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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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dgmoses
member


Reged: 12/31/12

10 Micron GM2000HPS
      #6251149 - 12/13/13 03:28 PM

I'm considering purchasing this mount. At $20K a pop I'd like to know more about it than the manufacturer's fluff. Does anyone know anything about this mount? Do you own one? How do you like it?

Don


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bseltzer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 10/28/07

Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dgmoses]
      #6251407 - 12/13/13 05:41 PM

I've no experience at all with any part of the 10 Micron line nor do I know any one that has. But it occurs to me that if you've got a $20K budget, I can think of at least 4 more 'mainstream' vendors that produce top flight mounts at or near that price point. Have you looked the offerings from say, ASA, Astro-Physics, Software Bisque, or Parallax? If so, I'd be interested to know why you found them wanting.

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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dgmoses]
      #6251426 - 12/13/13 05:53 PM

From what I've read, they are good mounts, but not many in the states. For your budget and depending on what you're going to be mounting, there's a LOT of mounts out there that have long track records. I would add Mathis Instruments to the mix as well.

David


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SPACEMAN
sage


Reged: 01/30/05

Loc: grömme,Belgium
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6252343 - 12/14/13 09:45 AM

I have this mount now for 2 years and i LOVE IT!!! It suchs an advanced mount! Really good build quality. I use it for comet observing. the software is really advanced, and the speed / noise is really nice! Sounds very good. Finishing touch is great.
You can make a pointing model up to 100 stars without the use of a computer!!!


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: SPACEMAN]
      #6252437 - 12/14/13 10:52 AM

And I have the GM1000HPS and the GM2000HPS. Wouldn't want anything else as I like imaging unguided and have done one-hour subs with the 2000. The sky model is in the mount, a feature unique to 10Micron, so it doesn't even need a computer to track and point within single digit arcseconds.

I believe there is ample support to be had from the new US rep so that wouldn't be a show stopper in my book.

My very personal opinion is that many of the top-end mounts are slightly dated in design. They have held the throne for a long time and now have some serious competition from modern mounts.

Oh, final note: don't get anything that doesn't have absolute encoders from the factory.

/per


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dgmoses
member


Reged: 12/31/12

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dgmoses]
      #6254081 - 12/15/13 09:48 AM

Thanks to all who commented on this mount. I might add that the $20K price includes everything; case, weights, tripod, etc. This is in line with what an AP1100GTO with absolute encoders would cost. It would seem this is a relatively new mount to the US market, and so not much in the way of owner experience on this side of the pond. Should I purchase one I'll certainly report my experiences with it.

Don


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6254311 - 12/15/13 11:31 AM

I'm Italian and know very well the 10micron,

The is very good product but the cost / performance ratio here in USA is too unattractive.

If you live in Europe the purchase is a good choice because the assistance is directed, instead you buy in US I have too many doubts for it, with the assistance 6k miles away I think is not the right choice.
For now, I still prefer my Astro-Physics

Besides, spend 20000 bucks for tracking the ISS, no thanks!

Thanks
Gianluca


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guyroch
Vendor (BackyardEOS)
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Reged: 01/22/08

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: contedracula]
      #6254354 - 12/15/13 11:58 AM

I believe any North and South America customers could buy it from Deep Space Products in the US and get good support from Ed.

http://www.deepspaceproducts.com/mounts_8_4232.html

I have no affiliation with Deep Space Products, just though I'd throw that it since support was mentioned.

Guylain


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: guyroch]
      #6254532 - 12/15/13 01:41 PM

ED iis a great professional and I've bought many things from him with great communication. But a 10micron Mount can't be assisted by phone or email in case of necessity.

If you have a serious problem, probably the Mount should be sent to Italy
Thanks
Gianluca


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: contedracula]
      #6254542 - 12/15/13 01:48 PM

I firmly believe in two things

- Astro-Physics is not competitive in Europe, because the cost is too high after import
- 10micron is not competitive in the US for the same reason

But are both two FineArt products with many " Loyal Consumers "

Thanks
Gianluca

Edited by contedracula (12/15/13 01:49 PM)


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: contedracula]
      #6254594 - 12/15/13 02:28 PM

Quote:

ED iis a great professional and I've bought many things from him with great communication. But a 10micron Mount can't be assisted by phone or email in case of necessity.

If you have a serious problem, probably the Mount should be sent to Italy
Thanks
Gianluca




Besides my support here in the US, the mounts can also be connected to and diagnosed remotely from here or Italy. It's a lot easier to do that today than it was not very long ago.

Edited by EFT (12/15/13 03:22 PM)


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6254712 - 12/15/13 03:55 PM

It's true and this can be solved if it is a software problem, but if not?
The mounts who have had problems, purchased by amateur astronomers in Italy ( two friends of mine ) were shipped to 10micron warehouse, in fact the diagnosis identifies the problem but if this is serious cannot be resolved remotely.

When I had problems with an AP1200, in Italy anyone has been able to resolve the problem directly, but only after the intervention, before of Baader and after the Rolando's staff in USA.

So, my opinion is not against 10micron but it's an objective difficulty when you purchase a product CONUS non-native.

This is acceptable with a low cost product, as Chinese brand, but if I buy a Zonda or a RR, I pretend the car service in my home garden

Thanks
Gianluca


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: contedracula]
      #6254965 - 12/15/13 06:14 PM

Hardware problems can also be diagnosed remotely to a certain level. Regardless, I will be handling servicing in the US, not just sales, so if someone somehow manages to drop their mount out the back of their truck or otherwise mess it up, it will be coming to me for service. You can't really expect to sell equipment like this on any kind of competitive basis without having support on the same continent and we understand that. The idea is to have the service be smoother than the problem you had with the other manufacturer, if it is ever required. There is no way that anyone is going to want to send a GM2000HPS back and forth across the Atlantic if some kind of service is needed. We not only sell, we represent 10Micron in the US on this basis.

Edited by EFT (12/15/13 09:35 PM)


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255203 - 12/15/13 08:40 PM

So, Ed, have you had a look inside?

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6255244 - 12/15/13 09:05 PM

Quote:

So, Ed, have you had a look inside?

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?




You don't take apart a mount like these just for fun and yes, the internal specifications are not for me to divulge.


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Raginar
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Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255382 - 12/15/13 10:21 PM

Lol!

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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6255400 - 12/15/13 10:33 PM

Quote:

So, Ed, have you had a look inside?

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?



They are paranoid. It is amazing that they let Ed make user manuals available for download. Try to find user manuals on their website. A very weird company.


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orlyandico
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Alph]
      #6255436 - 12/15/13 11:00 PM

I'm inclined to believe it's because there's a thoroughly pedestrian off-the-shelf encoder inside. Nothing wrong with that, but it would reveal that anybody with a Renishaw, Heidenhain, or Stegmann catalog can produce an encoder mount. The magic is getting it out the door at a certain price, because throwing enough money at something will always buy better performance.

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Alph]
      #6255457 - 12/15/13 11:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So, Ed, have you had a look inside?

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?



They are paranoid. It is amazing that they let Ed make user manuals available for download. Try to find user manuals on their website. A very weird company.




Nothing paranoid about it. Some of their competitors are already taking pot shots at them. Are they expected to supply a complete parts list, specifications and design drawings for their mounts in a competitive environment when they design something that no one else if offering? I will see if maybe I can pass on some more information on the encoder, but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised? I know that many of us are curious about the inner workings of products, but besides that innate curiosity, the only reason to know some things is so that they can be passed on and copied by competitors (something that is thought to happen on a frequent basis in certain Far Eastern countries). A smart company does not always give away all its secrets. For those that really know about absolute encoders, they know that there aren't many companies out there that provide them and could probably come up with a short list of the possible suspects in this case pretty quickly.


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255460 - 12/15/13 11:22 PM

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 11/30/10

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255496 - 12/15/13 11:42 PM

Gday Ed

Quote:

Are they expected to supply a complete parts list,
specifications and design drawings for their mounts




I dunno that mentioning what encoder is in there would have any great effect on anything, esp in context with this thread.
People who really want to know how it works for ulterior motives would just buy one and reverse engineer it without telling anyone.
No stopping that.

Quote:

but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised?




I guess part of the fun here is if in certain circumstances,
it doesnt work as advertised.
Knowing a bit more about what may cause errors is always useful.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6255503 - 12/15/13 11:53 PM

Quote:

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.




"Astounded" in a good way I hope.

Of course that is why you keep some things as trade secrets.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #6255524 - 12/16/13 12:10 AM

Quote:

Gday Ed

Quote:

Are they expected to supply a complete parts list,
specifications and design drawings for their mounts




I dunno that mentioning what encoder is in there would have any great effect on anything, esp in context with this thread.
People who really want to know how it works for ulterior motives would just buy one and reverse engineer it without telling anyone.
No stopping that.

Quote:

but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised?




I guess part of the fun here is if in certain circumstances,
it doesnt work as advertised.
Knowing a bit more about what may cause errors is always useful.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia




Hey Andrew,

I don't think that mentioning the type or specification of the encoder has any meaning here, but making it available is not a decision that is up to me and a manufacturer has a right to keep confidential what it wants to. There is another manufacturer out there who posts perhaps more information on the internal guts of their mounts but then they turn around and accuse others of steeling their ideas on the basis that they made so much information public in the first place. Is that how to protect ideas? Make everything public (but not patented) and then say that no one can do anything similar or use any of the same materials without it being a copy? I don't really get that.

Certainly no way to stop someone from reverse engineering something. But at least they have to spend the money on one first. Even patents don't protect you very well on an international basis. When I was at ASAE one of the people that I work with over at one of the mass-manufacturers came over and was looking at the Avalon mounts and said that they should buy one and reverse engineer it (I probably had an interesting look on my face). But then he also admitted that they couldn't build it to match.

If something doesn't work as advertised in this level of equipment, that should not be the customer's problem to solve. That's like telling me I should fix my Volvo myself if something happens to the engine.


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 11/30/10

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6255547 - 12/16/13 12:32 AM

Gday Ed

Quote:

I don't think that mentioning the type or specification of the encoder has any meaning here



Dunno there.
After reading the original work OrlyAndico has been doing on this subject,
i for one would have been interested in his insights based on whats used.

Quote:

Is that how to protect ideas? Make everything public (but not patented) and then say that no one can do anything similar or use any of the same materials without it being a copy?




In the context of the "far east" its irrelevant.
If they want to do something, they will copy what they want,
patented or not, and as long as its cheaper than local,
people will buy it.
And lets face it, thats where 99% of the new stuff is now coming from.

Quote:

That's like telling me I should fix my Volvo myself if something happens to the engine.




If you owned a Volvo, then you should learn fix it yourself
as it would be too embarrasing to take it into a repairer

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6255786 - 12/16/13 08:16 AM

Quote:

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.






You get the point, but still miss a thing that you obviously notice without paying attention to :
The price .
How to avoÔd costly absolute encoders ?: simple : make yours...and make a pattent with it... 10microns guys have been very smart on this.
the patent is on google, just find it (i let you find the correct search terms (PM me if you are lost ...:)


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6255930 - 12/16/13 09:57 AM

I'm sorry that I have created many doubts and questions after my message.
To the right of equality I have to say that Ed is a representative in the USA, of two major Italian companies manufacturer of mounts, 10micron and Avalon.

10micron I had the pleasure to speaking by phone with the producer of electronics, Avalon I personally know Luciano dal Sasso.

Both these companies are very important in other areas, apart from the astronomical stuff. These are NO small companies and especially have a Know How successful.

The cost of the Mount is simply expensive for two reasons:

- Quality
- Cost to import

In Europe, we are very used to paying double the price from dollars to euros because the taxes are very high here.

A Celestron CGE PRO cost 4500 bucks in the USA and in Italy two years ago, it cost Ä 7,000.00 !

If 10Micron and Avalon they haven chosen Ed, probably because they transferred the right information for adequate assistance.

Today in a lot of business people use the Made in Italy " brand " for confirming the quality, even those who have no legitimacy to do, as when I go in Manhattan for eating the Pizza or Italian Restaurant and I couldn't see anyone Italian in the staff

I believe that the American market get used to receive these opportunities from new companies with happiness , because local producers will start to use the most competitive prices for not lose the market place.

Thanks
Gianluca

Edited by contedracula (12/16/13 09:59 AM)


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dgmoses
member


Reged: 12/31/12

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6257278 - 12/16/13 10:57 PM

From my experience, if Ed Thomas is going to service these mounts inside the USA, that is all I need to know about service/maintenance issues. All that matters now is whether the mount stacks up against its competition. From what I have read in the 10 Micron manual, AP had better look over their shoulder. Time will tell.

Don


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dgmoses]
      #6257466 - 12/17/13 02:36 AM

I believe that the origin of many questions is just the price. I hope at the next NEAF there will be a good match between Astro-Physics and 10micron

Thanks
Gianluca


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Dan McConaughy
sage


Reged: 11/11/06

Loc: LA
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6264443 - 12/20/13 08:41 PM

How much do absolute encoders cost? They are a lot of money on an A-P.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6264624 - 12/20/13 11:11 PM

I have to take a moment to amplify this comment. Lots of people complain about how much the high end gear costs.

If you have ever really gotten into what is needed for making it, you become amazed at how cheap it is.

-Rich

Quote:

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.




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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6264633 - 12/20/13 11:17 PM

The Renishaw ring alone is over $1500 new. Per axis. I never did figure out how much the read head is. But I figure that with AP charging $4000 per axis, there isn't much profit left.

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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6265522 - 12/21/13 03:43 PM

Is the encoder absolute or incrimental?

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: cloudywest]
      #6265547 - 12/21/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

Is the encoder absolute or incrimental?




Absolute (i.e., it is able to always tell where it is pointed).


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6266455 - 12/22/13 06:23 AM

The main cost for expensive encoders is in absolute encoders. Incremental ones are cheap, and are the sort of thing a CGEM uses.

Ed, does the GM2000HPS have the same control system as the GM1000HPS?

