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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Whichwayisnorth
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/04/11

Loc: Southern California
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: tazer]
      #6357642 - 02/05/14 12:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The rule of thumb is that when a manufacturer states an instrument capacity for visual you don't want to go over 50% of that weight for AP and expect good results. That would put the CEM60 in the 30lbs for AP category while the Mach1GTO is at 45lbs.




The Mach1GTO is rated by AP at 45lbs, so wouldn't the 50% rule would put the AP payload at 22.5lbs? I don't know if it's been established to be able to carry a higher weight for AP use or not, but their rating for the mount has the caveat "Remember also that imaging requirements are more rigid than visual observation."





AP is very very conservative with their capacity estimates. The 45lbs is actually their spec for photography as it can easily handle much much more for visual. When Astro Physics makes a weight claim you can count on it being valid for long exposure deep sky astro photography.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: rkayakr]
      #6357644 - 02/05/14 12:47 PM

Quote:

Ed
I thought that the "a la cart" option includes a 13.2 lb counterweight.

" The LINEAR A la Carte Option begins with the following:

LINEAR Fast Reverse German Equatorial Mount
STARGO GoTo system
Manual hand paddle
Mount carrying handle
D-series dovetail saddle
Polar finder
One (1) 13.2 lbs. (6 kg) counterweights"




Yes, you are correct. I just reacted to the no saddle statement without thinking.

Thanks,
Ed.


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Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6357649 - 02/05/14 12:48 PM

Quote:

IMHO the real disruptive mount today is 10Micron.




BINGO - ain't that the truth! It is likely to change my purchasing decision on the high end.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #6357654 - 02/05/14 12:50 PM

Quote:

My mistake. I'll edit my post. Regardless that option is way out of my budget unfortunately. I am going to save though and eventually I'll buy the 10-micron from you.




Someone else already took care of it better than I did. Nothing cheap about these little red Ferrari, but at least they are in the small group below $10.


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Whichwayisnorth
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/04/11

Loc: Southern California
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6357656 - 02/05/14 12:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

IMHO the real disruptive mount today is 10Micron.




BINGO - ain't that the truth! It is likely to change my purchasing decision on the high end.




Wait what? But don't you have an LX850? What is "high end" if not the LX850? What would the 10-micron offer that is an improvement? Are you planning on going with a 20" CDK?


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Whichwayisnorth
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/04/11

Loc: Southern California
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: mmalik]
      #6357665 - 02/05/14 12:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Having recently sold my entire system...




That caught my attention Michael; was it LX850 and how did it pan out if you can sum up in one sentence since I have not kept up on that chapter? Unless you mean something else. Regards




No I meant the LX850. Time to move on.


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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: tazer]
      #6357667 - 02/05/14 12:54 PM

Quote:

The Mach1GTO is rated by AP at 45lbs, so wouldn't the 50% rule would put the AP payload at 22.5lbs? I don't know if it's been established to be able to carry a higher weight for AP use or not, but their rating for the mount has the caveat "Remember also that imaging requirements are more rigid than visual observation."




Astro-Physics is extremely conservative with their capacity recommendations. If they say that the Mach1 will handle 45lb, it will do so for imaging and with ease.

I have a CGE that is rated for 60lb, and the Mach1 is substantially more stable.


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Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #6357684 - 02/05/14 01:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

IMHO the real disruptive mount today is 10Micron.




BINGO - ain't that the truth! It is likely to change my purchasing decision on the high end.




Wait what? But don't you have an LX850? What is "high end" if not the LX850? What would the 10-micron offer that is an improvement? Are you planning on going with a 20" CDK?





Yes I have the LX850 and it is a wonderful mount/system/optics! Top notch, the real deal and people ignoring this mount for this range are really missing out. It works 100% as advertised and then some. It won't post process your pictures for you, and you do have think a bit, but it is as close to turnkey for imaging as you can get out of the box. I love it!

Yes, I am adding a few more systems to the inventory for other uses beyond the limits of the LX850. Likely a few 0.5 m class or larger. Probably 2-4 LX600s initially, more LX850s, and then a number of 10 Micron larger based systems. We are sorting that all out. I am also looking at a light weight precision mount/system for the field and going remote. LX850 is not that light.


