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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6360079 - 02/06/14 04:11 PM

Quote:


As for having both encoders and direct drive; can you find a mount that has direct drive and no encoders?

/per




Why on earth would you want something like that ? All ASA mounts have both direct drive and very high resolution encoders (way better than 10Micron ) + absolutely fantastic software. It's a combination very difficult to beat.


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6360087 - 02/06/14 04:15 PM

Quote:

GIR, I think you have to cool down a bit. I didn't forget the ASA mount per se as everyone knows that they are "the" direct drive mount company right now. I didn't mention EQ8 either, in its own right a modern low price blow to the market.

I mentioned Skyvision because I think most people haven't heard of it. Simple as that. And it shouldn't go on the list because it is way too expensive.

So, please stop bashing now.

/p




Per, I think it should be you to cool down a bit ...and there is no bashing on anything just trying to put things straight.


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mmalik
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6360092 - 02/06/14 04:17 PM

Quote:

Also curious even the CGEPro is not in the table.




No big secret, just a startup list. GEPro isn't on the list just like iEQ30/45 aren't; focus being NEWer technologies (AVX being on the list). May get added to the list in due time; and folks are free to add/make their own lists, open and free discussion. Will chime in on LX850, it has a class of its own. Regards


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: GIR]
      #6360093 - 02/06/14 04:18 PM

Yes, that was my whole point: you cannot make a direct drive mount without encoders on the shafts.

And yes, I know that ASA's Renishaws are 67 Mticks encoders and 10Micron uses encoders with only 12 Mticks, but this thread was not about that, nor does it make the one mount five times better.

/p


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6360100 - 02/06/14 04:21 PM

Just read my post again and realize that it doesn't campaign for anything.

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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6360101 - 02/06/14 04:21 PM

Quote:

Yes, that was my whole point: you cannot make a direct drive mount without encoders on the shafts.

/p




Encoders on the shafts ?


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: GIR]
      #6360105 - 02/06/14 04:24 PM

Yes, a pretty good place to have them so that they can feed data back to the software controlling the motor. But perhaps "axii" is a better English term. Not native English speaking, unfortunately.

/p

Edited by Per Frejvall (02/06/14 04:25 PM)


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Tonk
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6360134 - 02/06/14 04:38 PM

For the GM1000HPS, the "?" in the PEC column of your table - is "A-PEC" - automatic PEC (it trains itself via the encoders - the end user doesn't do training runs)

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mmalik
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6360135 - 02/06/14 04:40 PM

Quote:

...put "Absolute, 12Mticks" on the GM1000HPS.




Done; first post updated! Regards


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Spacetravelerx
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360136 - 02/06/14 04:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Also curious even the CGEPro is not in the table.




No big secret, just a startup list. GEPro isn't on the list just like iEQ30/45 aren't; focus being NEWer technologies (AVX being on the list). May get added to the list in due time; and folks are free to add/make their own lists, open and free discussion. Will chime in on LX850, it has a class of its own. Regards




True, the AVX is very innovative compared to the LX850, and the LX850 should be in its own cubby.

Mach1GTO should not be on your list if you are ignoring legacy, current mounts. Maybe instead include the A-P 1100 instead.

Still, a bit confusing on the table. Once I am done with my travels I will create a mount table myself.


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mmalik
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6360169 - 02/06/14 05:02 PM

Quote:

...curious how the LX850 is not on your table




LX850 added to the list in the first post. Regards


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mmalik
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Tonk]
      #6360175 - 02/06/14 05:05 PM

Quote:

For the GM1000HPS, the "?" in the PEC column of your table - is "A-PEC" - automatic PEC (it trains itself via the encounters - the end user doesn't do training runs)




Thanks Tony; first post updated. Regards


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mmalik
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6360209 - 02/06/14 05:18 PM

Quote:

Mach1GTO should not be on your list if you are ignoring legacy, current mounts. Maybe instead include the A-P 1100 instead.




Mach1 will need to stay for a while just for reference sake; I have added 1100GTO. Regards


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mmalik
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360219 - 02/06/14 05:23 PM

Folks while discussion can continue, I'll add Avalon, Mesu, ASA, etc. to the list in due time. Regards

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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360247 - 02/06/14 05:36 PM

Direct drive is the mount inevitability. It's too spendy now, but will be THE way to produce a very good mount. Once the cost comes down out of the stratosphere, mounts in the CGE Pro/LX850/Losmandy Titan class will become extinct and before that, AP, Bisque, etc will have to abandon the worm gear for high torque motors and absolute encoders.