-Rich


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6266676 - 12/22/13 11:09 AM

Quote:

The main cost for expensive encoders is in absolute encoders. Incremental ones are cheap, and are the sort of thing a CGEM uses.

Ed, does the GM2000HPS have the same control system as the GM1000HPS?

-Rich




Yes, all four 10Micron mounts use the same control system.


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6266975 - 12/22/13 02:11 PM

Quote:

Incremental ones are cheap, and are the sort of thing a CGEM uses.



Maybe cheaper than absolute, but still very expensive. Renishaw incremental encoder is nearly $2000. I don't think it is sort of thing a CGEM uses.


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
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Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: contedracula]
      #6270047 - 12/24/13 07:10 AM

Quote:

I believe that the origin of many questions is just the price. I hope at the next NEAF there will be a good match between Astro-Physics and 10micron

Thanks
Gianluca




Price is not the only issue. AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again. That is exactly the way my 20-year-old LX200 works. I don't know how anyone can call that absolute. The 10micron mounts are absolute, you can turn it off, move the axis, pack it in the case, and it still knows where the axis are. Again, not so with the AP.
The surprise is AP relative encoders cost a fortune, and 1000HPS absolute encoders come for free. Go figure.


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dawziecat
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/20/10

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270091 - 12/24/13 08:09 AM

Quote:


AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again.







Somebody who knows more than I about these things, please jump in here.

With respect to Pedro, is his statement not just categorically wrong?


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Bob Abraham
sage


Reged: 05/17/05

Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6270246 - 12/24/13 09:50 AM

I don't own an AP mount with absolute encoders but from the discussion on the ap-gto Yahoo group, I believe Pedro is correct in the sense that the absolute encoders are on the worm shaft and the clutches are independent of the worm. So if you loosen the clutches you can move the scope without moving the worm, and then the absolute position would be wrong. You'd still get the benefit of cancellation of periodic errors though.

It seems to me that a disadvantage of AP's implementation of absolute encoders on their mounts is that it's not quite a totally foolproof design. (A clutchless mount with a fixed home position would never lose track of its mechanical position). But AP's design optimizes for flexibility, and is still pretty close to foolproof; if you're worried about clutches slipping then just tighten them down using an allen key rather than your fingers. Your mount then behaves like a clutchless mount and the absolute position will never be wrong... you just have to calibrate the home position once and you're done forever. And an advantage of the AP design is that you can can define the home position to be anywhere you want it to be.

Can somebody post a link to the manual for the absolute encoder system? I can't seem to locate it on the AP website.

Bob

Edited by Bob Abraham (12/24/13 10:11 AM)


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
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Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6270282 - 12/24/13 10:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:


AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again.







Somebody who knows more than I about these things, please jump in here.

With respect to Pedro, is his statement not just categorically wrong?




From Roland himself, ap-gto group, 17-Apr-2013:

"The encoders are tied to the worm gear, not to the clutched shaft, so if you loosen the clutches and move it by hand, you will have to reset the encoder positions. However, this has the advantage of always having the encoder tied directly to the worm gear teeth, so when you build up a pointing model, it will always be valid because you are not changing the relationship between the worm teeth and the encoder."

"The Mach1 does not have large enough shafts for the encoder rings. This mount was designed to be a lightweight, affordable, portable mount, and I would suggest that adding precision encoders will negate the affordability of this mount."

Note the encoders are absolute, the mount is not, because the encoders are not connected directly to the mount output shaft, but rather to the internal gear. Roland arguments on these two sentences do not convince me, and the proof is 10micron superior precision, which AP can only equal when connected to a PC.
So with AP you pay premium absolute encoders, but do not get absolute mount because of AP (poor in my opinion) design decision.


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270300 - 12/24/13 10:24 AM

Strange arguments. If the encoders are on the worm axis they won't reduce PE and other mechanical mishaps, and the scope can get lost. Reset of the encoders would be based on some homing sensor, and how accurate are they???

I am confused.

/per


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6270308 - 12/24/13 10:27 AM

Quote:

if you're worried about clutches slipping then just tighten them down using an allen key rather than your fingers. Your mount then behaves like a clutchless mount and the absolute position will never be wrong...


Clutchless?
And give up panning by hand, with the mount computer (or PC) telling you where you are pointing? That is one of mine main pleasures in astronomy, manual (by hand not keypad) panning. I always wanted my LX200 to do that, 20-years later I want something better.
And being unable to move the mount when powered off?
No thanks.

Edited by pbsastro (12/24/13 10:30 AM)


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270376 - 12/24/13 11:08 AM

Quote:

Strange arguments. If the encoders are on the worm axis they won't reduce PE and other mechanical mishaps, and the scope can get lost. Reset of the encoders would be based on some homing sensor, and how accurate are they???

I am confused.

/per




For each axis (RA, DEC) there are 3 axis: axis 1 fixed, axis 2 which connects to axis 1 via gear, and axis 3 that conects to axis 2 via clutch. So if clutch is tightened axis 3 = axis 2 and all is equal to 10micron.
AP encoders measure axis 2 releative to axis 1, so if clutch is loose axis 3 is lost, and axis 3 is the output one, the one that matters.

Edited by pbsastro (12/24/13 11:35 AM)


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270397 - 12/24/13 11:16 AM

Quote:

If the encoders are on the worm axis they won't reduce PE and other mechanical mishaps




That's true. Of course, nobody would ever bother to do that since it would gain nothing. It has been clearly stated in this thread that the AP encoders connect to the worm gear, not to the worm.


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6270479 - 12/24/13 11:48 AM

OK, enlighten me here as a non-native English speaker, which part is which is that mess? "Worm" is the roller and "Worm gear" the big wheel?

In the 10Micron mounts, the encoders are on the final axis, the the scope is on. That means that an uneven worm gear would be compensated for as the encoder is in the feedback loop to the motor controller.

/per


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Bob Abraham
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270523 - 12/24/13 12:04 PM

Hi Per,

Yes, the worm is the thing that looks sort-of like a screw (or a roller), and the worm gear is the thing that looks like a spur (or a wheel). But according to Wikipedia, it's common to mess this up: "The terminology is often confused by imprecise use of the term worm gear to refer to the worm, the worm gear, or the worm drive as a unit." I'm know I'm guilty of doing this!

Bob


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6270554 - 12/24/13 12:17 PM

Thanks!

Always looking to improve the command of the language, ever since 1975 when I went to high school in Albuquerque as an exchange student

/per


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Bob Abraham
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270560 - 12/24/13 12:21 PM

Hi Pedro,

Quote:

Quote:

if you're worried about clutches slipping then just tighten them down using an allen key rather than your fingers. Your mount then behaves like a clutchless mount and the absolute position will never be wrong...


Clutchless?
And give up panning by hand, with the mount computer (or PC) telling you where you are pointing? That is one of mine main pleasures in astronomy, manual (by hand not keypad) panning. I always wanted my LX200 to do that, 20-years later I want something better.
And being unable to move the mount when powered off?
No thanks.




Fair enough, I really enjoy slewing scopes around by hand too. I also enjoy occasionally finding things with analog setting circles... so I certainly see your point of view. But I think the arguments for AP's design choice (and for the truly clutchess mounts like the Paramount ME) are fundamentally quite sound, given that their main purpose is astrophotography (often via remote or even fully robotic operation). So I think for most people being able to loosen clutches and slew around by hand while maintaining absolution position information is not a priority. Of course, if it is a priority for you, then I guess it's not a good mount choice for you.

Bob

Edited by Bob Abraham (12/24/13 12:33 PM)


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dawziecat
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270581 - 12/24/13 12:26 PM

Quote:


AP mounts with encoders are not absolute. If you move it by hand it gets lost and has to be calibrated again. If the clutch gets a little loose and the axis slips a little, it is lost again and has to be calibrated again.





My apologies, Pedro, for doubting your post. This is certainly news to me. Thanks for stating it succinctly enough to get my attention!


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Bob Abraham
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6270602 - 12/24/13 12:39 PM

Quote:

Thanks!

Always looking to improve the command of the language, ever since 1975 when I went to high school in Albuquerque as an exchange student

/per




You're welcome, and your English is excellent (not to mention a million times better than my Swedish). Albuquerque is a neat place to visit - and a pretty big astronomy hub with the VLA and Apache Point relatively nearby - I bet you'd enjoy visiting it again!

Bob


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6270618 - 12/24/13 12:48 PM

Quote:

But I think the arguments for AP's design choice (and for the truly clutchess mounts like the Paramount ME) to be fundamentally quite sound, given that their main purpose is astrophotography (often via remote or even fully robotic operation).

Bob




Bob,
The argument would be sound if they would be giving up something (free movement) to gain something, I I do not see anything to be gained from AP design.
Roland says: "advantage of always having the encoder tied directly to the worm gear teeth, so when you build up a pointing model, it will always be valid because you are not changing the relationship between the worm teeth and the encoder."

He implies the model is not valid if the relation between the worm teeth and the encoder changes. That is not true because the model is made based on measures of the output axis, totally independent of the gear (worm or teeth). The gear is just a mean to get there, as it could be pushing it by hand, blowing or whatever. So I am sorry to say, but AP argument does not make any sense at all. That from theory only. The practice is 10micron.

Pedro


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6270661 - 12/24/13 01:21 PM

Quote:


My apologies, Pedro, for doubting your post. This is certainly news to me. Thanks for stating it succinctly enough to get my attention!




No problem Terry, few people are aware of that.
The new Skywatcher EQ8 Pro Synscan is a comparatively weak mount of course, but also allows free movement.

I have always been a big fan of AP. It was always number one for me, since 1994. However with time I have been disappointed with AP.
First with scopes, instead of selling them at the proper price they prefer to have 10+ years waiting lists with higher prices on the secondary market, and then making draws... I'm out of there.
Now with mounts. I sold my AP600E to buy a bigger AP mount. I wanted an AP mount because AP mounts are still the best by far concerning capacity/weight ratio. The 1100 has the same weight of 1000HPS but double capacity. The problem is 10micron is so much better everything else, that it was a big dilemma for me. Weight is crucial to me, the most important factor to me, because I have back injury. So it was very painful to me to have to choose 1000HPS over 1100. But no way I would pay that money for an outdated design mount. It is just not the encoders issue. It is the weak controller, and associated software making the mount so poor compared to 10micron. If one cares to read both manuals, we see that 10micron is much simpler, intuitive and powerful.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/24/13 01:31 PM)


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6270946 - 12/24/13 04:07 PM

Hi Pedro and other 10 Micron mount users!

I have some questions about "full" PC control only. You can PM me if you like.

Does the 10 Micron ascom driver have a pointing model and variable tracking speed with the encoders? It shows on their site it can compensate for atmospheric refraction, can this be done through a PC and not the hand controller? Iím pretty much 100% PC based.. no hand controller.

I'm pretty sure I am going to sell my AP1600 with Encoders and get a 3000GPS. As Pedro stated above, AP has become, odd.. This is not a vendor bash but personal experience:

When you wait 10+ years for a scope that Roland only makes a few of, It would really chap my butt if they let people cut the line. AP sent out Christmas cards this year to its customers. Those customers that spent a certain amount received a cut the line pass to move up the list 10-25 spots! WOW!. Add a few more years to your wait list if you haven't spent major$$$ with AP.

#2 I heard this from a pretty reliable source. When their software developer has a disagreement with an end user, he told AP/Marj not to allow said user to participate in the APCC beta program. Straight up bully move. When I heard this, this was the straws that broke the camels back into why I totally regret buying an AP mount. When I post on the AP yahoo group or call, I feel segregated against. Sign of the times I guess.. But I don't have to support..

Like I said, this is from personal experience.


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Bob Abraham]
      #6271614 - 12/25/13 01:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks!

Always looking to improve the command of the language, ever since 1975 when I went to high school in Albuquerque as an exchange student

/per




You're welcome, and your English is excellent (not to mention a million times better than my Swedish). Albuquerque is a neat place to visit - and a pretty big astronomy hub with the VLA and Apache Point relatively nearby - I bet you'd enjoy visiting it again!

Bob





Yes, I do. I have been back so many times I lost count long ago

/per


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6271641 - 12/25/13 02:07 AM Attachment (24 downloads)

Skunky,

10Micron mounts keep the model in the mount. You do not need a PC to enjoy it. They have a good ASCOM driver but it arrived a bit late, so I developed my own and was ready before them. Today there are no issues with their driver and I still maintain mine. As the model is in the mount it is used for both tracking and pointing. The mount also compensates for atmospheric refraction.

A model can be built with the hand controller in the same manner as any mount's alignment procedure. Maximum model size is 100 points, which is boiled down to complex model terms (highest number of model terms I have seen is 23) which I think works like a curve-fit/trend-line in 3D spherical.

I wrote a utility that builds a model in a very short time using repeated exposures and PinPoint plate solves. It is now a mature freeware (or donorware if people want to donate) that 10Micron and Baader Planetarium feature on their web-site.

Tracking speed is variable/modeled in Ra and model controlled in Dec. It does support tracking of satellites, asteroids and comets that are in the database and it can be loaded with TLE files (orbit data). Once you have loaded the data into the mount with your PC you can let go of the PC.

Encoders are mounted on the actual axis (Ra and Dec) and are in the neighborhood of 12 million ticks per rev, which is equal to 0.108 arc-seconds. There are also encoders on the motors. The motor control feedback loop uses both encoders, motor and axis, in the control of the motor, so PE and other things are compensated for automatically.

The GM1000HPS is capable of slewing at 15į/s, the GM2000HPS 20į/s. The same maximum speeds can be used when tracking fast moving objects like satellites. In that case, the mount auto-flips during tracking - really fast. Neat feature

The GM1000HPS has a dual belt reduction stage before the worm, the bigger ones a single belt. So, one can say that they are a marriage of solid old high-precision mechanics and modern day technology like absolute encoders. The company that make the mounts, Comec, has been active in high precision mechanics for many years so they have the experience.

I stumbled upon 10Micron in early 2012 and bought a GM2000HPS ultra portable (you can split it in two halves, Ra and Dec) with their massice Centaur tripod and flight cases unseen. Never regretted that!