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calypsob
sage
*****

Reged: 04/20/13

Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6357703 - 02/05/14 01:15 PM

I think ioptron quality control may take a long time to catch up with AP. however it is not necessarily the quality of the mount that could push ioptron beyond the astrophotography capabilities of an AP mach 1, but rather the innovation and design of the z-mount that will drive superiority if it functions the way it is supposed to. T

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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: calypsob]
      #6357775 - 02/05/14 01:59 PM

Seriously... we are comparing a brand new, unproven, mass-produced, Chinese-made mount to a long time well-regarded, high-end, hand-made American mount?

Why is this even a question?

Buy the Mach 1. I've seen this thing in person and in action and it is a work of art that you will never be dissatisfied with. This goes well beyond PE numbers and conservative weight limits. It is pure high-quality fabrication, backed by superior customer service, a vast catalog of high-end accessories and a large and very happy user base.

From what I have read and seen of the new CEM60, it looks on par with most mid to high-end range Chinese mass market mounts. It will probably be good, but it very probably will NOT come close to the performance and frustration free experience of an Astro-Physics, 10 Micron or Software Bisque mount.

And being in the same price range as the Mach 1, this is a no-brainer decision to me.


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Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: WesC]
      #6357783 - 02/05/14 02:02 PM

Quote:

Seriously... we are comparing a brand new, unproven, mass-produced, Chinese-made mount to a long time well-regarded, high-end, hand-made American mount?

...




Yes we are. Funny isn't it, lol.

It must be a really long, cold dark winter here in the United States!



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Whichwayisnorth
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/04/11

Loc: Southern California
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: WesC]
      #6357796 - 02/05/14 02:10 PM

Quote:



And being in the same price range as the Mach 1, this is a no-brainer decision to me.




I agreed with everything you said until this last sentence. The Mach1GTO runs about $5K (mount only) and as high as $6K for all the extras on the *USED* market.

While I fully endorse the idea of getting the Mach1GTO and also buying used, I would also say you get what you pay for. If a brand new iOptron CEM60 is 1K less than a used (if you can find it) Mach1GTO, that may be the difference for some people.

Now we just need to see 1) how production units of the CEM60 perform? 2) How do they hold up over time?

IF iOptron can keep the price low and offer a mount that holds up well enough to be of good value on the second hand market in 5 years, then they will put a dent in the sales of their competitors mounts.

Never pay to be a beta tester. A lesson I learned the hard way. Let early adopters work the bugs out and revisit in a year.


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6357802 - 02/05/14 02:15 PM

Quote:


Yes we are. Funny isn't it, lol.

It must be a really long, cold dark winter here in the United States!







I really is. I've been out twice in the last 2 months. So sad.


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tazer
super member


Reged: 12/22/11

Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6357826 - 02/05/14 02:28 PM

Quote:

d being in the same price range as the Mach 1, this is a no-brainer decision to me.




The Mach1 is $1,500 more than the CEM60EC which is a 23% increase in cost (not negligible for those on a tight budget, of which I am one.) Assuming the CEM60EC lives up to its advertised specs/performance/price then what does that extra $1,500 for an AP mount get you?

I'm not questioning AP's products but honestly looking for an answer as to the added value of that extra expenditure.


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #6357828 - 02/05/14 02:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:



And being in the same price range as the Mach 1, this is a no-brainer decision to me.




I agreed with everything you said until this last sentence. The Mach1GTO runs about $5K (mount only) and as high as $6K for all the extras on the *USED* market.

While I fully endorse the idea of getting the Mach1GTO and also buying used, I would also say you get what you pay for. If a brand new iOptron CEM60 is 1K less than a used (if you can find it) Mach1GTO, that may be the difference for some people.

Now we just need to see 1) how production units of the CEM60 perform? 2) How do they hold up over time?

IF iOptron can keep the price low and offer a mount that holds up well enough to be of good value on the second hand market in 5 years, then they will put a dent in the sales of their competitors mounts.

Never pay to be a beta tester. A lesson I learned the hard way. Let early adopters work the bugs out and revisit in a year.





Good points and great advice. I was basing that remark on the $4500 Mach 1 rig I saw used on Astromart last month (that was quickly snatched up, BTW).

That being said I still strongly believe it is well worth the extra cost, even at $6350.


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rkayakr
sage
*****

Reged: 10/27/10

Loc: Northeast Ohio
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6357830 - 02/05/14 02:31 PM

Quote:



Yes we are. Funny isn't it, lol.