Replacing mounts like the Atlas won't happen anytime soon as I doubt that direct drive will be that inexpensive, but eventually, it'll happen.

It is an exciting time!

David


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MikeBOKC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/10/10

Loc: Oklahoma City, OK
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6360258 - 02/06/14 05:39 PM

If you are going to discuss a mount revolution I think you have to include the go-to Dobsonians Orion has made mainstream.

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mmalik
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360268 - 02/06/14 05:43 PM

Given the trend, nothing you buy today, no matter how expensive, is NOT going to last long before getting obsolete or getting superseded; at least that's how I look at it. This aspect in itself should be an incentive for not investing life savings in a mount and should be an important factor for manufacturers to bring the prices down so more of such units could be sold while raking in same profits that otherwise would have been brought in selling very few very expensive ones. And putting quality and technology (e.g., encoders) in lower priced mounts, no matter how contradictory it may sound, is the secret to achieving that goal. I think such change has already begun. Your thoughts?

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360372 - 02/06/14 06:29 PM

Quote:

Given the trend, nothing you buy today, no matter how expensive, is NOT going to last long before getting obsolete or getting superseded; at least that's how I look at it. This aspect in itself should be an incentive for not investing life savings in a mount and should be an important factor for manufacturers to bring the prices down so more of such units could be sold while raking in same profits that otherwise would have been brought in selling very few very expensive ones. And putting quality and technology (e.g., encoders) in lower priced mounts, no matter how contradictory it may sound, is the secret to achieving that goal. I think such change has already begun. Your thoughts?




The problem is that assumes that the manufacturers, particularly the premium manufacturers, have significant profit margins that they could lower to sell more units. The reality is that most manufacturers of astronomy equipment do not have significant profit margins. In fact, a fair number could probably not survive if their only business was mount manufacturing, or even mount and telescope manufacturing. A significant number of premium mount manufacturers have other primary businesses that bring in far more profit then mount manufacturing ever would. Right off, Losmandy, 10Micron and Avalon are good examples of this. Many others are very limited in size and production capacity because they have no other profit centers upon which they can rely. We benefit from some of these company's ability to produce premium equipment because of their existing design and manufacturing expertise and the fact that they do not need to sell their astronomy products with huge profits because those parts of their businesses are not primary profit centers. The same is true for many small astronomy businesses that produce high quality products where the owner has another daytime job.

I know of no manufacturer making large profit margins on astronomy equipment, particularly when man hours, machinery time and overhead are taken into consideration. I know of some who make very little profit but continue to provide their products because of a love of the hobby. I also know of no one who wouldn't gladly reduce their prices if there were already enough margin to do so and it was obvious that doing so would increase their market share. The only things that can really bring down the costs are mass production (not going to happen with premium equipment), new manufacturing techniques, cheaper materials (which is certainly not the current trend especially when you look at aluminum), and cheaper components (less expensive drive systems, encoders and other off-the-shelf components). Most of these constraints limit the low end of prices for non-premium equipment as well which is easily seen in the cost difference between the CG-5 and the AVX as an example. You can be pretty sure that the profit margin has not significantly, if at all, increased with the newer mount.


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nodalpoint
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/03/13

Loc: FEMA camp
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360377 - 02/06/14 06:31 PM

Quote:

Your thoughts?




Sure, use whatcha got and don't worry too much about whatcha ain't got!


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Mkofski
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/19/11

Loc: Greenfield, Indiana, USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6360446 - 02/06/14 07:08 PM

I think that any list of mounts that offer innovative features should be 3 list... Low end, medium prices and high priced mounts. Low end mounts aren't going to include encoders or other expensive tech but can still be innovative in design. At this time the only innovative low end mounts are coming from iOptron.

If the LX80 had met its specs even 80% could have been an innovative low end mount. With the computer advancement over the last decade, there is no reason a low end mount couldn't do more and do it better now than 10 years ago. If the LX80 supported some of the features of the 850, like an optional StarLock, that would be innovative. I see the desire to maintain compatibility with older hand controllers but functionality of the software would go a long way to making a mount more desirable.

The LX850 seems like an example of a medium priced mount that has software innovations that helped integrate existing hardware. Both Meade and Celestron have done some innovative things with software but haven't gone very far yet.

I don't know anything about high end mounts and won't ever own one. I'll leave that discussion for others.


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