Below is an image of my GM2000HPS taken apart. It has the round control box which is no longer available. Instead, the rectangular detached box is what you get. They have also re-designed the exterior of the mount and changed to a single cable between the mount and the box, just like the GM1000HPS.

All the best and a Merry Christmas to all!

/per


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6271643 - 12/25/13 02:08 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

And... Comparison between my GM1000HPS and my GM2000HPS...

/per


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6271658 - 12/25/13 02:33 AM

Thanks Per.

I came across your site earlier today. I would be perm mounted and tied to a PC. I see software is available for any purpose I might choose to pursue. I'm looking into the new GM3000HPS


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6271717 - 12/25/13 05:00 AM

No worries!

The 3000 seems to be a nice addition to the family!

/per


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R Botero
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6271745 - 12/25/13 06:17 AM

Skunky

Quote:

Those customers that spent a certain amount received a cut the line pass to move up the list 10-25 spots! WOW!. Add a few more years to your wait list if you haven't spent major$$$ with AP.





I am sorry but you misread that thread on the Yahoo Group completely. It was a joke that was posted by an user and others followed up and even Roland and Marj Christen joined in jest. They were throwing around models of scopes that they'd be getting...it was clearly harmless fun...

Roberto


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6272219 - 12/25/13 01:28 PM

Skunky, I have my 1000 HPS only for 3 months now, and did not use it yet connected to a PC. Per is the 10micron guru and always uses it connected to a PC, so he is the perfect person to help you on all PC control matters, besides writing great software of his own to 10micron mounts which are very popular with 10micron users.

Pedro


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6272745 - 12/25/13 09:09 PM

Well, the MEII has a 240lb. capacity and for $21,500, slightly more than the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 100lbs more capacity. And Mathis Instruments MI500 for the same price as the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 180lbs capacity. So there are alternatives that have all the goodies.

I don't ever see myself having a scope that requires a mount with that much capacity. But if I did, I'd probably go with Mathis Instruments. I just like the design.

David


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6272932 - 12/25/13 11:50 PM

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.

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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6273043 - 12/26/13 02:20 AM

Quote:

Well, the MEII has a 240lb. capacity and for $21,500, slightly more than the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 100lbs more capacity.
David




David,

As far as I can tell they have not yet released a version of the ME-II with encoders. Any news on when that may be available?

/per


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6273426 - 12/26/13 11:07 AM

Quote:

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.




True. But if you want counterweights, a power supply and a saddle, the price starts to climb. Just sayin'.

David


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6273436 - 12/26/13 11:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, the MEII has a 240lb. capacity and for $21,500, slightly more than the GM2000, you get absolute encoders and 100lbs more capacity.
David




David,

As far as I can tell they have not yet released a version of the ME-II with encoders. Any news on when that may be available?

/per




I was going by this. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the information.

David


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Tonk
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6273503 - 12/26/13 11:48 AM

Quote:

I was going by this. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the information.




Am I reading that right - an additional $4,000 extra per axis to fit absolute encoders? or is it just $4,000 for both encoders?


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dawziecat
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6273537 - 12/26/13 12:03 PM

Quote:

Am I reading that right - an additional $4,000 extra per axis to fit absolute encoders? or is it just $4,000 for both encoders?




Seems pretty clear.
Quote:

On-Axis Encoder Options...
Cost to upgrade each axis is $4000.




Pretty comparable to what Astrophysics charge too.

The price of admission to the world of quality AEs is daunting!


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Tonk
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6273560 - 12/26/13 12:16 PM

Glad I got the GM 1000 HPS then! For that axis encoder upgrade cost alone I got a whole working mount with abs encoders, mount controller + counter weights. A small/lightweight scope policy sometimes works for you

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6273602 - 12/26/13 12:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was going by this. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the information.




Am I reading that right - an additional $4,000 extra per axis to fit absolute encoders? or is it just $4,000 for both encoders?




Yup...it isn't cheap. My guess is that if you order a mount and request the encoders, they pull one off the assembly process or shelf and have it sent to a specified machinist that does the added work. And then it has to be integrated electronically. It puts the price right up there with the mounts that have encoders installed from the beginning.

David


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WadeH237
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6273788 - 12/26/13 02:40 PM

I'm a bit late, but I wanted to jump in and clarify erroneous information about the AP encoders.

I don't have encoders for my AP1600, but I have closely followed the discussion on the AP user groups about them. They are most definitely absolute encoders. Any claim to the contrary is categorically wrong.

You can cut power to the mount randomly and they won't get lost. You can release the clutches and move the mount randomly and they won't get lost.

What is different about the way that AP implements their software is (as near as I can tell), is that AP's mount control firmware works the same way with or without encoders. That is to say that, without encoders, the pointing, tracking, alignment, etc. assumes a perfect mechanical system. When you add the encoders, everything works exactly the same way, except that the encoders ensure a perfect mechanical system to within the tolerances of the encoders.

If you are looking for a feature that allows you to release the clutches and swing the mount without losing sky alignment, I don't believe that the AP encoders support this. The system is designed to work with the clutches locked at all times.

If the clutches do slip and you have encoders, you can recover the sky alignment (because the encoders *are* absolute). To do this, you would send a command to have the mount to move to a (user selectable) physical home position, which it will do with sub arc second accuracy. Then you do a sync and you will be aligned with the sky again.

From what I read about the 10Micron stuff, this is a completely different implementation. The AP encoders are designed to enable a highly robust remote installation.
They are also designed to be user installable and to allow the user to initialize the reference positions without having to send the mount back to AP.

I don't want to drag the thread further off topic, so I'll go back to reading about the 10Micron mount. If people want to discuss the AP system further, someone should start a new thread. I just wanted to clear up the misinformation that's already here.


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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6273974 - 12/26/13 04:32 PM

What you're saying, Wade, is that say, for instance, you have the mount all set up with a good pointing model doing its thing like an AP mount can. You get a new piece of equipment and have to balance it which means that you have to release the clutches.

Your description sounds to me like you have a preselected homing position that the mount will seek when commanded to do so. At that point, all is well with the pointing model and you just go back to imaging or viewing. If that's the case, then the AP mount should be just fine in a remote operation. Did I get that right?

Question: I don't have encoders on my MI250, but what I do have is pinstripe tape. What?! What I did was just indexed the Dec. and RA axes with the pinstripe tape and when I have to release the clutches for whatever reason (mount has to be off), all I do is place the two axes at their indexed points, make sure that the clutches are tight, turn on the mount, enable SiTech, tell SiTech to goto a star, when it gets there, I center and sync it and the mount has no idea that the axes have been fooled with.

Does the AP mount, once set up, have to be in a specific spot to home properly or will it home no matter the position?

Thanks!

David


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alpal
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6273990 - 12/26/13 04:42 PM

I have some comments about all the secrecy in designs.

As an electronics technician for over 30 years it is
something that has always bugged me & is getting worse.
In the "good old days " you could get a circuit diagram &
component overlay to help find the parts on the PCB - by law.
This has all changed & even if you're inside a company repairing
their products it can be very difficult to get information.
The information is often out of date & doesn't reflect changes or revisions.
Forget about getting source code for firmware.
That's always held at Fort Knox in a safe - not even technicians can get it.
Often the faults occur in the same areas & that's why the revisions are made.
In other words - just what you need to know about is not on the circuit.

Then comes quality & reliability.
High quality circuit boards have their solder via holes filled with solder
to strengthen them & the whole boards are usually masked & conformally coated
at the factory to keep moisture out.
Moisture is a killer of electronics especially when it is
exposed to outside conditions - the situation of all mounts.
Wouldn't you like to know if your printed circuit board is conformally coated?

Another thing that worries me are those rubber toothed belts.
Are they a standard size that can be replaced easily?
I've seen tiny belts in mounts that stretch & get torn to pieces after many years of use.
I would want to quickly get a new belt & replace it myself & not have
to send a whole mount overseas for a 5 minute replacement job.
Some belts are inside slip rings ( rotating electrical connecting rings )
& are difficult to replace.
Wouldn't you like to know more about the rubber belts in the mount before you buy it?

I would also like to know the part numbers of all integrated circuits on PCBs -
people would be surprised at how quickly parts go obsolete.
It used to be 20 years & now it can be in a matter of 5 years.
That could mean a whole mount is un-repairable if some obscure part is used that breaks down from a $10 integrated circuit.
If you don't have a circuit you can't even modify it for a later part to be used.
I've heard a rumour that absolute encoders can get dirt or dust on them & become unusable.
Are the encoders protected from this?

Maybe we should all bear this in mind when buying a secret mount?
On the other hand - all the manufacturers are secretive so we don't have much choice.


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WadeH237
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Reged: 02/24/07

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6274013 - 12/26/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

Your description sounds to me like you have a preselected homing position that the mount will seek when commanded to do so. At that point, all is well with the pointing model and you just go back to imaging or viewing. If that's the case, then the AP mount should be just fine in a remote operation. Did I get that right?




That is my understanding.

Quote:

Does the AP mount, once set up, have to be in a specific spot to home properly or will it home no matter the position?




I went back to the messages, to be sure I got this right. According to Roland, there is a routine that you run once (presumably per installation) so that the encoders know how your scope is oriented to the mount. Once this is done, you can - at any time (without having to see the sky) - press the home key, and then calibrate (same as other mounts sync). From then on, you are good to go.

One correction from my previous post is that it appears that the physical home for the mount will be park 3, which is scope pointed north and counterweight down. You can still park the mount in any chosen position, but for the purpose of recalibrating the encoders, it uses park 3.


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6274150 - 12/26/13 06:24 PM

correct and yes.

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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6274155 - 12/26/13 06:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.




True. But if you want counterweights, a power supply and a saddle, the price starts to climb. Just sayin'.

David




That's with an AP mount or SB mount too regardless.

ap1600 with encoders is $18,660 with no counterweights, dovetail, power supply, saddle, etc.


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WadeH237]
      #6274231 - 12/26/13 07:13 PM

Quote:

I'm a bit late, but I wanted to jump in and clarify erroneous information about the AP encoders.
They are most definitely absolute encoders. Any claim to the contrary is categorically wrong.





There was no erroneous information. It was said:
"Note the encoders are absolute, the mount is not, because the encoders are not connected directly to the mount output shaft, but rather to the internal gear.
So with AP you pay premium absolute encoders, but do not get absolute mount because of AP (poor in my opinion) design decision. "

Quote:

You can release the clutches and move the mount randomly and they won't get lost.



Of course it does get lost. You say so here:
Quote:

If you are looking for a feature that allows you to release the clutches and swing the mount without losing sky alignment, I don't believe that the AP encoders support this. The system is designed to work with the clutches locked at all times.




Quote:

If the clutches do slip and you have encoders, you can recover the sky alignment (because the encoders *are* absolute). To do this, you would send a command to have the mount to move to a (user selectable) physical home position, which it will do with sub arc second accuracy. Then you do a sync and you will be aligned with the sky again.



You say you can recover alignment because encoders are absolute, but then you say it recovers because it does a home. These are contradictory statements.
If you have to do home that is not absolute behavior, that is how relative encoders work, going home to sync.

Quote:

I just wanted to clear up the misinformation that's already here.



I'm afraid the misinformation comes from your contradictory statements above.

Pedro


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6274555 - 12/26/13 10:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A GM3000 has a 220lb capacity and is $18,450 stock.




True. But if you want counterweights, a power supply and a saddle, the price starts to climb. Just sayin'.

David




That's with an AP mount or SB mount too regardless.

ap1600 with encoders is $18,660 with no counterweights, dovetail, power supply, saddle, etc.




Note that I didn't include AP mounts in my posts.

Included hardware with the MEII. Click on Included Items: Link.

And the included hardware with the MI500 (not sure if the saddle is included). Click on Included Items: Link.

David


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6274666 - 12/27/13 12:04 AM

Quote:


Note that I didn't include AP mounts in my posts.

Included hardware with the MEII. Click on Included Items: Link.

And the included hardware with the MI500 (not sure if the saddle is included). Click on Included Items: Link.






meII, $13,500 +$6000 for encoders =$19,500 + counterweights, dovetail, power supply, etc..

MI500 MI-500 German Mount $14,200 + $5,600 = $19,200 + counterweights, dovetail, power supply, etc..

The OP asked about a GM2000HPS which is with encoders, your going to have to add in the encoder option on those mounts if were comparing apples to apples here...

The GM2000HPS is not in the same class as an ap1600, MEII or Mi-500... DOH!

to the admins!


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6274725 - 12/27/13 01:22 AM

About the ME-II even having decoders, the note that they"will be available in late 2013" is still on the Bisque site, with a price tag of $3000, while Optcorp qoutes $4000. Both are per axis and there is no definite details on availability.

The encoders will only take away PE and flex if used with Protrack, their in-PC software for modeling the sky.

With the GM2000HPS you have all that in-mount and ancoders have been available for two or three years, and hence is aready a mature design.

I still think the 10MIcron way is the best. PLease note, however, that the AP is an old-school reduction gear and worm solution, while the Bisque and 10Micron are both belt reduction and worm, alas a bit more modern.

I saw some note about belts not being as reliable as gears, but that is not a statement I subscribe to.

/per


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GIR
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Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6274780 - 12/27/13 02:46 AM

Looks like the 10Micron campaign is in full speed again

They are all "old technology" 10Micron, Bisque and AP. The only "new way" of building a mount is the ASA way.However, that doesn't mean mounts can't be built reliably with worm gears and belts. Bisque and AP are very good examples of that. They have a track record both ASA and 10Micron can only dream about.

A high quality mount is a sum of all parts not just trying to highlight some details. E.g. ASA mounts Renishaw encoders are capable of resolving 0.01 arc sec and 10Micron "only" 0.1. So are ASA mounts 10 times better than 10Micron ? I doubt it. ...better but not 10 times


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Tonk
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Reged: 08/19/04

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6274841 - 12/27/13 04:33 AM

Quote:

The only "new way" of building a mount is the ASA way




Looks like the ASA campaign is in full speed again


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6274875 - 12/27/13 06:35 AM

Depends on which way you look at it. AP-campaign, SB-campaign, 10M-campaign.