It must be a really long, cold dark winter here in the United States!






Yes - freezing rain, followed by 6" of snow, followed by more freezing rain, here today with a forecast of a plunge back down toward zero in the next few days and staying there for a week.

It's good to warm your hands by a nice, cracking ventilation about gear.


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: rkayakr]
      #6357833 - 02/05/14 02:34 PM

LOL!.. and I didn't do my weather fortunes any favors buy upgrading my CGEM with ADM parts the other night!

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tazer
super member


Reged: 12/22/11

Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: Whichwayisnorth]
      #6357840 - 02/05/14 02:38 PM

Quote:

IF iOptron can keep the price low...




I emailed iOptron a couple of weeks ago and the mounts were supposed to ship in January but were delayed due to problems with the worm manufacturer. They rejected about 20% of the initial batch and about 90% of the second batch. They indicated that they would stand by their advertised PE specs and pricing.

If they don't then that will cause a number of people to recalculate their next mount purchase.


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: tazer]
      #6357915 - 02/05/14 03:23 PM

Whoa... 90% rejection!? That is so not good.

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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: ??? iOptron CEM60 or Save for an AP Mach1GTO ??? new [Re: tazer]
      #6357981 - 02/05/14 03:55 PM

Quote:

The Mach1 is $1,500 more than the CEM60EC which is a 23% increase in cost (not negligible for those on a tight budget, of which I am one.) Assuming the CEM60EC lives up to its advertised specs/performance/price then what does that extra $1,500 for an AP mount get you?




This is a genuinely hard question to answer.

Speaking for myself, I imaged with Celestron mounts for 15 years. In that time, I feel like I got everything out of them that I could. I learned their quirks. I figured out how to make them work well. I even reached a state of full automation on one of my CGEs. I was a happy and satisfied customer.

...Or at least I thought I was.

Eventually, I got an Astro-Physics mount. After just a couple of nights out with it, I was slapping myself in the forehead and wondering why I didn't by an AP mount years in the beginning. I could have actually saved money when you account for all the stuff I tried while getting everything I could get out of the Celestron mounts.

The thing is, that I *needed* the experience of the Celestron (and I also tried Meade) mounts in order to fully appreciate the AP mount.

Note that, at all times, the Celestron mounts were living up to their specs. It's just that all the little things *mattered* with the Celestron mounts. You know all those settings you can play with in the guider software? Well, they actually changed the effectiveness of guiding with the Celestron mounts. Balance mattered. Sometimes different conditions would call for tweaking those things.

With the AP mount, those things just don't matter any more. Longer or shorter guide exposures? It doesn't matter. Setting the correct minimum and maximum correction amounts? Doesn't matter. Tweaking the aggressiveness? Doesn't matter. Changing the guide rate? Doesn't matter. Balance slightly east heavy? Doesn't matter. A breezy night? Doesn't matter. The AP mount just works. All the time.

And beyond the quality of the hardware, you would be hard pressed to match the service and support from Astro-Physics. They are interacting with their customers every day. We all know their owners and staff by name, not because we need their help, but because they're fully engaged in the community all the time.

Here's a short story from just this week. The owner of an AP refractor took his scope to do outreach with some high school students. While the scope was there, some of the kids vandalized the scope by peeling off some of the logo from the tube. While he was telling this story (with pictures) on the user group, one of the owners of AP jumped and said not to worry about it; that they'd take care of him. Without his even asking, they sent him a replacement for the vandalized part.

I've also seen them help customers with products 20 years out of production (not always for free, of course). When you buy an Astro-Physics product, you buy it for life.

It will be cool to see how the CEM60 fares when it comes out. From what I hear, the iOptron guys are innovative and responsive to their customers. I wish them all the best. And who knows, it's possible that the CEM60 hits a home run and owns its market segment. But you'd be betting the long shot to assume that they'll match the ownership experience of an AP mount.

And just to keep this at least a little bit on topic, here's my suggestion to the OP: The CEM60 looks like a very interesting option, especially with the encoders. If you enjoy being an early adopter and doing some level of troubleshooting, I say go for it. If, on the other hand, you want a product to just work, then you have two choices: Buy the Mach1 now, or wait for the CEM60 to get a year or so in the market. After that time, we will know if these two mounts should be compared to each other at all.

As always, this is just my two cents,
-Wade


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