, just a few more seconds, not significant, and owners were very happy with them, as they were the best thing in the world.

Pedro




For outreach events and star parties (100% visual), my $450 (used price) CG5-GT can put any object in the FOV on either side of the meridian all night long with a simple 2/4 star alignment. No super duper encoders needed. Jeff's observation is essentially a good one. For visual work for 99% of us, good ole' archaic goto mounts work very well, indeed.

No, you can't release the clutches and have the mount find itself after, but why would you want to hand slew a GOTO MOUNT? At any rate, this conversation is geared toward imaging since there is no need to be concerned about PE when viewing M42 through a 27 Panoptic.

David


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Peter in Reno
Postmaster
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Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6277670 - 12/28/13 05:41 PM

My number one priority for purchasing a mount is smooth and low PE tracking plus minimal to no backlash in both axes (especially Dec axis). Previously I had Atlas EQ-G GEM and Celestron CPC0800 mounted on Mitty wedge and I find them reasonably okay for imaging but I always had to throw out about 25% to 50% of total subs due to rough tracking and excessive backlash. When I upgraded to A-P Mach1GTO, it was day and night. The tracking is so smooth that PHD Guiding hardly makes corrections during autoguiding session. Also backlash in both axes was nearly non-existent. Goto's was my second priority since just about any mount will find objects in FOV of eyepiece or camera. Now I have an A-P1100GTO and I am looking forward to super smooth tracking.

Without smooth tracking and minimal to no backlash in both axes, it would be difficult to get 100% success rate for every sub captured. Aren't smooth tracking and minimal to no backlash most important?

Since my setup is always portable, I really don't need good pointing model. Polar alignment with A-P mounts is so easy and quick, then all I have to do is slew to a known star nearest to target DSO for imaging, center the star, Recalibrate (sync if you will) and finally slew to target DSO. Target DSO is always dead center of camera's FOV. Then the super smooth tracking gears of A-P mount will take care of the rest. 99% of the time I am ready for imaging BEFORE the sky is totally dark.

It's not clear whether the OP plan to have permanently installed in observatory. If it's permanent, then it's obvious that absolute encoders would be ideal despite higher cost. Wouldn't a mount without absolute encoders but has homing position be enough for remote operation. If the mount loses it's current position and is blind, wouldn't homing the mount remotely be enough? Can't A-P mount with absolute encoders do this if the operator previously pre-selected homing position? Since this is remote operation, why would you want to manually move the mount?

Astro-Physics has fantastic track record for service and support. Since I live in USA, it makes sense to get made in USA products. If you live in Europe, it would make sense to get European made products for service and support. If people claim that 10 Micron mounts are just as good as A-P mounts, then I would buy one that's made where it's closest to your home location.

Peter


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6277770 - 12/28/13 06:25 PM

Quote:

For outreach events and star parties (100% visual), my $450 (used price) CG5-GT can put any object in the FOV on either side of the meridian all night long with a simple 2/4 star alignment. No super duper encoders needed. Jeff's observation is essentially a good one. For visual work for 99% of us, good ole' archaic goto mounts work very well, indeed.



I personally do not care about outreach events and star parties, but if I did I certainty would not be looking for top-end equipment as AP or 10M.

Quote:

No, you can't release the clutches and have the mount find itself after, but why would you want to hand slew a GOTO MOUNT? At any rate, this conversation is geared toward imaging since there is no need to be concerned about PE when viewing M42 through a 27 Panoptic.




Who needs GOTO? Not me. Fortunately I have both arms and hands perfect functional, and I find more convenient the way my DM6 tells me where to move the scope by hand. Only thing missing there is tracking, including planet, comet and satellite tracking. For imaging, where we point at very few (if more than one) targets per night, GOTO is even less necessary. GOTO is necessary only for remote operation, which I do not do nor will ever do.
I never liked the feeling of the mount moving and me checking in the dark if I forgot something that will cause an accident. Much more comfortable to move it manually. Not to mention I quite enjoy the feeling of moving a heavy scope perfectly balanced with the tip of my fingers. If on top of that the mount tells where I am, and the direction to move to get my target, that is my game.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/28/13 06:28 PM)


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277807 - 12/28/13 06:45 PM

Pedro, so you are prepared to pay few thousands $ just to be able to know mount position when you move your mount manually?
Well, not me for sure...

For just visual, absolute encoders are just wasting money, they have absolutely no use for visual (except for that you described).
For imaging on the other hand GOTO is essential and absolute encoders are welcome add-on.


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orion69]
      #6277868 - 12/28/13 07:24 PM

Knez, I think you have not read with attention.

Quote:

Pedro, so you are prepared to pay few thousands $ just to be able to know mount position when you move your mount manually?
Well, not me for sure...



First I also do imaging. Second, encoders have other advantages for visual use, including alignment. Third, the 1000HPS the encoders come for free.

Quote:

For imaging on the other hand GOTO is essential.



Really? If not remote operation, GOTO is completely unnecessary. You should be confusing GOTO with the mount telling you where an object is.


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crow
sage


Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277927 - 12/28/13 08:02 PM

Given the price of the mount the encoders are hardly free. As far as I can tell a Mach 1 is 2700 dollars cheaper?

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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: crow]
      #6277938 - 12/28/13 08:09 PM

Quote:

Given the price of the mount the encoders are hardly free. As far as I can tell a Mach 1 is 2700 dollars cheaper?



In Europe, 1000HPS and Mach1 price are exactly the same, and Knez and I are both based in Europe.


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crow
sage


Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277949 - 12/28/13 08:15 PM

I'm aware of that, I'm originally from europe myself. If I was there the 10 micron would be the winner.

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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278050 - 12/28/13 09:13 PM

Quote:


First I also do imaging. Second, encoders have other advantages for visual use, including alignment. Third, the 1000HPS the encoders come for free.

Really? If not remote operation, GOTO is completely unnecessary. You should be confusing GOTO with the mount telling you where an object is.




I'm really puzzled now...

For visual, GOTO alignment is important if you use GOTO, precise polar alignment for visual is completely unnecessary, rough polar alignment is more than enough. Don't tell me you'll use TPoint for visual?

As for imaging, looks like you are doing some different imaging than me... GOTO is extremely important when imaging for framing particularly with plate solving, refocusing when no suitable star is present near imaging object, finding object with controlling software etc...

Edited by orion69 (12/28/13 09:20 PM)


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6278053 - 12/28/13 09:13 PM

Quote:

My number one priority for purchasing a mount is smooth and low PE tracking plus minimal to no backlash in both axes (especially Dec axis).




Peter, if no Dec backlash is one of your priorities, AP talks about encoders and PE and Dec backlash on their AP1100 website page video (minute 11:40).
Those AP mounts are mechanical works of art, very nice to watch the full video, but the part at 11:40 is the best advertisement on the 1000HPS. I saw that video on the period I was making my decision (Mach1 or AP1100 or 1000HPS, one of the three was for sure), and that video part helped a little towards the 1000HPS. In your case, it may push you to add encoders to your 1100.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/28/13 09:53 PM)


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