We all like what we have and most of us have good reasons for our choices.

/per


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6275116 - 12/27/13 10:27 AM

I surrender. If and when the time comes, I'll buy a Mathis or an SB. I'll bet on their LONG track records.

David


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frolinmod
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/06/10

Loc: Southern California
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6275219 - 12/27/13 11:42 AM

Quote:

+ counterweights, dovetail saddle, power supply, etc..



Just wanted to mention:

1. With the MEII, all of the above are already included in the base price. For instance, you receive two counterweights each of which are 14 Kg (30 lbs). But if you're buying this mount for its weight capacity, you probably need a few more.

2. The MEII has already gone up in price considerably from it's introductory price, which was a real bargain at the time. Unfortunately the price is going up even more very soon. If you're in the market for an MEII, best to purchase one now.


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: frolinmod]
      #6275506 - 12/27/13 02:50 PM

Well asas are pretty and with nice technology, so sad that it takes two hours to setup in the field... ( )

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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6275552 - 12/27/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Well asas are pretty and with nice technology, so sad that it takes two hours to setup in the field... ( )




Even though this is only meant as a provocation, just in case someone is taking it seriously...

...setting up ASA in the field doesn't take any longer than other mounts. As a matter of fact, it's the opposite because most of the procedures can be automated. If someone is using 2 hours setting things up, it's his way of doing things and not a general rule. So please no cheap shots...


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famax
member


Reged: 07/01/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6275593 - 12/27/13 03:30 PM

just was jocking GIR, but was also reapeting some asa's user report, certainly not a trained one.

We are very lucky in these days to have such choice in fine technologies to play with.


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Jeff B
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: famax]
      #6276887 - 12/28/13 10:05 AM

You bet.

This seems to be an imaging-centric discussion concerning the encoders. For us visual guys, it's just not an issue, though it would be nice to hand slew the scope around without it getting lost.

But even then, all I do is return to the last star I recalibrated on (AP mount), center it in the high power x-hair eyepiece and slew from there. Takes hardly anytime at all.

Jeff


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Jeff B]
      #6277176 - 12/28/13 12:50 PM

Quote:

This seems to be an imaging-centric discussion concerning the encoders. For us visual guys, it's just not an issue, though it would be nice to hand slew the scope around without it getting lost.

But even then, all I do is return to the last star I recalibrated on (AP mount), center it in the high power x-hair eyepiece and slew from there. Takes hardly anytime at all.

Jeff



Quite the opposite. I am 90% a visual guy. And 10micron encoders make all the difference there. For all-time-PC operation or remote operation there is not much difference between 10micron and AP+encoders. Although there Per is the expert, he can tell better. What it concerns to me most, keypad operated mount, and visual, 10micron makes all the difference, because of the superior 10micron controller and software, while a PC can override most of it.
For example if you want to pan the sky and want the mount tell you what you are pointing at, how can you sync the mount if neither of you know where it is pointing? With AP, the mount is blind you are the dog (that needs to sync it), with 10micron, you can be blind, the mount is your dog.
Also, I am 50% solar guy, 10micron is much more convenient for daytime alignment and operation.
There are many other use cases, comparing both manuals tells a lot.
Of course you can do all with the AP. With first cars, you needed to get out out of the car, and turn a hand-level manually in order to start the engine. But it worked fine, just a few more seconds, not significant, and owners were very happy with them, as they were the best thing in the world.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/28/13 01:39 PM)


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Jeff B
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277474 - 12/28/13 04:00 PM

Well true that, which is why I said it would be nice to have a closed-loop system. But not necessary, especially at the asking prices of the 10 Micron stuff.

However, I've noticed that such features are starting to show up on cheaper items like the new Orion Atlas mount and some of their goto dobs.

As you pan around by hand, do any errors accumulate?

I wish AP and others had similar, less expensive offerings.


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277588 - 12/28/13 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This seems to be an imaging-centric discussion concerning the encoders. For us visual guys, it's just not an issue, though it would be nice to hand slew the scope around without it getting lost.

But even then, all I do is return to the last star I recalibrated on (AP mount), center it in the high power x-hair eyepiece and slew from there. Takes hardly anytime at all.

Jeff



Quite the opposite. I am 90% a visual guy. And 10micron encoders make all the difference there. For all-time-PC operation or remote operation there is not much difference between 10micron and AP+encoders. Although there Per is the expert, he can tell better. What it concerns to me most, keypad operated mount, and visual, 10micron makes all the difference, because of the superior 10micron controller and software, while a PC can override most of it.
For example if you want to pan the sky and want the mount tell you what you are pointing at, how can you sync the mount if neither of you know where it is pointing? With AP, the mount is blind you are the dog (that needs to sync it), with 10micron, you can be blind, the mount is your dog.
Also, I am 50% solar guy, 10micron is much more convenient for daytime alignment and operation.
There are many other use cases, comparing both manuals tells a lot.
Of course you can do all with the AP. With first cars, you needed to get out out of the car, and turn a hand-level manually in order to start the engine. But it worked fine, just a few more seconds, not significant, and owners were very happy with them, as they were the best thing in the world.

Pedro




For outreach events and star parties (100% visual), my $450 (used price) CG5-GT can put any object in the FOV on either side of the meridian all night long with a simple 2/4 star alignment. No super duper encoders needed. Jeff's observation is essentially a good one. For visual work for 99% of us, good ole' archaic goto mounts work very well, indeed.

No, you can't release the clutches and have the mount find itself after, but why would you want to hand slew a GOTO MOUNT? At any rate, this conversation is geared toward imaging since there is no need to be concerned about PE when viewing M42 through a 27 Panoptic.

David


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Peter in Reno
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6277670 - 12/28/13 05:41 PM

My number one priority for purchasing a mount is smooth and low PE tracking plus minimal to no backlash in both axes (especially Dec axis). Previously I had Atlas EQ-G GEM and Celestron CPC0800 mounted on Mitty wedge and I find them reasonably okay for imaging but I always had to throw out about 25% to 50% of total subs due to rough tracking and excessive backlash. When I upgraded to A-P Mach1GTO, it was day and night. The tracking is so smooth that PHD Guiding hardly makes corrections during autoguiding session. Also backlash in both axes was nearly non-existent. Goto's was my second priority since just about any mount will find objects in FOV of eyepiece or camera. Now I have an A-P1100GTO and I am looking forward to super smooth tracking.

Without smooth tracking and minimal to no backlash in both axes, it would be difficult to get 100% success rate for every sub captured. Aren't smooth tracking and minimal to no backlash most important?

Since my setup is always portable, I really don't need good pointing model. Polar alignment with A-P mounts is so easy and quick, then all I have to do is slew to a known star nearest to target DSO for imaging, center the star, Recalibrate (sync if you will) and finally slew to target DSO. Target DSO is always dead center of camera's FOV. Then the super smooth tracking gears of A-P mount will take care of the rest. 99% of the time I am ready for imaging BEFORE the sky is totally dark.

It's not clear whether the OP plan to have permanently installed in observatory. If it's permanent, then it's obvious that absolute encoders would be ideal despite higher cost. Wouldn't a mount without absolute encoders but has homing position be enough for remote operation. If the mount loses it's current position and is blind, wouldn't homing the mount remotely be enough? Can't A-P mount with absolute encoders do this if the operator previously pre-selected homing position? Since this is remote operation, why would you want to manually move the mount?

Astro-Physics has fantastic track record for service and support. Since I live in USA, it makes sense to get made in USA products. If you live in Europe, it would make sense to get European made products for service and support. If people claim that 10 Micron mounts are just as good as A-P mounts, then I would buy one that's made where it's closest to your home location.

Peter


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6277770 - 12/28/13 06:25 PM

Quote:

For outreach events and star parties (100% visual), my $450 (used price) CG5-GT can put any object in the FOV on either side of the meridian all night long with a simple 2/4 star alignment. No super duper encoders needed. Jeff's observation is essentially a good one. For visual work for 99% of us, good ole' archaic goto mounts work very well, indeed.



I personally do not care about outreach events and star parties, but if I did I certainty would not be looking for top-end equipment as AP or 10M.

Quote:

No, you can't release the clutches and have the mount find itself after, but why would you want to hand slew a GOTO MOUNT? At any rate, this conversation is geared toward imaging since there is no need to be concerned about PE when viewing M42 through a 27 Panoptic.




Who needs GOTO? Not me. Fortunately I have both arms and hands perfect functional, and I find more convenient the way my DM6 tells me where to move the scope by hand. Only thing missing there is tracking, including planet, comet and satellite tracking. For imaging, where we point at very few (if more than one) targets per night, GOTO is even less necessary. GOTO is necessary only for remote operation, which I do not do nor will ever do.
I never liked the feeling of the mount moving and me checking in the dark if I forgot something that will cause an accident. Much more comfortable to move it manually. Not to mention I quite enjoy the feeling of moving a heavy scope perfectly balanced with the tip of my fingers. If on top of that the mount tells where I am, and the direction to move to get my target, that is my game.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/28/13 06:28 PM)


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orion69
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Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277807 - 12/28/13 06:45 PM

Pedro, so you are prepared to pay few thousands $ just to be able to know mount position when you move your mount manually?
Well, not me for sure...

For just visual, absolute encoders are just wasting money, they have absolutely no use for visual (except for that you described).
For imaging on the other hand GOTO is essential and absolute encoders are welcome add-on.


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orion69]
      #6277868 - 12/28/13 07:24 PM

Knez, I think you have not read with attention.

Quote:

Pedro, so you are prepared to pay few thousands $ just to be able to know mount position when you move your mount manually?
Well, not me for sure...



First I also do imaging. Second, encoders have other advantages for visual use, including alignment. Third, the 1000HPS the encoders come for free.

Quote:

For imaging on the other hand GOTO is essential.



Really? If not remote operation, GOTO is completely unnecessary. You should be confusing GOTO with the mount telling you where an object is.


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crow
sage


Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277927 - 12/28/13 08:02 PM

Given the price of the mount the encoders are hardly free. As far as I can tell a Mach 1 is 2700 dollars cheaper?

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pbsastro
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Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: crow]
      #6277938 - 12/28/13 08:09 PM

Quote:

Given the price of the mount the encoders are hardly free. As far as I can tell a Mach 1 is 2700 dollars cheaper?



In Europe, 1000HPS and Mach1 price are exactly the same, and Knez and I are both based in Europe.


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crow
sage


Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6277949 - 12/28/13 08:15 PM

I'm aware of that, I'm originally from europe myself. If I was there the 10 micron would be the winner.

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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278050 - 12/28/13 09:13 PM

Quote:


First I also do imaging. Second, encoders have other advantages for visual use, including alignment. Third, the 1000HPS the encoders come for free.

Really? If not remote operation, GOTO is completely unnecessary. You should be confusing GOTO with the mount telling you where an object is.




I'm really puzzled now...

For visual, GOTO alignment is important if you use GOTO, precise polar alignment for visual is completely unnecessary, rough polar alignment is more than enough. Don't tell me you'll use TPoint for visual?

As for imaging, looks like you are doing some different imaging than me... GOTO is extremely important when imaging for framing particularly with plate solving, refocusing when no suitable star is present near imaging object, finding object with controlling software etc...

Edited by orion69 (12/28/13 09:20 PM)


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6278053 - 12/28/13 09:13 PM

Quote:

My number one priority for purchasing a mount is smooth and low PE tracking plus minimal to no backlash in both axes (especially Dec axis).




Peter, if no Dec backlash is one of your priorities, AP talks about encoders and PE and Dec backlash on their AP1100 website page video (minute 11:40).
Those AP mounts are mechanical works of art, very nice to watch the full video, but the part at 11:40 is the best advertisement on the 1000HPS. I saw that video on the period I was making my decision (Mach1 or AP1100 or 1000HPS, one of the three was for sure), and that video part helped a little towards the 1000HPS. In your case, it may push you to add encoders to your 1100.

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (12/28/13 09:53 PM)


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278175 - 12/28/13 10:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

For outreach events and star parties (100% visual), my $450 (used price) CG5-GT can put any object in the FOV on either side of the meridian all night long with a simple 2/4 star alignment. No super duper encoders needed. Jeff's observation is essentially a good one. For visual work for 99% of us, good ole' archaic goto mounts work very well, indeed.



I personally do not care about outreach events and star parties, but if I did I certainty would not be looking for top-end equipment as AP or 10M.

Quote:

No, you can't release the clutches and have the mount find itself after, but why would you want to hand slew a GOTO MOUNT? At any rate, this conversation is geared toward imaging since there is no need to be concerned about PE when viewing M42 through a 27 Panoptic.




Who needs GOTO? Not me. Fortunately I have both arms and hands perfect functional, and I find more convenient the way my DM6 tells me where to move the scope by hand. Only thing missing there is tracking, including planet, comet and satellite tracking. For imaging, where we point at very few (if more than one) targets per night, GOTO is even less necessary. GOTO is necessary only for remote operation, which I do not do nor will ever do.
I never liked the feeling of the mount moving and me checking in the dark if I forgot something that will cause an accident. Much more comfortable to move it manually. Not to mention I quite enjoy the feeling of moving a heavy scope perfectly balanced with the tip of my fingers. If on top of that the mount tells where I am, and the direction to move to get my target, that is my game.

Pedro




Good for you and I'm glad you enjoy moving your scope around by hand. I was just responding to a claim that encoders are very important for visual use, that's all. I still say that for visual use, encoders, as stated prior, are a waste of astrodollars.

David


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6278270 - 12/28/13 11:44 PM

Quote:

I was just responding to a claim that encoders are very important for visual use, that's all. I still say that for visual use, encoders, as stated prior, are a waste of astrodollars.

David




And you are certainly welcome to spend your astrodollars as you wish, but I will take any mount (push-to or goto) with on-axis encoders (low resolution, high resolution, absolute or otherwise) for visual observing over one without any day of the week, particularly when it comes to use in light-polluted skies.


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278415 - 12/29/13 02:16 AM

Quote:


Peter, if no Dec backlash is one of your priorities, AP talks about encoders and PE and Dec backlash on their AP1100 website page video (minute 11:40).
Those AP mounts are mechanical works of art, very nice to watch the full video, but the part at 11:40 is the best advertisement on the 1000HPS. I saw that video on the period I was making my decision (Mach1 or AP1100 or 1000HPS, one of the three was for sure), and that video part helped a little towards the 1000HPS. In your case, it may push you to add encoders to your 1100.

Pedro




Pedro,

Do you have a link to the video? I have browsed through their entire site in search for it...

/per


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6278567 - 12/29/13 06:07 AM

Quote:

Pedro,

Do you have a link to the video? I have browsed through their entire site in search for it...

/per




www.astro-physics.com
then click on "Products" on the left,
then click on "1100 GTO..." under "German Equatorial Mounts",
then scroll a bit down and the video is there.

But you can use the direct link to youtube here (minute 11:40):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBMBqoh9WI4

And in fact there is another video on 1100 GTO and encoders, also from NEAF 2013, where AP also talks about PE and Dec Backlash, here (minute 0:50):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16bVLhOrBQI

In both videos AP says the same: encoders virtually eliminate PE and Backlash. Not that it would not be obvious, but I guess that if it is AP saying so, it gets more credit.

Edited by pbsastro (12/29/13 06:14 AM)


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Tonk
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6278912 - 12/29/13 11:01 AM

The OP asks

Quote:

I'm considering purchasing this mount. At $20K a pop I'd like to know more about it than the manufacturer's fluff. Does anyone know anything about this mount? Do you own one? How do you like it?




So after 6 pages we end up learning all about AP stuff instead


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6279047 - 12/29/13 12:10 PM

Quote:


So after 6 pages we end up learning all about AP stuff instead




Haha! Yes, it is amazing how heated this can get!

There is a reasonably large user base with very satisfied customers and more information can be found at http://www.10micron.com/

I bought a GM2000HPS in February of 2012 and a GM1000HPS in March of 2013.

Good stuff.

/per


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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6279254 - 12/29/13 02:09 PM

Quote:

So after 6 pages we end up learning all about AP stuff instead



Thatīs because I'm an AP fanboy


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6279369 - 12/29/13 03:12 PM

Haha! Fanboy... Great term!

I do believe that AP is at the top of the line of pure mechanics, no doubt. I still think they have a bit of a journey in terms of adaption to encoder technology. And they should lose the first gear stage in favor of a belt

/per


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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6280189 - 12/29/13 11:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was just responding to a claim that encoders are very important for visual use, that's all. I still say that for visual use, encoders, as stated prior, are a waste of astrodollars.

David




And you are certainly welcome to spend your astrodollars as you wish, but I will take any mount (push-to or goto) with on-axis encoders (low resolution, high resolution, absolute or otherwise) for visual observing over one without any day of the week, particularly when it comes to use in light-polluted skies.




Like I said, Ed...my used CG5 cost me $475 and once aligned, it finds objects all night long. Of course, if I mess up and loosen a clutch, then I have to do another alignment and that takes about, oh, 10 minutes. Not a big deal for me. Horses for courses.

Now, for imaging, I'm all in with the encoders.

David


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6280402 - 12/30/13 02:40 AM

Quote:

Haha! Fanboy... Great term!

I do believe that AP is at the top of the line of pure mechanics, no doubt. I still think they have a bit of a journey in terms of adaption to encoder technology. And they should lose the first gear stage in favor of a belt

/per




Just having the software to control the encoders would be nice. AKA APCC. Until apcc is released the AP encoders are nothing more than dumb encoders like a TDM. All they do is reduce PE and backlash without the closed loop software. An AP mount with encoders ,as it stands right now, can't even track a comet.

Even though APCC is in public beta, it could still take a few years until release if we take precidence into account with the apcc software developers previous software development and updates. (The mythical pempro 3) Also new firmware chips need to be installed for APCC. Currently you will need a U chip. Not free for certain mounts. Talking about technology..... What happened to software firmware updates?


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Tonk
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6280467 - 12/30/13 04:44 AM

Quote:

Until apcc is released the AP encoders are nothing more than dumb encoders like a TDM. All they do is reduce PE and backlash without the closed loop software. An AP mount with encoders ,as it stands right now, can't even track a comet.




Which is the very nice thing with 10 Micron stuff - its all there, integral with the mount, all inclusive. Tracks satellites, comets, asteroids with precision out of the box without the need for external computer hook ups (it has its own embedded Linux computer, but you do have to preload the ephermeris data for non standard objects), or even waiting for someone to finish writing/debugging the software.

As the OP asks "Do you own one? How do you like it?" - well as I own the same mount controller as the GM2000HPS I can say yes I like it very very much. It does exactly what it says on the tin. Its very easy to use.

The hand controller is great to use even with gloves on. The whole controler thing is intuitive to learn and navigate - especially easy if you are upgrading from a Losmandy Gemini controller. Model building is smooth and efficient and the polar alignment procedures are extremely easy and fast to execute. The results are very very accurate.

Coupled with the mount mechanics and abs encoders (a 1000HPS in my case) the results have been stunning (for me at least I'm easily impressed). I haven't run unguided exposures beyond 10 minutes yet (more to do with sky brightness - I will go longer when I start narrow band imaging), but since being up and running in early August I've not yet dropped a subframe due to tracking issues and thats 400+ subframes so far.

Pointing accuracy righ now for me is better than 20 arc seconds all sky and polar alignment is within 15 arc seconds - its currently on a remote pier under an all-weather tarp, but I am recovering it today as the site/services will be closed for me until March 1st (its a small very pleasant holiday trailer park - it closes for the min of 7 weeks to avoid UK second home taxes). So over the next 2 months I'll be trying it out "mobile" on a tripod (subject to British weather!!! - which usually means 2/3 opportunities max )


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Tonk]
      #6281371 - 12/30/13 03:14 PM

Going off topic:
Ya, so pretty much everyone who bought AP encoders paid $7000 for beta software development. And whats messed up is some people who spent the 7 grand were refused participation in the beta program because they need to spend more money for 3rd party software, such as tpoint, to make APCC Pro workable. Oh, and another $70-$90 for the "U" chip firmware. U have to pay more $ for what really is a BIOS update. They change the ASCOM driver, new chip needed as well. Sheeshee

Oh, 10micron mounts also support multiple communication protocols so you can use a lx200 driver or even the AP GTO protocol.


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Carrera991
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS *DELETED* new [Re: Skunky]
      #6282129 - 12/30/13 08:59 PM

Post deleted by Dave M

Edited by Dave M (02/07/14 09:14 AM)


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Ray Gralak
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Carrera991]
      #6357434 - 02/05/14 11:04 AM


The PEMPro V3 announcement was triggered because I had thought AP was going to launch APCC at AIC that year. The developer (me) had thought I would be freed up to finish and start beta testing on PEMPro V3. In beta testing APCC however there were some firmware issues found and they needed to be fixed. I don't do the firmware so I had no control over its timing but it set into motion a long series of firmware updates and changes to APCC that each took a long time to retest everything. The weather didn't always cooperate and sometimes we heard little feedback from beta testers.

Anyway, PEMPro V3 has been ready for beta testing for a long time but I don't have the bandwidth to handle TWO beta testing programs(APCC and PEMPro), my full-time job as a software engineer and my family life.

So, yes, it's unfortunate that I pulled the trigger on the PEMPro V3 announcement too early. I should have waited but AIC only happened once a year and that was my mistake. Once APCC is launched and support for it dies down the PEMPro V3 beta program will start.

Thanks,

-Ray

Edited by Dave M (02/08/14 10:46 PM)


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Ray Gralak
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6357463 - 02/05/14 11:17 AM



And by the way, I'm also the author of PulseGuide for Astro-Physics mounts and the Astro-Physics V2 ASCOM driver, the latter of which I have been continually updating to work with all versions of AP mount's firmware and also enhancements that work only with APCC. So you can include those as part of my track record of being able to deliver good, stable, working software for Astro-Physics mounts.

-Ray

Edited by Dave M (02/08/14 10:41 PM)


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6357847 - 02/05/14 02:40 PM



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korborh
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6357983 - 02/05/14 03:58 PM

Quote:

We haven't even started to get into how AP charges for firmware updates.. FIRMWARE UPDATES!!




I hear you....having to order a new chip for firmware update everytime is costly and very inefficient. AP really needs to make firmware update available for download.


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Hilmi
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: korborh]
      #6358070 - 02/05/14 04:54 PM

I'm as peeved off about the delay in PEMPro 3 just like the guy next door, but I feel we need to give Ray a break. Only thing he is guilty off is late delivery. His software is otherwise very good. Give credit where it is due. While I have criticized him for late delivery of the above mentioned software, I feel some of the comments against him are borderline disrespectful in tone. Constructive criticism is fine, but when the tone of the criticism goes so far as to belittle all the work that he has done, that is just plain rude.

Software delivery was late, fair enough. Unreliable? Don't agree, just not punctual. As an example, PEMPro is one of the very few programs I have ever used that NEVER crashed on me. He produces top quality code. Maybe that is why it takes so long.


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Ray Gralak
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6358085 - 02/05/14 05:02 PM

Quote:


but they sure will sell you encoders that are bunk without the software.



You're obviously not an engineer, software or otherwise, or even someone has has read up on what the AP encoders are used for... otherwise you would have known better than to write something so wrong.

Encoders remove instantaneous tracking anomalies caused by periodic error, imperfections in each tooth of the worm wheel as well as slow drift caused by any slight eccentricity in the worm wheel. The encoders also are used to remove the effects of backlash and provide for a way to home the mount.

If you want to track an object unguided, accounting for refraction and all other mount effects, I wrote software to do that over 10 years ago. In fact it's included with every AP mount. It's called Pulseguide. You train on an object for a few minutes then you can do long unguided exposures. It works best WITH encoders!

So yes, grandma, no excuses!

-Ray


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Skunky
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6362378 - 02/07/14 04:41 PM

lol!

stepped around that faster than an encoder making corrections..

APCC???


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Ray Gralak
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6365654 - 02/09/14 09:32 AM

Quote:


stepped around that faster than an encoder making corrections..





Not really. I was just hoping to provide you with an understanding of why your statement was wrong. Unfortunately, it's still not clear that you understand. If you email me privately I will gladly attempt to better explain the usefulness of the absolute encoders without APCC. Apparently that myth has been floating around on some of the user groups.

Quote:


APCC???



And your question is???

APCC's in beta testing. Lot's of people are using it. The beta testers have been doing a great job finding the few remaining bugs and I've been fixing them.

Someone quoted "healthcare.gov", maybe even you? That's what can happen when you release complex software too early. I don't think people will have that experience with APCC because I think that Astro-Physics has much higher quality standards than most companies I've seen.

Don't believe me? Ask around and see what people think of the quality of Astro-Physics products. I know AP wants APCC to meet the same stringent standards as the other products they sell. That level of quality in any complex software product simply takes a lot of time to achieve, and thus people "talk". Well what's the talk when you release software too soon? Healthcare.gov??

Anyway, this is way off topic. If you would like to continue this discussion email me privately.

-Ray


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Dave MModerator
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6365677 - 02/09/14 09:49 AM

Please! keep the topic of discussion to the 10 Micron GM2000HPS and NOT Astrophysics software development or releases.
Thank You...


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orlyandico
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #6365790 - 02/09/14 10:44 AM

Quote:

If you want to track an object unguided, accounting for refraction and all other mount effects, I wrote software to do that over 10 years ago. In fact it's included with every AP mount. It's called Pulseguide. You train on an object for a few minutes then you can do long unguided exposures. It works best WITH encoders!




Argh. Really?

I gotta open up my PulseGuide software CD. And here I thought you needed APCC Pro for this particular trick..


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Pinbout
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6377547 - 02/15/14 10:58 AM

ah I found my other vid. I can't believe this mount has only one cable to the head... it is so clean in design.

and the wood tripod superb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56CxM7kt-5c


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Pinbout]
      #6377672 - 02/15/14 12:34 PM

It is an impressive little cable The new version of the 2000 has the same cable and I think the 3000 has as well. The connectors are available so I am thinking of making a slightly longer one...

/per


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6378056 - 02/15/14 04:19 PM

Per or anyone can u tell me about the 2000 HPS Virtual keypad control panel software.

I am using Nexremote to control my celestron cge pro from indoors and love how that throws onto my computer screen an exact replica of the actual hand control.

Is there something similar with the 2000?


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SPACEMAN
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6378295 - 02/15/14 06:40 PM

Hello,

yes the Virtual Keypad Control software is exactly the same as the actual handpad of the 10Micron mount.


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: SPACEMAN]
      #6378378 - 02/15/14 07:26 PM

Is it possible to use the real hand control at the scope and the virtual one at the computer indoors?

With celestron's nexremote you cannot use the real hand control only the virtual one.


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6378652 - 02/15/14 10:18 PM

Quote:

Is it possible to use the real hand control at the scope and the virtual one at the computer indoors?

With celestron's nexremote you cannot use the real hand control only the virtual one.




From the GM1000HPS manual (and the same for all HPS models): "The hand pad and the Virtual Keypad operate in parallel, i.e. the display is the same on both devices and pressing a key on the Virtual Keypad has the same effect as pressing a key on the hand pad." So yes, both the hand pad and the virtual hand pad can be used at the same time.


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jhayes_tucson
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6378821 - 02/16/14 12:48 AM

I'm seriously considering upgrading my C14 mount to either a GM2000HPS or an AP1100 and I've found this whole discussion to be only marginally useful. Here is what I'm intrested in knowing. I have a couple of important criteria. 1) I want absolute, on-axis encoders, and 2) I want a 100% stand alone mount that does not require a PC to operate. I do want the ability to be able to connect a PC should I ever want to, but I don't want a PC to be required. It looks like the 10-um mount will do this--is that correct? Will the AP mount operate with absolute encoders, out of the box, today, with only a hand controller?

Thanks for any light you guys can shed ont his question.
John


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6378831 - 02/16/14 12:59 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Correct, Ed.

They work in parallel and you can press a number outside, go in and press enter. Totally parallel.

The communication is via TCP (or serial if you use that) so you can have the mount in Antarctica and sit on an ice-breaker at the North Pole and work it over Iridium link.

/per


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: jhayes_tucson]
      #6378840 - 02/16/14 01:08 AM

Quote:

I'm seriously considering upgrading my C14 mount to either a GM2000HPS or an AP1100 and I've found this whole discussion to be only marginally useful. Here is what I'm intrested in knowing. I have a couple of important criteria. 1) I want absolute, on-axis encoders, and 2) I want a 100% stand alone mount that does not require a PC to operate. I do want the ability to be able to connect a PC should I ever want to, but I don't want a PC to be required. It looks like the 10-um mount will do this--is that correct? Will the AP mount operate with absolute encoders, out of the box, today, with only a hand controller?

Thanks for any light you guys can shed ont his question.
John




John,

That is 100% correct. No PC required except for firmware updates, encoders always on and never get lost.

I cannot speak for the AP situation because I do not own one, but I *think* you need a PC to get the full benefit. Somebody will have to jump in here and correct me if I am wrong.

All the best,

Per


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6379496 - 02/16/14 01:44 PM

Quote:

Correct, Ed.

They work in parallel and you can press a number outside, go in and press enter. Totally parallel.

The communication is via TCP (or serial if you use that) so you can have the mount in Antarctica and sit on an ice-breaker at the North Pole and work it over Iridium link.
/per




Most excellent
I see there is a wifi card that can be bought as an extra....does this give the virtual keypad wireless control of the mount?


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Pinbout
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: jhayes_tucson]
      #6379680 - 02/16/14 04:14 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Quote:

Will the AP mount operate with absolute encoders, out of the box, today, with only a hand controller?






sorry about the blurry pic but what's out of the box on this price sheet. and I heard the high-end encoders are an additional $8k.


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jhayes_tucson
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Pinbout]
      #6379915 - 02/16/14 07:04 PM

Danny,
Thanks...I understand that on-axis encoders are an option on the AP mount. I believe that I saw some documentation that seemed to indicate that the AP encoder option only works through PC software. I can certainly call the company about this, but I wondered if anyone here who might be using the encoder option can tell me how it works or how it compares to the 10-um mounts. This "feature" is very relevant to my decision about upgrading my mount.
John


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: jhayes_tucson]
      #6380074 - 02/16/14 09:09 PM

Yes, you need a PC to run the AP encoder utility to "Home" the mount and set limits. This software is also used to turn "on" the encoders. Out of the box, it's a krap shot if they are on or off. You only need to verify the encoders are on, home and set limits only once.

I don't have a 10micron to test side by side. If 10,000 of you fund $1 I can get one.. lol!


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6380194 - 02/16/14 10:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Correct, Ed.

They work in parallel and you can press a number outside, go in and press enter. Totally parallel.

The communication is via TCP (or serial if you use that) so you can have the mount in Antarctica and sit on an ice-breaker at the North Pole and work it over Iridium link.
/per




Most excellent
I see there is a wifi card that can be bought as an extra....does this give the virtual keypad wireless control of the mount?




Yes. The Wifi connection acts no different than the cabled Ethernet connection.


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6380398 - 02/17/14 01:55 AM

Is there anything missing or wanting in the full 2000 HPS package?

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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6380406 - 02/17/14 02:03 AM

I cannot answer that as the packages seem to be different from different distributors. What you need is:

Mount head (either divisible or monolithic)
Counter-weights
Pier adapter (or tripod)
Dovetail
Well-regulated 24VDC

The mount itself comes with cables, CW bar, handset, manual and software.

I suggest a visit to Ed's site to see how you can assemble a package.

/per


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6380905 - 02/17/14 11:21 AM

Ok....also...

GPS
WIFI card


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6389563 - 02/21/14 09:52 PM

Quote:

No PC required except for firmware updates, encoders always on and never get lost.




Per, if the encoders are "always on" where does the power to the encoders come from? Or does the positional data remain in memory after the power to the mount is turned off?

Thanks...


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6389664 - 02/21/14 11:18 PM

According to the manual, the 10 Micron can be set up to track an object starting from a point as much as 30 degrees ahead of the meridian (i.e., 30 degrees on "the wrong side" of the meridian), and then continue tracking past the meridian without flipping.

From the A-P we site: the A-P 1100 "will track and guide well past the meridian." Does anyone know how many degrees "well past the meridian" is? And does the AP mount have to begin its tracking run x number of degrees "on the wrong side of the meridian" (like the 10 Micron does) in order to avoid a meridian flip?

Finally, can 10 Micron and A-P mounts be attached to an equatorial wedge (like ASA mounts can) and avoid meridian flips altogether?


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Peter in Reno
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6389726 - 02/22/14 12:11 AM

A-P has no limit to how far past the Meridian. I have imaged as long as 7 hours without flipping with my previous A-P Mach1GTO. All A-P mounts can do that. In most cases, I can image the southern sky from East to West without flipping.

A-P has a feature called "Meridian Delay" that allows you to start from the wrong side (scope under the mount or counterweight above the scope) as far as you can. I think it's six hours.

I have read about fork mounts using A-P control box. All is required to change the firmware from GEM to fork mount. You have to ask A-P about this.

Peter

Edited by Peter in Reno (02/22/14 12:28 AM)


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6389769 - 02/22/14 12:49 AM

Quote:

According to the manual, the 10 Micron can be set up to track an object starting from a point as much as 30 degrees ahead of the meridian (i.e., 30 degrees on "the wrong side" of the meridian), and then continue tracking past the meridian without flipping.

From the A-P we site: the A-P 1100 "will track and guide well past the meridian." Does anyone know how many degrees "well past the meridian" is? And does the AP mount have to begin its tracking run x number of degrees "on the wrong side of the meridian" (like the 10 Micron does) in order to avoid a meridian flip?

Finally, can 10 Micron and A-P mounts be attached to an equatorial wedge (like ASA mounts can) and avoid meridian flips altogether?




For the most part, the ability to track on the wrong side of the meridian and track well past the meridian is constrained by the possibility of the telescope impacting the tripod or pier. There has to be limits because except when the scope is point exactly or very close to east or west, eventually it will hit the tripod.

I have never heard of a GEM like these being attached to a wedge to avoid meridian flips all together. I've not seen that the ASA can be put on a wedge for anything other than getting to very low latitudes. I am only familiar with one modern equatorial mount that doesn't have to ever flip. The only other mounts that I know of that can do it are fork mounts on wedges.


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Peter in Reno
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6389777 - 02/22/14 12:58 AM

I think Larry is referring the "wedge" to something like this:

http://www.astrosysteme.at/eng/mount_ddm160.html

Notice that if RA axis is rotated 360 degrees, the scope cannot collide to the angled pier.

I have seen pictures of A-P mounts just like the link I provided but I can't remember where I saw them.

Peter


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6389782 - 02/22/14 01:09 AM

Quote:


Per, if the encoders are "always on" where does the power to the encoders come from? Or does the positional data remain in memory after the power to the mount is turned off?

Thanks...




Sorry for the late reply. The encoders are absolute in hardware so they need no power in order to "remember" their positions. Think of them as discs with bar code, not just pulses. Every position is read from from the disc, not counted from somewhere.

/per


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6390151 - 02/22/14 09:55 AM

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the replies.

Peter, you are correct. That is what I was referring to.

With a "Z" shaped pier, and a 90 degree latitude adjustment, there is no chance of collisions with the pier. The advantage of the "Z" shaped pier is to allow better weight distribution; but I don't see why a standard vertical concrete pier, anchored to the ground with large enough footings, wouldn't handle the offset weight.

I know that the maximum latitude adjustment for the 10 Micron GM2000HPS is 70 degrees. But I thought it might be possible to keep the 10 Micron at 70 degrees, add a correctly angled wedge, and mount the GM2000HPS on a permanent, verticle concrete pier and achieve the same effective configuration as shown in the above picture... or am I wrong about that? If it could be mounted that way, wouldn't it then be only a matter of a software update that would enable the GM2000HPS to tract from east to west without meridian flips?

Under my light polluted skies, imaging 45 degrees east and west of the meridian becomes a very important feature (to me, at least). That would allow 6 hours of imaging through a decent window of lower light pollution. As it is now, the GM2000HPS limits that to 4 hours (60 degrees).

Edited by elwaine (02/22/14 10:00 PM)


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6390251 - 02/22/14 10:58 AM

I fail to see the purpose of that configuration. Why do you want to track without flipping? Seven-hour exposure?

As the GM2000HPS flips it ends up at exactly the same spot in the sky so flipping is never a disadvantage, nor is it associated with any problems.

All the best,

Per


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6390273 - 02/22/14 11:07 AM

Can someone give me a link to the centaurus tripod in aluminium that is provided now by 10 micron for the 2000 HPS...

I see two types and am confused....one has adjustable feet that stick out from the bottom of each leg whilst the other does not.

Their website is pretty awful.

Thanku


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6390287 - 02/22/14 11:12 AM

Quote:

As the GM2000HPS flips it ends up at exactly the same spot in the sky so flipping is never a disadvantage, nor is it associated with any problems.




Of course. I'm way over-thinking this. Thank you Per.

It's been a decade since I sold my 12.5" RCOS RC and my A-P 1200 goto. I haven't done any serious imaging since then. I am now starting to re-educate myself in preparation for a permanent observatory that I am planning. A decade ago, meridian flips required re-centering the image. I have to get used to the fact that technology has advanced quite a bit further than I have while I was away from the hobby.


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6390307 - 02/22/14 11:18 AM

Quote:

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the replies.

Peter, you are correct. This is what I was referring to:


With a "Z" shaped pier, and a 90 degree latitude adjustment, there is no chance of collisions with the pier. The advantage of the "Z" shaped pier is to allow better weight distribution; but I don't see why a standard vertical concrete pier, anchored to the ground with large enough footings, wouldn't handle the offset weight.

I know that the maximum latitude adjustment for the 10 Micron GM2000HPS is 70 degrees. But I thought it might be possible to keep the 10 Micron at 70 degrees, add a correctly angled wedge, and mount the GM2000HPS on a permanent, verticle concrete pier and achieve the same effective configuration as shown in the above picture... or am I wrong about that? If it could be mounted that way, wouldn't it then be only a matter of a software update that would enable the GM2000HPS to tract from east to west without meridian flips?

Under my light polluted skies, imaging 45 degrees east and west of the meridian becomes a very important feature (to me, at least). That would allow 6 hours of imaging through a decent window of lower light pollution. As it is now, the GM2000HPS limits that to 4 hours (60 degrees).




I had not seen that before. The problem is that the mount is designed specifically for that configuration only. Many GEMs cannot do that for a couple of reasons. GEMs that are mounted between two plates for latitude adjustment tend to have things like polar scopes and cables that will not allow the mount to go all the way to 90 degrees so that the only way to get to 90 degrees is to use a small wedge to allow for the additional 10 to 20 degrees necessary. The GM1000HPS is not mounted between plates so it has an option to go to 90 degrees but the GM2000HPS and above would require some kind of wedge. Once you get the mount to 90 degrees then the problem you have is that the RA axis is still very close to the base of the mount (unlike the ASA) which limits the length of any OTA you could use without hitting the pier. That would still be the case with the ASA as well, but it is designed to have more room so it can handle a longer OTA. If you want to simply increase the amount of time before having to flip, all you should need to do once you are in a 90 degree configuration on a latitude pier is change the slew limits in the software. I would have to ask about just how far the limits can be adjusted, but there are no hard stops on the 10Micron and I don't think on the AP either, so theoretically they could be eliminated completely. Of course you would have to be careful of cable twist in any case (internal or external cabling).

One thing to remember with the mounts up in this category is that they are usually very good and very accurate (and even very fast) at flipping, particularly when using absolute encoders. So unless you are imaging something that requires such a long exposure that it will take you through the meridian flip during the image, the accuracy of the flip is typically not an issue.

Larry, what scope are you imaging with?

Edited by Dave M (02/22/14 10:59 PM)


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6390323 - 02/22/14 11:28 AM

Quote:

Can someone give me a link to the centaurus tripod in aluminium that is provided now by 10 micron for the 2000 HPS...

I see two types and am confused....one has adjustable feet that stick out from the bottom of each leg whilst the other does not.

Their website is pretty awful.

Thanku




I need to get the photo of these up on the website. I'm not sure what website you were looking at with two different tripods as you describe. There has been a change to the Centaurus tripod to add an upper support/lock but there hasn't been a change to the feet that I am aware of.



Edited by EFT (02/22/14 11:47 AM)


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GIR
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6390473 - 02/22/14 12:43 PM

Quote:



I had not seen that before. The problem is that the mount is designed specifically for that configuration only.




Not quite true. The same configuration is used with the ASA DDM85 series mount also. (see bottom of the page)

modified equatorial pier

In addition I know a ASA mount owner who has built the same kind of custom pier for his DDM60 just to avoid meridian flip. So it can be used with all ASA mounts.
And even Per doesn't see the purpose of that configuration others do because many mount buyers have picked that option for their mounts


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6390490 - 02/22/14 12:52 PM

I don't know. Simply haven't had the need to image for that long exposures. If you can go one sub past the meridian so that you don't have to wait for flips, then all is accomplished and every minute is used for imaging.

If you are in a hurry then run the GM2000HPS at its full slew speed of 20į/s...

/per


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6390511 - 02/22/14 01:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:



I had not seen that before. The problem is that the mount is designed specifically for that configuration only.




Not quite true. The same configuration is used with the ASA DDM85 series mount also. (see bottom of the page)

modified equatorial pier

In addition I know a ASA mount owner who has built the same kind of custom pier for his DDM60 just to avoid meridian flip. So it can be used with all ASA mounts.
And even Per doesn't see the purpose of that configuration others do because many mount buyers have picked that option for their mounts




But the point remains true. The mount has been specifically designed so that the end of the RA housing can be attached directly to an equatorial pier (i.e., the end of the RA housing is flat with no cables, polar scope, etc.) and the normal mount base eliminated. In the case of the DDM85, it can be mounted normally or on an equatorial pier, but it is specifically designed for that whereas most standard GEMs are not and require the use of the normal mount base which makes mounting on an equatorial pier problematic.

Per's point was that such a mounting is unnecessary, high slew speeds, and the ability to slew well past the meridian with a flip makes meridian flips a non-issue for the most part. The ability of some mounts to be mounted in this fashion does not make them better as you will surely want to argue as always, it simply allows them to reach the same end result in yet another manner (for yet an additional cost to equipment that is already quite expensive). That is, good results from long (potentially unguided) imaging. And while you want to say "many", that term would have to be qualified with what that term means when applied to $40,000+ mounts (not to mention that it is purely speculation on your part). It is clearly not necessary for the DDM85 to be mounted this way and I suspect that most are not, but it is an option.

Edited by Dave M (02/26/14 04:46 AM)


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6390517 - 02/22/14 01:10 PM

Quote:

Larry, what scope are you imaging with?




Ed, I'm not doing any AP at present. I have an FSQ 106 EDXIII that I'm currently using for visual until I get back to imaging. I want to use my scopes for both visual and AP, so i plan to buy a TAK TOA 150b and a Mewlon 250 CRS (or maybe a 300). RC's, or one of the corrected DK's with large central obstructions, will limit it's use to AP only, so I probably won't go that route again. The three TAKs will meet my combined visual and imaging interests and should also be a good match for the skies in SW Florida. In any case, I have a while to go before ordering anything.

I'm too old and too lazy to mount and dismount scopes weighing more than 20 lb., so I'm looking at a GM3000HSP-class mount to carry everything, including cameras, etc., without breaking a sweat. Having had the benefit of your service and support with my T-Rex and accessories, I was delighted to learn that you are the 10 Micron man here in the States.


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psandelle
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6390554 - 02/22/14 01:31 PM

As an ASA-going-to-buy-next-mount kind of guy, I was aware of these modified equatorial piers since I first started looking (I mean, they are on the website, and have been for a while). I think, when the time comes and I build that observatory on the side of Mauna Kea, yeah, I might get one. If something better hasn't come along. (And, it ISN'T necessary, as things have gotten so fast and accurate on the flip, it doesn't apply anymore - it's just "another way").

But it's just a tiny option for a limited set of circumstances (yep, won't work mobile...I wish, but it won't, unless you JUST go to one site, never move it, etc., and put wheels on the dang thing). I think it's cool. I think that a custom pier of this type might work for other mounts (if the logistics work out), but if not, I don't think it's a HUGE deal breaker. If it were, then the 10Micron full modelling in the handset would be an even bigger deal breaker for mobile. And yet, I'm getting an ASA for mobile (because I want that hub in the mount and no cables). But I'm still tempted by the great 10Micron.

I think these are all tremendously good mounts with enough differences to make it interesting and malleable to the needs of different people. It's like when I had Ferraris...not like I didn't respect Lambos (too flashy for me) or Porsches (I grew up in the back seat of one, so, not for me) or McLarens (just too dang expensive). I would have taken ANY of them for the fun of it. But I chose Ferraris to fit MY needs. There was NO right answer across the board, other than the one that fit my particular needs.

Anyway, I follow all these upper-tier threads to learn stuff and see what people are doing with them (and if anything new comes along), but I would take any of them in a second, if someone gave me one. And buying one does not in any way make any of the others lesser. Just different strokes for different folks. Which, I think, is cool.

Now where's my space telescope?

Paul


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Peter in Reno
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: psandelle]
      #6390575 - 02/22/14 01:41 PM

Whether it's necessary or not to use "Z" shaped pier, it's a personal preference, that's all. Some people just don't like or want to do Meridian flipping. One less step to do and sometimes it is a major step. One thing appear to be missing in ASA's "Z" pier is through the mount cabling. I am a big fan of through the mount cabling. I never once have to worry or even think about cables getting caught while I am sleeping during imaging session.

Bottom line I find "Z" pier very cool!

Peter

Edited by Peter in Reno (02/22/14 01:44 PM)


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GIR
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6390582 - 02/22/14 01:43 PM

Quote:


But the point remains true. The mount has been specifically designed so that the end of the RA housing can be attached directly to an equatorial pier (i.e., the end of the RA housing is flat with no cables, polar scope, etc.) and the normal mount base eliminated. In the case of the DDM85, it can be mounted normally or on an equatorial pier, but it is specifically designed for that whereas most standard GEMs are not and require the use of the normal mount base which makes mounting on an equatorial pier problematic.

Before you start beating your normal ASA drum on a 10Micron thread again, Per's point was that such a mounting is unnecessary, even for the ASA mounts since absolute encoding, high slew speeds, and the ability to slew well past the meridian with a flip makes meridian flips a non-issue for the most part. The ability of some of the ASA mounts to be mounted in this fashion does not make them better as you will surely want to argue as always, it simply allows them to reach the same end result in yet another manner (for yet an additional cost to equipment that is already quite expensive). That is, good results from long (potentially unguided) imaging. And while you want to say "many", that term would have to be qualified with what that term means when applied to $40,000+ mounts (not to mention that it is purely speculation on your part unless you work for ASA). It is clearly not necessary for the DDM85 to be mounted this way and I suspect that most are not, but it is an option.




Ed,

There seem to be a lot of time and effort used trying to prove that many technical innovations ASA has developed are somehow faulty or no good, and at the same time all 10Micron solutions are so great. And Iím sure youíre a completely non bias guy even youíre selling 10Micron mounts but I wish youíd stop those personal attacks ÖIím not beating any ASA drums, just trying to put straight some of those very odd claims presented here, and am certainly not connected to ASA in anyway.

P.S. you might want to read my previous post again because I didn't say anything about ASA mounts being better just that ASA is providing that kind of an option. Everything else is purely your imagination.


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: GIR]
      #6390635 - 02/22/14 02:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:


But the point remains true. The mount has been specifically designed so that the end of the RA housing can be attached directly to an equatorial pier (i.e., the end of the RA housing is flat with no cables, polar scope, etc.) and the normal mount base eliminated. In the case of the DDM85, it can be mounted normally or on an equatorial pier, but it is specifically designed for that whereas most standard GEMs are not and require the use of the normal mount base which makes mounting on an equatorial pier problematic.

Before you start beating your normal ASA drum on a 10Micron thread again, Per's point was that such a mounting is unnecessary, even for the ASA mounts since absolute encoding, high slew speeds, and the ability to slew well past the meridian with a flip makes meridian flips a non-issue for the most part. The ability of some of the ASA mounts to be mounted in this fashion does not make them better as you will surely want to argue as always, it simply allows them to reach the same end result in yet another manner (for yet an additional cost to equipment that is already quite expensive). That is, good results from long (potentially unguided) imaging. And while you want to say "many", that term would have to be qualified with what that term means when applied to $40,000+ mounts (not to mention that it is purely speculation on your part unless you work for ASA). It is clearly not necessary for the DDM85 to be mounted this way and I suspect that most are not, but it is an option.




Ed,

There seem to be a lot of time and effort used trying to prove that many technical innovations ASA has developed are somehow faulty or no good, and at the same time all 10Micron solutions are so great. And Iím sure youíre a completely non bias guy even youíre selling 10Micron mounts but I wish youíd stop those personal attacks ÖIím not beating any ASA drums, just trying to put straight some of those very odd claims presented here, and am certainly not connected to ASA in anyway.

P.S. you might want to read my previous post again because I didn't say anything about ASA mounts being better just that ASA is providing that kind of an option. Everything else is purely your imagination.




GIR,

No one has spent any time trying to prove that the ASA developments are faulty or no good. In fact, there are other mounts that use similar methods to achieving a position where a meridian flips are not necessary including mounts from Chronos, Avalon, and even the 16" Meade LX200. There are some benefits to this type of configuration, but not such that the results from it are unmatched with other methods. The point is not that it is bad or doesn't work, it is that is it simply a different method to get to the same end. However, even with the ASA mounts, such a configuration is not as necessary as it use to be. Meridian flips in the high end mounts are now very accurate and take almost nothing from an imaging session. That was not the case not too long ago for many companies. Would you argue that the ASA mounts on standard bases are unable to image as well as those on the Z pier? I think not. Just different means to the same ends.

No one made a claim that the ASA Z-pier was bad. Just go back and read the posts yourself. The real problem is that your assumption is always that people are putting down ASA and that is where you come in beating a drum to defend them even when no one has put them down and when the thrust of the thread has nothing to do with the ASA mounts and you have done this repeatedly. This is not a personal attack and was not meant to be, it is an observation made by myself and others on numerous occasions, particularly when you have come into threads about other companies' mounts. My hope was simply to head you off from going into another one of these ASA sessions. You said your peace on the equatorial pier idea here and I only hope that you do not try to steer this into yet another ASA discussion. I really don't understand why you don't start threads about the ASA mounts since you always want to talk about them so much and they are worth talking about.

P.S. None of us are without bias, but some of us try very hard to look at things from all angles and present things as factually as possible, but as humans were are all imperfect. As I said elsewhere recently, putting down other's products is no way to promote your own.


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GIR
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6390666 - 02/22/14 02:45 PM

Quote:



No one made a claim that the ASA Z-pier was bad. Just go back and read the posts yourself. The real problem is that your assumption is always that people are putting down ASA and that is where you come in beating a drum to defend them even when no one has put them down and when the thrust of the thread has nothing to do with the ASA mounts and you have done this repeatedly. This is not a personal attack and was not meant to be, it is an observation made by myself and others on numerous occasions, particularly when you have come into threads about other companies' mounts. My hope was simply to head you off from going into another one of these ASA sessions. You said your peace on the equatorial pier idea here and I only hope that you do not try to steer this into yet another ASA discussion. I really don't understand why you don't start threads about the ASA mounts since you always want to talk about them so much and they are worth talking about.






Ed,

I really donít understand what is your problem here. You keep hinting all kinds of odd things and all I did was provided a link to an issue already raised beforeÖ a modified equatorial pier by ASA, and said itís an option also to other mounts than DDM160. A topic already commented by other people including yourself. For some reason my comment was too much for you
Anyway, let's continue with issues related to the topic...


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Art43
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6393542 - 02/24/14 01:12 AM

What is the difference or updates between the 10 Micron GM2000HPS, the 10 Micron GM 1000 HPS and their ... HPS II versions?

http://www.10micron.eu/english/news.htm

Regards,


A


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Art43]
      #6393921 - 02/24/14 09:46 AM

Quote:

What is the difference or updates between the 10 Micron GM2000HPS, the 10 Micron GM 1000 HPS and their ... HPS II versions?

http://www.10micron.eu/english/news.htm

Regards,
A




The original GM2000HPS had boxy motor enclosures and the optional pier-style computer that connected to the mount with three cables.



The GM2000HPS II has been updated with more streamlined motor enclosures and the single cable going from the computer to the mount. The hand controller and the functions of the mount remain the same.



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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6393936 - 02/24/14 09:59 AM

Oh boy..

I love this mount


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guyroch
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6394181 - 02/24/14 12:35 PM

Quote:

Oh boy..

I love this mount




Me too, March can't come soon enough so they ship mine. I've been in Germany for 3 weeks (got back yesterday) and I almost jumped on a plane and fly the short hop to Italy to see them first hand before mine get's shipped next month.



Guylain


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mmalik
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6394226 - 02/24/14 12:59 PM

Quote:

The GM2000HPS II has been updated with more streamlined motor enclosures and the single cable going from the computer to the mount. The hand controller and the functions of the mount remain the same.




Is there such a thing as GM1000HPS II?


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: mmalik]
      #6394277 - 02/24/14 01:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The GM2000HPS II has been updated with more streamlined motor enclosures and the single cable going from the computer to the mount. The hand controller and the functions of the mount remain the same.




Is there such a thing as GM1000HPS II?




No. The GM1000HPS was essentially the beginning of the HPS II line.


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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: guyroch]
      #6394387 - 02/24/14 02:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Oh boy..

I love this mount




Me too, March can't come soon enough so they ship mine. I've been in Germany for 3 weeks (got back yesterday) and I almost jumped on a plane and fly the short hop to Italy to see them first hand before mine get's shipped next month.



Guylain





Is this when the Mk 2's start to be shipped...in March?

Do post a full report when you receive yours.


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6394406 - 02/24/14 03:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Oh boy..

I love this mount




Me too, March can't come soon enough so they ship mine. I've been in Germany for 3 weeks (got back yesterday) and I almost jumped on a plane and fly the short hop to Italy to see them first hand before mine get's shipped next month.



Guylain





Is this when the Mk 2's start to be shipped...in March?

Do post a full report when you receive yours.




Yes, the first production batch of GM2000HPS mounts are set to ship in March.


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WesC
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6394422 - 02/24/14 03:12 PM

That updated 2000 looks great. very nice improvements.

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HowardK
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: WesC]
      #6394661 - 02/24/14 05:32 PM

Just saw your ad in astronomy technology today Ed......

Best of luck to you as US distributor of these wonderful mounts.


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6395026 - 02/24/14 09:23 PM

Hi,

How do you do a polar alignment without a polar alignment scope?

Thanks,

Timm


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6395119 - 02/24/14 10:17 PM

Quote:

Hi,

How do you do a polar alignment without a polar alignment scope?

Thanks,

Timm




It's quite simple. You do at least a 3 star alignment, then you can either look at the alignment data which will tell you how much to turn the alt and az knobs to polar align or you can run the polar alignment routine which will slew to a star you select and then you center the star using the alt and az knobs. After that you can do a new three-star alignment and check to see if you are as close as you want and either do the polar alignment again or leave it as is. The first iteration of the polar alignment will usually get you close enough to go 5 to 10 minutes without significant rotation. The longer you want your single exposures to be, the better you want the polar alignment.


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6395167 - 02/24/14 10:52 PM

How do you start the process - is there a way to do a rough alignment?

thanks

Timm


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Pinbout
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6395184 - 02/24/14 11:03 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56CxM7kt-5c&feature=youtube_gdata_playerq...

How do you start the process - is there a way to do a rough alignment?

thanks

Timm




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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6395195 - 02/24/14 11:10 PM

Quote:

How do you start the process - is there a way to do a rough alignment?

thanks

Timm




My process with the GM2000HPS is that I put my smart phone with a compass application down on the tripod to get it pointed roughly north (you can also use it to level with a different application), put the mount on the tripod, eyeball Polaris through the telescope if I have changed latitude substantially, and then start the 3-star alignment. With the GM1000HPS you can use a green laser pointer in a bracket on the side of the mount to get you roughly pointed at Polaris and then start the alignment process.


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Pinbout]
      #6395236 - 02/24/14 11:27 PM

Cool - thanks!

Timm


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6402020 - 02/28/14 01:58 PM

I was surprised how many videos I found on YouTube regarding 10 Micron products!

Thanks for this thread, and tonight after I win the Mega Millions, I will start planning my permanent observatory around one of these.

Timm


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psandelle
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6402037 - 02/28/14 02:05 PM

Timm,

I believe the order after winning the Mega Millions is:

1. Order mount.
2. Buy Chicago.
3. Turn off all the lights in Chicago.


Paul


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epdreher
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: psandelle]
      #6402103 - 02/28/14 02:30 PM

Quote:

Timm,

I believe the order after winning the Mega Millions is:

1. Order mount.
2. Buy Chicago.
3. Turn off all the lights in Chicago.






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guyroch
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: epdreher]
      #6402118 - 02/28/14 02:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Timm,

I believe the order after winning the Mega Millions is:

1. Order mount.
2. Buy Chicago.
3. Turn off all the lights in Chicago.









Al Capone is back?



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Skunky
sage


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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: HowardK]
      #6402251 - 02/28/14 03:56 PM

Quote:

Oh boy..

I love this mount




I wish I would have went the way you went.. CGE-Pro to 10micron. I went CGE-Pro to Astro-Physics and regret it.


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6402254 - 02/28/14 03:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The GM2000HPS II has been updated with more streamlined motor enclosures and the single cable going from the computer to the mount. The hand controller and the functions of the mount remain the same.




Is there such a thing as GM1000HPS II?




No. The GM1000HPS was essentially the beginning of the HPS II line.




How about the 3000's and 4000's?


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: guyroch]
      #6402638 - 02/28/14 08:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Timm,

I believe the order after winning the Mega Millions is:

1. Order mount.
2. Buy Chicago.
3. Turn off all the lights in Chicago.









Al Capone is back?







Hey - I was just looking at Backyard EOS, trying to figure out if it something I could use. Don't want to hijack this thread though.

Thanks,

Timm


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Skunky]
      #6402644 - 02/28/14 09:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The GM2000HPS II has been updated with more streamlined motor enclosures and the single cable going from the computer to the mount. The hand controller and the functions of the mount remain the same.




Is there such a thing as GM1000HPS II?




No. The GM1000HPS was essentially the beginning of the HPS II line.




How about the 3000's and 4000's?




The 3000 and 4000 are all of the newer, single-cable variety. I think that only GM2000HPS had an early version.


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6402645 - 02/28/14 09:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Timm,

I believe the order after winning the Mega Millions is:

1. Order mount.
2. Buy Chicago.
3. Turn off all the lights in Chicago.









Al Capone is back?







Hey - I was just looking at Backyard EOS, trying to figure out if it something I could use. Don't want to hijack this thread though.

Thanks,

Timm




Yes. There is a thread in the Vendors section about it.


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6403348 - 03/01/14 08:42 AM

Quote:

I wish I would have went the way you went.. CGE-Pro to 10micron. I went CGE-Pro to Astro-Physics and regret it.




Skunky, I also like what I am reading about 10 Micron. What do you like better about the 10 Micron mounts than your A-P (1600, IIRC)?


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epdreher
sage


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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6403392 - 03/01/14 09:27 AM

An excellent question, Larry. My choice for a future "dream mount" is down to these two: Mach 1 vs. 10Micron GM1000HPS.

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pbsastro
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: epdreher]
      #6403832 - 03/01/14 01:29 PM

Quote:

An excellent question, Larry. My choice for a future "dream mount" is down to these two: Mach 1 vs. 10Micron GM1000HPS.



The facts are easy, the choice is yours and may not be easy.
Mach1 has much higher capacity/weight ratio. Everything else 10Micron is better.
For me the most important factor was capacity/weight ratio, so it was very difficult for me to choose 10micron in the end. But when faced with much lighter mount vs much advanced mount, I had to sacrifice weight and went with 1000HPS.


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: pbsastro]
      #6404223 - 03/01/14 05:18 PM

The GM1000HPS is the only production mount with the single cable solution. The GM3000 and the new HPS II versions will all feature the single cable.

GM3000 and GM4000 also lack friction couplings, and instead haev worm engagement devices.

/per


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6404297 - 03/01/14 06:01 PM

Quote:

The GM1000HPS is the only production mount with the single cable solution. The GM3000 and the new HPS II versions will all feature the single cable.

GM3000 and GM4000 also lack friction couplings, and instead haev worm engagement devices.

/per




I'm confused, I thought Mach 1 had a capacity of 45lbs and the GM1000 had a capacity of 55lbs - or at least that is what they both advertise, no?

Timm

Oh, and I didn't win the MegaMillions.... yet

Edited by timmbottoni (03/01/14 06:18 PM)


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elwaine
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6404429 - 03/01/14 07:19 PM

Quote:

GM3000 and GM4000 also lack friction couplings, and instead haev worm engagement devices.

/per




Per, could you elaborate on that a bit. I.e., what are the benefits of worm engagement devices as opposed to friction couplings?


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6404445 - 03/01/14 07:28 PM

Larry, a GM4000 mount weighs so much that it has to be lifted into the observatory with a crane or something similar. When you lift the mount that way you should have the worms disconnected, so the 3000 and 4000 have a device thing similar to the Paramounts. It has three positions; free-wheeling, locked and engaged worm.

Another reason is that if you lift a heavy mount with frictions, there is no guarantee that the friction is enough and the mount may the tumble or something.

This is standard on professional observatory mounts and nothing out of the ordinary. The size of a GM4000 is almost intimidating

/per


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6404449 - 03/01/14 07:31 PM

Quote:

The GM1000HPS is the only production mount with the single cable solution. The GM3000 and the new HPS II versions will all feature the single cable.

GM3000 and GM4000 also lack friction couplings, and instead haev worm engagement devices.

/per




I'm not sure if that is clear. All four of the mounts are in production and all four use the single cable connection from the computer to the mount.

The difference in the clutch designs is that on the GM1000HPS and GM2000HPS a slip clutch is used on both axes. On the GM1000HPS there are two clutch knobs on each axis. On the GM2000HPS there are four clutch knobs on each axis. This is the type of clutch that we are generally familiar with on many mounts and works simply by applying pressure to a clutch plate to hold the axis in place.

The GM3000HPS and GM4000HPS use a mechanism which disengages the worm from the wheel in order to release the axis. This type of mechanism is more common in larger mounts that are meant to carry substantial loads.


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6404457 - 03/01/14 07:34 PM

Quote:

Larry, a GM4000 mount weighs so much that it has to be lifted into the observatory with a crane or something similar. When you lift the mount that way you should have the worms disconnected, so the 3000 and 4000 have a device thing similar to the Paramounts. It has three positions; free-wheeling, locked and engaged worm.

Another reason is that if you lift a heavy mount with frictions, there is no guarantee that the friction is enough and the mount may the tumble or something.

This is standard on professional observatory mounts and nothing out of the ordinary. The size of a GM4000 is almost intimidating

/per




The GM3000HPS is not as large, but four of us lifted it up onto the pier at ASAE using a solid bar run through a couple of eyes attached to the DEC axis head. Two younger people with good backs might be able to do it.

Edited by EFT (03/01/14 07:49 PM)


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6404465 - 03/01/14 07:38 PM

Quote:

I'm confused, I thought Mach 1 had a capacity of 45lbs and the GM1000 had a capacity of 55lbs - or at least that is what they both advertise, no?

Timm

Oh, and I didn't win the MegaMillions.... yet




The GM1000HPS has an imaging load capacity rated at 45 pounds and visual capacity at 55 pounds. I think what was being referred to is that the Mach weighs 32 pounds whereas the GM1000HPS weighs 43 pounds.

Edited by EFT (03/01/14 07:50 PM)


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epdreher
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6404545 - 03/01/14 08:18 PM

If the difference is only 11 pounds, I've made my future choice.

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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6404547 - 03/01/14 08:20 PM

Thanks - 45lbs seems like a lot for imaging. Just wondering how big a refractor that would be?

Timm


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EFT
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6404673 - 03/01/14 09:42 PM

Quote:

Thanks - 45lbs seems like a lot for imaging. Just wondering how big a refractor that would be?

Timm




In regards to a refractor that would be pretty large. The TEC 180 is 36.5 pounds and still a somewhat manageable length at f/7. The thing with large refractors is that many of them get very long which can require substantial mounting just to account for the large moment arm of the scope. We had a TEC 180 on the GM3000HPS at ASAE and it looked a little small on that, but it would be pretty large on the GM1000HPS. 45 pounds can handle many good triplet refractors, a C11 plus imaging gear and other similar size CATs and MAKs. Some imaging Newtonians would work as well, but you have to watch out for length with them as well.


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Per Frejvall
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6404963 - 03/02/14 01:41 AM

Ed, I may be wrong, but my impression is that the HPS II mounts are in production but not yet delivered. If that is the case, then the GM1000HPS is the only mount in the series,to date delivered to end users, that has the single cable.

Nonetheless, the important thing is that whatever yo buy today (except the GM4000, which I do not thing is ready in the HPS II version yet) will have the single cable solution.

I agree about the difficulties in judging the imaging capacity of a mount. It may be better to take into account the length and weight distribution of the kit, just like you do when calculating weight and balance in preparation for an aircraft flight.

/per


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Tonk
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6405076 - 03/02/14 05:24 AM

Regarding low weight CF imaging newtonians on 10Micron mounts ....

I've worked out with the help of an ASA dealer in the UK that the ASA 10" N-series astrograph is a very good match with the GM1000HPS (approx 12Kg for OTA, Wynne corrector, rings and focuser ). With an imaging limit of 20.4kg you get a 8.5Kg "buffer" for cameras, adapters and dovetail plate etc.

However the ASA 12" with rings, Wynne aand focuser is already 20Kg leaving no adequate buffer for cameras etc, so this scope is better on an GM2000HPS.

Hope this helps someone


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pbsastro
professor emeritus
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: EFT]
      #6405194 - 03/02/14 09:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm confused, I thought Mach 1 had a capacity of 45lbs and the GM1000 had a capacity of 55lbs - or at least that is what they both advertise, no?

Timm

Oh, and I didn't win the MegaMillions.... yet




The GM1000HPS has an imaging load capacity rated at 45 pounds and visual capacity at 55 pounds. I think what was being referred to is that the Mach weighs 32 pounds whereas the GM1000HPS weighs 43 pounds.




My 1000HPS, without any plate attached weights 44.5 lbs. The Mach1 is specified at 28 lbs. The 32 value is with counterweight shaft, which puts the 1000HPS at 48.5 pounds. Both shafts are 4 pounds. So the difference is 16 pounds. And I think, not sure, the Mach1 value already includes the rotational adapter, although with 1000HPS you can choose to leave it permanently attached to the tripod.

Oh, I was talking about capacity/weight ratio, which is higher for the Mach1 although the 1000HPS has higher capacity.

Edited by pbsastro (03/02/14 09:29 AM)


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elwaine
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Reged: 06/18/06

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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: timmbottoni]
      #6405432 - 03/02/14 11:20 AM

Quote:

Thanks - 45lbs seems like a lot for imaging. Just wondering how big a refractor that would be?




Quote:

I've worked out with the help of an ASA dealer in the UK that the ASA 10" N-series astrograph is a very good match with the GM1000HPS (approx 12Kg for OTA, Wynne corrector, rings and focuser ). With an imaging limit of 20.4kg you get a 8.5Kg "buffer" for cameras, adapters and dovetail plate etc.




When making a decision about which mount to purchase for astrophotography, it would be a mistake to simply look at the "rated" imaging load of a mount and the total weight of the imaging train (telescope, camera, filter wheel, etc.). As Ed already mentioned, the longer the OTA, the sturdier the mount needs to be. In addition, two other extremely important considerations (often over-looked by less experienced imagers) are the focal length (FL) at which one intends to image and the focal ratio (FR) of the telescope's optics.

The faster the optics and the shorter the FL, the less demanding the imaging system is on the mount that carries it. Conversely, imaging at long FL and slow optics requires a larger mount capacity for the same weight telescope.

E.g., the ASA 10N has a FR of f/3.8, a FL of 950mm, a tube length of 790mm and weighs 24 lbs. That astrograph on a GM 1000HPS sounds like a great combination for AP.

Compare that with a C9.25 Edge HD, which has a FR of f/10, a FL of 2350mm, a tube length of 560mm and a weight of 21 lbs. It is 230mm shorter and weighs 3 lb. less than the ASA 10N. Can one obtain satisfactory images using a C9.25 (at f/10) on a GM 1000HPS? Yes. But if one wants excellent (publishable quality) images while avoiding fits of frustration and hours trying to photoshop sub-optimal images, I'd highly recommend a GM 2000HPS with a C9.25... especially if one wants to take advantage of the C9.25's image scale at f/10 and/or acquire images in Ha to combat light pollution.


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timmbottoni
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Re: 10 Micron GM2000HPS new [Re: elwaine]
      #6405519 - 03/02/14 12:10 PM

Thanks for all the great comments and feedback. I'm really looking down the road, when I retire near Ed, in AZ, away from all this light pollution and snow. I think I will want to be somewhere that I can have a permanent setup.

That's why I'm interested

Thanks,

Timm


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